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Yoshinori Ono comments on Street Fighter 5 buttslap and related changes

Yeah, a goofy character like R.Mika slapping her ass makes people uncomfortable, but Cammy's high cut, sprayed on, thong leotard gets a pass? Those are some pretty selective people.

That's why this inclusivity thing from Ono kinda falls flat. If this is honestly the position they now have the logical thing is to permanently redo Cammy's design going forward, dump Chun Li's black dress alt, cover Laura's rear end, etc...

There's nothing wrong with looking sexy. Go out to certain spots and you'll see it all around. But an
arguably
sexual gesture is something else entirely.

I don't think you would ever tell someone not to dress sexy, but if they made a gesture towards you I bet you'd feel different. It's suggestive is a way that fashion is not.
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
There's nothing wrong with looking sexy. Go out to certain spots and you'll see it all around. But an
arguably
sexual gesture is something else entirely.

I don't think you would ever tell someone not to dress sexy, but if they made a gesture towards you I bet you'd feel different. It's suggestive is a way that fashion is not.
The opponent is still getting hers and her partner's ass literally rubbed in their face. And this is a fighting game, a provocative gesture is absolutely not out of place.
 

Summoner

Member
The problem here isn't the actual buttslap......it's how much of that butt is exposed. No woman wrestler, past or present has had their rear exposed like that. It would be considered normal at Brazilian beaches, but definitely not here. They should remove the G-String, and put back the bottom briefs she had in previous alliterations. That way they can keep the buttslap without the internet backlash.
 
Buttslap was already gif'd, so whatever man do what you want

AhaDKmT.gif

fuck that shit. at least they just cropped the camera. someone will mod it back in on pc.

adsdasads.jpg
 
This idea of games being censored is really stupid to begin with. People are allowed to say that they don't like a thing and companies are allowed to respond to that however they want.

Whether or not this is censorship (it's not) is completely irrelevant. Of course companies are allowed to do whatever they want.

When Spielberg swapped out guns for Walkie-Talkies and removed "offensive" language in ET, that wasn't a case of censorship either. Nobody was forcing him to do it, but it was a travesty that he made his project worse in an effort to appease those who were easily offended. ET received near universal praise, but a handful of people were very vocal about the supposed inappropriate content and Spielberg gave too much weight to their concerns. It was a shame. Even Spielberg himself now acknowledges that it was a mistake to edit the movie and promises that he won't do it again.

Companies have he right to water down their projects in order to avoid offending anyone. They've always had this right. Comic book publishers in the 1950s had this right too, and just look how that turned out for them. It's a shame that we're living in an environment where artists are walking on eggshells. An environment where you have to worry about people who are easily offended is not conducive to creativity.
 

Demoskinos

Member
The problem here isn't the actual buttslap......it's how much of that butt is exposed. No woman wrestler, past or present has had their rear exposed like that. It would be considered normal at Brazilian beaches, but definitely not here. They should remove the G-String, and put back the bottom briefs she had in previous alliterations. That way they can keep the buttslap without the internet backlash.

Her design is based off of Joshi style wrestling. And its not too far off the mark actually from what actual joshi wrestlers wear.
 

Draft

Member
The butt slap is harmless. Every woman character has huge tits spilling out of skin tight outfits. Put them all in gis and sports bras.
 

Akibared

Member
Pretty silly to edit when we still have that Chun alt and all the boob jiggle. Unless he plans to edit them too. o_o
 

Vlaphor

Member
Whenever I see arguments like "Go watch porn" or things like that, I'm reminded of when people say "Why do you care about this fanservice when actual women are being oppressed?".

It's a pointless argument that no bearing on the conversation and only exists because the person saying it didn't have an actual point to make. It's the internet, people know that porn exists and if simple titillation was their goal, then they wouldn't be on this forum.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
They must have some good numbers showing mass cancelled preorders following the Mika reveal.

Same drop is surely happening now after the Hot Chun Li reveal. Fix this, Capcom.
 
