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Dark Souls 3 Story and Lore Discussion [Unmarked Spoilers]

Y

Yabberwocky

Member
I'd been a bit burnt out (I'm sure there is an ember pun in there) on the Souls world, so I hadn't been rushing into DS3 - this thread has made me quite excited for it again! Everything to do with Deep sounds great.

That being said, I am surprised at the level of procreating with dragons that seems to be going on. Step aside, Fire Emblem, there's a new king in town.
 
R

Raist

Banned
Noray said:
Abyss has never ever been referred to like that before. Again, they chose those words specifically. "Coming age of the deep sea" = \ = "age of the dark". New Londo was not a deep sea. It was a shithole the Sealers flooded to contain the Abyss in lieu of a better, more permanent solution (chosen undead killing the 4 kings which did fuck all, and come to think of it the chosen undead may be responsible for darkwraiths still being around).

Also I think the gooey things are humanity run wild. If you read the description of the dark sigil: "The darkness of humanity seeps from this bottomless pitch-back hole, the gap filled by the accumulation of the curse." Humanity is literally leaking out of Gundyr. It wants the fuck out. It seeks the flame, perhaps? The darksign sun, the pilgrim butterflies flying towards it - humanity is being drawn to the sun, the biggest source of flame left, like moths to the flame. That's what I've got, anyway. Everything is dead, and what isn't dead is pissed the fuck off at being alive in this shit world.

My biggest question is still what it means to be "unkindled", and what makes them different from Undead, ie. why don't we Hollow? We still bear the Darksign:
Click to expand...

I mean "reference" as in metaphor for it.
There's an undeniable connection between humanity, the dark soul and the abyss. It's pretty much made evident in the first game.

The fact that the flame is fading once again, there's that weird black goo, the lords of cinder turned their back on the flame, darkwraiths are freely running around, and so on, just means that the Abyss, or "evil" (but I don't think it's necessarily Evil per se, just from the gods' perspective) is trying to take over the world and start the age of dark. And once again you're being manipulated into linking the flame.
 
N

Noray

Unconfirmed Member
Raist said:
I mean "reference" as in metaphor for it.
There's an undeniable connection between humanity, the dark soul and the abyss. It's pretty much made evident in the first game.
Click to expand...

I know that, but how does that support a reading of "deep sea" as "abyss"? I just don't see it. You're obviously welcome to interpret it that way though, it's vague enough you can make of it what you will and I don't expect we will find out more about it.
 
Z

Zocano

Member
They've stated they are going to make 2 DLCs and if they stick to that I imagine one will be in (about) Londor and the other about Ocelotte/The Queen
 
I

into.it.over.it

Member
Apologies if this has been mentioned already but the Ring of the Sun's First Born has some info The Nameless King

Ring of the Sun's first born, who inherited the light of Gwyn, the first lord.

Greatly boosts miracles.

The Sun's first born was once a god of war, until he was stripped of his stature as punishment for his foolishness. No wonder his very name has slipped from the annals of history.
Click to expand...

At first i thought this implied Solaire (if he was the first born, like i used to assume he was) was the one who linked the fire during DS1 but now definitely it reinforces the TNK=First Born idea, especially the bit about his name slipping from the annals of history.

Has anthing been found on why the Lords refused to return to their thrones but Ludleth didn't?
 
S

Seyavesh

Member
Lulubop said:
Solaire mentioned at all?

Thee deep stuff and possible age of water is most interesting to me
Click to expand...

his equipment in the game and mentions him but never by name
the man stays a nameless legend

also how are people still arguing that the dark/abyss is good after they played the DS1 and 2+DLC?
i figured those cleared that theory up right well- that place is fuckeddd
 
SargerusBR

SargerusBR

I love Pokken!
If UD Firelink is not in the past then how Gundyr's armor states that:

Gundyr, or the Belated Champion, was bested by an unknown warrior. He then became sheath to a coiled sword in hopes that someday, the First Flame would be linked once more
Click to expand...

Unknown warrior is the player character, pretty similar to DS2 which the PC was the one that defeated the Giant Lord.
 
