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Assassin's Creed: Origin's Depiction of Cleopatra

I wonder if the game will depict Cleopatra bathing in milk or even
semen
?

Also, where does that weird idea of Cleopatra bathing in a white liquid come from?
 

Majukun

Member
history has made her the prototype of the seductress, so of course she is gonna be good looking for today's standards If you make an adaptation.. despite the fact that the beauty standards were different in that age and that probably most how her charm came from being an actual woman of power in an age where they simply did not exist or were rare as white flies.

also, if they decided to depict her as a seductress in the story of the game too, it makes perfect sense to adapt her beauty to today's standards, since otherwise there would be a dissonance that, while historically accurate, would take people out of the story.

also, as a character designer your objective is generally to make something aesthetically pleasing to the eye
 

jett

D-Member
First time seeing Cleopatra in the game.

I'm really indifferent to this situation. Let the developers make their own interpretation. I can't say I look to AssCreed for historical accuracy.
 

Vintage

Member
Animus lets you relive memories of your ancestors, meaning you see world as they remember. In their eyes, based on their beauty standard, Cleopatra was beautiful.

Animus than translates everything to modern standards.

Animus is really the best plot device ever.
 

Darklor01

Might need to stop sniffing glue
First time seeing Cleopatra in the game.

I'm really indifferent to this situation. Let the developers make their own interpretation. I can't say I look to AssCreed for historical accuracy.

Same. If Hollywood actors/actresses can make a real life counter-part look attractive when they're not, what do I care if the creators/artists for this game do it.
 

Lutherian

Member
asterixco06.jpg
 

Harlequin

Member
history has made her the prototype of the seductress, so of course she is gonna be good looking for today's standards If you make an adaptation.. despite the fact that the beauty standards were different in that age and that probably most how her charm came from being an actual woman of power in an age where they simply did not exist or were rare as white flies.

also, if they decided to depict her as a seductress in the story of the game too, it makes perfect sense to adapt her beauty to today's standards, since otherwise there would be a dissonance that, while historically accurate, would take people out of the story.

also, as a character designer your objective is generally to make something aesthetically pleasing to the eye

I think I'd be less up in arms about it if it were just the Egyptian hair and costume or just the inaccurate physical appearance but the combination of both just really bothers me.

And I also get that I'm in the minority and most people don't give a fuck but well, I can't help but feel the way I do.
 
Don't worry, the Animus automatically portrays people to the modern concept of beauty for mass market appeal. It isn't Ubisoft's fault, it's Abstergo!

...Or dEdSeC!
 

Lucreto

Member
I am sure there is some artistic licence but most of the characters are historically accurate.

In fairness to them there is not a lot to go on. There are a few coins and a few busts that may or may not be her.

Most others historical figures have lots of different references and we can get a pretty reasonable approximation of what they looked like. I am sure it's harder to get a face from someone who lived over 2000 years ago in an empire in decline than other historic figures.
 
Assassins Creed does not make historically accurate games. They make fantasy games set during fictionalized historical periods.

Their depictions of every historical person has been wrong, since the first Assassins Creed game and up through this one. Guess what, none of the Popes depicted as the bad guys from Assassins Creed 2 series were sniveling, dastardly cowards sacrificing human meat for the pursuit of power (that isn't to say Rodrigo Borgia was a good guy, but just that their characters are heavily fictionalized and based on the popular presentation of them in media, not historical accuracy). They typically take the popular recreations that pop-media has given us over the last couple centuries of books, television, and movies. Borgia, in the Assasins Creed 2 series, is presented as a sprightly kniving, fresh faced evil-looking pope because that's how Borgia was represented in films from the 1950s-1970s. Most recently, BOrgia was played by Jeremy Irons, a much thinner, older, politically-machinated character, and I'm sure if Assassins Creed 2 were made after Irons' presentation, that Borgia would follow that characterization.

Cleopatra as the exotic Mediterranean beauty who woos Greek and Roman royalty is the pop-media characterization of Cleopatra, and Assassins Creed is carrying that tradition through. She's typically been played by Westerners in media, going back to the 30s and 40s, and so our popular recollection of her is different than how she probably was, and our tastes today are different than what a person's tastes would have been 2000 years ago. If this exotic beauty is presented as someone who is not exotically beautiful to contemporary players of the videogame, then you lose some of the motivation for the character.

