• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Dutch Company Claims it Owns No Man's Sky World Generation Formula [they don't]

B

BRocknRolla

Member
Elandyll said:
With a quick look, it appears that the superformula is already used in applications out there including GNU ones?

Wouldn't Genicap have to explain why they did not go after every single application (free or not) of the superformula out there before getting on Hello Games' case ?(hence why companies often defend their IP even in the case of fan art/ nonprofit use).
Click to expand...

This is an idea behind Trademarks, not patents.

Not to call you out specifically, but there's a lot of Jr. detective work going on in this thread in regard to patent law. This is one of those areas where the complexity is great enough that people probably shouldn't be doing "quick googles" to explain how all this works.
 
DeepEnigma

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Wulfram said:
What's dubious about seeking to enforce a patent you own on a thing you invented?
Click to expand...

They are not seeking to 'enforce', otherwise they would go through the legal process.

They appear to want to sneak a look at Hello Game's code, because they supposedly are developing a game as well.

Like someone said, they are hoping for 'tit for tat'.

It may be altered so much that it is not resembling their patent anymore for all we know.
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
Even if it is not patent-able, it could be considered a trade secret and violation by means of unfair competition or practice. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about either areas of law.

Here is an example of a US statute on the subject. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1832

(a) Whoever, with intent to convert a trade secret, that is related to a product or service used in or intended for use in interstate or foreign commerce, to the economic benefit of anyone other than the owner thereof, and intending or knowing that the offense will, injure any owner of that trade secret, knowingly—
(1) steals, or without authorization appropriates, takes, carries away, or conceals, or by fraud, artifice, or deception obtains such information;
(2) without authorization copies, duplicates, sketches, draws, photographs, downloads, uploads, alters, destroys, photocopies, replicates, transmits, delivers, sends, mails, communicates, or conveys such information;
(3) receives, buys, or possesses such information, knowing the same to have been stolen or appropriated, obtained, or converted without authorization;
(4) attempts to commit any offense described in paragraphs (1) through (3); or
(5) conspires with one or more other persons to commit any offense described in paragraphs (1) through (3), and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy,
shall, except as provided in subsection (b), be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.
(b) Any organization that commits any offense described in subsection (a) shall be fined not more than $5,000,000.
Click to expand...
 
P

ps3ud0

Member
In hindsight you kinda wish you never said things like 'super formula' and the like. The patents system is obviously broken, but thats the rules you have be aware of...

ps3ud0 8)
 
B

BRocknRolla

Member
Mobius and pet octopus said:
Even if it is not patent-able, it could be considered a trade secret and violation by means of unfair competition or practice. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about either areas of law.

Here is an example of a US statute on the subject. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1832
Click to expand...

Handy Fake said:
Is it a secret if it's published?
Click to expand...

Trade secrets != patents. Trade secrets means no one knows what you're doing and it's therefore protected from someone literally trying to steal the information from you if you're protecting it. Patents are public and give you an exclusive right to use something for a period of time. Something public cannot be a trade secret.

Mobius and pet octopus said:
What do you mean by published? Like implemented into a game's code? I dunno.
Click to expand...

Publishing the game doesn't necessarily mean you lose the trade secret IF you're protecting the information being used therein with enough effort. If the code is just in a text file, then no Trade Secret. If you have to break multiple levels of security, you may be in trouble. That said, I'm not well read and all the precedent here, so maybe in some locations, publishing software has been found to break the claim regardless.

It's like Coke's formula. It's a trade secret and remains despite the fact that you could chemically analyze the constituent parts of the drink and try to replicate it. Doing that still wouldn't give you the formula. Breaking into their lab would though, and you'd have trade secret laws to get you additional restitution for lost sales beyond the actual crime of theft.
 
Handy Fake

Handy Fake

Member
BRocknRolla said:
Trade secrets != patents. Trade secrets means no one knows what you're doing and it's therefore protected from someone literally trying to steal the information from you if you're protecting it. Patents are public and give you an exclusive right to use something for a period of time. Something public cannot be a trade secret.
Click to expand...

http://www.amjbot.org/content/90/3/333.full

Was submitted and published in The American Journal of Botany.
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
BRocknRolla said:
Trade secrets != patents. Trade secrets means no one knows what you're doing and it's therefore protected from someone literally trying to steal the information from you if you're protecting it. Patents are public and give you an exclusive right to use something for a period of time. Something public cannot be a trade secret.
Click to expand...

