Bobby Roberts
Banned
Jesus Christ
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Can't bring myself to watch The Force Awakens more than a couple of times
- Thread starter Gunslinger
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The Librarian
Banned
I kinda feel bad to say this because you wrote all of that, but Rey's arc in TFA wasn't based on abilities. It was an emotional one.
The Librarian
Banned
Sad!
elrechazado
Banned
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Where are these people even fuckin' comin from.
I'm sorry, but what the ever loving fuck are you talking about?
I have no Goddamn idea why some of y'all literally turn into the Hyenas from Lion King every time Bobby posts in this thread, when he's done nothing but type clear, concise posts.
Disagree with him? I often do. Just knock this "lol, let's bundle Bobby" bullshit the fuck off. Because it's getting tiresome seeing people realise their full of shit, and turn this into some weird ass personal attack.
I mean, seriously, the fuck does Bobby's opinion re: BvS have to do with this thread? I'm a BvS fan, and even I can't figure out what the Hell connection there is between this film and TFA that warrants you practically beating off with joy at the idea you've somehow "owned" Bobby, like this is a game of online connect four or some shit.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Unlike the prequel trilogy which oddly enough gets easier to enjoy the more I rewatch it and the original trilogy which has some how managed to maintain its classic appeal and is generally just absolutely enjoyable.
Episode 7 and Rogue One just get worse on every single rewatch. Every time I sit down to rewatch them they like feel cheaper imitations once the OH MY GOD A NEW STAR WARS MOVIE effect has worn off. They are so close to getting there but just stumble a few too many times for the illusion to hold.
I suspect it's because the original trilogy has human characters, a cast of people that are totally relatable and who you watch grow, even luke, leia and han from the beginning of episode 4 to the end have changed. Luke is no longer that orphan looking for adventure he's found a cause he believes in, Han went from not giving a shit about anyone else to protecting his friends, Leia went from being uptight and bossy to being a rallying force for the rebellion.
In episode 7 the only character to have a genuine human transformation is Finn, he goes from scared and almost cowardly to willing to die to protect his friends. Han is the same character, Poe isn't a character as much as he is a plot device, Rey is kind of basically an anime character whose only growth is that she gets more powerful. And everyone else is just kind of incidental. Episode 7 feels too bloated with stuff that doesn't matter and doesn't give us any meaningful character moments.
Episode 7 and Rogue One just get worse on every single rewatch. Every time I sit down to rewatch them they like feel cheaper imitations once the OH MY GOD A NEW STAR WARS MOVIE effect has worn off. They are so close to getting there but just stumble a few too many times for the illusion to hold.
I suspect it's because the original trilogy has human characters, a cast of people that are totally relatable and who you watch grow, even luke, leia and han from the beginning of episode 4 to the end have changed. Luke is no longer that orphan looking for adventure he's found a cause he believes in, Han went from not giving a shit about anyone else to protecting his friends, Leia went from being uptight and bossy to being a rallying force for the rebellion.
In episode 7 the only character to have a genuine human transformation is Finn, he goes from scared and almost cowardly to willing to die to protect his friends. Han is the same character, Poe isn't a character as much as he is a plot device, Rey is kind of basically an anime character whose only growth is that she gets more powerful. And everyone else is just kind of incidental. Episode 7 feels too bloated with stuff that doesn't matter and doesn't give us any meaningful character moments.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
He remembers my writings on BvS more than I do. I don't even know that I've talked about the film that much here, have I?
Maybe there's a post where I say something about how each scene is filled with a bunch of pointless exposition, but that'd be kind of the opposite of what I'm talking about here, wouldn't it? Where people are complaining because the characters are doing things onscreen and using cinematic language to get the point across as opposed to say, standing around and explaining everything to everyone for pages and pages of dialog at a time as per the DM guide nobody was issued when we bought a ticket?
And of course, the most important part: Executing it well. Or if not well, at least interestingly. Even IF Batman v Superman was somehow good about the amount of information being delivered scene to scene, it wouldn't matter because almost all of that information, whether it be dialog, action, character-building, etc. was executed very poorly in my estimation.
How things are done counts more than what is done. Citing bullet points and giving a film credit simply for containing the bullet points is putting the bar on the fuckin' floor, yunno? It's how you wind up with people arguing that Attack of the Clones is a good movie because Anakin & Padme do x, y, z.
I mean, like - yeah, they do those things. Sure. They don't do them well. Or interestingly.