A

Auctopus

Member
MayhemStrider said:
And just like the rest of the games there isnt going to be enough evidence to support anything regarding the physical laws and differentiating what is dream/illusion or reality of where these games take place, any position we take on any question regarding this is going to have some logic to shut it down on either side of an argument.
Click to expand...

Ugh, I hate this idea. It's not a choose-your-own-adventure. Souls games have evidence in dialogue, the environment and item descriptions as to what's going on. It's not make up your own soppy fan-fiction.

Yeah, you could say but what if everything was a dream? Well, you could say that for a fucking Uncharted game too.

People really need to back up the speculation with at least one piece of evidence in the game.

N.B. Old Dragonslayer was just non-sensical, shameless fan-service. I wouldn't try and fit it in. He's literally there so it's a bit of a challenge to get the covenant.
 
I

Iva Demilcol

Member
SargerusBR said:
If UD Firelink is not in the past then how Gundyr's armor states that:



Unknown warrior is the player character, pretty similar to DS2 which the PC was the one that defeated the Giant Lord.
Click to expand...


Yes, that seems to be the case.

Also, in the previous area (forgot its name) we find a blessing made by the queen of Lothric. Does that suggest that the Queen ended up in the dark firelink shrine?

What if she's still there?
 
R

Raist

Banned
Noray said:
I know that, but how does that support a reading of "deep sea" as "abyss"? I just don't see it. You're obviously welcome to interpret it that way though, it's vague enough you can make of it what you will and I don't expect we will find out more about it.
Click to expand...

Dunno, makes more sense to me than allusions to Bloodborne...
Especially with the "Deep gem" being used to infuse weapons with dark attribute.
 
G

GwyndolinCinder

Member
So theory;
- Firekeeper was @ untended graves firelink in the pass, where the abyss curse originates from
- She escapes taking the Coiled sword with here, therefore breaking it and leaving behind the coiled sword fragment
- She makes her way to top of the high wall, where the player first gets to lothric, she spreads the curse to those she meets along the way
- Places the partly broken coiled sword into the lord vessel and teleports to firelink shrine in the future/other world/next cycle?
- When the player character teleports back the abyss goo hasn't spread much because its only just happened

Sidenote: just got this armor, never seen it before
12970788_1089868271093061_4727469552650731205_o.jpg


Was on the corspe that gives you way of dragon emote
 
SargerusBR

SargerusBR

I love Pokken!
On the Deep vs Abyss thing, IMO: the Deep is not the Abyss, both are related to the Dark, but while the Deep can be considered "Pure Dark", the Abyss is a twisted form of Dark, just like Chaos was a twisted version of the Fire.
 
S

Soriku

Junior Member
Btw, if anyone is playing with headphones...in Road of Sacrifices, what are those creepy sound effects in the background O_O With the weird wailing and such. It only starts once you reach the crab swamp, after the second bonfire. What is going on in this area?
 
Z

Zocano

Member
Iva Demilcol said:
Yes, that seems to be the case.

Also, in the previous area (forgot its name) we find a blessing made by the queen of Lothric. Does that suggest that the Queen ended up in the dark firelink shrine?

What if she's still there?
Click to expand...

No, the ring just says she left it there for the next unkindled

Queen is MIA along with bird lady
 
T

tookhster

Member
I don't know if the Prima Guide is canon, but it calls those wired, flying things Undead Dragons, which makes sense.

Also, another small thing I noted was that the huge monster that attacks you when you first enter the ice area before Anor Londo is called Suhlyvahn's Beast. That monster was really cool.

And something else I always wondered is why Aldrich is the only boss that uses a theme from DS1 (Moonlight Butterfly and Gwyndolin theme). I know it makes sense since he took over Gwyndolin's stuff, as well as some other enemies, but why that particular theme?
 
Z

Zocano

Member
tookhster said:
And something else I always wondered is why Aldrich is the only boss that uses a theme from DS1 (Moonlight Butterfly and Gwyndolin theme). I know it makes sense since he took over Gwyndolin's stuff, as well as some other enemies, but why that particular theme?
Click to expand...