I know a little bit about trade secrets and I know that statement is not entirely true.

(3) the term “trade secret” means all forms and types of financial, business, scientific, technical, economic, or engineering information, including patterns, plans, compilations, program devices, formulas, designs, prototypes, methods, techniques, processes, procedures, programs, or codes, whether tangible or intangible, and whether or how stored, compiled, or memorialized physically, electronically, graphically, photographically, or in writing if—
(A) the owner thereof has taken reasonable measures to keep such information secret; and
(B) the information derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable through proper means by, the public; and
Click to expand...
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1839

There is no requirement the information not be public. Imagine someone just revealing the trade secret and arguing it is no longer a secret any longer therefore he did not steal a trade secret.

This says they only need take reasonable measures to keep the information secret.
 
W

Wulfram

Member
DeepEnigma said:
They are not seeking to 'enforce', otherwise they would go through the legal process.

They appear to want to sneak a look at Hello Game's code, because they supposedly are developing a game as well.

Like someone said, they are hoping for 'tit for tat'.

It may be altered so much that it is not resembling their patent anymore for all we know.
Click to expand...

They appear to be trying to approach in a friendly manner, in order to negotiate a license, rather than immediately reaching for the lawyers and shutting things down. I don't think this is unreasonable

Maybe their patent doesn't apply, I'm certainly no lawyer, but when the developers have made it clear that the guy's work is pretty important to a central part of their game, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they'd be entitled to some money.
 
B

BRocknRolla

Member
Handy Fake said:
http://www.amjbot.org/content/90/3/333.full

Was submitted and published in The American Journal of Botany.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to read the paper as to how that relates. Perhaps you could offer a tldr? I'm interested.

Mobius and pet octopus said:
I know a little bit about trade secrets and I know that statement is not entirely true.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1839

There is no requirement the information not be public. Imagine someone just revealing the trade secret and arguing it is no longer a secret any longer therefore he did not steal a trade secret.

This says they only need take reasonable measures to keep the information secret.
Click to expand...

What you've described backs up exactly what I said. You need to reasonably protect it to have a trade secret, but bringing a claim is about restitution when someone takes it unlawfully from you.

But that's just it; once it's out, the trade secret it gone. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle. You do get to sue the person that released the information in the first place though. But the information is out, so you can't keep enforcing your trade secret on anyone who tries to use it because it's no longer hidden. And if it was never actually public to the point where you could keep protecting it, your restitution for the original claim is likely going to be very limited.

Edit: Going back to work now, but I'll chime back in later if I can add anything meaningful.
 
M

mordecaii83

Member
BRocknRolla said:
I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to read the paper as to how that relates. Perhaps you could offer a tldr? I'm interested.
Click to expand...

That link is a published article by Johan Gielis where he talks about the superformula and even shows exactly what the formula is, as well as describes how it works and how he came up with it.
 
P

ps3ud0

Member
Wulfram said:
They appear to be trying to approach in a friendly manner, in order to negotiate a license, rather than immediately reaching for the lawyers and shutting things down. I don't think this is unreasonable

Maybe their patent doesn't apply, I'm certainly no lawyer, but when the developers have made it clear that the guy's work is pretty important to a central part of their game, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they'd be entitled to some money.
Click to expand...
Think you are being a bit naive, no one wants to shut anything down as that makes no one money. Genicap want to license it either as a mutual agreement/contract or via the courts.

EDIT: Sorry that comes over dismissive, Im just saying that the nicely-nicely approach is the normal stance in these kinds of negotiations.

ps3ud0 8)
 
B

BRocknRolla

Member
mordecaii83 said:
That link is a published article by Johan Gielis where he talks about the superformula and even shows exactly what the formula is, as well as describes how it works and how he came up with it.
Click to expand...