The interrogation scene in TFA works very well, for me. It packs a lot of info in, both visually and in terms of the plot, while conveying that information in a compelling manner. It's an emotional, intriguing scene, and contains some of Ridley's best work (it's the scene she performed in the audition to get the role, as a matter of fact.)
elrechazado
Banned
You've clearly thought about this a lot, but have a very odd view of what constitutes "owning", beating off, or "attacks".
Well, speed racer is a damn good movie. Better than boyhood for sure.
Star Orpheus
Member
The mind trick is genuinely the only thing Rey does that bugs me in this movie.
Fighting skills? She shown to be a familiar in melee combat so for movie logic I can buy she can swing a sword. Plus her opponent was already heavily injured.
But the mind trick bugs me, and it's purely because of the original trilogy. Like if this was the first Star Wars movie ever, I feel like I would have been fine with it. But to have her be apple to pick up a technique in only a few minutes that, from the audiences perspective, took our previous hero becoming a master to use, takes me out of it.
Now maybe Luke just never used it until Return and it's actually really easy to use once your familiar with the force, but nothing that I saw at least gave that impression.
The retreads were slightly annoying but meh, Metal Gear did it all the time, I'm used to it. Star Killer base was unneeded though. Overall I do really like the movie but it feels like people are terrified we'll go back to the prequels if you say anything bad about it.
Fighting skills? She shown to be a familiar in melee combat so for movie logic I can buy she can swing a sword. Plus her opponent was already heavily injured.
But the mind trick bugs me, and it's purely because of the original trilogy. Like if this was the first Star Wars movie ever, I feel like I would have been fine with it. But to have her be apple to pick up a technique in only a few minutes that, from the audiences perspective, took our previous hero becoming a master to use, takes me out of it.
Now maybe Luke just never used it until Return and it's actually really easy to use once your familiar with the force, but nothing that I saw at least gave that impression.
The retreads were slightly annoying but meh, Metal Gear did it all the time, I'm used to it. Star Killer base was unneeded though. Overall I do really like the movie but it feels like people are terrified we'll go back to the prequels if you say anything bad about it.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I dunno, I always felt this inference was... variable, I guess?
Like, I saw Luke do it in ROTJ but I never got the sense it was some hard to master thing, honestly. Or that's not how I ever interpreted it. If anything, it's just a callback. "Oh, it's that thing from the first movie!"
Again, I think it's just that over time, a lot of fans have been trained (or just prefer on their own outside of any gaming/expanded universe influence) to think of the force as a powerset first and foremost, which leads people to get upset when it appears someone else doesn't write The Force with those (often arbitrary) rules in mind. That "bullshit, they're cheating!" response kicks in. It feels "unfair," I guess.
But I've always thought of the Force primarily as the mystical energy field, and appreciated takes on it in the fiction that treat it as a wild card, more or less. It prefer when doesn't behave in a uniform, easy to categorize manner, and appreciate when it's shown to work in unexpected ways, or through unexpected people.
The Mind-Trick was always more comedy gag than actual power anyway. Not to say it isn't useful as shit, but it's also as close as you can get to fourth-wall breaking in Star Wars when used correctly in the films. "Get a load of this shit."
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Didn't someone in one of these threads point out that a whole lot of Luke's training seemed to take longer and drag out simply because he had to be convinced he could do the things he wanted to do first?
Rey just... tries it. She either experiences it, or is shown it, and she doesn't have to be convinced its real at that point. She knows it can be done, so she just...tries to do it.
And she doesn't always succeed on first go, either. There's always a stumble.
Luke spent most of his training with Yoda being yelled at for telling Yoda he can't do the thing Yoda knows you can do.
While lots of games present the Force as a thing you have to grind through, to unlock new levels of mastery, I'm not sure that's the best way to present it in the films or the TV show. It's not like pushups or pullups. Rey gives herself over to the Force once its awakened way more often than not. But she also refused even trying to fuck with it when it first came knocking. The hardest part of using the Force should be getting out of your own way to let it work.
Or, if you're a darksider, being strong enough/shitty enough to brute force it to your will.
Rey just... tries it. She either experiences it, or is shown it, and she doesn't have to be convinced its real at that point. She knows it can be done, so she just...tries to do it.
And she doesn't always succeed on first go, either. There's always a stumble.
Luke spent most of his training with Yoda being yelled at for telling Yoda he can't do the thing Yoda knows you can do.
While lots of games present the Force as a thing you have to grind through, to unlock new levels of mastery, I'm not sure that's the best way to present it in the films or the TV show. It's not like pushups or pullups. Rey gives herself over to the Force once its awakened way more often than not. But she also refused even trying to fuck with it when it first came knocking. The hardest part of using the Force should be getting out of your own way to let it work.
