Halo 5 had better retention and bigger playerbase than Reach and 4. So H5's approach works better than whatever those games did, and Menke has stated why he isn't sure that H3's approach would work nowadays.
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Halo 5: Guardians |OT5| Is HaloGAF irrelevant now?
- Thread starter sir_dany12
- Start date
Halo 5 had better retention and bigger playerbase than Reach and 4. So H5's approach works better than whatever those games did, and Menke has stated why he isn't sure that H3's approach would work nowadays.
Just curious about this, can you explain? Since Bestheda gave away all the DLCs for free, the game changed so much it became my favorite FPS on this gen, both solo and multiplayer.
For the retention, maybe (even if I still doubt about this to be honest), but bigger playerbase than Reach? I honestly don't trust 343 for this one.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
I LOVED the single player. Beat it 4 times already. Almost made it through a Nightmare run, but my game glitched and I fell through the map and died haha.
I have to admit I haven't played the game in a while online. I don't care for loadouts in arena games. I also hated the demon rune as it disrupted the flow of the game in a negative way to me.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
I just really, really, really hope they don't do to Halo 6 what they did for Halo 3 after Halo 2. Halo 3 felt like a sluggish, clunky, more inconsistent version of Halo 2, and I'm of the opinion Halo 5 feels great to control, so hopefully they don't change things too much.
Just compare the time it takes to equip the Sword in Halo 2 vs Halo 3. Little changes like that to artificially slow the game down would crush my excitement for Halo 6.
Yeah, you were never really empowered as a solo player in Halo 2 or 3 unless you had a Rocket. Halo 5 at least gives some of that back thanks to the faster kill times and lower aim assist.
That's a shame. I'm still interested to try it out, maybe I'll find some interest in it like I did with DOOM recently. For what it is, DOOM's multiplayer is actually pretty decent. Compared to Halo though idk, it doesn't really quench my thirst the same way Halo does.
You should definitely give it a new try, the game changed pretty much since they offered the DLCs for free and altered the progression system. I thought the loadouts were crap when I first played DOOM online in 2016, and I didn't enjoy it, but now you have everything unlock from the beginning, you can really make your own play style while still being fair to other players.
I especially love using the BR-like in DOOM. I wouldn't say I prefer DOOM to past Halo, since the feeling is unmatched, but I really love DOOM compared to Halo 5. I'm having a ton of fun on it, love the fact it is really simple to handle while still needing some skills to master it, ala Halo. And the controls are soooo simple.
Okay, I will have to rise up again, like I did in the past, against this. This is not true numbers, they are talking with %, which change pretty much everything.
Let's say Halo 3 had 1 000 players for month n°1, then on month n°2, there are only 500 players left, so you got a player retention equal to 50%
Let's say Halo 5 had 500 players for month n°1, then on month n°2, there are only 450 players left, then the player retention is equal to 90%.
The players retention is bigger on Halo 5 while having less players than Halo 3.
And that's pretty much why I don't trust 343 for this topic. They use % (when they do....) when talking about those things, not true numbers, and trust me, % is really easy to manipulate. That's actually a big part of my job.
Yeah, for sure.
I'll never understand the clamoring to go back to Halo 3 on twitter.
rakkadakka
Member
The only thing I want out of Halo 6 is BTB getting the respect it deserves.
Most everything else in 5 was good to me.
Most everything else in 5 was good to me.
They're not saying Halo 5 has better retention than Halo 3. Best retention other than Halo 3, and highest monthly active player since Halo 3, which is not a percentage.
I've seen similar distrust(and salt) when TC's community manager revealed Gears 4 has bigger playerbase than Gears 3 did 9 months after release of each game.
Yeah you're right, I thought you were including Halo 3 like other did in the past. My bad.
Comparing Halo 5 to Reach and 4 population but not including Halo 3 in the poll makes this more believable, for sure.
Yeah you're right, I thought you were including Halo 3 like other did in the past. My bad.
Comparing Halo 5 to Reach and 4 population but not including Halo 3 in the poll makes this more believable, for sure.