Got it. Weren't people saying this is a patent claim though? Therefore the trade secret requirements don't apply. Further, patents require public disclosure, so they necessarily have to be different things.
 
Handy Fake

Handy Fake

Member
BRocknRolla said:
I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to read the paper as to how that relates. Perhaps you could offer a tldr? I'm interested.
Click to expand...

Alas I'm supposed to be working, the most I can offer is Google trawling and a line in pithy comments, with the odd meme thrown in. ;)

mordecaii83 said:
That link is a published article by Johan Gielis where he talks about the superformula and even shows exactly what the formula is, as well as describes how it works and how he came up with it.
Click to expand...

Cheers m'dear.
 
D

daveo42

Banned
BRocknRolla said:
Got it. Weren't people saying this is a patent claim though? Therefore the trade secret requirements don't apply. Further, patents require public disclosure, so they necessarily have to be different things.
Click to expand...

Patent claim is on the use of the formula in a graphical medium, not a patent on the formula itself.
 
Raven77

Raven77

Member
Wait so they are claiming that he used their super formula.

He confirmed in an interview in February that he used "the super formula"...

So, did he use it without their permission or didn't he???
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
BRocknRolla said:
I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to read the paper as to how that relates. Perhaps you could offer a tldr? I'm interested.



What you've described backs up exactly what I said. You need to reasonably protect it to have a trade secret, but bringing a claim is about restitution when someone takes it unlawfully from you.

But that's just it; once it's out, the trade secret it gone. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle. You do get to sue the person that released the information in the first place though. But the information is out, so you can't keep enforcing your trade secret on anyone who tries to use it because it's no longer hidden. And if it was never actually public to the point where you could keep protecting it, your restitution for the original claim is likely going to be very limited.

Edit: Going back to work now, but I'll chime back in later if I can add anything meaningful.
Click to expand...

I think there is a distinction between something publicly available and readily known to the public. For example, a game is out in the public but the game's code is not necessarily readily known to the public. In other words, even though you could reverse engineer a released game, it's still potentially covered by trade secret laws.
 
W

Wereroku

Member
Raven77 said:
Wait so they are claiming that he used their super formula.

He confirmed in an interview in February that he used "the super formula"...

So, did he use it without their permission or didn't he???
Click to expand...

Well you see the super formula is basically describing a natural phenomenon. It seems most countries don't allow ownership of a mathematical formula so as far as him using the formula there isn't really an ethical problem. The problem comes from whether the company is allowed to patent the process of using the formula in various fashions. Clearly this company believes they do have that right since they have applications in for various uses one of which is entertainment uses. So no he didn't get permission because he probably didn't realize he needed to.
 
Tal Shiar Agent

Tal Shiar Agent

Member
Andrew Evenstar said:
One of the most incorrect things I've read.

Either way, if they do own the formula, then No Man, No Sky.
Click to expand...
In the United States soft math (math that is impossible to do via "the functions of the mind", IE can only be done on a computer) cannot be patented or otherwise owned. It's in essence a part of nature. The sake way a biologist can't own a new species of worm he or she discovers, one cannot own a new math formula. So if this is challenged in a US Court the Dutch company will likely lose.

Wulfram said:
They appear to be trying to approach in a friendly manner, in order to negotiate a license, rather than immediately reaching for the lawyers and shutting things down. I don't think this is unreasonable

Maybe their patent doesn't apply, I'm certainly no lawyer, but when the developers have made it clear that the guy's work is pretty important to a central part of their game, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they'd be entitled to some money.
Click to expand...
Math is different. Math is a part of nature. A filmmaker doesn't owe a biologist money because he used the animal that the biologist discovered as the center of a film. Same applies to math. The Superformula is a derivative of the superellipse, a formula from the early 19th century that describes shapes thay exist in nature.
 
Handy Fake

Handy Fake

Member
SG-17 said:
In the United States soft math (math that is impossible to do via "the functions of the mind", IE can only be done on a computer) cannot be patented or otherwise owned. It's in essence a part of nature. The sake way a biologist can't own a new species of worm he or she discovers, one cannot own a new math formula. So if this is challenged in a US Court the Dutch company will likely lose.


