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University TA ‘Censured’ After Playing A Clip From A Debate About Transgender Pronoun

Wikipedia: "Genderqueer, also termed non-binary, is a catch-all category for gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or feminine*—*identities which are outside the gender binary and cisnormativity. Genderqueer people may express a combination of masculinity and femininity, or neither, in their gender expression."

I hate the use of transgendered as an umbrellaterm because it makes these discussion so tiresome. In the old days there were transsexuals, non-op transsexuals, and transgendered folks. Most TS people I met were transsexuals like me. I knew only one actual transgender, a gay man who lived full-time as a woman and didn't want an operation because she liked sex with men too much. I only knew one genderqueer/non binary person who saw his/herself as neither man nor woman. He/she was a post up TS who regretted the operation and is still an active genderqueer spouting radical left wing ideas that no one takes seriously. He/She is IMO a typical exponent of that lunatic fringe that give other transsexuals a bad name. Because actual pre-op/post-op transsexuals have 100% binary genders.

i mean

NB are by definition trans and your anecdotes do not change that. That doesn’t invalidate your experience as a trans person.

Transgender people have a “bad name” because of bigots who have been spewing transphobia long before NB people came to the fore. Blaming NB people for that is such an ugly distortion of reality. Cis people will always try to find a way to make you feel less than, they don’t need NB people to do it.
 
So Rasta went from, "Why can't you respect people? Call them what they want to be called." Too "No, you are not that, you are this. And you should know that, stupid." amazing.
?

Are you sure you are following?

“These people are trans too” =/= "No, you are not that, you are this. And you should know that, stupid."

Get out your thinking cap and let’s try again
 
i mean

NB are by definition trans and your anecdotes do not change that. That doesn’t invalidate your experience as a trans person.

Transgender people have a “bad nam because of bigots who have been spewing transphobia long before NB people came to the fore. Blaming NB people for that is such an ugly distortion of reality. Cis people will always try to find a way to make you feel less than, they don’t need NB people to do it.

And now we have the "All Cis people are bigots" line of thinking. Cmon dude, this is absurd.
 
And now we have the "All Cis people are bigots" line of thinking. Cmon dude, this is absurd.

Is transphobia not fronted by cis people? Do you understand how power structures work? Do we need to be breaking down something this simple? Do you need help finding your thinking cap 🧢?
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
My whole point was not that non-binary/genderqueer folk aren't transgendered (in the umbrellaterm definition of the word), but that they are a small section of the whole group. The ideas they propogate about gender neutral language and non binary gender pronouns aren't shared by the transsgendered community at large and certainly not by pre-op/post-op transsexuals.
 

Dunki

Member
Is transphobia not fronted by cis people? Do you understand how power structures work? Do we need to be breaking down something this simple? Do you need help finding your thinking cap ��?

Please do not use the word cisgendered since I think it is a term used for very derogatory language especially on the Internet.

Thank you.
 
My whole point was not that non-binary/genderqueer folk aren't transgendered (in the umbrellaterm definition of the word), but that they are a small section of the whole group. The ideas they propogate about gender neutral language and non binary gender pronouns aren't shared by the transsgendered community at large and certainly not by pre-op/post-op transsexuals.

Then why did you reply “amen” to a post that in no uncertain terms said that nb people are not trans?

I agree with the bold statement though. I wasn’t saying all trans people are nb. Just that NB people are also trans.
 
“NB people are transgender”

“No they’re NOT”

“Here is the definition, they are trans by definition”

“...Rastamentality is a troll. See this discussion.”

This is corny. If you don’t have an argument (you don’t btw in case you thought you did) then just don’t reply.
 

Dunki

Member
“NB people are transgender”

“No they’re NOT”

“Here is the definition, they are trans by definition”

“...Rastamentality is a troll. See this discussion.”

This is corny. If you don’t have an argument (you don’t btw in case you thought you did) then just don’t reply.

Ok serious question. We are talking here about acutal by law based pronouns right? So how many do you want? How will you implement this in letters education ? Will you be able to "sue" somoene because they dont use these pronouns?