See, the thing you folks have to realize is that the natural result of this line of thinking isn't someone stopping to think, "oh, how silly of me to think about inclusivity there, we'd better restore everything we cut out"; it's for the team to go in and actually strip out all the other "sexy" content too. The goal they're trying to achieve here -- creating a product that's welcoming to the type of larger audience that exists nowadays -- is increasingly important to every large publisher, and it's not about to go away. If some basic steps aren't enough, pubs are going to start taking bigger ones.

In a case like this, it's a little awkward because we have a franchise and a team that's quite used to working in an older, less restrained style of development and content, suddenly realizing that this type of inclusivity push would be worthwhile for them and their employers. Something like hiding this butt slap isn't necessarily, on its own, a perfectly reasoned determination of the most effective/least destructive edit to address the problem; it's probably more of a guess, of looking at something that got some airplay and trying to act on it because it's visible. It doesn't really matter if, in a vacuum, this one change will bring in some specific subset of players; it's more about making a gesture towards inclusiveness, and positioning themselves to think about this sort of thing earlier in the process the next time around.



This is a deep and fundamental misunderstanding of what the creative process actually is.

Great post, if only people actually read and tried to understand the mod posts in these threads maybe we wouldn't have anymore 20 page threads of people saying "i want my butt slap back".
 
The problem here isn't the actual buttslap......it's how much of that butt is exposed. No woman wrestler, past or present has had their rear exposed like that. It would be considered normal at Brazilian beaches, but definitely not here. They should remove the G-String, and put back the bottom briefs she had in previous alliterations. That way they can keep the buttslap without the internet backlash.

You are wrong. There are women wrestlers who have had their asses exposed. Why does it even matter? Street Fighter is not real life. If we can accept people with green skin who channel electricity through their bodies, then it's a little bit ridiculous to complain about an outfit not being realistic.

The suggestion that R. Mika needs to wear more clothes is sad. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but "art by committee" poisons the creative process.
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
Whether or not this is censorship (it's not) is completely irrelevant. Of course companies are allowed to do whatever they want.

When Spielberg swapped out guns for Walkie-Talkies and removed "offensive" language in ET, that wasn't a case of censorship either. Nobody was forcing him to do it, but it was a travesty that he made his project worse in an effort to appease those who were easily offended. ET was received near universal praise, but a handful of people were very vocal about the supposed inappropriate content and Spielberg gave too much weight to their concerns. It was a shame. Even Spielberg himself now acknowledges that it was a mistake to edit the movie and promises that he won't do it again.

Companies have he right to water down their projects in order to avoid offending anyone. They've always had this right. Comic book publishers in the 1950s had this right too, and just look how that turned out for them. It's a shame that we're living in an environment where artists are walking on eggshells. An environment where you have to worry about people who are easily offended is not conducive to creativity.
Good post. These threads usually have a bunch of people arguing bullshit semantics about the specific term used distracting from the underlying problem.
 

dan2026

Member
If they didnt think the buttslap was appropriate, why did they put it in in the first place?

It feels like a company trying to baby us. Sorry this is not appropriate for you.

Fuck that.
 

Morinaga

Member
I think the response is a good one from Capcom.

Its a shame they feel they have to tone down a bit becuase of other peoples sensibilites.
 
The goal they're trying to achieve here -- creating a product that's welcoming to the type of larger audience that exists nowadays -- is increasingly important to every large publisher, and it's not about to go away. If some basic steps aren't enough, pubs are going to start taking bigger ones.

What's your opinion on Spielberg editing ET to remove guns and offensive language? These decisions were intended to make the movie more welcoming to more people. Do you think the changes were positive? I don't think they were positive changes. Spielberg doesn't think they were positive changes either, and he regrets letting criticism shape his art.

I have seen many cases in the past where artists have to restrain themselves in the name of inclusiveness. It stifles creativity. I think everyone understands Capcom's goal here. A lot of people think it's a dumb decision.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
What's your opinion on Spielberg editing ET to remove guns and offensive language? These decisions were intended to make the movie more welcoming to more people. Do you think the changes were positive? I don't think they were positive changes. Spielberg doesn't think they were positive changes either, and he regrets letting criticism shape his art.