Math is different. Math is a part of nature. A filmmaker doesn't owe a biologist money because he used the animal that the biologist discovered as the center of a film. Same applies to math. The Superformula is a derivative of the superellipse, a formula from the early 19th century that describes shapes thay exist in nature.
Click to expand...

Related to Mandelbrot?
 
B

BRocknRolla

Member
Mobius and pet octopus said:
I think there is a distinction between something publicly available and readily known to the public. For example, a game is out in the public but the game's code is not necessarily readily known to the public. In other words, even though you could reverse engineer a released game, it's still potentially covered by trade secret laws.
Click to expand...

See what I said above. I said that very thing. We're in agreement on this point.
 
Kamina

Kamina

Golden Boy
Yoshi said:
OK, but where is this backed? I don't see anything indicating that they don't own the [idea of using] the algorithm . Is this just about the technicality that you cannot patent the algorithm itself? Because that't quite picky and a bit unfair against the Dutch company.

@Handy Fake: I don't think it's applicable, we'd need Dutch law here, no?
Click to expand...
You can own the idea of using something? So I can file a patent of the idea of using a toilet so you cant use it anymore? Where do I file that, i want to sue someone?
 
B

BRocknRolla

Member
Mobius and pet octopus said:
I see now. You seemed to be saying that if it is public then it can't be a trade secret but I had missed one of your earlier posts.
Click to expand...

It's cool. Like I said, this stuff is complicated and has a lot of levels to it. I guarantee there's case law out there that would thrown additional interesting/frustrating curves at my explanation as well. I can only offer what I learned in law school and work experience thereafter. It's certainly an incomplete picture even with that background (Dutch patent law for example is a blind spot).
 
Handy Fake

Handy Fake

Member
Can I just say, as shitty as the whole situation is, I'm thoroughly enjoying this debate.

Carry on chaps and chapettes.
 
D

dragonbane

Member
Kamina said:
You can own the idea of using something? So I can file a patent of the idea of using a toilet so you cant use it anymore? Where do I file that, i want to sue someone?
Click to expand...
Maybe not that extreme, but there have been cases of some ridiculous patents where someone patented the idea of something and sometimes even just a single word and actually managed to legally enforce it and get some money out of it. Patent law is a joke. Case in point Hello Games already had to settle for using the word Sky in their title, since you know the word Sky is patented by Sky TV or something.
 
E

eyeball_kid

Member
Is patent law unified in the E.U., or is this solely a claim in the Netherlands?

I really don't understand the intricacies or know Dutch patent law at all, but there is so much prior art with the use of the superformula in computer graphics.
 
DeepEnigma

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
LookAtMeGo said:
Leave NMS alone!! Seriously. Everyone trying to get a piece of the pie.
Click to expand...

Wonder what a procedurally generated pie would taste like?

It can be either horrible, or the best damned thing one would have ever tasted.

eyeball_kid said:
Is patent law unified in the E.U., or is this solely a claim in the Netherlands?

I really don't understand the intricacies or know Dutch patent law at all, but there is so much prior art with the use of the superformula in computer graphics.
Click to expand...

Well, it would not matter at this point, the Brexit and all, lol.
 
L

Landford

Banned
Would be really shitty if this delays the game even further. Sean looked like the whole team was crushing very hard on his last appearances in the media.
 
C

ClearData

Member
If Genicap has a valid patent then it would make sense if they pursued some kind of negotiation before enforcement. But if I am following this thread correctly mathematical formulas and the programs derived from them are not patentable under law. It seems Genicap is interested in No Man's Sky's implementation of the super formula because they have a commercial interest in developing their own game, which makes their intent questionable. The timeline also feels odd. Murray commented on the use of the formula in February. With the game having gone gold and set to release in a few weeks then Genicap goes public with their requests? Are they trying to pressure the developers for the source code now that the game is complete and the programming more readily duplicable? At a time when release in imminent and legal delay could be ruinous for Hello Games.
 
T

TrojanBlade

Member
Being part of silicon valley, I have personally experienced blanket troll patents and the nuisance they cause. Unfortunately, that's what our lawyers do too to protect our products and write patents in ambiguous language to cover as much as possible.