Halo Reach had almost 900k active players one year after release. Halo 5 was top 15 or more at most played games. Halo 4 died also right out of the gate.
Nothing compares to H3 and Reach and never will.
Shit, you weren't even kidding, I didn't remember Reach had such good numbers:
Well, it makes even harder to trust 343 for this then...
Shit, you weren't even kidding, I didn't remember Reach had such good numbers:
Well, it makes even harder to trust 343 for this then...
I would be very surprised if H5 had more than 50K.
They will never give out numbers but for what it's worth, it was below and close to BF , and they are the only one who gives out numbers. Give or take.
I didn't find players to play with almost two years after release. Complete joke.
Anyone who thinks Halo will be back to its former glory , H3 and Reach population or even close to that is dreaming to put nicely.
No it didn't. Not even close. Halo 5's retention metric is skewed upward because it had a lower base population to start with. Fewer people played, but a higher percentage stuck around.
When your sales drop from 10mil to 5mil, there's a strong chance that the 5million remaining are the ones here through think and thin. (It also doesn't hurt that H5 MP is leagues better than 4)
Menke isn't sure halo3's approach would work... because there's no data either way... as no one has taken that approach since halo 3.
Halo 4's approach followed popular games. Halo 5's approach followed popular games. The result in both cases has been less than ideal.
Sometimes you can't just chase numbers and trends. Especially when those trends run counter to what makes your game tick. Why try to fit in instead of standing out?
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
How about this playlist structure:
Warzone
--Warzone (Standard)
--Warzone Assault
--Warzone Firefight
Arena (Ranked)
--Team Slayer
--HCS
Arena (Unranked)
--BTB
--Team Skirmish
--Action Sack
Drastically improve the Customs Browser so people can easily find games for Grifball, Infection, Snipers, etc. Other games, including Halo 1 and Halo 2 on PC, have well-functioning optimatch toggles to help people play what they want, so maybe Halo could benefit by adopting a similar model. Population concerns have always been a thing in matchmaking, and there's certainly merit to Menke's mentions of how most games handle matchmaking today, so why not try something like this imo. We don't need a lot of playlists, especially with settings we probably won't agree with (the great radar/sprint/autos debates).
idk.. I frequently think about this, how they could improve Halo 6 multiplayer by what playlists they offer and how they handle the Customs Browser.
Warzone
--Warzone (Standard)
--Warzone Assault
--Warzone Firefight
Arena (Ranked)
--Team Slayer
--HCS
Arena (Unranked)
--BTB
--Team Skirmish
--Action Sack
Firefight
--Classic (4p, lives, etc.)
--Invasion (6v6, similar design to Reach's Invasion loadouts, you can control multiple factions of the Covenant/Prometheans/Flood this time like in Gears Judgment's OverRun mode)
--Classic (4p, lives, etc.)
--Invasion (6v6, similar design to Reach's Invasion loadouts, you can control multiple factions of the Covenant/Prometheans/Flood this time like in Gears Judgment's OverRun mode)
Drastically improve the Customs Browser so people can easily find games for Grifball, Infection, Snipers, etc. Other games, including Halo 1 and Halo 2 on PC, have well-functioning optimatch toggles to help people play what they want, so maybe Halo could benefit by adopting a similar model. Population concerns have always been a thing in matchmaking, and there's certainly merit to Menke's mentions of how most games handle matchmaking today, so why not try something like this imo. We don't need a lot of playlists, especially with settings we probably won't agree with (the great radar/sprint/autos debates).
idk.. I frequently think about this, how they could improve Halo 6 multiplayer by what playlists they offer and how they handle the Customs Browser.
This is pretty good.
A more robust customs game browser would be better than any MM system could provide for community created and non-core gametypes. There's no way any dev can react quickly enough to the community in this regard. So we get stale playlists like action sack and BTB with BRs.
I've talked about this before, but imagine a system where players could have there own 'servers' and curate what maps, and gametypes show up.
