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[Bobby Roberts]

How could Anakin train to learn a technique nobody knew about but Qui-Gon, Ben, and Yoda?

This is the other problem with persisting in consuming the fiction primarily as a story about rulesets and powerlevels: People can't even come to a common understanding on what they are and how they work.

Probably because the fiction itself as seen in the films isnt anywhere near as concerned with that read as the fans might be.

We're basically tripping over people's headcanon when it comes to the Force, compounded by the point of view being skewed from jump due to one side looking at the Force as a storytelling tool that helps enhance characterization and theme, and the other looking at it as a reward for characters successfully "earning" their good guy status.

 

[Gunslinger]

Hey.. didn't we do this already. As I've said he has a master of the force tutoring him that gives him a lot leeway, for me at least. And the scene starts in the middle of Luke's practice, we don't know what happened beforehand.

Also many of the times when Luke pulls off a great feat in 4 & 5 obi-wan was there to guide him.

 

[finowns]

How could Anakin train to learn a technique nobody knew about but Qui-Gon, Ben, and Yoda?

This is the other problem with persisting in consuming the fiction primarily as a story about rulesets and powerlevels: People can't even come to a common understanding on what they are and how they work.

Probably because the fiction itself as seen in the films isnt anywhere near as concerned with that read as the fans might be.

We're basically tripping over people's headcanon when it comes to the Force, compounded by the point of view being skewed from jump due to one side looking at the Force as a storytelling tool that helps enhance characterization and theme, and the other looking at it as a reward for characters successfully "earning" their good guy status.

Anakin trained under two of those Jedi. Does it really strain belief that he could also do it?

 

[elrechazado]

In ANH, Luke is blocking laser blasts while blind with a sword he's never used after Obi-wan gives him a couple sentences worth of pep talk about the Force.

Luke is farmer. Sure, he needs practice to gain mastery. but he was doing crazy shit right off the bat. More crazy than anything Rey does.

Such as? Rey beats the crap out of some thugs, then pilots a ship she's never flown before in and out of a downed star destroyer outflying multiple professional fighter pilot. What did luke do in the first half of anh that's more crazy than that? Missing a bunch of computer assisted shots while han pilots the falcon before hitting one tie fighter? Almost getting killed at a bar while not even reacting before ben saves him? Getting snuck up on and knocked the duck out by sand people? What crazy shit? He took three movies to do the mind trick. Took to the second movie to force pull his own saber. Crazy shit?????

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Those two people didn't even know such a thing was possible until after he had turned.

Who tells him that its even possible?

How does he train to do a thing he doesn't even know EXISTS

 

[shingi70]

Maybe Anikan being the chosen one made him so powerful that he became a force ghost without training.

 

[The Scollard]

Hey.. didn't we do this already. As I've said he has a master of the force tutoring him that gives him a lot leeway, for me at least. And the scene starts in the middle of Luke's practice, we don't know what happened beforehand.

The stakes are very low, as well, and it happens early in the film long before the payoff. I feel like it's easier to get the audience to accept something when it's introduced early and in scenes where the stakes are comparatively low. When skills are introduced when the stakes are high, right before they end up helping the protagonists, it feels like the writers are writing by the seat of their pants and not bothering with any set up or foreshadowing, which makes the protagonists' achievements feel hollow and unearned (as it feels like they're being helped out by the writers who just introduced a power to save them, instead of using their own intuition and intelligence to apply what they already knew and learned about to escape their situation). It kind of reminds me of the third Harry Potter movie, where the spell that ends up saving the heroes at the end (even though it was introduced in same movie) doesn't feel like it comes out of nowhere because its introduced and the characters learn it early on in the classroom. It also makes the writing feel more natural (maybe that's not the best word for it), since things don't come out of nowhere and are introduced right before the protagonist needs them.

The writing in TFA just felt cheap because of it. Like a mystery where the writers aren't playing fair with you, because they do things like never introducing the culprit until the reveal. It's not just a problem I have with TFA, too. Some of my least favourite Doctor Who episodes are ones where the plot ends up solved through a previously unseen function of the Sonic Screwdriver (a function which never shows up again).