Soul of Cinder phase 2 is literally just Gwyn again even with the music? Without the parries, though.
 
I

Iva Demilcol

Member
GwyndolinCinder said:
Sidenote: just got this armor, never seen it before
12970788_1089868271093061_4727469552650731205_o.jpg


Was on the corspe that gives you way of dragon emote
Click to expand...

Isn't the Drakeblood Knight set from Dark Souls II?

Zocano said:
No, the ring just says she left it there for the next unkindled

Queen is MIA along with bird lady
Click to expand...

Yeah, totally forgot about that one.

Now that you mention Bird Lady... Would that be the reason why Yhorshka asks you how you reached the top of the tower?
 
Z

Zocano

Member
I'm also annoyed that the red-eyed enemies are no different than their standard counterparts. Seems like a weird thing to make and place for specific enemies and then there's just nothing actually to it.
 
G

GorillaJu

Member
Knights of the Sunless Realms:

Sirris, and originally her grandfather Hodrick, before he went mad, were holy Knights of the Sunless Realms. Sirris has an armor set with a white feminine veil as well as draping veils over the shoulders, very similar to Yorshka's apparel.

Yorshka represents the Darkmoon Company, and bestows the Darkmoon Blade miracle to its top Knights. The player, after killing 30 PVP invaders as a Darkmoon Knight, is given the Darkmoon Blade miracle. Sirris also has the Darkmoon Blade miracle, indicating that she, and perhaps her grandfather before her, were the last Knight of Yorshka's company who she says disappeared. The Sunless set says "Sunless Knights serve the nameless moon" so I think that's about as solid as you can get as a canon relationship.

What's interesting is that in the Borreal Valley, the moon is always out, as per the item description of the doll. It almost seems as if Sirris' "Sunless Realms" could be the Borreal Valley but I'm inclined to believe they aren't so misleading as to give us two names for the same place. Perhaps the Borreal Valley is one of several places in the Sunless Realms.

Engraved with a brilliant flame crest that burns brightly within the order's customary sunset colors. This design symbolizes those who both harbor and oppose the power of flame.
Click to expand...

So there are these holy Knights fighting against the power of flame. They envisage a world without sun, without fire. Yet there's nothing to lead you to believe they want the abyss, or an age of dark. The Sunset Talisman, which Sirris uses to cast miracles, mentions

Talisman given to the knights of the Sunless Realms, who serve the nameless moon.

Scales with intelligence, which is rare for a miracle catalyst, but makes it compatible with Dark. In the Sunless Realms, this fact is related first as an initial warning.
Click to expand...

that while there is the byproduct of Dark being accessible through servings he moon, they are warned of this potential—it is not encouraged.

There could be a spell cast by Gwyndolin before Aldrich ate him that causes the sun to constantly be in a state of total eclipse, as evidenced in Irithyll. Pure speculation, that last bit. I just wonder why he sun is permanently eclipsing in Irithyll.
 
N

Nova Bovington

Member
Noray said:
I know that, but how does that support a reading of "deep sea" as "abyss"? I just don't see it. You're obviously welcome to interpret it that way though, it's vague enough you can make of it what you will and I don't expect we will find out more about it.
Click to expand...

The word "abyss" is intrinsically tied to our understanding of the ocean. It's used to describe a layer of the ocean so Deep no light or warmth reaches it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyssal_zone

Furthermore, Aldrich himself might be loosely based on a monster in the 1989 James Cameron movie called The Abyss, which deals with similar themes as the Deep in DS3. And we all know how much Miyazaki likes his references.

To further support that last bit, both the movie and the "Deep" in DS3 deal with what essentially boils down to a Nietzsche quote in literal form.
And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.
Click to expand...
and in case of DS3, also:
...throw roses into the abyss and say: 'Here is my thanks to the monster who didn't succeed in swallowing me alive.'
Click to expand...

Edit:
into.it.over.it said:
Has anthing been found on why the Lords refused to return to their thrones but Ludleth didn't?
Click to expand...
Having once linked the First Flame I imagine he was quite an impressive person. Now, however, he is just a shell of his former self and sacrificing himself as kindling is the only way for him to have some semblance of his former glory. He certainly says as much.