Using them in daily live after you know this person is easy. However the dealing with unkown people be it on a business site or in normal life will be much more complicated. You need to ask yourself is it worth this? How much would this even cost etc.
 

mantidor

Member
You can invent all the pronouns you want, but you can't expect the billions of English speaking people, natives or not, to adopt them overnight, that is not how language works.
 

llien

Member
Apology:

Dear Lindsay,

I wanted to write to apologize to you for how the meeting we had proceeded. While I was not able to do so earlier due to confidentiality concerns, including your privacy as a grad student, now that the audio of the meeting is public I can say more. While I still cannot discuss the student concerns raised about the tutorial, everything that has happened since the meeting has given me occasion to rethink not only my approach to discussing the concerns that day, but many of the things I said in our meeting as well.

First, I wanted to say that when I was made aware of the concerns, I was told that the proper procedure would be to have an informal meeting to discuss it. In the process of arranging this, others indicated they should attend as well. This is one of the facets of working at a university, that meetings can often become de-facto committees due to relevant stakeholders being pulled in. My main concerns were finding out why a lesson on writing skills had become a political discussion, and making sure harm didn’t befall students. However, in not also prioritizing my mentorship role as the course director and your supervisor, I didn’t do enough to try to support you in this meeting, which I deeply regret. I should have seen how meeting with a panel of three people would be an intimidating situation and not invite a productive discussion. Had I tried harder to create a situation more conducive to talking these issues through, things might have gone very differently, but alas I did not.

Second, this entire occasion, and hearing from so many with passionate views on this issue from across the political spectrum, has made me seriously rethink some of the positions I took in the meeting. I made the argument that first year students, not studying this topic specifically, might not have the tool kit to unpack or process a controversial view such as Dr. Peterson’s, saying that such material might be better reserved for upper-year or grad courses. While I still think that such material needs to be handled carefully, especially so as to not infringe on the rights of any of our students or make them feel unwelcome in the learning environment, I believe you are right that making a space for controversial or oppositional views is important, and even essential to a university. The trick is how to properly contextualize such material. One way might be through having readings, or a lecture on the subject before discussion, but you are correct that first-years should be eligible to engage with societal debates in this way. Perhaps instead of the route I took I should have added further discussion in lecture, or supplementary readings. But instead I tried to make a point about the need to contextualize difficult material, and drew on the example of playing a speech by Hitler to do it. This was, obviously, a poorly chosen example. I meant to use it to drive home a point about context by saying here was material that would definitely need to be contextualized rather than presented neutrally, and instead I implied that Dr. Peterson is like Hitler, which is untrue and was never my intention. While I disagree strongly with many of Dr. Peterson’s academic positions and actions, the tired analogy does him a disservice and was the opposite of useful in our discussion.

Finally there is the question of teaching from a social justice perspective, which my course does attempt to do. I write elsewhere about reaching across the aisle to former alt-right figures as possible unexpected allies in the struggle to create a better more just society for all. But hearing all of the feedback from people and looking at the polarized response I am beginning to rethink so limited an approach. Maybe we ought to strive to reach across all of our multiple divisions to find points where we can discuss such issues, air multiple perspectives, and embrace the diversity of thought. And maybe I have to get out of an “us versus them” habit of thought to do this myself, and to think of the goal as more than simply advancing social justice, but social betterment and progress as a whole. While I think that such a pedagogical approach must still work not to marginalize some students, I think the issues are too complex to leave as a binary with protection of students on one side and protection of speech on the other. We should be striving for both, which is why I look forward to participating in Dr. MacLatchy’s task force looking into these issues at Laurier, and I hope perhaps you might consider doing the same so we could together work towards an even stronger institutional future.

I’m sorry this came to pass the way it did, and look forward to moving past this and continue working with you as my TA and perhaps in the future.

Yours Sincerely,

Dr. Nathan Rambukkana

http://complexsingularities.net/2017/11/21/open-letter-to-my-ta-lindsay-shepherd/

A million dollar question for me is, would this apology happen, if not the audio recording.
 

PSlayer

Member
Apology:


A million dollar question for me is, would this apology happen, if not the audio recording.

Probably not! Unfortunately universities are either afraid to handle the mob problem in a neutral, cool headed way or they have biased people on their ranks who would destroy this woman's career wasn't for the recordings.

As for the class,the fact that students can't handle a fucking dabate in a college is really worrisome.
 