 

[elrechazado]

Maybe Anikan being the chosen one made him so powerful that he became a force ghost without training.

Why is it assumed that the Jedi themselves learned to be force ghosts as if it's a skill you learn? As a kid watching sw, I personally just assumed they were ghosts, and good/the force/the universe just brought them back because it was s needed, the same as any other ghost mentor trope throughout fiction.

 

[Gunslinger]

Such as? Rey beats the crap out of some thugs, then pilots a ship she's never flown before in and out of a downed star destroyer outflying multiple professional fighter pilot. What did luke do in the first half of anh that's more crazy than that? Missing a bunch of computer assisted shots while han pilots the falcon before hitting one tie fighter? Almost getting killed at a bar while not even reacting before ben saves him? Getting snuck up on and knocked the duck out by sand people? What crazy shit? He took three movies to do the mind trick. Took to the second movie to force pull his own saber. Crazy shit?????

I think Rey will be revealed as the most powerful force user ever lived in episode 8. She will probably end up training Luke a thing or two about force power too I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Hey.. didn't we do this already.

We did, but no one has come close to explaining how what Rey does is in any way inconsistent with Luke's experience. So as long as people keep rolling that one out, I'll keep coming back to it.

 

[Gunslinger]

We did, but no one has come close to explaining how what Rey does is in any way inconsistent with Luke's experience. So as long as people keep rolling that one out, I'll keep coming back to it.

Read 1304 and disprove him.

 

[shingi70]

Why is it assumed that the Jedi themselves learned to be force ghosts as if it's a skill you learn? As a kid watching sw, I personally just assumed they were ghosts, and good/the force/the universe just brought them back because it was s needed, the same as any other ghost mentor trope throughout fiction.

The last season of the Clolne wars had an arc explaining that becoming a force ghost was something you had to learn.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I think Rey will be revealed as the most powerful force user ever lived in episode 8

Hey.. didn't we do this already.

The last season of the Clolne wars had an arc explaining that becoming a force ghost was something you had to learn.

It's one of the last things Yoda says in Episode III, too.

But even if Yoda and Ben have to be taught how to do it, it doesn't disqualify that Anakin can... just do it if he wants to, I guess. Because the Force isn't a strict achievement ladder you work your way up by level grinding.

Movies aren't games.

 

[FriendlyGoat]

The stakes are very low, as well, and it happens early in the film long before the payoff. I feel like it's easier to get the audience to accept something when it's introduced early and in scenes where the stakes are comparatively low. When skills are introduced when the stakes are high, right before they end up helping the protagonists, it feels like the writers are writing by the seat of their pants and not bothering with any set up or foreshadowing, which makes the protagonists' achievements feel hollow and unearned (as it feels like they're being helped out by the writers who just introduced a power to save them, instead of using their own intuition and intelligence to apply what they already knew and learned about to escape their situation). It kind of reminds me of the third Harry Potter movie, where the spell that ends up saving the heroes at the end (even though it was introduced in same movie) doesn't feel like it comes out of nowhere because its introduced and the characters learn it early on in the classroom. It also makes the writing feel more natural (maybe that's not the best word for it), since things don't come out of nowhere and are introduced right before the protagonist needs them.

The writing in TFA just felt cheap because of it. Like a mystery where the writers aren't playing fair with you, because they do things like never introducing the culprit until the reveal. It's not just a problem I have with TFA, too. Some of my least favourite Doctor Who episodes are ones where the plot ends up solved through a previously unseen function of the Sonic Screwdriver (a function which never shows up again).

I don't think that's entirely fair to apply to Rey's Abilities in TFA.

Fighting: She is shown early on to have a decent level of proficiency with a weapon.

Mind Trick/Mind Reading: The audience is introduced early on to Kylo poking around in Poe's head. This is later repeated and subverted when he tries it on Rey and finds her resistant. Rey feels him poking and turns it around. Not out of nowhere for the audience, new to Rey but she's already been introduced to the possibilities of the force. She may have picked it up moments before using it, but the audience is already in the know, and it makes sense she would turn around and use something she just learned. It's not a new thing the audience has never seen before and will never see again.