I seriously hope this is resolved soon and game is not delayed any more. Hopefully these guys are not trolls and just want some sort of acknowledgement/licensing agreement.
 
Tal Shiar Agent

Tal Shiar Agent

Member
ClearData said:
If Genicap has a valid patent then it would make sense if they pursued some kind of negotiation before enforcement. But if I am following this thread correctly mathematical formulas and the programs derived from them are not patentable under law. It seems Genicap is interested in No Man's Sky's implementation of the super formula because they have a commercial interest in developing their own game, which makes their intent questionable. The timeline also feels odd. Murray commented on the use of the formula in February. With the game having gone gold and set to release in a few weeks then Genicap goes public with their requests? Are they trying to pressure the developers for the source code now that the game is complete and the programming more readily duplicable? At a time when release in imminent and legal delay could be ruinous for Hello Games.
Click to expand...
I'm not knowledgeable enough on EU law to know for sure, but the absolute most Genicap could do is get an injunction for release in the EU, likely only the Netherlands. But they likely wouldn't be able to get it in time anyway and they risk their patent by taking HG to court.
 
Shpeshal Nick

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
This claim would have had a touch more legitimacy if they hadn't decided to wait until weeks before launch to make it. It's not like this game has been hidden for the last 3 years.
 
C

Calabi

Member
It does seem kind of dumb that Hello games admitted to using the formula. Whether or not its legitimate and a bullshit patent, the evidence is pretty damning. Surely it should be an unwritten rule "never admit to using something of someone else's creation" especially in our litigious environment.
 
J

JoeyJungle

Banned
Sean Murray confirmed in an interview with Business Insider in February that the planetary system was generated by the superformula. Sparrow denies that any contact occured with the two companies. "We are in the process of creating a game based on the superformula. It would be great if we could trade knowledge with Hello Games. We tried to contact them but didn't get any response."
Click to expand...

Can anyone find this interview? I did a quick google, I couldn't find any interview with Sean Murray and Business Insider, let alone a specific interview from Feb 2016.
 
Tal Shiar Agent

Tal Shiar Agent

Member
Calabi said:
It does seem kind of dumb that Hello games admitted to using the formula. Whether or not its legitimate and a bullshit patent, the evidence is pretty damning. Surely it should be an unwritten rule "never admit to using something of someone else's creation" especially in our litigious environment.
Click to expand...
Except it's not a creation. It's a discovery. Hello Games had no reason to assume that anyone attempted to patent it. It's like if a filmmaker made a movie centered around a newly discovered species of bird. The person who discovered this new bird isn't entitled to anything from the filmmaker and can't own that bird.


The Superformula is a derivative of an existing formula that is a mathematical model of naturally formed shapes. As such it shouldn't be able to be patented in the first place.
 
W

Wulfram

Member
Collingwood said:
This claim would have had a touch more legitimacy if they hadn't decided to wait until weeks before launch to make it. It's not like this game has been hidden for the last 3 years.
Click to expand...

The fact that they're using the Superformula doesn't seem to have been public until relatively recently. And they do say they have been trying to contact Hello games directly, we don't know when they started.

Or possibly they may have been waiting until their most directly relevant patent - one about "generating naturalistic scenery on an amusement device" - got approved in the US, which happened in April. Its probably worth mentioning that that patent seems to have only been filed after NMS was announced, though they have earlier more general ones.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

[IGN] Sean Murray Says No Man's Sky Isn't Finished 'By a Long Shot'
2
66
4K
IbizaPocholo replied
The man who owes Nintendo $14m: Gary Bowser and gaming’s most infamous piracy case
2
85
4K
SHA replied
GVMERS - The FALL and RISE of No Man's Sky
Opinion Analysis Trailer
3
752
Impotaku replied
Outcast: A New Beginning | Review Thread + |OT|
|OT| Analysis Review 2
51
3K
Gordon Freeman replied
Hello Games’ Sean Murray on the studio’s next No Man’s Sky-sized game
Opinion Game Dev
45
3K
IbizaPocholo replied
Top Bottom