Also he has no legs so it's not like he could've just left even if he wanted to.
 
O

Ordinaryundone

Member
nynt9 said:
What are some DS2 connections you've noticed?
Click to expand...

Tons of 'em. Lots of item sets and weapons from DS2 or reference DS2 background lore. Creighton and Alva show up as invaders. Karla the Witch is very likely another daughter of Manus going by her ashes' description. Cat Ring directly references Sweet Shalquoir. Lucatiel's stuff is in the game too. Gilligan the Laddersmith's corpse is found in the Profaned Capitol (with his shitty ladders). You can see ghosts in Irithyll that look a LOT like the Knights of Eleum Loyce. There is a Giant Tree outside of Firelink Shrine. Also, it might be stretching a bit but Oceiros mentions a child named "Ocelotte" who is apparently a baby born of dragons. The spelling is awfully similar to Shanalotte, the Emerald Herald, who was a human (looking, anyway) born of dragons.
 
R

Raist

Banned
Zocano said:
I'm also annoyed that the red-eyed enemies are no different than their standard counterparts. Seems like a weird thing to make and place for specific enemies and then there's just nothing actually to it.
Click to expand...

They have more HP and hit harder. Another reference to Demon's Souls.
 
M

MajinSweet4

Member
Ordinaryundone said:
Tons of 'em. Lots of item sets and weapons from DS2 or reference DS2 background lore. Creighton and Alva show up as invaders. Karla the Witch is very likely another daughter of Manus going by her ashes' description. Cat Ring directly references Sweet Shalquoir. Lucatiel's stuff is in the game too. Gilligan the Laddersmith's corpse is found in the Profaned Capitol (with his shitty ladders). You can see ghosts in Irithyll that look a LOT like the Knights of Eleum Loyce. There is a Giant Tree outside of Firelink Shrine. Also, it might be stretching a bit but Oceiros mentions a child named "Ocelotte" who is apparently a baby born of dragons. The spelling is awfully similar to Shanalotte, the Emerald Herald, who was a human (looking, anyway) born of dragons.
Click to expand...

Adding on to this, I can't help but feel that the final boss is basically a Dark Souls 2 player character going for a Dark Lord ending. Everything you do leading up to him is a lot like going through all the Dark Souls 2 DLC. Defeating all these different Kings who once had the chance to link the fire. So it makes sense thematically that you need to do this to attain the strength needed to fight him. On top of that, the fact that he embodies Gwyn seems to confirm that. The Dark Souls 2 player character gets the lord souls, and unlike the Dark Souls 1 player character, he can consume them.
 
T

tintin1029

Member
The Serpents need to make an appearance in whatever DLC that comes out.

There probably the most important part of Dark Souls' Lore.

Dark 1 kinda implies that they were the ones behind it all the whole time (Not the curse, but the whole cycle bullshit). So I was really surprised that they didn't make some kind of appearance aside from one statue.
 
R

Ruff

Member
Whats the story with the Pilgrim Butterflies that resurrect Dragonslayer Armor? I notice they share names with the Pilgrims you'd see dead everywhere and they themselves have a larval appearance what with the stone chained to their back.

Then again all over Lothric you'd see dead bodies becoming tree like in form so maybe it's from that?

Edit: See they've been mentioned before, mb
 
L

LordHuffnPuff

Neo Member
Yorshka was imprisoned by the Pontiff and is awaiting being devoured by Aldritch. The fact that there's a church named after her in the lower city belays suppositions as to her being a mistake, hidden, or that sort of thing.

She gives you more information if you progress the covenant. Good luck with that though seriously, ears are hard to come by at the higher levels :x
 
Zomba13

Zomba13

Member
Seyavesh said:
ps what the fuck are those giant wiry winged things you can see flying all over lothric castle

i never got to see one close up or fight one- the only time they got remotely close was in the dragonslayer armor fight

you can imagine my surprise when a guy in dragonslayer armor got helped out by some weird ass looking dragons

also what's up with all the people turning into trees. is that a DS2 reference?
Click to expand...