Saber Pull: It's established halfway through that the saber is calling out to her. It WANTS to be with her. In the final moment of desperation she observes Kylo pulling at it, emulates him and the Saber goes to her. While the force "power" (again, not an RPG) was not explicitly taught, the force and/or lightsaber seeking to connect with her has been established.

Force channeling to defeat Kylo: the idea is introduced by Maz halfway through. "Close your eyes... Feel it... The light... it's always been there. It will guide you." She recalls Maz's words.

Everything is set up. None of it is out of nowhere.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Also keep in mind the artificial standard where people suggest that the film has to work as a standalone in every possible way, and not as the sequel to 6 previous movies, which it is.

The idea that the mind trick is somehow fraudulent because it wasn't explicitly set up in this movie used in that specific way doesn't wash, with me. The mind trick is pretty well established by episode 7. It's not breaking some sort of rule for Rey to figure it out on her own after having the supercharged version of it that Ren uses focused directly ON her.

 

[elrechazado]

The last season of the Clolne wars had an arc explaining that becoming a force ghost was something you had to learn.

Ewww

 

[GhaleonEB]

Such as? Rey beats the crap out of some thugs

It's established that she's lived on this desert planet on her own most of her life, and that she carries a weapon with her at all times. A weapon we later see her use. Not only is this not a stretch, its entirely believable basic story telling.

then pilots a ship she's never flown before in and out of a downed star destroyer outflying multiple professional fighter pilot.

ANH: Luke fantasizes about flying ships, with a toy model of one. Later gets to fly a ship he's never flown before (an X-Wing) that he says is similar to one he's flown before. Then then flies it better than the experienced Rebel pilots around him, such that he's in the last four (IIRC) ships to survive the attack on the Death Star.

TFA: Rey fantasizes about flying rebel ships, parking a Resistance helmet on her head in her AT-AT that has a doll of a resistance soldier. She says she's flown other ships before, not the Falcon. She then flies the Falcon well enough to outmaneuver Tie Fighters.

How exactly is that more impressive than Luke also flying a ship he's never flown before?

What did luke do in the first half of anh that's more crazy than that?

• Use a utility cable to rappel across a chasm with Leia hanging off him
• Outgun Imperial stormtroopers
• Bullseye the controls of a blast door at long range to stop Vader from marching through it after Obi-wan was struck down
• Man the guns on the Falcon to shoot down Tie Fighters, his first such attempt

Luke is a farmer.

The "crazy shit" I mentioned was Luke, a farmer, doing the following:

• Using a sword to block laser blasts
• Fired at close range
• While blind
• Three times in a row
• With no training outside of a few words from Obi-wan

In TFA Rey uses the Force to do the following:

• Mind trick on a Stormtrooper
• Pull the saber to her
• Outmanuver Kylo Ren for about 5 seconds

The really amusing part of all this is how meticulous TFA is to explain why Rey can do what she does. Kylo Ren's manipulations of Rey blow directly back on him and reveal her ability to use the Force; he is her unwitting teacher. That is literally the story.

Rey does the mind trick because she learned how to do so when Kylo Ren was in her head a couple scenes prior.

She pulls the saber to her after Kylo Ren uses the Force to freeze her in place, throw her into a tree, and then start to pull the saber to himself.

She outmaneuvers Kylo Ren for 5 seconds by meditating on Maz's words about the Force to her. (A direct parallel to Luke doing so to Obi-wan's words at the end of ANH.)

Nothing Rey does is out of line with ANH, yet it still goes out of its way to explain itself. And still gets these kind of nonsense claims about what she does thrown at her. It's really, really weird.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Thank you so much for that post Ghaleon.


The TFA hate I see is fucking bewildering.


... And this thread really needs to die.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The really amusing part of all this is how meticulous TFA is to explain why Rey can do what she does. Kylo Ren's manipulations of Rey blow directly back on him and reveal her ability to use the Force; he is her unwitting teacher. That is literally the story.

