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Mass Effect 3 PC Gamer Details [Up3: Four Demos At E3, 30+ Minute Livestream]
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Fimbulvetr
Member
TruePrime said:
Or the Zelda, and Final Fantasy fandoms in general.
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
Kinyou said:
Hard to argue with that.
Dacon said:
Didn't say it wasn't bad. However until I see Mac or whatever his name is called the Anit Christ, people saying they want him dead so he can't touch their series or the fact he some how ruins things the man has almost no part of and zero control over then Mass Effect, and Bioware fans aren't as bad as some of the FF Zealots with their seething hatred of Nomura.
Orellio said:Apparently I'm the only one who agrees with thisME2 is infinitely more playable than ME1, but it's at the expense of doing anything interesting or novel.
No, I agree as well. IMO, ME1 is one of the few instances where the sum is greater than the individual parts. Immersion is key for any RPG and while ME1 stumbled throughout many of the major aspects of the game design, it did manage to nail the immersion much better IMO. Despite longer load times, the decision to mask the loads with elevators, the Normandy's decon chamber, and use in game assets for the Mako's landing helped to keep the player in the game world. ME2 managed to solve the offensive load times but takes the player to equally offensive mission complete and loading screens which continually remind the player that they are in a game while also breaking up the flow of the game. Little details like this definitely needed tweaking (aka learning how to use your engine so there isn't a 30 second loadtime to the bottom level of the Normandy), but didn't need to be thrown out entirely.
To me, ME is about the universe, the characters, the story, and the gamplay in that order. ME1 had poor shooter mechanics and honestly ME2 (while much better than ME1) was still far behind the staples of the TPS genre (GeoW and Uncharted). Improving the combat definitely made ME2 a more playable game, but when the story takes a noticeable hit in terms of quality, the universe sees numerous retcons, and much of the immersive nature of the first game is lost, some of the magic from the first game is lost (IMO).
Its also important to remember that most of this is coming from the hypercritical lense of a superfan and that both ME1 and ME2 are great games in their own rights. I guess it all comes down to what aspect of game design is important to you when enjoying a game.
Dacon
Banned
Me2 is definitely better than the first game in terms of gameplay, but in comparison its missing a lot of heart and soul imo. The game just feels empty. I often felt like I was being funneled through linear tubes(insert FFXIII joke here).
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind linearity. The problem arises when the game fails to draw me in enough for me to not even notice the linearity, much less care about it.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind linearity. The problem arises when the game fails to draw me in enough for me to not even notice the linearity, much less care about it.
Ickman3400
Banned
Grisby said:
That would mean something if characters were > story in a rpg but they're not.
Instead we run pointless errands for squad mates that have nothing to do with the story and what we had to do. I'd be fine with that if they were relegated as side missions and not 90% of ME2.
graywolf323
Member
TruePrime said:
I love both FFVII and FFVI >_>
Confidence Man
Member
ThoseDeafMutes said:
Sorry, but no. Cover system was better in 1, much quicker and snappier getting in and out of cover. Poor controls? They control exactly the same. First time I've ever heard about geometry glitches. And the combat was far and away superior in the first game. No moronic global cooldown, biotics weren't given second-class status, tech mines, more ammo types available to everyone, more abilities for Shepard, waaaaay more abilities for squad members, just far more flexibility and variety in general.
Dacon said:
But the original mass effect was linear too and did the copy pasta job of Dragon Age. I also found Mass Effects world to be very barren and lifeless outside of the gorgeous planet sky boxes.
ME2 though accomplished more by having smaller areas. I felt more immersion stepping on Illium or Omega then any planet in Mass Effect.
Ickman3400
Banned
TruePrime said:
I don't know how you could logically disagree with that. Story is everything in a story driven RPG which is what Bioware does...or used to.
Rahxephon91
Banned
Characters are an important part of an rpg and they have always been Bioware's strength. It seems silly to me to not want any attention to them. Why play a Bioware game if all you want is plot?
Thagomizer
Member
Ickman3400 said:
It's difficult to care about a story, though, when one doesn't identify with or doesn't care about the characters involved in it, whereas even a mediocre story can be buoyed by good characters
Dacon
Banned
Grisby said:
I thought I made my point about the linearity not being the real issue clear.
Yes a lot of ME1's worlds that you explored for resources and items were barren. But for the most part the main missions had some pretty good design work and memorable locales that were pretty big.
Illium and Omega are pretty barren themselves if you can look past all of the superficial elements. They just have some pretty design. Ultimately I didn't feel like I had stepped outside of the box at all.
Story, however you can't section off what happens with Liara, Garrus, Legion, Miranda or any of the others and say that isn't story.Ickman3400 said:
It's still story, it just revolves around the characters and not the main plot line. There is no reason that a person can't enjoy the character based stuff over the main plot line.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Because they're the "story driven" half of the Bioware-Bethesda duality? There aren't nearly enough story driven WRPG devs out there, or really enough WRPG devs at all.Rahxephon91 said:
I don't understand how you can mark down the second game for being empty when the majority, the majority, of ME1's content is recycled environments and encounters. You know what breaks my immersion? When every fucking planet I go to looks exactly the same and every building on said planet is exactly the same as the one before it.