TTOOLL

Member
Ben Shapiro is cool.

Professor Jordan Peterson is cool.

This whole "pronoun" debate is PURE bullshit. You can't invent words and force other people to use them, that's not how language works and it's pretty much dictatorial trying to do so.
 

sans_pants

avec_pénis
"Hey guyzzz!! I'm not Canadian, I have no idea what's going on up there with thier Igloo shaped universities, this isn't affecting any one I know...Never heard of anyone or anyplace in this story. So I'm gonna file it as a "nonissue" mmkay!"

If you want to lose your mind every time some minor issue bubbles up to Ben shapiro then enjoy your insanity
 

kingbean

Member
These threads could be interesting if the talk was just talk and not full of venom.

Everyone has opinions and everyone is allowed them, but to devolve to attacks instead of having a debate or conversation seems to be the norm.

It's really upsetting that people are so divided by their beliefs that it makes civil conversation a near impossibility.
 

AmaiMask

Banned
When teaching assistant Lindsay Shepherd played a 3-minute clip from a television show regarding the use of gender pronouns, she likely didn’t expect she’d be the subject of an official inquiry — but that’s exactly what happened.

On November 1, Shepherd, who teaches a "language use and writing skills component" tutorial for a larger communications class at Wilfrid Laurier University in Ontario, Canada, played a clip in which University of Toronto professor, Jordan Peterson, debates Nicholas Matte over gender pronouns on the Canadian TV show, "The Agenda."

In the clip, Peterson argues against what he calls "compelled speech" regarding transgender pronouns like "zir" and "xe."

According to Shepherd, she took a completely neutral stance, neither condemning nor applauding Peterson’s position. However, one or more of her approximately 48 students filed a complaint with the school. As a result, Shepherd was censured, and brought in for a meeting with course professor, Dr. Nathan Rambukkana, Dr. Herbert Pimlott, and Adria Joel, Acting Manager of Gendered Violence and Sexual Assault Prevention and Support at the Diversity and Equity Office.

The meeting, which took place on November 8, was secretly recorded.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/23804...ter-playing-clip-debate-frank-camp#exit-modal
When I see how much trouble certain people get for daring to challenge the idea of forcing people to comply with various pronouns it actually makes me view said individuals in a very negative light. It's to the point that I don't think I'd ever want to associate with a "zir" or whatever IRL, I'd want to avoid them like the plague. This type of nonsense may pass in other countries, but I promise you that if these SJWs actually think they can force the rest of us to respect these "xirs" with force, the complete opposite will happen and they'll just end up being shunned and oppressed by society.

America isn't a nation that's going to allow itself to be guilt tripped by any group.
 

Greedings

Member
You can invent all the pronouns you want, but you can't expect the billions of English speaking people, natives or not, to adopt them overnight, that is not how language works.

Especially considering that trans people make up less than 1% of the population.

For such a tiny minority, they sure a crazy loud about their pronouns. I've lived on this earth for 30 years, moved country twice, moved city countless times and never have I spoken to a trans person.

Pronouns aren't an issue for the vast majority of people.
 

kingbean

Member
Especially considering that trans people make up less than 1% of the population.

For such a tiny minority, they sure a crazy loud about their pronouns. I've lived on this earth for 30 years, moved country twice, moved city countless times and never have I spoken to a trans person.

Pronouns aren't an issue for the vast majority of people.

For sure. I'm not here to belittle a person's problems but pronouns seem to be a very minor issue in the grand scheme of things, even for a trans person. I would imagine that basic decency and tolerance and acceptance would be something that would be more important.
Being treated as a normal human being imo is vastly more important than getting a pronoun.

And considering that 50 years ago even a conversation like this would seem unheard of shows that the world changes. It might not be as fast as some people want, but change grinds onwards regardless.
 

Elginer

Member
No they are NOT.

Most of us who actually transition and live as the other sex DO NOT CONSIDER OURSELVES TRANS.

I was born male, I transitioned to a female and I am now female. Tell your story walking buddy,with telling us who we are.

YOU ARE WRONG

You can be straight, gay or bi, all this gender neutral/non-binary nonsense is getting absurd, as I stated earlier its just this generations metrosexual.