Nothing Rey does is out of line with ANH, yet it still goes out of its way to explain itself. And still gets these kind of nonsense claims about what she does thrown at her. It's really, really weird.

Yup! Again - it comes back to the question I asked earlier (which nobody seems to have attempted answering, really)

So we just end up back at "why do you feel like her victory, her power, her heroic nature, is illegitimate?"

Basically, what reason do you have to be this distrustful of her character and its execution? What is it about her character that causes you to reject her awakening as presented?

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Still the perfect summary of this thread.

 

[aBarreras]

Yup! Again - it comes back to the question I asked earlier (which nobody seems to have attempted answering, really)

we know it is because of what is between her legs.

i mean, i also asked if there is a male counterpart to a Mary Sue, it seems pretty blatant that we have a term for when a woman is "can do no wrong" in series or movies and no one seems to bat an eye with is a man doing it

 

[Roders5]

I think Rey will be revealed as the most powerful force user ever lived in episode 8. She will probably end up training Luke a thing or two about force power too I wouldn't be surprised.

Holy shit man don't make me do it again

 

[Vice]

we know it is because of what is between her legs.

i mean, i also asked if there is a male counterpart to a Mary Sue, it seems pretty blatant that we have a term for when a woman is "can do no wrong" in series or movies and no one seems to bat an eye with is a man doing it

I believe it's called a Gary Stu.

 

[elrechazado]

It's established that she's lived on this desert planet on her own most of her life, and that she carries a weapon with her at all times. A weapon we later see her use. Not only is this not a stretch, its entirely believable basic story telling.



ANH: Luke fantasizes about flying ships, with a toy model of one. Later gets to fly a ship he's never flown before (an X-Wing) that he says is similar to one he's flown before. Then then flies it better than the experienced Rebel pilots around him, such that he's in the last four (IIRC) ships to survive the attack on the Death Star.

TFA: Rey fantasizes about flying rebel ships, parking a Resistance helmet on her head in her AT-AT that has a doll of a resistance solder. She says she's flown other ships before, not the Falcon. She then flies the Falcon well enough to outmaneuver Tie Fighters.

How exactly is that more impressive than Luke also flying a ship he's never flown before?

• Use a utility cable to rappel across a chasm with Leia hanging off him
• Outgun Imperial stormtroopers
• Bullseye the controls of a blast door at long range to stop Vader from marching through it after Obi-wan was struck down
• Man the guns on the Falcon to shoot down Tie Fighters, his first such attempt

Luke is a farmer.

The "crazy shit" I mentioned was Luke, a farmer, doing the following:

• Using a sword to block laser blasts
• Fired at close range
• While blind
• Three times in a row
• With no training outside of a few words from Obi-wan

In TFA Rey uses the Force to do the following:

• Mind trick on a Stormtrooper
• Pull the saber to her
• Outmanuver Kylo Ren for about 5 seconds

The really amusing part of all this is how meticulous TFA is to explain why Rey can do what she does. Kylo Ren's manipulations of Rey blow directly back on him and reveal her ability to use the Force; he is her unwitting teacher. That is literally the story.

Rey does the mind trick because she learned how to do so when Kylo Ren was in her head a couple scenes prior.

She pulls the saber to her after Kylo Ren uses the Force to throw her into a tree.

She outmaneuvers Kylo Ren for 5 seconds by meditating on Maz's words to her. (A direct parallel to Luke doing so to Obi-wan's words at the end of ANH.)

Nothing Rey does is out of line with ANH, yet it still goes out of its way to explain itself. And still gets these kind of nonsense claims about what she does thrown at her. It's really, really weird.

I think first that you're mistaking my response, because you seem to think I had a problem with her beating those guys up, or flying the ship. Not the argument. My post pointed out, correctly, that your hyperbole that Luke is doing crazy shit compared to Rey is just not the case. Conveniently ignoring that Luke repeatedly get punked, is largely hapless, and has a few cool moments is typical of these arguments though. Really, you're stretching to use his swing on the grappling hook? That's the most basic tropy adventure movie move in the history of movies.