Most of this was garbage, but really? Really!? I guess you must've glitched through Noveria so you didn't have to fight Benezia, since a large portion of players will regale you with tales about immediately being piledrived through the wall or floor at the very beginning of the battle. I'm sure my experience in this, and falling through a planet's geometry was all just a figment of my imagination.
Most of this was garbage, but really? Really!? I guess you must've glitched through Noveria so you didn't have to fight Benezia, since a large portion of players will regale you with tales about immediately being piledrived through the wall or floor at the very beginning of the battle. I'm sure my experience in this, and falling through a planet's geometry was all just a figment of my imagination.
Ickman3400
Banned
TruePrime said:
What happened to Liara was sectioned off into a comic book and it was concluded with paid DLC. If it was all in the base game it would have been acceptable since the shadow broker ties into bigger things.
Garrus and Miranda just got betrayed by meaningless people. Boo hoo. Who is Sidonis or Miranda's dad to the plot of the series? Nobody. They are supposed to be side missions only and not the meat of the game.
It's ok for side quests to be the meat of a Bethesda game because they don't do story. It's not ok for Bioware who's the direct opposite.
Ickman3400 said:
Once again that is your opinion. Frankly it doesn't matter what you think is worthy of being story be it for side quests or main, it's still story.
And at least for me, those Boo Hoo side stories kicked the shit out of the boring main plot line in either Mass Effect 1 or 2 so I much rather see them continue to build 3 around the characters then the Vs Reaper/Cerberus nonsense.
Confidence Man
Member
Gestahl said:
I've never been piledriven through the floor at the beginning of the Benezia fight, and I've played the game to hell and back both on 360 and PC.
Let me ask you this, have you ever been stuck on a piece of elevated geometry in Mass Effect 2? Because that's happened to me three times so far in a playthrough I started a few days ago.
Ickman3400
Banned
TruePrime said:
That's such a gigantic load of bullshit. There's a massive difference between side quest "stories" and the main fucking plot :lol
Of course there is, however, what stops someone from liking one more then the other?Ickman3400 said:
You act like someone can't enjoy Mass Effect 2 based on the Character storylines and that Mass Effect 1 is supierior because it's story is handled so much better.
I like the story lines in ME2, and I think the story in Mass Effect 1 is a load of shit, how is that wrong?
If you were even remotely involved in discussing Mass Effect in the past two years, it would've come up, lucky you for dodging the bullet I guess.
Yeah, in ME2 I'm deathly afraid of corners, but here's the thing. In ME2, the autosave system is actually, you know, an autosave system, and not some random bullshit where it'll autosave every 2 hours, so it's pretty easy to ignore, even if it is another egregious case of Bioware being Bioware. What's not easy to ignore is losing an hour or more of progress or time because the game decided to shit the bed and deposit you into the black void of coding, or back to the autosave, not realizing that the game is LYING to you about its autosave feature on your first run through the game or a future run where you forget this fact.
Yeah, in ME2 I'm deathly afraid of corners, but here's the thing. In ME2, the autosave system is actually, you know, an autosave system, and not some random bullshit where it'll autosave every 2 hours, so it's pretty easy to ignore, even if it is another egregious case of Bioware being Bioware. What's not easy to ignore is losing an hour or more of progress or time because the game decided to shit the bed and deposit you into the black void of coding, or back to the autosave, not realizing that the game is LYING to you about its autosave feature on your first run through the game or a future run where you forget this fact.
Nappuccino
Member
TruePrime said:
its not so much that there is something wrong with liking the side stories in me2. The problem is that there is practically no main story in me2. It just sputters around a bit and then ends.
Confidence Man said:
That ME2 glitch is one of the worst glitches I have ever come across because it happens frequently, without warning, and requires you to either die or restart the game (which is unacceptable for any game). The worst part is it has been known since the game launched and Bioware hasn't released any patch to try and combat it.
ThusZarathustra
Member
Plotting, themes, structure, and attempts at metaphorical resonance will always carry greater weight than character. This cannot be argued, except by morons who will simply say "Yeah, well that's just your opinion, man."
Nappuccino said:
This is very true, and it's a shame. But I found it forgivable when the bulk of the game's content was at least unique, and in some cases more interesting than the main locations of ME1. The character's loyalty quests, be it on Tuchanka or the Flotilla, also added to the existing world building efforts of the previous games by showing, instead of telling most of the time.
Fimbulvetr
Member
That fact that some of you guys are separating characters from story in the fist place is pretty baffling since characters are part of a story.
The problem with nearly every ME2 character(even the best ones) is that they only loosely tie into the other aspects of the story. They don't even really seem to care, which actually subtracts from them as characters.