Forexample, a well known forger could create a Pistol-start BTB server that has the best BTB maps the community has to offer. And the map selection could easily be updated when the community is ready, rather than waiting for 343's approval process.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
The dream right there ^
Hop on the Customs Browser, see some servers for BTB Pistol starts, proceed to be happy with the Halo franchise. The current implementation of the CB leaves a lot to be desired, although a solid first step for post launch support of a feature fans have been begging for since 2004.
Hop on the Customs Browser, see some servers for BTB Pistol starts, proceed to be happy with the Halo franchise. The current implementation of the CB leaves a lot to be desired, although a solid first step for post launch support of a feature fans have been begging for since 2004.
So essentially create autocued custom playlists? That would be kind of cool for stuff like customs nights and the like, reducing downtime fiddling with settings.
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean.
A Gaf customs night would be easy as pie. The leader just chooses what maps/gametypes are on the server, and any lobby created in the server would automatically rotate through the selection.
343 would just have to focus on keeping the core experience up to snuff, and making Forge better and better.
I even think there'd be an opportunity for monetization, sorta like Battlefields server rentals.
And it would be a dream for tournaments, especially if there was pausing functions. Like carrying over the stats as well after a 7 game series or something.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
This right here.
The sandbox, movement, gunplay, (aiming needs a bit of work) etc are all aces and these elements cater to casual and competitive just the same (which I consider the best in the series with H5). It's the maps and gametypes combined with poor matchmaking systems and networking/games being unreliable that deter players. Population causes a number of these issues but making hard development choices to drive more pool selections from player choices not dev made playlists is a huge key moving forward IMO.
Here's some thoughts on design and development through to matchmaking system:
1. Design, develop and sustain for specific audience and experiences:
1.1 slayer e.g. not ranked, old default Halo 4v4 with vehicles and asymmetrical
1.2 HCS e.g. ranked, symmetrical no vehicles, competitive sandbox, slayer, extraction, CTF
1.3 objective e.g. ranked, both 1 and 2 sided CTF/assault, ricochet
1.4 BTB & WZ FF e.g. medium scale dev maps or cut-downs of WZ maps (with & without REQS)
1.5 WZ e.g. large scale maps, invasion modes, tons of AI, REQs etc.
1.6 fun stuff e.g. action sack, grifball
1.7 Forge & community content e.g. blank maps and dev redesigning/collaboration
2. Generic small number of playlists using hybrid custom browser and/or player/party toggles combined with a dynamic voting system based on toggles/player pools in real time. This is the biggest point to me, Halo fans not getting to play what they want. The metrics gathered from this alone are invaluable let alone the game experience, quitters reduction and player retention such a system would deliver.
3. Refine & sustain e.g. have this all at launch and the long term free content releases to keep players coming back is tournaments, events, new maps, new gametypes, new weapons/vehicles, community driven content (with and without dev redesigning), rewards (double XP/REQ points weekend) etc.
4. Less is more, maps and gametypes need to be high quality, faster to design/iterate and be less cluttered in terms of resources/objects. Be open to community reworking of dev maps, this will lead to faster iterations, improved changes for specific audiences and deliver more maps faster. Openness will also help culling of bad ideas or poor performing maps to become viable for public release while introducing far more options and ideas for devs to select from.
5. Open a Windows 10 version with full scripting and modding, (re)publish content with dev redesign/polish to Xbox as well. The community and gaming in general has proven the more open a game framework the more a community gets involved and retained. Halo would be no different. Build and open the Halo gametypes scripting and objects/textures much the same way Minecraft and a marketplace have developed. Similar to REQs being paid, buy/sell dev and community content to build with but play with it for free? Reward community modders/builders with unique items or flyouts to the studio to be worked with etc.
6. Enable cross play with Xbox controller allowed only, use toggles so players can switch back and forth from PC, crossplay or Xbox only. Alternatively sell an official Halo mouse and keyboard Xbox peripheral developed with pros. Tertiary solve the gap between controller M/KB and game outcomes.
There's some ideas there to work within population issues, Halo fan choices/demands, lessen the load/misfires of dev made and sustained matchmaking while deliver far more flexibility for player choice and improving the Halo ecosystem e.g. reducing quitters and aligning player's experiences of maps or gametypes.