The point is that you do not feel like the sex you are born with so you become the opposite sex, not some in between attention seeking virtue signaler

I just want to say how refreshing it is to hear this from someone who actually transitioned.

I can completely understand being born in the wrong body but I work with some 20 something yeah olds who have so many names for things and say there are at least 5 genders that I just go wtf. The last thing I want is to ever offend anyone but if you're a single person wanting to be referred to as them or they you've lost me. Shit is just at that point some attention seeking bullshit.

If anything, I'd think I'd be offensive to anyone that actually has become a man or woman.
 

mantidor

Member
Especially considering that trans people make up less than 1% of the population.

For such a tiny minority, they sure a crazy loud about their pronouns. I've lived on this earth for 30 years, moved country twice, moved city countless times and never have I spoken to a trans person.

Pronouns aren't an issue for the vast majority of people.

Let's not generalize, some trans people also think some of this is excessive. I'm ok with using their preferred pronoun and is not a crazy request, it's downright awful to not do so, but using new ones is another thing entirely.

You might also have crossed paths with plenty of trans people but didn't know it, it's not such a small minority, have you seen people with dwarfism or albinism? Their percentage in the population is smaller than trans people and you still have probably seen one or two people with such conditions.
 

kingbean

Member
I'm ok with using their preferred pronoun and is not a crazy request

Basic human decency. No reason not to treat other people with basic kindness. It's what helps keep society from devolving into madness lol.

Could you imagine going to a grocery store and every person was just blurting out crude judgements of everyone else in the store? It'd be nuts.

A coworker of mine is MtF trans and is currently in the middle of hormone treatment. She still looks like the he that she was. Many of my coworkers talk shit about her in private and when they do interact it's very impersonal.
I couldn't imagine how it would feel to be in that awkward phase and how hellish it would be if people just came out and said terrible shit in that critical time.

I also don't understand why someone would want to hurt someone that way anyway.
 

Airola

Member
Apology:



http://complexsingularities.net/2017/11/21/open-letter-to-my-ta-lindsay-shepherd/

A million dollar question for me is, would this apology happen, if not the audio recording.

No, never.

He said what he said because he is afraid to be called out by someone in public.
And now he apologized because he is afraid to be called out by someone in public.

This mindset calculates how many morality points they can get in social media. The actions are based on those points. Apology only happens if the points gained are about to get lower and if the apology can keep the points higher than what keeping the original position would do.

EDIT:
I have to say though that the apology was kinda good, but it still doesn't remove the fact that what originally happened was amazingly stupid and should've never happened in the first place. There is something very wrong if he only realized the wrongdoing after the recording went viral. He was absolutely ok with the way the student was handled and probably was very much ok with continuing to have that kind of standards in the university. That is troubling to me and made me approach this issue with the snark I did.
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Especially considering that trans people make up less than 1% of the population.

For such a tiny minority, they sure a crazy loud about their pronouns. I've lived on this earth for 30 years, moved country twice, moved city countless times and never have I spoken to a trans person.

Pronouns aren't an issue for the vast majority of people.

It's not an issue for most actual trans people in fact. Anyone who wants to live as the other sex permanently (which includes taking hormones the rest of your life plus a sex change operation) doesn't want to live a gender neutral life. Quite the contrary in fact.
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Basic human decency. No reason not to treat other people with basic kindness. It's what helps keep society from devolving into madness lol.

Could you imagine going to a grocery store and every person was just blurting out crude judgements of everyone else in the store? It'd be nuts.

A coworker of mine is MtF trans and is currently in the middle of hormone treatment. She still looks like the he that she was. Many of my coworkers talk shit about her in private and when they do interact it's very impersonal.
I couldn't imagine how it would feel to be in that awkward phase and how hellish it would be if people just came out and said terrible shit in that critical time.

I also don't understand why someone would want to hurt someone that way anyway.

The discussion linked in the OP isn't about being decent and saying miss to a M2F trans, it's about the tiny group of genderfluid/genderqueers/etc who want the rest of the world to use made up pronouns like per, vie, fae, etc. That's what Peterson was protesting against.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
It can't, its outrage for outrages sake. As a MtF i solely identify as female and find all this xer/xi shit preposterous.