Beyond that, Assassins Creed has the out that these are (generally) the shared memories of the characters in the story, going back through their shared, technologically reconstructed DNA. In past games, especially the Pirates games, they've reconstructed parts of towns and islands that didn't exist at the time that the story was set, but they cleverly (or cheaply) explain it away as "this is part of the collective re-imagination of this area." One that stuck out to me was from Black Flag where the knowledge database explains it away as "This monument wouldn't be built for another 30 years...... but it was just too cool to leave out of the simulation." If buildings, islands, and entire family lines can be made up so that they construct a better 'simulated memory,' then it stands to reason a character could represent our collective memory, and not necessarily be an accurate representation of what she may have actually looked like, dressed like, or acted like. At least, Assassins Creed has done that with all of their characters before.
 
history has made her the prototype of the seductress, so of course she is gonna be good looking for today's standards If you make an adaptation.. despite the fact that the beauty standards were different in that age and that probably most how her charm came from being an actual woman of power in an age where they simply did not exist or were rare as white flies.

also, if they decided to depict her as a seductress in the story of the game too, it makes perfect sense to adapt her beauty to today's standards, since otherwise there would be a dissonance that, while historically accurate, would take people out of the story.

also, as a character designer your objective is generally to make something aesthetically pleasing to the eye

The recently released trailer definitely plays up that aspect of her, but not in a way that makes her not seem powerful.

Also, that is surprisingly one of AC's best gameplay trailers.
 

True Fire

Member
There is nothing wrong with this. I don't think a rough sketch in a coin is a very good reference of her appearance. We have no idea what she looked like, so any depiction is artistic liberty.

Now, if they transformed a spider demon into an attractive woman, I'd be raising a fuss.
 

Bishop89

Member
There is nothing wrong with this. I don't think a rough sketch in a coin is a very good reference of her appearance. We have no idea what she looked like, so any depiction is artistic liberty.

Now, if they transformed a spider demon into an attractive woman, I'd be raising a fuss.

I have been seeing this a lot. What is this in reference to?
 
You know what. I went to see a movie called Wonder Woman and the actress who played her wasn't even Greek. OH THE HORROR. I could have cried my eyes out but instead I went in and watched the movie and had a great time.

Historical movies regularly take artistic license in story, character, facts and actors to make a successful movie - accuracy is not the priority. The Assassin's Creed games are so great in bringing to life historical eras and showing us faces from the past. But these games with magic and time travel (of a sort) are not intended to be history books, they are entertainment as such there is no need to make every detail factually correct.

Wonder Woman is a fictional character.
 
while we do not know for sure what Cleopatra VII looked like
/thread

Why should the developers be beholden to some coins and busts that may or may not have been minted/sculpted during Cleopatra's lifetime and that may never have been an accurate representation in the first place?

Also, bear in mind that this is a game where everyone in Ancient Egypt speaks English, so your complaints about Cleopatra being too pretty will rightfully be dismissed as nitpicking as there are clearly bigger fish to fry in the historical accuracy/tourism department.
 

TheKeyPit

Banned
/thread

Why should the developers be beholden to some coins and busts that may or may not have been minted/sculpted during Cleopatra's lifetime and that may never have been an accurate representation in the first place?

Also, bear in mind that this is a game where everyone in Ancient Egypt speaks English, so your complaints about Cleopatra being too pretty will rightfully be dismissed as nitpicking as there are clearly bigger fish to fry in the historical accuracy/tourism department.
That's because of the Animus.
 

M52B28

Banned
god damn, thread finished before it even started.
No, it is not. That image doesn't provide anything to the discussion that the OP is trying to get at. Yes, we know it's not related to true history, etc, but that doesn't mean that it can't try to be, at least, somewhat accurate to what is in history.

What is being mentioned is the whitewashing and westernizing of Egyptian and African history. The lack melamine is biologically inaccurate for a woman like Cleopatra in Africa, her nose, as mentioned, is likely wider and so on.

Once again, this discussion isn't over due to that disclaimer, this is something very prevalent in history books, and now, gaming.
 