This is also a problem with the claim that "it's okay because ME2's story is just centered around its characters" even though, in order for a character-based story to work, they still have to be tied into the plot or at least have some sort of stake in what's happening, and they have to develop along with the plot(or the circumstances surrounding or relating to it) rather than getting development because you talked to them until they decide to blather on about their dark and brooding pasts.
The problem with nearly every ME2 character(even the best ones) is that they only loosely tie into the other aspects of the story. They don't even really seem to care, which actually subtracts from them as characters.
This is also a problem with the claim that "it's okay because ME2's story is just centered around its characters" even though, in order for a character-based story to work, they still have to be tied into the plot or at least have some sort of stake in what's happening, and they have to develop along with the plot(or the circumstances surrounding or relating to it) rather than getting development because you talked to them until they decide to blather on about their dark and brooding pasts.
Rahxephon91
Banned
Characters and there lack of tie in to ME has been a pretty big problem. I never cared if I let Wrex die because his death has no baring on the actual plot, making the choices regarding the characters feel unimportant. That's a problem that Bioware dosen't really seem to address.
Edit-Well maybe 3 will.
Edit-Well maybe 3 will.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Rahxephon91 said:
Yeah this was a problem with ME1 too.
Liara was the only one who cared about the whole Reaper problem, and even then it was only because she wanted to know more of the Protheans.
Nirolak said:
Good.
IoCaster said:
Kill it with rockets.
AcceptableGhost
Member
Mass Effect 1 had absolutely abysmal combat, level design taken straight out of KOTOR, terrible inventory / ui, mediocre optimization, the bad kind of snap to cover system ("kinda snaps sometimes"), significant balancing issues, and of course the mako vehicle. It was an abysmal gameplay experience no matter what else was in the game. I almost never played ME2 because of how bad ME1 was. I am glad I did because ME2 is pretty much an instant classic.
All ME2 needed was maybe a bit more RPG mechanic character building. I don't even consider ME2 to be an RPG mechanically, I have seen straight shooters with more RPG stuff (RE4 / Dead Space equipment upgrading has more impact gameplay wise then most anything you do in ME2).
I don't understand the hate of focus on side stuff / characters either. The main plot of the Mass Effect franchise is pretty cookie cutter.
All ME2 needed was maybe a bit more RPG mechanic character building. I don't even consider ME2 to be an RPG mechanically, I have seen straight shooters with more RPG stuff (RE4 / Dead Space equipment upgrading has more impact gameplay wise then most anything you do in ME2).
I don't understand the hate of focus on side stuff / characters either. The main plot of the Mass Effect franchise is pretty cookie cutter.
ColonelColon
Member
Rahxephon91 said:
But Wrex's story was connected to the main plot of Mass Effect. Tensions between Wrex and Shepard arose precisely because of the circumstances of the mission on Virmire, in which Shepard and his crew aim to destroy Saren's genophage research facility.
Ickman3400
Banned
So is "war effort" going to be the new buzzword Bioware uses mercilessly until release?
It sounds good on paper but many ideas do. Excuse my lack of faith in Bioware until they can prove to me that they can pull it off.
It sounds good on paper but many ideas do. Excuse my lack of faith in Bioware until they can prove to me that they can pull it off.
IoCaster
Member
Nirolak said:
EA/BroWare said:
Kind of like the suicide mission and how absurdly difficult it was to fail. You literally have to make a very concerted effort and go for every imaginable fuck-up version of your decision making to even come close to getting the worst outcome. They're telegraphing the number of workarounds and fail-safes they've engineered into the plot to keep the dudebro crowd from realizing the depths of their stupidity. Oh, joy!
Rahxephon91
Banned
I did'nt say the characters don't have connections, but that dosen't mean those connections have an actual effect on the plot. For the most part the plot goes the same way regardless if Wrex is dead or not.ColonelColon said:
Kitschkraft
Member
Including the character recruitment missions as part of the ME2 story is probably the correct thing to do. Bioware did make loyalty a main "feature" (Don't let me start on how shallow this loyalty aspect was) of the game and it's outcome actually does have an affect on...the last 30 seconds or so of the game (And NOTHING else...lol). It makes sense to include this, but it doesn't really help it's case as being in any way critically comparable to ME1. In fact, it hurts it quite a bit. It just goes to show how loose ME2 was as a "story". God, it's just all over the place. The reason people are even arguing over WHAT exactly is ME2's story is because half the game feels like some huge detour.
ME1, with all it's flaws, had a pretty tight main storyline. The fact that you're essentially just retracing Sarens steps leaves no room for *pointless* detours, as everywhere you go is important to unlocking the secret about the reapers.
ME1, with all it's flaws, had a pretty tight main storyline. The fact that you're essentially just retracing Sarens steps leaves no room for *pointless* detours, as everywhere you go is important to unlocking the secret about the reapers.