Unpopular opinion - if you are "trans" but make no effort to be a woman other than wearing a dress you are a man in a dress.

Non binary is just this decades metrosexual

The funny part is now you guys are outraged at the outraged for outraged sake. Like you do realize that right?

You as a cis person, can't define what being trans is. Like it's just silly on its face for you to say what you said.
 
Remember when the left was the bastion of freedom of speech and the right were the one's restricting it to suit there own agenda and control any dialogue around it, pepperidge farm remembers.

It's sad to see the only political group i identify with moving down this road of regressive thinking and becoming the very fascists they constantly accuse everyone else of being.
 

daniell

Member
Then you're not all for respecting trans folks. Hope this helps.

You wanting dictate other peoples speech means you dont respect other people.

And actually you dont respect trans people because you forcing people into compelled speech just pisses them off on the whole trans folk thing.. And the trans people are not even at fault for what professional "victims" that feel offended for others and then attack people "for others" (but really for your ego) do.
 

Relativ9

Member
The funny part is now you guys are outraged at the outraged for outraged sake. Like you do realize that right?

You as a cis person, can't define what being trans is. Like it's just silly on its face for you to say what you said.

Read the whole thread, I'm pretty sure Rocket Number 22 states at multiple points that he/she (not sure which sorry Rocket) is trans.

Also this whole "you are cis so you can't..." thing is part of what people hate about the "regressive left". In general people tend to view other groups of people who want to restrict what you can think, say or feel as dangerous and bad. It will make reasonable people stand on the side of homophobes and Nazis because "while I don't agree with what you say, I will fight to the death for your right to say it".

We're not talking about respecting people and calling them whatever they want, we're talking about a bill that would make it punishable by law not to do so. And there is by the way very little evidence to suggest this would actually help non-binary people, if anything it's more likely to demonise them further because of public resentment towards the thought-police.
 
The funny part is now you guys are outraged at the outraged for outraged sake. Like you do realize that right?

You as a cis person, can't define what being trans is. Like it's just silly on its face for you to say what you said.

I don't think you understand what CIS means or have any reading comprehension....
 

Dunki

Member
I don't think you understand what CIS means or have any reading comprehension....

for many people cis is a way to actually insult people who are not trans best if you also can throw a you are a cis white male in it and its complete.

I rarely see people who use this term in a normal way.
 

llien

Member
You as a cis person, can't define what being trans is.

You are responding to a user that mentioned being trans (post #22).

What some in this thread might have missed is that we are talking not about all trans people, but only those, who are not gender binary (do not identify as either male or female)
 
OP posted an awful source and holds bigoted opinions on non-binary people (opinions that kind of remind me of the kinds of things said about trans people back in the day and to this day even).
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
You are responding to a user that mentioned being trans (post #22).

What some in this thread might have missed is that we are talking not about all trans people, but only those, who are not gender binary (do not identify as either male or female)

And in particular those non binary trans people who insist on made-up gender pronouns. The linked Youtube video was a discussion about the Canadian C-16 bill which would make using the wrong pronouns (i.e. not just "he" or "she", but also those artificial pronouns like per, ve, zie, xe, they (as a singular form), etc) a hate crime. Which is in my view as a transperson myself completely ridiculous.But then again, I find the whole genderqueer movement completely ridiculous.
 

Dunki

Member
OP posted an awful source and holds bigoted opinions on non-binary people (opinions that kind of remind me of the kinds of things said about trans people back in the day and to this day even).

So the apology was not showing that this was wrong? Or how people no matter who they are, male, female, trans nb can have different opinions you might or might not find offensive?

Here is the point: Let people discuss it on even terms. They have opinions you should not agree with but at least respect. If you do not show respect to their opinions no matter how wrong you think they are, why should the other one respect your view or opinion.
 

Sesha

Member
I'm all for respecting transfolk but new pronouns is the wrong way to go about things.

You wanting dictate other peoples speech means you dont respect other people.

And actually you dont respect trans people because you forcing people into compelled speech just pisses them off on the whole trans folk thing.. And the trans people are not even at fault for what professional "victims" that feel offended for others and then attack people "for others" (but really for your ego) do.