Or, if you're a darksider, being strong enough/shitty enough to brute force it to your will.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Hey HariKari.
I finally got a cycle to sit and read this. Thanks for posting.
It was definitely worth checking out.
Are you referring to her waiting for her parents/family to return ? I was interested in that plot point too and I felt the story had almost forgotten it in favor of everything else they were doing. I'd like to see it expanded upon along with other elements of the story that got sidelined like Poe, Phasma, and the reason behind Luke's character change.
And Bobby, of course there's no rules saying how much or how little can happen in a single scene. But when many scenes start to have things in common there is nothing wrong with saying something in fiction feels poorly laid out. When a new character, (blank slates as they often are) that we are meant to follow along with has skills just spring up as the plot dictates it, it doesn't feel natural and instead can wind up feeling to some people, like this.
Yeah, I think a lot of people interpret Force powers like it's a video game when in truth it's more like this
Believing you can do it is all it really takes. Yoda makes this incredibly clear in Empire.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I still remember checking out the Matrix thinking it would just be a weird anime-influenced action flick at best and leaving like "what in the fuck was that?"
99 was a crazy year
99 was a crazy year
LookAtMeGo
Member
I tried running on walls and stuff after I saw the matrix. It also introduced me to the holographic universe theory. Good stuff.
Sure, but I was referring to how everything she does not just her jedi powers are almost all just sprung on you with no pretext. Is there a reason she needs to speak wookie or fly a ship she's never been in better than its pilot of decades ? Also, yeah I'd have rolled my eyes if Luke had used all of his powers in ANH. This was Rey's first showing. And the movie dialed everything up to 11 including her. Bigger death star that can destroy even more planets, crazier force powers, storm troopers now trained from birth, the first order's nazi imagery.
I agree with this completely.
The only two powers Rey uses in TFA are the mind trick and the pull, both of which are demonstrated to her by Kylo Ren before she uses it
-- Kylo Ren's mind reading is basically an amped up version of the Jedi Mind trick
-- Kylo Run uses the Force to pull and immobilize things, including Rey
And her skills as a pilot and fighter are just perks of being force sensitive, like Anakin and Luke. People unknowingly tapping into The Force isn't new at all. It's not like Rey pulls any Force powers completely out of left field. Comparatively, Luke pulls his powers out of his ass way more than Rey does.
-- Kylo Ren's mind reading is basically an amped up version of the Jedi Mind trick
-- Kylo Run uses the Force to pull and immobilize things, including Rey
And her skills as a pilot and fighter are just perks of being force sensitive, like Anakin and Luke. People unknowingly tapping into The Force isn't new at all. It's not like Rey pulls any Force powers completely out of left field. Comparatively, Luke pulls his powers out of his ass way more than Rey does.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
But there is pretext. You just don't think there's enough. Or that it's justified. I asked how it wasn't earlier, but you basically went on the DM trip again, and I don't think that's a good answer. I feel like the film justifies itself in multiple ways, and takes care to set up the notion that any dogmatic ideas of how the Force should work are now in question, if not off the table completely (they have Han Solo deliberately state this theme in dialog, even).
The reason sexism comes up so much in conversation around Rey's character and her ability to use the Force after it awakens is because what she does upon discovering she can use it isn't really all that different once compared to other characters who have the same revelation in the other films preceding this one. There's context to this. It's not happening in a vacuum. The only other things that make her different in that regard are that a) So far she's not related to anyone we know and b) she's a she.
So if people are willing to accept (as you just did) that it's a matter of belief in the Force more than it is a matter of aptitude (and hell, this aspect is a theme in Rogue One), the rules-lawyering aspect should automatically be diminished, right? But it's not. So the question naturally comes up "wait, why aren't you letting this go then?"
The unwillingness to accept her atptitude probably shouldn't be plot-based because both Kasdan & Abrams took care to set it up, as evidenced by the number of examples being given in response the instant someone rolls in here with their recycled hot take plucked straight from the laffy taffy factory that is RLM's comments section.
So if it's not plot-based, and the series context is being taken into account, there's not much left to point to as a stumbling block beyond a) she's new and b) she's a she. So people naturally are going to ask that question: Would you be such a stickler for Abrams/Kasdan breaking "the rules" of the Force if it the person they were "breaking" them for weren't Rey?
Like, I couldn't argue if someone was like "I got it just fine, and I see why it works, I just don't like it." There's no argument to be had there! To each their reach. But it's when someone tries to suggest there's been a violation of the rules, that there's cheating underway, that how something got done doesn't even matter next to the lore being violated/ignored, that's when there's pushback.