Wow, I didn't even think of that but hell yeah
Fahzgoolin
Banned
I'm still frustrated people think clamber is okay. It doesn't fit into the gameplay style and map design of this kind of game. More than any other move, it trivialize key positions on a map and also cheapens escapes with sprint. In some ways it counter acted the intention of the nerf on sprint/shield regen.
After a lot of thought, I think this one move is one of the biggest faults with the moment to moment encounters with Halo 5.
After a lot of thought, I think this one move is one of the biggest faults with the moment to moment encounters with Halo 5.
I have no issues with it, you can't shoot while you do it, it leaves you vulnerable for a while, and makes for a much more fluid and natural gameplay. After playing Halo 5, even if I adore Classic Halo, I would not want to go back to the stiff movement on previous Halo. Of course, this is just me, and I know each of us have our own preferences.
If something 343 can take from this chat is that there is no pleasing everyone, they might as well do the game they want to make.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
If Frankie had his way, default Halo would be SWAT. Only thing holding him back from throwing this franchise into the Sun is HaloGAF. You best believe that.
Masterz1337
Neo Member
I don't feel it's an inherently bad concept, just that the downside to doing it is non existent, and nearly every surface is clamber able. If the game were slowed down, I think slowing it down too would help immensely. Or perhaps having getting shot interrupt your clamber. There just needs to be more penalties for it to be used, so people would only want to use it in certain situations, rather than as a primary part of navigation.
My problem with clamber is that it contributes to the "push forward" gameplay promoted by sprint.
If it were just an extension of base jump height, I'd be ok with it. Instead, it limits HOW you can approach a jump because you have to be looking in a particular direction in order to pull it off.
It wouldn't be so bad if so many crucial jumps didnt REQUIRE clamber. But as it stands, it has too heavy a grip on map design and player agency (which is ironic because people argue that it liberates movement, when it actually, due to how maps have been scaled around it, it limits movement).
One good thing about clamber is that lifts don't HAVE to expose you for 3 seconds - You can use clamber to shorten your trip. if you had to clear your spartans waist in order to clamber and you could clamber in all directions, it would be fine IMO. If you didn't have to put your gun down, it would be even more fine.
LawBreakers is fucking fantastic. A brand new studio made a game that feels 100x better to play than anything 343 has ever made. I play it on the ps4 and think it's one of the best shooters we have had in a decade.
It's relatively easy to pick up, but hard as fuck to master - something Halo used to be.
I will redbox Halo 6 for the campaign but have zero expectations.
The way 343 treats the HCS was the final nail in the coffin.
No. Keep this as far as possible from Halo.
Go play Destiny if that's what you want, make a Titan to look like a Spartan, but don't bring grinding and loot (at least not the way loot is usually implemented in a game) to Halo.
Before that, they need to make a good Halo game that is fun to play. Pros are not even playing this game anymore and the new season starts soon.
Deputy Moonman
Member
Well it's largely unnecessary. If you design the maps with a certain jump height in mind, with crouch jumping and or using the sprint/stabilize jump method, clambor is really just something added for the sake of adding something. One thing clambor does do is forgive missing a jump, which I think does take away from the traditional feel of halo.
I can live with the way the game is concerning abilities but, if I was in charge, I'd take out sprint and clambor first thing. If you absolutely must have sprint in the game, make it a powerup where you can shoot while sprinting. They have got to make the game not require paddles to be competitive. There are too many abilities.
BizzyBum
Member
We need raids!
A hub world where we can converse with other Spartans and flaunt cool armor would be dope, too.
Spartan Ops was a cool idea. Very poorly executed. Then Destiny ate its lunch.
I'd be very much interested in a mode with a kilo5 vibe, where you and a few friends go on spec ops missions across the galaxy.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
More PvE coop play in Halo would be great, less grinding than Destiny and more strikes n raids.