Rey clearly excels in the first movie in fantastic ways beyond what Luke does. That's fine, and fine to be perfectly happy with the script doing this. Trying to pretend that the characters respective journeys are the same, let alone the nonsense about Luke doing crazy shit that Rey couldn't, is just unsupported by - well, anyone's eyes.

Then we add the tired bullshit that anyone who finds the script a bit too much in this regard for this hero's journey is a sexist, and you have a seriously stupid dialogue around here. That some of us then revert to jokes at this point like the knights of sue should be pretty unsurprising.

I find your argument unconvincing and disingenuous given the examples you cite. But hey, they are kids movies produced by white slavers, so who cares.

we know it is because of what is between her legs.

i mean, i also asked if there is a male counterpart to a Mary Sue, it seems pretty blatant that we have a term for when a woman is "can do no wrong" in series or movies and no one seems to bat an eye with is a man doing it

Yeah, no male hero characters in fiction ever get called out on this. Go find a rothfuss thread and you definitely won't see 95% of the posts being specifically about Mary Sue Gary Stu. Yup, totally not a thing, you cleverly exposed all of us secret sexists.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I think Rey will be revealed as the most powerful force user ever lived in episode 8. She will probably end up training Luke a thing or two about force power too I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm not pulling the sexist card as I don't like to assume, but youre making it real fucking hard not to. You trying to defend Luke as if he's not even more of a Mary Sue is damn near nauseating. It's already been explained to you countless times in this thread and if you still don't get it then you're clearly operating under an agenda here.

If Rey is a Mary Sue then Luke and Anakin are the God-Kings of all Mary Sue/Gary Stus.

Anakin being by far the worst of them all. He only lost to Obi-Wan cause he got jobbed. I'm surprised Lucas even had him lose the fight instead of getting hit by a spaceship or some shit after beating Obi-Wan. I'm sure he thought about it.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

I think first that you're mistaking my response, because you seem to think I had a problem with her beating those guys up, or flying the ship. Not the argument. My post pointed out, correctly, that your hyperbole that Luke is doing crazy shit compared to Rey is just not the case. Conveniently ignoring that Luke repeatedly get punked, is largely hapless, and has a few cool moments is typical of these arguments though. Really, you're stretching to use his swing on the grappling hook? That's the most basic tropy adventure movie move in the history of movies.

Rey clearly excels in the first movie in fantastic ways beyond what Luke does. That's fine, and fine to be perfectly happy with the script doing this. Trying to pretend that the characters respective journeys are the same, let alone the nonsense about Luke doing crazy shit that Rey couldn't, is just unsupported by - well, anyone's eyes.

Then we add the tired bullshit that anyone who finds the script a bit too much in this regard for this hero's journey is a sexist, and you have a seriously stupid dialogue around here. That some of us then revert to jokes at this point like the knights of sue should be pretty unsurprising.

I find your argument unconvincing and disingenuous given the examples you cite. But hey, they are kids movies produced by white slavers, so who cares.

Yeah, no male hero characters in fiction ever get called out on this. Go find a rothfuss thread and you definitely won't see 95% of the posts being specifically about Mary Sue Gary Stu. Yup, totally not a thing, you cleverly exposed all of us secret sexists.

...the poster literally laid out bullet points of what fantastical things both characters do in their respective movies yet he's being disingenuous?

 

[Surfinn]

I'm not pulling the sexist card as I don't like to assume, but youre making it real fucking hard not to. You trying to defend Luke as if he's not even more of a Mary Sue is damn near nauseating. It's already been explained to you countless times in this thread and if you still don't get it then you're clearly operating under an agenda here.

If Rey is a Mary Sue then Luke and Anakin are the God-Kings of all Mary Sue/Gary Stus.

Anakin being by far the worst of them all. He only lost to Obi-Wan cause he got jobbed. I'm surprised Lucas even had him lose the fight instead of getting hit by a spaceship or some shit after beating Obi-Wan. I'm sure he thought about it.