I have seen many cases in the past where artists have to restrain themselves in the name of inclusiveness. It stifles creativity. I think everyone understands Capcom's goal here. A lot of people think it's a dumb decision.
There's some false equivalence here. Removing a butt slap doesn't have anything to do with removing guns. I'm sure Capcom's devs aren't sitting in their offices regretting that they had to slightly change their "art." Even more female sexualization in this industry isn't exactly creative either.
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
There's some false equivalence here. Removing a butt slap doesn't have anything to do with removing guns. I'm sure Capcom's devs aren't sitting in their offices regretting that they had to slightly change their "art." Even more female sexualization in this industry isn't exactly creative either.
Eden, the resident authority on art and creativity.
 

Arion

Member
Hot Ryu's pecks makes me feel uncomfortable. Pls remove capcom. /s

This really isn't a big deal for me. The game still has a ton of eye candy and ultimately Capcom wants to hit a balance with their game. Maybe for some internal folks the buttslap was a little too much so they removed it.
 

LiK

Member
people thinking everyone gets worked up over the buttslap is wrong. it's not sexual to me, it's a hilarious taunt that they removed because some people found it offensive. I bet if a male character did it, no one would even care.
 
There's some false equivalence here. Removing a butt slap doesn't have anything to do with removing guns. I'm sure Capcom's devs aren't sitting in their offices regretting that they had to slightly change their "art." Even more female sexualization in this industry isn't exactly creative either.
Your last point raises an excellent question. Why isn't it creative in gaming? Because it's normative? But can't you be creative by altering your take on normativity? Or is this more that this is perceived as sociologically problematic (i.e. Less related to the creative process but to its potential effects)?
 

Espada

Member
There's nothing wrong with looking sexy. Go out to certain spots and you'll see it all around. But an
arguably
sexual gesture is something else entirely.

I don't think you would ever tell someone not to dress sexy, but if they made a gesture towards you I bet you'd feel different. It's suggestive is a way that fashion is not.

My goodness, if a goofy ass slap from a comical character is being misconstrued as a sexual gesture we're doomed. When a character whose outfit is essentially spray painted on and is an inch away from exposing her genitals concerns people less than a 2 second slap in one of the goofiest supers in SF history, there is a problem. It's not even about male gaze because the camera doesn't linger and leer like it does in DOA5 for example.

I'm just saying that's a really low bar for what constitutes something worthy of cutting or editing, which means stuff like Hot Ryu, Chun Li's alt, etc... should never leave the drawing board. Which is a problem for creative output beyond the potentially sexy.
 

Kinyou

Member
There's some false equivalence here. Removing a butt slap doesn't have anything to do with removing guns. I'm sure Capcom's devs aren't sitting in their offices regretting that they had to slightly change their "art." Even more female sexualization in this industry isn't exactly creative either.
I'm not really sure why it's a false equivalence. As he said, both are done to make the content more inclusive. And at least whoever thought of that animation in the first place might be sad about seeing it go.
 
people thinking everyone gets worked up over the buttslap is wrong. it's not sexual to me, it's a hilarious taunt that they removed because some people found it offensive. I bet if a male character did it, no one would even care.

In popular media, male nudity is typically played up for laughs instead of being titilating, but that would still be a problem. I think the closest analog would be Joe Higashi's ass flash taunt and that hasn't been in a game for like 10 years.
 
There's some false equivalence here. Removing a butt slap doesn't have anything to do with removing guns. I'm sure Capcom's devs aren't sitting in their offices regretting that they had to slightly change their "art." Even more female sexualization in this industry isn't exactly creative either.

R. Mika's buttslap was removed in the name of making SFV more inclusive and in an effort to avoid offending anyone. Guns were removed from ET for the same reason. I agree that butts and guns aren't the same. The issue isn't only about butts. It's about removing content in an effort to make things more inclusive. The comparison is appropriate.

There is no reason to to put the word "art" in quotation marks, by the way.
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
In popular media, male nudity is typically played up for laughs instead of being titilating, but that would still be a problem. I think the closest analog would be Joe Higashi's ass flash taunt and that hasn't been in a game for like 10 years.
How is R. Mika not played up for laughs?
 

