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Do you consider web developers or coders in general engineers?

Not to derail, but faulty software has absolutely caused deaths and disasters. A software engineer can hold as many lives in their hands as a bridge engineer. A bug in the Therac-25 radiation therapy machine caused it to occasionally fry people with a radiation megadose, killing at least three.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25
 
After getting my Master's in Software Engineering, I think the term engineer is applied too loosely. What I learned in my studies is a far cry from what I do at work.

I would not call myself an engineer at the moment, and I primarily architect solutions to very complicated problems on our backend.

Not to derail, but faulty software has absolutely caused deaths and disasters. A software engineer can hold as many lives in their hands as a bridge engineer. A bug in the Therac-25 radiation therapy machine caused it to occasionally fry people with a radiation megadose, killing at least three.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

Absolutely. Had an entire section of my degree related to this. We had an exercise in particular in which we analyzed software that distributed time-released drugs in a hospital that could easily overdose the patient if not handled correctly.
 

Saganator

Member
I think it depends on the complexity of the stuff they work on. Like if you just write scripts here and there, you're not an engineer. But if you play a key role in designing and or creating the architecture of a complex piece of software, you're an engineer.
 

LosDaddie

Banned
That's the whole point I made this thread. Is how the engineer title is given to anyone these days. If your job involves any tech then you are an engineer. I find it silly.

While I would agree the title "Engineer" is overused, like someone else said, in the end it doesn't matter. Only your experience and credentials matter. That's what will land you a job.



This is the thing that needs to be discussed.
Can a CS major take the FE?

In FL (best state 🇺🇸), you can. In fact, almost anyone can take the FE...if they feel like paying $225 for the exam. The NCEES doesn't really care. They are simply a testing body.

However, if you want your EIT license, then yes, you need to have your BS degree from an accredited college.
 
I agree with you. I think the term engineer is one of prestige, maybe not to the degree of a doctor to most, but still. I feel there are certainly software engineers out there, but the vast majority who title themselves as such could probably live with something more apt like software developer in what they actually do from day to day if they set aside their pride. As competitive as the hiring market can be in the tech sector, employers do their own marketing with the whole "I'll make you sound more important than you are" or "we're so cool and hip we're going to call you a ninja or unicorn". It does muddy up and cheapen the term engineer, as there are companies that are looking for true engineers and suddenly you have a code monkey who's been titled a software engineer in his last job thinking that he can handle it.

I guess when I think of engineering in classical terms, I think of someone building and maintaining something tangible and often complex. These days we can apply that same mentality to software, but let's be honest – unless you are actively planning, or seeing the big picture and trekking into undocumented territory, you're most likely just a software/web/backend/frontend developer, similar to construction workers as far as being task oriented and putting the pieces into their right places. Okay, maybe a little bit more than construction workers in that regard, but certainly no engineer.

The college I'm at you can do a Bachelor or Master in computer science or engineering in the exact same amount of time, so I don't see how one warrants more prestige than the other.

"Just software developers" can do things with complexity that put engineers to shame. Or not. It entirely depends on what they're actually doing.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Not to derail, but faulty software has absolutely caused deaths and disasters. A software engineer can hold as many lives in their hands as a bridge engineer. A bug in the Therac-25 radiation therapy machine caused it to occasionally fry people with a radiation megadose, killing at least three.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

Just to be clear though this isn't something licensing would fix. It's development and release process issues that lead to these kinds of errors.
 

Appleman

Member
I have an Engineering degree and my iron ring but I write front end mobile software and would not call my current job "Engineering".
 
Anyone remember that time they just ported software for a new rocket from an older model to save a couple hundred thousands dollar in testing and the rocket crashed seconds after starting, leading to millions in losses

Now someone tell me if development errors can have real life consequences or even get dangerous
 

LosDaddie

Banned
There's a software engineer PE exam.

Correct.

There are 2 types of PE exams for EEs; Power (which I took & passed) and Computer/Software.