"What's this button do? WOOO"

*blows up space station

 

[Gunslinger]

I'm not pulling the sexist card as I don't like to assume, but youre making it real fucking hard not to. You trying to defend Luke as if he's not even more of a Mary Sue is damn near nauseating. It's already been explained to you countless times in this thread and if you still don't get it then you're clearly operating under an agenda here.

If Rey is a Mary Sue then Luke and Anakin are the God-Kings of all Mary Sue/Gary Stus.

Anakin being by far the worst of them all. He only lost to Obi-Wan cause he got jobbed. I'm surprised Lucas even had him lose the fight instead of getting hit by a spaceship or some shit after beating Obi-Wan. I'm sure he thought about it.

Count dooku chopped off Anakin's hand....

 

[aBarreras]

Count dooku chopped off Anakin's hand....

anakin chopped off dooku's head?

 

[The Scollard]

I don't think that's entirely fair to apply to Rey's Abilities in TFA.

Mind Trick/Mind Reading: The audience is introduced early on to Kylo poking around in Poe's head. This is later repeated and subverted when he tries it on Rey and finds her resistant. Rey feels him poking and turns it around. Not out of nowhere for the audience, new to Rey but she's already been introduced to the possibilities of the force. She may have picked it up moments before using it, but the audience is already in the know, and it makes sense she would turn around and use something she just learned. It's not a new thing the audience has never seen before and will never see again.

Everything is set up. None of it is out of nowhere.

I agree with you on the piloting, fighting, and letting the force in parts. I should have indicated that I was only talking about the Mind Trick. I disagree on the Mind Trick part. First off, the fact that Kylo's mind probe (and the fact that it can turned around) is only set up in this movie. I can buy that, but I can sort of buy the fact that it awakened Rey's force abilities. It wasn't set up before, only in the scene where it was used, that it could somehow awaken someone's force abilities. So that came out of nowhere to help her. It's not at all similar to Luke, who was taught the Force by two masters. How Luke learnt is like being taught how to drive by a having someone who knows go through the motions (how to turn on the car and stuff). What happened to Rey is like getting hit by a car, and learning how to drive from that.

But whatever, it stretches my suspension of disbelief, but I can suspend it enough to accommodate something like that. The Force moves in mysterious ways. However, how did she learn how to do the Mind Trick. Nowhere before is it introduced in the movie; her knowing about it isn't even hinted at, and Kylo doesn't use it at all. It comes out of nowhere, unless you've seen a previous film. And yet, she uses it to escape. They could have at least hinted at it before in the movie. That's what broke my suspension of disbelief.

 

[Surfinn]

Count dooku chopped off Anakin's hand....

And what about the first film?

 

[Gunslinger]

anakin chopped off dooku's head?

Sure but not only lost to obiwan as this guy mentioned lol.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I think first that you're mistaking my response, because you seem to think I had a problem with her beating those guys up, or flying the ship. Not the argument. My post pointed out, correctly, that your hyperbole that Luke is doing crazy shit compared to Rey is just not the case. Conveniently ignoring that Luke repeatedly get punked, is largely hapless, and has a few cool moments is typical of these arguments though. Really, you're stretching to use his swing on the grappling hook? That's the most basic tropy adventure movie move in the history of movies.

Rey clearly excels in the first movie in fantastic ways beyond what Luke does. That's fine, and fine to be perfectly happy with the script doing this. Trying to pretend that the characters respective journeys are the same, let alone the nonsense about Luke doing crazy shit that Rey couldn't, is just unsupported by - well, anyone's eyes.

Then we add the tired bullshit that anyone who finds the script a bit too much in this regard for this hero's journey is a sexist, and you have a seriously stupid dialogue around here. That some of us then revert to jokes at this point like the knights of sue should be pretty unsurprising.

I find your argument unconvincing and disingenuous given the examples you cite. But hey, they are kids movies produced by white slavers, so who cares.

Yeah, no male hero characters in fiction ever get called out on this. Go find a rothfuss thread and you definitely won't see 95% of the posts being specifically about Mary Sue Gary Stu. Yup, totally not a thing, you cleverly exposed all of us secret sexists.