Kinyou

Member
And Europe....actually a decent amount of the Western world, name a country that isn't more concerned with sex over violence.
Germany rates a game like "Lula 3D" (look it up while not at work) as okay for 16 year olds but completely bans Condemned criminal origins
 

Makki

Member
The butt slap was a taunt, not a sexual move. It really makes no sense that you would want to cater to sensitivities only on that front and yet you feel its acceptable to show her ass all the same just not being slapped. Thats the line? Self smacking? But not ass assaulting during the critical art move? In what world is ass on face more acceptable than hand on ass?

Fighting games already are a niche, why cater to external sensitivities?
 

vg260

Member
Fighting games already are a niche, why cater to external sensitivities?

That's just the thing. Capcom is trying to grow SF to be bigger than a niche thing.

It is understandable that Capcom showed restraint, but it is a bit depressing to think that people would really be inconvenienced by the butt slap in a still very sexualised fighter... again a fighter where people hit each other... Hard. Just a short while ago we had a thread in the OT about the MMA fighter who won't be able to eat an apple for a few months... Yes this is cartoon fighting, but then it is also cartoon sexiness and partial nudity, shouldn't both be more acceptable or does the cartoon but only helps the violence bit?

Well, that's certainly a question for those possibly bothered by this to step back and analyze from a distance, but do you really think they're going to think about it that way? Heck, I'd love for people to take a step back and look more objectively at what offends them and why some of it may be silly or illogical, but people don't like to question what they instinctively think or have their beliefs or viewpoints questioned logically, and people are not suddenly going to be open to critical self-analysis within the window of this game's release. I certainly don't begrudge Capcom for trying to make changes to place their product to fall somewhere in the spectrum of what's currently considered acceptable to the biggest audience. It is a brand they're trying to grow and it would be unwise for them not to try to manage it if it hurts their intended appeal.

The people so feeble that a jokey buttslap makes them feel uncomfortable will still be uncomfortable with basically every female in this game. And your second sentence contradicts the entire reasoning given by Ono because he felt clearly some people were basing their decision on "a freaking butt slap animation."

Like it or not these "feeble" people as you put it exist and perhaps that's a problem then too if Capcom wants those people to get into their game as players or spectators or avoid having a negative stigma where people are uncomfortable playing their game around certain audiences. Do you really want this in if it potentially hurts the growth of this series (whether you agree with the reason or not)?

I would much rather there be less content that would be off-putting to viewers and/or players if it means the game would be healthier and more accepted over time, yet still be SF, because I love the series, and would like it to be more popular and widely accepted. If this silly and arguably non-offensive animation/costume being dialed back a bit helps that more than hurts it, without losing the identity of the series, which I don't think is happening here, then good for them.

I could see how one might think a game like MK removing all the gore, or DOA the swimsuits would change the identity of the product, but I really don't think this game is losing any of identity of what makes this SF by altering the animation. As someone who grew up with SF2, I feel safe this is not happening. If anything SFV is still way less conservative than it ever has been.
 

Goodstyle

Member
I honestly hate that this got so much attention. Mika is basically a trash character meant to pander to horny teenagers, so removing a butt slap doesn't change that. However, the fact that this got so much attention and outrage is definitely one of the lowest lows of the SF community, I swear.
 

Mega

Banned
R. Mika's buttslap was removed in the name of making SFV more inclusive and in an effort to avoid offending anyone. Guns were removed from ET for the same reason. I agree that butts and guns aren't the same. The issue isn't only about butts. It's about removing content in an effort to make things more inclusive. The comparison is appropriate.

There is no reason to to put the word "art" in quotation marks, by the way.