Deputy Moonman
Member
Eh I dunno if id like that. You talking about departing the halo norm. Its why id love 343 to split up halo into 2 games. They can go all out crazy with new stuff while keeping traditional halo intact. Why this hasn't been done is a mystery.
Also, not sure what he did but RIP G0SU.
Use a portion of the Infinity, ripped straight from a Campaign map, as the hub world, using armor-less, nanocomposite bodysuit-clad Spartan IVs with a flexible character creator to add another layer of personalization. Let it serve as a gateway/setup for some Spartan OPs successor and other PvE offerings, or an alternate means of jumping into matchmaking lobbies for Arena & Warzone simulations.
... That could turn into such a mess if any single part of it's handled poorly.
Weren't there rumors about Halo 5 using the Infinity as some kind of hub world? Or was that some fake leak nonsense?
See, i don't really see this as departing from norms, rather expanding on the offering.
Halo already has a rich history with Co-op and PvE. Warzone proved the community is open to grinding for loot. This sounds like a merger of already accepted concepts.
Ricky Ricardo
Member
Playing Halo 5 in the customs browser with Halo 5 Forge is truly glorious
Just gotta get my aim up
Just gotta get my aim up
Fahzgoolin
Banned
Just imagine if that was there at launch... Hnnngggghhh
VincentMatts
Member
They need to work on the UI of the server browser next time, which is really horrible
I've said this before but I really hope 343 moves away from the traditional playlist system in future games.
Even a simple toggle based matchmaking system like Titanfall 2's is so much nicer to use. Combine that with a really fleshed out and nicely presented custom games browser and you've got a much more user friendly system.
Even a simple toggle based matchmaking system like Titanfall 2's is so much nicer to use. Combine that with a really fleshed out and nicely presented custom games browser and you've got a much more user friendly system.
I never knew that grinding was exclusive to Destiny!?!
New mode added to already existed ones, how is that a bad idea.
Also you gotta pull your head out wherever it stucked.
Things change, you have to add new things. New modes.
Take a look around and see what's new and hot. I don't wanna buy a game that dies one year after.
Halo has best universe out there, shame its trapped in a 4v4 crap.
This wasn't about Destiny but sure let's talk about it.
Two words: very successful. Halo now; not.
Yeah, Something like that.
Kilo5, or the Spartan program. This game has so much to offer.
They tried to get people busy and grinding in WZ, but it backfired. Lost more players than keeping.
I quoted Destiny because it's a FPS by the former Halo creators, with grind and loot. If that's what you want, then why don't you play this game?
Halo can innovate in its own manner, it doesn't have to copy, again, another game. It didn't work when they tried to emulate CoD, which was successful, isn't it? There is a lot of thing Halo can do unique to its universe.
And if you talk to the Destiny community, it's less about the loot and grinding than the social experience Destiny has been for 3 years. Halo can capture this feeling too, it doesn't need trickery like Destiny did with human basic behaviors.
I quoted Destiny because it's a FPS by the former Halo creators, with grind and loot. If that's what you want, then why don't you play this game?
Halo can innovate in its own manner, it doesn't have to copy, again, another game. It didn't work when they tried to emulate CoD, which was successful, isn't it? There is a lot of thing Halo can do unique to its universe.
And if you talk to the Destiny community, it's less about the loot and grinding than the social experience Destiny has been for 3 years. Halo can capture this feeling too, it doesn't need trickery like Destiny did with human basic behaviors.
Who the fuck is talking about Destiny?
All I said is Grind, you really have some reading problems pal.
We aren't saying copying anyone, you know be creative, you know creative?
And yeah, I do play Destiny. Amazing game and more fun to play. Better artstyle and levels.
Man, you gotta learn to read.... I say I quoted Destiny because it's somehow like Halo, with added grind and loot, and that would be a better suit for you if that's the thing you're looking for.
You say being creative? Yeah, by adding grind and loot? How creative dude... Like Raids wouldn't work on Halo, it's not a game suited for this (in its actual state). At least not Raids like this thing already exist on other games, you know, with DPS and bosses at the end of the mission.
Be creative, for sure, but keep Halo, well, Halo.