Those things are the freakiest fucking things in the game. Like they just make me shiver. They are so weird and gross and wrong, and they are floating in the sky. They look like roots or a dragons nervous system.
 
L

LogicalFallacy

Member
I think the Twin Princes have some interesting lore potential that I imagine will be expanded upon in the DLC like everything else.

Soul of the Twin Princes

The two princes rejected their duty to become Lords of Cinder, and settled down far, far away to watch the fire fade from a distance. A curse makers their souls nearly inseparable.
Click to expand...

Lorian's Greatsword

Before Lorian embraced his brother's curse, he was a knight who single-handedly slayed the demon prince, but the victory eternally scorched his sword with flame.
Click to expand...

Lothric's Holy Sword

Young Lothric was meant to be a champion, and was expected to wield this platinum sword, but some things will remain distant dreams forever.
Click to expand...

Lothric has some sort of affliction that disallows him from melee combat. He appears very frail during the boss battle, having to piggyback on his brother for transportation. He uses magic instead of swordplay because he doesn't have the strength to use swords. Why? What affliction does he have? Who gave it to him, or did he have it from birth?

Why are Sulyvahn's two most trusted combatants, the Dancer and Vordt, stationed in Lothric High Wall? What does Sulyvahn have to gain by having Dancer guarding the entrance to Lothric Castle? Does he want to hide Oceiros/The Princes? Or perhaps protect them instead? That would make two Lords of Cinder that Sulyvahn has placed obstacles in front of- Aldrich with himself, the Princes with the Dancer. Does he have a personal interest in keeping these guys safe?

It seems that Lothric royalty had great plans for Prince Lothric, planning to have him wield the Holy Sword/be a traditional warrior like Lorian, but something went awry. There's a bunch of Kaathe/Frampt statues throughout the exterior of Lothric Castle for some reason. Perhaps the serpents are related to the Prince's curse?

I've spent a lot of time here talking about Prince Lothric, but Prince Lorian doesn't seem capable of moving his legs either. he's on his knees the whole fight. For some reason both brothers are lacking leg movement. It's rather interesting.
 
A

ASilentProtagonist

Member
tintin1029 said:
The Serpents need to make an appearance in whatever DLC that comes out.

There probably the most important part of Dark Souls' Lore.

Dark 1 kinda implies that they were the ones behind it all the whole time (Not the curse, but the whole cycle bullshit). So I was really surprised that they didn't make some kind of appearance aside from one statue.
Click to expand...

Hopefully we do. Yuria's master is DarkStalker Kaathe.

So who has Aldrich devoured besides Gwyndolin, and Nito? Any evidence behind Chosen Undead being one of the victims?
 
S

Seyavesh

Member
ASilentProtagonist said:
So who has Aldrich devoured besides Gwyndolin, and Nito? Any evidence behind Chosen Undead being one of the victims?
Click to expand...

unlikely because the collective of chosen undeads across the universes or whatever are really blatantly the final boss- everything about that fight is a throwback to ds1's player builds

it's kind of awesome that they finally got that ideal final fight they wanted in ds1 where it's a nice challenge that any build has a chance of winning at and it turns out it's basically just fighting the coolest hacker in pvp
 
I

Iva Demilcol

Member
I just visited again the Archives to fight that Pontiff Sullivan knight that's inside there... What is very interesting is that after you beat it you gain access to a small corridor where you fin a magic spell... The spell says that the first scholar that always had doubts about linking the fire was the personal tutor of Prince Lothric!!!

That would explain why he is reluctant to become a lord of Cinder: Aldia convinced him that letting the fire die was the best course of action!


Found what I was talking about: it's the description of soul mass:

"Sorcery imparted by the first of the Scholars,
when Lothric and the Grand Archives were but young. Fires a torrential volley of souls.

The first of the Scholars doubted the linking of the fire, and was alleged to be a private mentor to the Royal Prince."
 
L

LordCanti

Member
Ken said:
Actually never mind. Gertrude was probably held in the weird bird cage next to the slug mage huh.
Click to expand...