I mean... if you're going to go after a video game for something like this, Civilization makes a lot more sense as a "target" than AC games, don't you think OP?

gieGtE2.png

Civ 6 came out almost a year ago, AC is in two months and just dropped some new trailers which place the historical figure in question in central importance to the plot, and the game's marketing. It's clearly a point prompted by a specific instance, not just a subject they've been waiting to discuss. Even if it was, they went with a game that has a much more immediate relevance.
 

Oppo

Member
No, it is not. That image doesn't provide anything to the discussion that the OP is trying to get at. Yes, we know it's not related to true history, etc, but that doesn't mean that it can't try to be, at least, somewhat accurate to what is in history.

What is being mentioned is the whitewashing and westernizing of Egyptian and African history. The lack melamine is biologically inaccurate for a woman like Cleopatra in Africa, her nose, as mentioned, is likely wider and so on.

Once again, this discussion isn't over due to that disclaimer, this is something very prevalent in history books, and now, gaming.

But the disclaimer essentially says "this isn't realistic nor is it trying to be".

I get the argument about beauty norms but they weren't trying for realism, simple as.

JonnyDBrit said:
Civ 6 came out almost a year ago, AC is in two months and just dropped some new trailers which place the historical figure in question in central importance to the plot, and the game's marketing. It's clearly a point prompted by a specific instance, not just a subject they've been waiting to discuss. Even if it was, they went with a game that has a much more immediate relevance.
So what? One is definitely trying to invoke actual history, and one is making a pastiche. Both are very recent games, I don't take your point.
 

Sami+

Member
"I don't like how this famous Egyptian historical figure doesn't really look Egyptian"
"lol shut up and have some fun OP"
 
But the disclaimer essentially says "this isn't realistic nor is it trying to be".

I get the argument about beauty norms but they weren't trying for realism, simple as.


So what? One is definitely trying to invoke actual history, and one is making a pastiche. Both are very recent games, I don't take your point.

Aside of the point that such disclaimers haven't necessarily made movies immune from criticism when similarly 'inspired' by historical events...

I'm not sure which games you're trying to refer to in what order, given your apparent view on how seriously this game - that is, Assassin's Creed Origins - should be taken. Otherwise, my point was in explaining the OP's choice and ultimately why it makes sense in the context of time frame. This wasn't made as a discussion of depictions of Cleopatra in video games/fiction in general - though the OP does touch on that - and even if it was that wouldn't somehow mean one couldn't discuss it anyway alongside depictions as in Civ 6.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
The modern myth about Cleopatra as some supernaturally attractive woman was probably too much to ignore, especially in videogames, where there's a baseline level of ridiculous attractiveness to begin with. She's at least not as ridiculously sexed up as she could be by videogame standards. Only a random belly button window!

As for the fashion, you're right, but 90% of the player base is not aware of the Greek heritage of the Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt at this time, and are coming to the game looking for a feel of Egyptiness, more than actual accuracy.
 

jph139

Member
So what? One is definitely trying to invoke actual history, and one is making a pastiche. Both are very recent games, I don't take your point.

I think I'd cut more slack to the one where the 5000 year old immortal Cleopatra leads her army of fundamentalists Buddhists to rain nuclear hellfire on the united front of Teddy Roosevelt and Qin Shi Huang.

As opposed to the one, in theory, trying to present her as a fully-formed human being with depth in the specific context of Ptolemaic Egypt.
 

Wulfram

Member
The pictures presented in the OP mostly convince me that we don't have any real idea what Cleopatra looked like, because they don't really look similar to each other.

As for clothing, Cleopatra seems to have identified herself more with Egypt than her predecessors, learning Egyptian and identifying herself with Isis, so maybe her wearing Egyptian clothes makes sense? At least some of the time.
 

Harlequin

Member
The modern myth about Cleopatra as some supernaturally attractive woman was probably too much to ignore, especially in videogames, where there's a baseline level of ridiculous attractiveness to begin with. She's at least not as ridiculously sexed up as she could be by videogame standards. Only a random belly button window!

As for the fashion, you're right, but 90% of the player base is not aware of the Greek heritage of the Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt at this time, and are coming to the game looking for a feel of Egyptiness, more than actual accuracy.

I do get your point but that didn't stop them from having Ptolemaic soldiers in Greek armour everywhere in the game (and featuring them prominently in the gameplay demos they're using to promote it). If they can explain that to the players, I'm sure they'll be able to explain Cleopatra wearing Greek garments. I mean, the two are pretty much directly linked.
 
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