It's not a false equivalence at all so don't pay much attention to Eden's remark. You're right that both examples are to the detriment of the creators' intents. It is rather unfortunate to see more and more artists bowing down to pressure from a few loudmouths. And yes, implementation of female sexuality, titillation, or mere jokiness in the case of Mika, IS art.
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
And Europe....actually a decent amount of the Western world, name a country that isn't more concerned with sex over violence.
Pretty sure the ridiculous censorship of video games in Germany has exclusively focused on violence and fascism over sexuality. Censorship of sex seems to have mostly died out during the 70s to 80s. Isn't to say you won't find people complaining about depictions of sexuality here (especially considering the recent Müllermilch business), but violence has certainly garnered the most attention. I don't remember looking at robot tits in games because they considered human ones too harmful.
Like it or not these "feeble" people as you put it exist and perhaps that's a problem then too if Capcom wants those people to get into their game as players or spectators or avoid having a negative stigma where people are uncomfortable playing their game around certain audiences. Do you really want this in if it potentially hurts the growth of this series (whether you agree with the reason or not)?
My point was this change does nothing for them given the rest of the game.
Germany rates a game like "Lula 3D" (look it up while not at work) as okay for 16 year olds but completely bans Condemned criminal origins
UuxhSAa.jpg
 

Wallach

Member
R. Mika's buttslap was removed in the name of making SFV more inclusive and in an effort to avoid offending anyone. Guns were removed from ET for the same reason. I agree that butts and guns aren't the same. The issue isn't only about butts. It's about removing content in an effort to make things more inclusive. The comparison is appropriate.

There is no reason to to put the word "art" in quotation marks, by the way.

Weren't these changes made after the film had already had a theatrical release? If I remember right, Spielberg regretted making those changes because of that; he actually did not like the reaction people had to those things, but changing them after the creative process was over and the film already released wasn't the right response. If he'd predicted that response during filming, though, I imagine the version of E.T. that originally released would have been slightly different, and I don't think he would have felt it would have been the wrong decision.

The only reason anyone knows about this change is because we are given the privilege of seeing much of their iterative progress instead of only the final product. That they are considering these things in that process is not indicative of a problem whatsoever.
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
Weren't these changes made after the film had already had a theatrical release? If I remember right, Spielberg regretted making those changes because of that; he actually did not like the reaction people had to those things, but changing them after the creative process was over and the film already released wasn't the right response. If he'd predicted that response during filming, though, I imagine the version of E.T. that originally released would have been slightly different, and I don't think he would have felt it would have been the wrong decision.

The only reason anyone knows about this change is because we are given the privilege of seeing much of their iterative progress instead of only the final product. That they are considering these things in that process is not indicative of a problem whatsoever.
He did regret changing it after the release because it "robbed the people who loved E.T." but he also said he was "overly sensitive to some of the criticism E.T. got from parent groups."

http://www.avclub.com/article/steven-spielberg-sorry-he-made-all-those-changes-t-61801
 
His comment seems to kind of go against what he said. "It wasn't because of anyone, it was a internal choice". Which is odd since as was said they made a internal choice after letting it loose on the world. I don't care about the matter, their game they can do what they want, but that sticks out to me.

11 pages late, but this was my first thought as well.
 
Germany rates a game like "Lula 3D" (look it up while not at work) as okay for 16 year olds but completely bans Condemned criminal origins

Fair enough, in my defence I know Jack all about Germany.

11 pages late, but this was my first thought as well.

Honestly this probably amounted to him saying, "hey, can you pan the camera up a bit, I don't like the way it looks" and after it got a shit storm he had to pull an explanation out of his ass.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
It's been in the last several builds, trailers, and betas.
I wouldn't know, eventhough I renewed my PS+ the day the beta was released because I love SF, the most I've seen of it is the can not connect error message.
 

vg260

Member
My point was this change does nothing for them given the rest of the game.

Maybe it shouldn't in theory, but does it in actuality, though? You can't really say what others are or are not bothered by, whether you agree with their reasons or not. Different people have different thresholds of what they're comfortable with. Certainly you've been in a situation where you think, "ok, maybe that's a bit much". It seems clear Capcom is trying to find a balance somewhere.
 
people thinking everyone gets worked up over the buttslap is wrong. it's not sexual to me, it's a hilarious taunt that they removed because some people found it offensive. I bet if a male character did it, no one would even care.

Does it really need to be explained why it's different for men and women? How they are viewed in completely different standards in society?

Also people would complain if it was a guy wearing a thong and slapping his butt like that because it would be "too gay", I can guarantee that kind of shit would be brought up.
 
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