I'm not sure how to respond, because you have not actually responded to a single, specific point I made. Instead you are re-stating your previously established beliefs, disconnected from my detailed response to your post. I made that post in good faith, drawing clear, direct parallels between the actions of each character (parallels the TFA is intentionally, making, BTW). I also did not bring up any accusations of ulterior motives, nor even imply any. Yet here you are acting like I did.

You raise a stink over Rey skillfully flying a ship she's never flown, yet Luke doing exactly that is the entire fucking climax of A New Hope? And somehow I'm the disingenuous one?

 

[aBarreras]

Sure but not only lost to obiwan as this guy mentioned lol.

i think that anakin losing to dooku wasnt that significant after how he is defeated literally the first minutes of episode 3.

maybe if anakin would had keep dealing with dooku through episode 3.

but as i see it now, it is just a loss so he could have his rematch

 

[Gunslinger]

And what about the first film?

Terrible writing duh... George Lucas is a bad script writer didn't you see AoTC? But Anakin is established to be force Jesus. Ultimate Mary Sue. Rey on the same level too. Only person out do them is Steven seagal.

 

[aBarreras]

another thing i find kinda funny is how people compare Rey against luke and anakin without having seen her trilogy yet, if she keeps winning and winning on episode 8 and 9, then fine, you will have your point, but people seem to compare the whole arc of other characters to the first chapter of Rey as if it is fair.

Anakin struggled!, Luke Struggled and trained! well yes, but not in the first film of the trilogy lol

 

[The Scollard]

we know it is because of what is between her legs.

i mean, i also asked if there is a male counterpart to a Mary Sue, it seems pretty blatant that we have a term for when a woman is "can do no wrong" in series or movies and no one seems to bat an eye with is a man doing it

It's called a Gary Stu, and a bunch of male characters get labelled it. One of the big examples of a character multiple people consider a Gary Stu is Kirito from the anime Sword Art Online. He's known for being over-powered as shit, and for pulling powers out of ass whenever the plot needs him to. The main character of any Neil Breen film also counts. A comedic and intentional version of this character is Dr. Rick Dagless M.D. from Garth Marenghi's Darkplace. These of all examples of the male version of a Mary Sue.

 

[The Scollard]

another thing i find kinda funny is how people compare Rey against luke and anakin without having seen her trilogy yet, if she keeps winning and winning on episode 8 and 9, then fine, you will have your point, but people seem to compare the whole arc of other characters to the first chapter of Rey as if it is fair.

Anakin struggled!, Luke Struggled and trained! well yes, but not in the first film of the trilogy lol

Except he did. He trained with Obi-Wan. He struggled a lot, being beaten up by the Sand Raiders, the men in the Cantina, needs R2-D2 to save his ass in the garbage chute, and is saved at the last second from Vader by Han. That's all in the first film.

 

[aBarreras]

It's called a Gary Stu, and a bunch of male characters get labelled it. One of the big examples of a character multiple people consider a Gary Stu is Kirito from the anime Sword Art Online. He's known for being over-powered as shit, and for pulling powers out of ass whenever the plot needs him to. The main character of any Neil Breen film also counts. A comedic and intentional version of this character is Dr. Rick Dagless M.D. from Garth Marenghi's Darkplace. These of all examples of the male version of a Mary Sue.

my point is in part is, why the originator of this criticism was a female character,
i mean why would you need different terms to the same trope.

Except he did. He trained with Obi-Wan. He struggled a lot, being beaten up by the Sand Raiders, the men in the Cantina, needs R2-D2 to save his ass in the garbage chute, and is saved at the last second from Vader by Han. That's all in the first film.

and Rey was ALONE for YEARS, didnt you see her house? with all the marked days?

 

[Pizza]

Luke shoots his force grappling hook and nails it first try

Obi wan has one too, and he's a trained jedi. Where did Luke acquire and learn to use that!!??!!!!1

 

[elrechazado]

I'm not sure how to respond, because you have not actually responded to a single, specific point I made. Instead you are re-stating your previously established beliefs, disconnected from my detailed response to your post. I made that post in good faith, drawing clear, direct parallels between the actions of each character (parallels the TFA is intentionally, making, BTW). I also did not bring up any accusations of ulterior motives, nor even imply any. Yet here you are acting like I did.