Most of the time "the lore" isn't even fuckin' lore.
Yeah, I think a lot of people interpret Force powers like it's a video game when in truth it's more like this
Believing you can do it is all it really takes. Yoda makes this incredibly clear in Empire.
But that might not be a satisfying interpretation to the audience. Even if you're born to genius or superstar athletic parents, if you just show a kid being born, growing up, and then instantly dunking within a few hours of getting a basketball, it feels like a cheat. Films use montage to compress the "boring" parts of training, but they generally feel like accruing skills and experience is important. Even in The Matrix Neo's power is really treated as a culmination of a lot of effort, not an instant skip-cheat.
He doesn't show them off with the proficiency or skill Rey does, though. The amount of aptitude each character shows off in their first film is a pretty stark contrast.
That's because Luke has a harder time believing than Rey does. TFA demonstrates that Rey already has some passing knowledge of Luke and The Force, "Luke Skywalker? I thought he was a myth?" Luke at the start of A New Hope isn't presented with having any kind of knowledge of The Force and minimal knowledge of The Jedi.
But if you follow that to its logical conclusion, you can basically instantly become the Best Force User ever by just being incredibly confident. Which doesn't jive with anything presented in the original films, and again, doesn't feel like you're constructing something to be satisfying for an audience.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I don't know if I agree with this.
He spends 20 minutes (at most) in a single simulation with Morpheus after having knowledge downloaded into his head.
His power isn't really so much a culmination of anything. he just gets the fuck out of his own way and trusts in the knowledge that's been more or less programmed into him.
The movie has multiple scenes where multiple characters can just do shit as needed. It's not a problem though because the learning how to do it is secondary to their learning to believe in themselves and get the fuck out of their own way. Once you trust and believe, you can achieve. That's the Matrix. That's Star Wars.
Confidence (and not being ashamed of yourself or your shortcomings, and just working to move past them instead) is a big part of it. Believe in yourself, believe in your friends, believe in being good and doing the right thing - you can achieve wonders.
It's basic fairy tale shit!
ToxicPhantom
Member
I loved it.
Nothing will ever beat out the original trilogy. So the bar is set pretty high and anything released after that will be a disappointment for many just because of the epic original three.
Prequels were fun to watch, but not at the level of the original three.
TFA, I loved it because it combined the old with the new.
Nothing will ever beat out the original trilogy. So the bar is set pretty high and anything released after that will be a disappointment for many just because of the epic original three.
Prequels were fun to watch, but not at the level of the original three.
TFA, I loved it because it combined the old with the new.
It's about as in line with the original films as you can get. Luke, after simply learning that The Force exists and trusting The Force to help him a little bit is able to go block blaster shots blindfolded and nail a one-in-a-million shot so precise a computer can't even do it. And the entire basis of Luke's training in Empire is Yoda trying to get Luke's mind around the giant mental block he's having. Luke's entire problem in Empire is simply that he isn't confident enough and doesn't believe he can go further
Luke: "I don't believe it"
Yoda: "That is why you fail"
The prequels are the movies that don't jive with the OT's depiction of The Force, not Episode 7
No it's not. It's treated as Neo finally believing. Morpheus literally says this when Neo decides to fight Smith instead of run. Effort means nothing in The Matrix.
But it's still the culmination of Neo's character arc. The movie would not have been satisfying if after the "I know kung-fu" scene Neo is able to instantly be Superman. Likewise, I think stuff like Rey's saber pull (which is a nice little scene) would have meant a lot more if she wasn't succeeding at every trick she tried before that.
finowns
Member
The Force has always been presented as something that needs to be studied and practiced. Lucas has been pretty consistent about that. Even in TFA when Rey finds Luke to train (I assume).
Honestly no, he really hasn't been consistent about that.
That would have been detrimental to her arc though, honestly.
The Librarian
Banned
Gonna ignore the whole arc thing (though I don't understand why you place Rey's skills above her story when it comes to arcs), but Rey has flown before and has been in the Falcon. The movie makes that clear (though one is more subtle than the other).
finowns
Member
What specifically?
Luke's wildly inconsistent development with Force Powers, for example. Same with Leia
finowns
Member
Leia with no study or practice suddenly is able to sense that Luke survived the second Death Star explosion in Jedi. Most of Luke's powers develop without any kind of proper training.
Exactly!
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Rey's actions aren't really comparable to "being Superman" though. Even after she starts to get out of her own way and trust in/believe in the Force, she's not Superman. She pulls off a mind trick and takes advantage of the wounded villain forced to fight for conversion, not death.
So we just end up back at "why do you feel like her victory, her power, her heroic nature, is illegitimate?"