I don't remember the slug mage but yeah there's a giant bird cage in a sort of hidden area of Lothric Castle with a corpse that is surrounded by white feathers. You loot a miracle off it that mentions how Gertrude was visited by "angels" and that their visit caused her to found a heretical religion and get herself locked up. I'm not sure what the serpents agenda was in visiting her if they were the angels in question.

I really hope they're in the DLC.
 
A

Auctopus

Member
- Miyazaki referencing a 1989 James Cameron film for the case of one reference? Uhhhh... - bit of a stretch.

- People keep saying that Aldrich devoured Nito as well, where's that from?

Ken said:
The final stretch to the Princes gave me Demon's 1-1 vibes.
Click to expand...

Me too.

LordCanti said:
I don't remember the slug mage but yeah there's a giant bird cage in a sort of hidden area of Lothric Castle with a corpse that is surrounded by white feathers. You loot a miracle off it that mentions how Gertrude was visited by "angels" and that their visit caused her to found a heretical religion and get herself locked up. I'm not sure what the serpents agenda was in visiting her if they were the angels in question.

I really hope they're in the DLC.
Click to expand...

Where's the heretical religion bit from?

From the "Winged Armor" and "Divine Pillars of Light", it sounds like Gertrude worshipperd these "divine messengers" and was locked away for it. But in her cell (where the actual feathers are), she was visited by an 'Angel' who taught her Divine Pillars of Light.


Additionally, has anyone figured out what's strewn across the Two Princes boss room? Is it ashes or feathers?
 
D

Derpot

Member
Auctopus said:
- People keep saying that Aldrich devoured Nito as well, where's that from?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. I read a lot of people saying Aldrich devoured Nito. My bf thinks the same because of Aldrich's appearance since he has skeletons all over his body. But I just think they're corpses that belonged to his victims.
 
N

Noray

Unconfirmed Member
People need to stop saying Aldrich devoured Nito because it isn't true and there is absolutely zero evidence for it. Nito was killed by the Chosen Undead, you can't skip that fight, unlike Gwyndolyn. Aldritch did not devour anyone from DS1 that we know of except Gwyndolyn. Where are people even getting this idea?

Likewise, there is zero evidence for "The coming age of the deep sea" referring to the Abyss, because the Abyss has NEVER had any connection to the deep sea, and nothing in the cathedral of the Deep suggests that that place has any ties to the Abyss. Support it with some evidence.

You want some references directly to the Abyss in DS3, look no further than Wolnir.

A holy sword eroded by the Abyss. When Wolnir fell to the Abyss, he was gripped by a fear of true darkness, and pleaded to the gods for the first time.

This holy sword, together with three armlets stripped from the corpses of clerics, gave him some semblance of comfort.

Skill: Wrath of the Gods
Thrust weapon into earth to emit powerful shockwave. The wrath of those swallowed by the Abyss is a thing to be wary of indeed.
Click to expand...

Compare to Dorhys' Gnawing:

Miracle of Dorhys the deranged evangelist.

Summons great insect swarm to feast on foes.

Those who linger too long on the brink of the Deep will often slip. Dorhys is sure to have wallowed in this darkness, intoxicated by its peril.
Click to expand...

Notice how one very directly references the Abyss, and this one doesn't. From uses languages deliberately and for a reason.
 
A

Auctopus

Member
Lol, so there was no evidence and people were just saying it? I saw people throwing Nashandra in there too. Please people, all you need to do is throw in item descriptions or evidence.

Also, I don't remember any bodies or skeletons on Aldrich. Isn't it just his/her spine going down its slug body?
 
M

MajinSweet4

Member
Noray said:
People need to stop saying Aldrich devoured Nito because it isn't true and there is absolutely zero evidence for it. Nito was killed by the Chosen Undead, you can't skip that fight, unlike Gwyndolyn. Aldritch did not devour anyone from DS1 that we know of except Gwyndolyn. Where are people even getting this idea?
Click to expand...

Yep, and if Aldritch somehow devoured Nito, then the fire wouldn't become linked during the times of Dark Souls 1, and that majorly conflicts Dark Souls 2 and 3.
 
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