You being a snowflake about not wanting to learn a couple of new words does not mean you aren't being disrespectful of non-binary people. You most likely know thousands of words that you never use, so learning a few more shouldn't be an issue. Heck, most likely you'll never meet the people in question so you won't need to properly learn most of them. It's as simple as when meeting a person that identifies as non-binary, asking them their preferred pronoun, and then use that.

Freaking out about not wanting to accept alternative gender pronouns is such a non-issue.
 

Dunki

Member
You being a snowflake about not wanting to learn a couple of new words does not mean you aren't being disrespectful of non-binary people. You most likely know thousands of words that you never use, so learning a few more shouldn't be an issue. Heck, most likely you'll never meet the people in question so you won't need to properly learn most of them. It's as simple as when meeting a person that identifies as non-binary, asking them their preferred pronoun, and then use that.

Freaking out about not wanting to accept alternative gender pronouns is such a non-issue.
As before it is much more difficult if you use them on a legal way. Example. Integration into the education system. Every 6 year old knows what a male and female is. Now imagine if they have to learn a 3rd or maybe a 4th and 5th pronoun like some people actually arguing. How will you explain the use of it? What will happen if you do not use it with business letters? Can people sue you for it etc. ? All these issues need regulations. You are not inventing a new word you define a new gender into our language.

It is way more complicated than it looks and it will also cost a ton of money to make these changes. If you use it privately thats a whole different story and non issue
 
You being a snowflake about not wanting to learn a couple of new words does not mean you aren't being disrespectful of non-binary people. You most likely know thousands of words that you never use, so learning a few more shouldn't be an issue. Heck, most likely you'll never meet the people in question so you won't need to properly learn most of them. It's as simple as when meeting a person that identifies as non-binary, asking them their preferred pronoun, and then use that.

Freaking out about not wanting to accept alternative gender pronouns is such a non-issue.

This is a strawman that people constantly push to avoid the real debate at hand. The real thing people have issues with is legally forcing to use certain terms. That's what the video in question that the teacher showed was primarily about. As mentioned before in this thread, if people choose to use these words, no one is going to really care or try to stop them. But mandating something like this into law is absurd and creates various legal gray areas that no one really knows how to solve. Simple example, is someone a criminal if they use the wrong pronoun by accident whilst striking up a random conversation with a stranger? This is a far cry from something like hate speech where it's pretty obvious to tell the intent of someone harassing someone. Saying "Sup man?" to someone who you didn't know doesn't want to be called man is a totally different thing.
 

Paterson

Banned
The only thing dumber than getting in trouble over playing that clip is the notion that we need more pronouns. Hilarious.
 
As before it is much more difficult if you use them on a legal way. Example. Integration into the education system. Every 6 year old knows what a male and female is. Now imagine if they have to learn a 3rd or maybe a 4th and 5th pronoun like some people actually arguing. How will you explain the use of it? What will happen if you do not use it with business letters? Can people sue you for it etc. ? All these issues need regulations. You are not inventing a new word you define a new gender into our language.

It is way more complicated than it looks and it will also cost a ton of money to make these changes. If you use it privately thats a whole different story and non issue

The best argument is "I don't understand it, therefore kids can't understand it."

This argument is no different than those made to say that gay people and trans people are too complicated to be taught to children. Kids are, like, smarter than you seem to think.

It's amazing to watch NeoGAF change. It used to be people joking about the genderless dystopia, now people are unironically terrified of it.
 

Dunki

Member
The best argument is "I don't understand it, therefore kids can't understand it."

This argument is no different than those made to say that gay people and trans people are too complicated to be taught to children. Kids are, like, smarter than you seem to think.

It's amazing to watch NeoGAF change. It used to be people joking about the genderless dystopia, now people are unironically terrified of it.

Yes kids are smart and they also have no prejudices until a certain age. However. We are talking here about complex situations not even 1% of the population face. And then you try to implement it in the language. Yes maybe one more pronoun will not confuse them. But as I said before some pledge here for the whole package which are like 5 different ones so far. Good luck trying to teach kids when they have to use it and when. Furrthermore. You have to change books, you have to change teaching methids you have to do this in all 50 states in America . You have to vote for it etc. This is not a small one week issue you want to force people to do.