She's not Superman. She's not Neo. She's a better Luke than Luke was at that same point, sure, but Luke still had a way to go, and so will she.
Basically, what reason do you have to be this distrustful of her character and its execution? What is it about her character that causes you to reject her awakening as presented?
So we just end up back at "why do you feel like her victory, her power, her heroic nature, is illegitimate?"
She's not Superman. She's not Neo. She's a better Luke than Luke was at that same point, sure, but Luke still had a way to go, and so will she.
Basically, what reason do you have to be this distrustful of her character and its execution? What is it about her character that causes you to reject her awakening as presented?
finowns
Member
Sure but she's not doing any Jedi skills.
That is a Jedi skill! Or at the very least a skill to people who can use The Force (which are almost always Jedi)
finowns
Member
I think if Leia did the Jedi mind trick you'd have a point. But that would never happen because she's never trained in the force.
you dont have to go so far, on empire, she senses luke's calling for help and knows exactly where he is hanging
Being able to sense things through The Force is a Jedi ability that Leia learns without any kind of training or practice.
Also, Anakin learns how to become a Force Ghost completely out of left field too. And Luke also learns how to build a lightsaber from out of nowhere.
Rey looking into Kylo Ren's mind was handled well in my opinion. It was a sign of both Ren's weakness and possibly a sign that when a force user breaks into someone's mind, they're also potentially opening up their own mind. I just don't like how TFA handled the Jedi Mind Trick on the stormtrooper immediately afterward. There's nothing in the movie indicating to either the audience (who haven't seen the OT) or Rey herself that force users can give specific commands using the JMT.
Both characters received some kind of extensive "education" to explain all of their abilities (except Rey's JMT in my opinion), it's just not really shown in the movies. Only implied, mostly through lines.
ANH has lines laying out Luke's piloting skills while growing up. ESB and ROTJ also imply Luke spent a significant amount of time training with Yoda on Dagobah. Luke almost never uses force powers prior to Dagobah. I think he hit the exhaust port without the targeting computer and he force-pulled his lightsaber, the latter of which took significant effort and concentration. He doesn't start casually force pulling and JMT'ing until after meeting Yoda,
TFA has lines implying Rey encountered old flight computers containing simulators and reams of other material about the galaxy which she used to educate herself. It's not outrageous that she might have picked up Wookie while on Jakku, either through the computers, simply interacting with them for years (like Han), or a combination of the two. Same with being able to understand Basic. If anything, Rey just had access to a much more significant education than Luke ever did.
Both characters received some kind of extensive "education" to explain all of their abilities (except Rey's JMT in my opinion), it's just not really shown in the movies. Only implied, mostly through lines.
ANH has lines laying out Luke's piloting skills while growing up. ESB and ROTJ also imply Luke spent a significant amount of time training with Yoda on Dagobah. Luke almost never uses force powers prior to Dagobah. I think he hit the exhaust port without the targeting computer and he force-pulled his lightsaber, the latter of which took significant effort and concentration. He doesn't start casually force pulling and JMT'ing until after meeting Yoda,
TFA has lines implying Rey encountered old flight computers containing simulators and reams of other material about the galaxy which she used to educate herself. It's not outrageous that she might have picked up Wookie while on Jakku, either through the computers, simply interacting with them for years (like Han), or a combination of the two. Same with being able to understand Basic. If anything, Rey just had access to a much more significant education than Luke ever did.
In ANH, Luke is blocking laser blasts while blind with a sword he's never used after Obi-wan gives him a couple sentences worth of pep talk about the Force.
Luke is farmer. Sure, he needs practice to gain mastery. but he was doing crazy shit right off the bat. More crazy than anything Rey does.
finowns
Member
Sensing things through the force is passive enough where it doesn't strain belief, like 'oh, these guys are psychic or something. For example, if Rey went around just sensing things through force I don't think you'd have people questioning it. Although I realize that's unrealistic as she's the hero, she has to do more, but I wish they could have made it more believable on that account, as someone said letting her use the force as she found scrap in the first act, implying that she's had a grasp on the force for a long time, would have satisfied me.
About your Anakin turning into a force ghost, he's been training for so long I don't question that he could do it, unless I'm misremembering something.
And I don't remember The scene when Luke makes his light saber, wasn't it after he trained with Yoda?
Gunslinger
Member
Yeah he had his green saber long before yoda died.
finowns
Member
Hey.. didn't we do this already. As I've said he has a master of the force tutoring him that gives him a lot leeway, for me at least. And the scene starts in the middle of Luke's practice, we don't know what happened beforehand.
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