You raise a stink over Rey skillfully flying a ship she's never flown, yet Luke doing exactly that is the entire fucking climax of A New Hope? And somehow I'm the disingenuous one?

you ignored multiple points I made in my response as well the first time. Care to address Luke bring punked by sand people or bring almost killed at the bar? No need to pretend you went through my response point by point when you didn't do so. If you'd really like to compare their flying, shall we do that? I need to ask though, do you watch each movie and make an honest comparison between their flying? Luke does what is essentially a straight line bombing run flying in a straight line. Rey is literally jinking and juking all over flying in extremely tight spaces and threading the needle like she's a seamstress on speed. Did anyone watch anh and think, holy shit, look at his moves? I didn't. Maybe my future latent sexism was already manifesting itself. Watching tfa, I thought how amazing her flying was in those crazy confined spaces and how thrilling it was that she was doing it while dodging enemy fighter pilots.

I have no problem with either depiction. I have a problem with what I view as a lack of perspective by someone who thinks those two comparisons are in any way comparable to each other based on what was on screen. But if you get super reductive and say "well they both flew a ship", sure, I guess you win and there's zero difference.

 

[BuggyDClown]

We did, but no one has come close to explaining how what Rey does is in any way inconsistent with Luke's experience. So as long as people keep rolling that one out, I'll keep coming back to it.

Im glad to have somone else on my side in this.

 

[Surfinn]

Except he did. He trained with Obi-Wan. He struggled a lot, being beaten up by the Sand Raiders, the men in the Cantina, needs R2-D2 to save his ass in the garbage chute, and is saved at the last second from Vader by Han. That's all in the first film.

Rey struggles and gets her ass saved multiple times in the film.

When Finn meets her, he forces her to run as soon as he hears TIEs in the sky. Had he not been there, she probably would have been either captured or shot.

Then she got captured by Kylo; Finn decides to save her.

And if Finn wasn't around to save her for the Kylo/Rey confrontation, she'd be being trained by Snoke right now.

 

[The Scollard]

my point is in part is, why the originator of this criticism was a female character,
i mean why would you need different terms to the same problem.



and Rey was ALONE for YEARS, didnt you see her house? with all the marked days?

It's called a Mary Sue because the term was named after a character named Lt. Mary Sue from a Star Trek fanfic. She parodied the kind of characters that were appearing in a lot of fics in those days. Here's the full story that originated the term:

A TREKKIE'S TALE

By Paula Smith



"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her.
"Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?"
"Captain! I am not that kind of girl!"
"You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us."
Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?"
"The Captain told me to."
"Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."

Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies , Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.

And what does Rey being alone for years have to do anything?

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

you ignored multiple points I made in my response as well the first time. Care to address Luke bring punked by sand people or bring almost killed at the bar? No need to pretend you went through my response point by point when you didn't do so. If you'd really like to compare their flying, shall we do that? I need to ask though, do you watch each movie and make an honest comparison between their flying? Luke does what is essentially a straight line bombing run flying in a straight line. Rey is literally jinking and juking all over flying in extremely tight spaces and threading the needle like she's a seamstress on speed. Did anyone watch anh and think, holy shit, look at his moves? I didn't. Maybe my future latent sexism was already manifesting itself. Watching tfa, I thought how amazing her flying was in those crazy confined spaces and how thrilling it was that she was doing it while dodging enemy fighter pilots.

I have no problem with either depiction. I have a problem with what I view as a lack of perspective by someone who thinks those two comparisons are in any way comparable to each other based on what was on screen. But if you get super reductive and say "well they both flew a ship", sure, I guess you win and there's zero difference.

I just want to say I appreciate your posts and I think you've done a good job explaining what a few here seem to believe in unexplainable.

 

[GhaleonEB]

OK, I read through the last several pages and they're literally going in well worn circles at this point. Thread has run its course.