But really, there's nothing holding back an EE from taking the Mechanical (or whatever discipline) PE exam, or vice versa. We have a senior PE in my office who took both electrical and mechanical PE exams, and signs & seals both disciplines on his projects. He told me he took the electrical PE exam just to prove to himself he could do it, even though it's not required.
 

prophetvx

Member
I work in the industry.

There are two very distinct types of software developers, those who can problem solve and those who do what they're told. The former I would classify as engineers, the latter I would not.

Engineering requires planning and thought, many in IT don't possess that capability and do more data entry than anything else.
 

vypek

Member
Sure, I think they can be engineers.

I usually tell people I'm a developer although my in-company job title is Software Engineer
 
At my office we've figured out a way around these issues. We just tell people "we do computer work" and then do a typing motion with our hands.
 

Hopeford

Member
At my office we've figured out a way around these issues. We just tell people "we do computer work" and then do a typing motion with our hands.

Similarly with me, only sometimes swapping computer work with "computery shit" if the setting is more casual.
 

OceanBlue

Member
I think it depends on the complexity of the stuff they work on. Like if you just write scripts here and there, you're not an engineer. But if you play a key role in designing and or creating the architecture of a complex piece of software, you're an engineer.
I think the funny thing about this is that, in my experience, full stack developers are more likely to work on the architecture of a software system than programmers at large engineering companies. For example, I work for a government contractor doing simulation software. We basically recreate a lot of pretty technical devices like planes in software, but most developers here spend more time worrying about technical specifications than software architecture. Much of the stuff we do is basically scripting. I don't know if I'd consider myself as an engineer but we do as much engineering as some of the other positions titled engineers here.
 

neerg

Member
Ive been with my company 22 years.

In my time there I've been junior programmer, Programmer, senior programmer, Analyst programmer, senior analyst programmer, development consultant, development manager.

With the exception of development manager, it was all the same job.

For what it's worth if I had to choose a name that fit my career most, it would have been software engineer. Which is what my uni course was called. Software engineering.

Pure front end web developer... nah, I don't think I would call that a software engineer, and it's not what I advertise for when I need one.
 

finalflame

Member
People trying to append some overly important meaning to the title "Software Engineer" are kidding themselves.

Software Engineer, Software Developer, Developer, Programmer, all are used interchangeably. Get over it.
 
I'm more concerned that people ask me to fix their computer problems because they think I study to "work in IT".

If I can endure people not even acknowledging me as developer, engineers can endure some developers doing not that complex work calling themselves engineers.
 
To be serious for a second, I wouldn't be particular mad at pure front end developers calling themselves engineers, because they very well might have the needed skills to work in more complex jobs. Depends of course.

If you consider someone working with AI a software engineer as you stated in your OP, every 5th semester studying general computer science knows the basics of it. At least at my college. It has a bit more nuance than that, I think.
 

neerg

Member
People trying to append some overly important meaning to the title "Software Engineer" are kidding themselves.

Software Engineer, Software Developer, Developer, Programmer, all are used interchangeably. Get over it.

The problem comes when the usage is not standardised. when I advertise for a programmer today, the skill set is not as broad as when I advertise for a software engineer. But when I first got the job here a programmer was expected to do more and I would have agreed the term was interchangeable.

So not always interchangeable, and depends on company/country I guess.
 

6.8

Member
I'm not a web developer but I'm a developer. I'm not an engineer even if I have an engineering degree because I don't pay the license.
 

finalflame

Member
Web developers? No

Lol, fuck right off with this holier-than-thou bullshit. Being a competent web developer and being a competent developer in any other area is a matter of where you apply your problem-solving skills, even if you're referring to front-end devs. There are shitty developers everywhere, not just webdev.
 

Newline

Member
Lol, fuck right off with this holier-than-thou bullshit. Being a competent web developer and being a competent developer in any other area is a matter of where you apply your problem-solving skills, even if you're referring to front-end devs. There are shitty developers everywhere, not just webdev.
Exactly this. I'd ask anyone to go and try out canva and then say that was created by so called 'web developers'. Specific problems are met my specific needs, tech doesn't discriminate.
 
In Texas, you either need a license or be under direct supervision of a licensed engineer to call yourself one.