Also I do not think you understand how much legal stuff has to be done if you want to implement it into our systems.As I and many people said before. Using it on a private matter is a non issue. Peterson is not arguing to use it if you want to. He is arguing against forcing people to use it.


I think you need to think and inform yourself first what has to be done on a legal way to do this. Then we can talk. Oh and I am not terrified by it I am just a realist not a dreamer with no sense of reality like you seem to be.

edit: Also honestly think that this issue should be a very low priority one regarding trans and nb peoples rights and issues. It is just not worth it the amount of work and money you rather should use differently to help these people. Be it more medical physchological support. Building Informationcenters etc.
 
Yes kids are smart and they also have no prejudices until a certain age. However. We are talking here about complex situations not even 1% of the population face. And then you try to implement it in the language. Yes maybe one more pronoun will not confuse them. But as I said before some pledge here for the whole package which are like 5 different ones so far. Good luck trying to teach kids when they have to use it and when.

Also I do not think you understand how much legal stuff has to be done if you want to implement it into our systems.As I and many people said before. Using it on a private matter is a non issue. Peterson is not arguing to use it if you want to. He is arguing against forcing people to use it.

I think you need to think and inform yourself first what has to be done on a legal way to do this. Then we can talk. Oh and I am not terrified by it I am just a realist not a dreamer with no sense of reality like you seem to be.

So what you're saying is that you have a basis as to why children would not be able to handle more pronouns? Because the alternative is that you are extrapolating your own personal difficulties and projecting them on children without any actual basis to it. As far as Jordan Peterson goes...

"He emphasized the state should halt funding neo-Marxist faculties and courses, while students should avoid neo-Marxist disciplines like women's studies, ethnic studies and racial studies, as well other courses "corrupted" by the ideology such as sociology, anthropology and English literature." (ba

"He stated that his objection to the bill was based on potential free speech implications if the Criminal Code is amended, as he claimed he could then be prosecuted under provincial human rights laws if he refuses to call a transsexual student or faculty member by their preferred pronoun."

"When asked in September 2016 if he would comply with the request of a student to use a preferred pronoun, Peterson said "it would depend on how they asked me ... If I could detect that there was a chip on their shoulder, or that they were [asking me] with political motives, then I would probably say no ... If I could have a conversation like the one we're having now, I could probably meet them on an equal level"." - Essentially declares that he would withhold preferred pronouns if he didn't like the person or their behavior, which would be akin to being racist to someone because you don't like them.

Jordan Peterson is also neck-deep in criticisms of Marxism, and attempts to draw comparisons between Bill C-16 to the deaths of 100 million people (a disputed number, and a strange way by which to tally deaths since we do not, for instance, tally deaths "caused by capitalism").

So yeah, Jordan Peterson's views on this subject are not valuable, especially in light of the fact that he has some pretty crap views on trans people period. And ESPECIALLY considering that Jordan Peterson does not actually understand the bill itself:

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/qbnamx/no-the-trans-rights-bill-doesnt-criminalize-free-speech

"Bill C-16 adds the words "gender identity or expression" to a list of protected classes under the Canadian Human Rights Act and to the Criminal Code.

The Human Rights Act protects certain groups, prone to discrimination, from being fired, evicted, or otherwise discriminated against in federally-regulated workplaces, housing projects, or through Ottawa-run services.

"The addition to the human rights code is not about criminalizing anything," said University of Toronto professor Brenda Cossman, pointing out that violating the human rights code can only be punished through fines or non-financial remedies, like changing hiring practices, but never jail time.

The Supreme Court, in a 2013 case, found that for someone to run afoul of the Human Rights Act, it needed to be actively encouraging hatred.

"People are free to debate or speak out against the rights or characteristics of vulnerable groups, but not in a manner which is objectively seen to expose them to hatred and its harmful effects," the top court ruled.

What's more, Ontario—where Peterson works—already has human rights protections for transgender people in the provincial human rights code, thanks to a bill, virtually identical to C-16, that was passed by the Ontario legislature in 2012."

The concern over Bill C-16 is the same fear mongering about any rights bills. People were saying much the same thing about laws protecting discrimination of trans people in the workforce. What makes this different? What precedence demonstrates that Bill C-16 will have the result that Peterson claims?
 
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