That companies get away with it is a fault of enforcement, not the spirit of the law.

Oh no disagreement. That's why i don't have a business card with engineer on it. But again if the job is not in the public sector what do you ask for in the job req? Electrical Engineer in training with 20+ years experience?
 
1. I suspect this misnaming of job titles is not as severe as you seem to think.

2. I also suspect those "Web Developers" deal with backend processes and interacting systems much more than you realize.

3. Agile methodology wants people to be able to work the full stack, one day they are working front end, the other day they are working the backend. Getting hired just for HTML or Javascript is going to go away soon.

1. Well, my hot take is that it is a mechanism of paying more for a worker. You don't find it odd some kid out of college is instantly an engineer?

2. See below.

3. I kind of see where you are going. However, look at the other side, I work in a group where that is all separated. Web only handles web code back end handles back end code. See two separate groups.... paid less -_-
 
Even back-end? Server side applications can be very complex and have to be carefully planned.
Seriously.

I've been doing Architecture/DB/Services/Logic/Integrations for the web and maintaining and migrating our code bases for over 20 years. Every project has its own challenges, and projects have taken anywhere from a day to a year for me to roll out. Services and third party integrations especially require a lot of forethought in the design process and adherence to strict contracts and protocols.

"Web Developer" is a very small word for the universe of possible projects out there.
 
I'm a software developer and I think OP's comment is totally germane. Most web developers are nowhere near the competency expected of someone called an engineer in other fields. It's a terribly overused title in software.

My only problem with any of this is: the mentioned web developers notwithstanding, are you saying that no one you know who is a programmer/coder deserves to be called an engineer?

*High-fives.
I'm a software engineer (not that it's really relevant to the conversation) and I'm honestly not offended at all when someone refers to me as a developer or "coder". I work in the defense industry, where the line between developer and engineer (the hardware and software variety mind you) gets MIGHTY blurry.

I agree 100% that it's an overused title, but that wasn't the statement made. We're getting into semantics here, but it was stated that "web developers or coders in general" don't deserve to be called engineers. Even if I give OP some credit, and assume he's only referring to web-developers or developers involved in "creating websites" I still have to disagree. If you've ever worked with a back-end billing system you would have to agree that there is a certain amount of engineering that goes into these complex billing and banking systems.

This is probably the crux of my argument, but let's use PSN or Xbox live as an example. Maybe HBO? Amazon? Which of all those developers involved in creating such a service can call themselves real engineers based on the OP's criteria?
 

Brakke

Banned
Sometimes "engineer" applies to software development but not always, and probably not often. "Real" engineers are held to standards of accountability and expertise and certification that devs usually aren't.

You can't be a patent agent with just a Computer Science degree. You're not engineer enough in that context.
 
The definition of engineer is someone who designs and builds machines or structures. If you can lead a major software project, you're an engineer. I don't know anyone who cares about that title, though.
 

Brakke

Banned
What if I can program one?

The funny thing here is that very many devs couldn't program a trebuchet, tons of undergrad programs don't require studying physics or differential equations or really much of the math you'd need to build the simulation.
 

Slo

Member
Real engineers have to maintain a license.

Software Engineering is hard and true SEs have the same engineering mentality as EEs and MEs, but don't have to jump through the hoops. It's not as hard to get the title.

Programmers are just tradesmen.
 

leroidys

Member
As one, absolutely not. And I work at a place that does some pretty hardcore backend server and data storage architecture. Even the most brilliant people here do not follow the proper protocols and use the proper tools to do the job correctly like a real engineer would, but default to their own brilliance and the state machine they have in their head. Real engineers are precise, follow best practices, and use the right tools for the job.

I would write a lot more, but I'm on mobile.
 

Sapiens

Member
If you're a web developer that can't grasp oop and only uses Drupal, you're nothing but a web developer.

There's a lot of those.
 
Why does the term matter?

My official title is software engineer, but who cares? I certainly don't. You could call me software developer instead and it wouldn't make any difference at all to my life.

In the end, I will be judged by the work I do, not by my title.
 
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