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RPG Codex's Fallout 4 review (spoilers)

A

Arulan

Member
It shouldn't come as a surprise to those familiar with RPG Codex's high standards, to learn that the game wasn't received favorably over there. Even more so if you remember Fallout 3's reception, and the No Mutants Allowed review by one of their members, who just so happens to be the designer of one of 2015's best RPGs: The Age of Decadence. But to the point, the review is lengthy and goes into a lot of detail, and I highly recommend giving it a read.

13 Shocking Facts about Fallout 4 That Will Forever Change the Way You Think about RPGs

There can be no question that Fallout 4 represents an important milestone in RPG history. Ask the average mainstream gamer what the best designed, most atmospheric, most memorable, best written, and overall biggest and greatest RPG of 2015 was, and they are almost certain to reply: “The Witcher 3”. However, if you ask them about the best-selling RPG of the year, they will assuredly point to Fallout 4. With a record-shattering 12 million copies shipped on launch day alone, Fallout 4 is poised to overtake Skyrim as the best-selling RPG of all time and become an important cultural touchstone for the next generation of RPG publishers, PR agencies, developers, and fans alike. In the years to come, Fallout 4 will be crucially important to everything we say and do as an RPG community, and every member of these forums should spend at least a few dozen hours of their time playing and studying the game.

For those of you who are currently unwilling or unable to invest precious leisure time in Fallout 4, I have drawn up a short list of basic facts about the game. If you wish to understand the unique combination of design elements that makes up one the most successful RPGs of our times, you should study this list closely.
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...it's perfectly logical that a decent, functional dialogue system would allow for a variable number of possible dialogue choices. That's how most RPGs have implemented their dialogues, and that's a perfectly sensible way to do it. Unfortunately, Bethesda chose a different path in Fallout 4 – here, you are always presented with exactly four dialogue options, no matter what situation you are in. This kind of strict formal requirement straightjackets the entire dialogue system; every single conversation node has been twisted into a neat “pick one out of four” pattern. Like so many things about Fallout 4, it's completely unclear to me why the designers have made this choice; maybe it's because controllers have four primary action buttons. Whatever the reasoning, the end result is a broken and unnatural dialogue system that is bloated with pointless choices.
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...As it is, I got the feeling that Bethesda were more concerned with making the game look fun and visceral and exciting and “Whoa!” instead of actually doing the hard work of making it play that way.
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Ultimately, the environments kept me entertained for longer than anything else in the game. The game world kept showing me things I hadn't seen before, whether it was an old satellite array standing alone in the wasteland, a mysterious pyramid towering over an irradiated crater, a humorously overlit sunrise scene, a terribly low-res crawlspace texture, or simply a room with some cool looking shadows on the walls. The release reviews have pointed to weak graphics as one of the worst elements of the game; in proud Codex tradition, I've come away with the opposite impression. The visual design of Fallout 4 is far more entertaining and varied than any of its gameplay systems.
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...Intelligence gives 3% bonus experience per level and reduces the number of possible solutions shown in the hacking minigame. And that's it. That's what being intelligent means in the sequel to Fallout 1 and 2. Why couldn't they just remove the damn stat altogether? To be perfectly fair, Intelligence is also used for the three only (!) proper stat checks that I found in the entire game world, but that's not exactly a reason to rejoice and praise the Incline.
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...It's no hyperbole to say that the writers at Bethesda are some of the worst storytellers in the AAA gaming segment. They are fatally attached to the idea of making a cartoon world full of cartoon characters living through Very Serious Stories. Unfortunately, this combination of narrative elements clashes rather badly, and results in a bunch of utterly idiotic stories that positively dare the player to find any sort of intelligent design behind them.
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And that's where I see the fundamental problem with Bethesda's handling of the Fallout setting; they don't seem to have any real interest in clearly defining and developing their world. Combine the kidnapping plot, the synthetic conspiracy, the faction warfare, the alien menace, the eldritch horrors from beyond the veil, the various serial killers, the zany robots, the office romances, the cults, the flying sailing vessels, the kid that spends 210 years in a fridge, as well as all the other bullocks, and you're left with a totally incoherent, fundamentally meaningless unholy mess. Nothing in this setting holds up to the slightest bit of scrutiny; none of the characters, none of the factions, none of the basic elements of world design seem to have any careful thought put into them.
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D

Davilmar

Member
This is going to take me a while to read, but I have always respected the depth and manner in which they could aptly characterize what I'm thinking from games. Just looking over at the first three bullet points, I'm seeing a lot of the same shortcomings I have been used to from Bethesda whenever they push out an RPG. Reminds me of how much better Obsidian managed to understand Fallout as a lore, video game, and RPG as a genre.
 
T

TheUnsunghero26

Member
Ask the average mainstream gamer what the best designed, most atmospheric, most memorable, best written, and overall biggest and greatest RPG of 2015 was, and they are almost certain to reply: “The Witcher 3”. However, if you ask them about the best-selling RPG of the year, they will assuredly point to Fallout 4.
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Amazing.
 
2

2SeeKU

Member
Some of those negatives (cartoon characters living through Very Serious Stories, always presented with exactly four dialogue options e.c.t), are reasons l like the game. I'm not sure why FO4 cops the slack it does.
 
C

Crimsonclaw111

Member
2SeeKU said:
Some of those negatives (cartoon characters living through Very Serious Stories, always presented with exactly four dialogue options e.c.t), are reasons l like the game. I'm not sure why FO4 cops the slack it does.
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Because it seems like it's a step back from Fallout 3 and especially New Vegas from what I've heard/read.
 
T

Tommyhawk

Member
CaptainGyro said:
not to stick up for fallout 4, but the codex actually dislikes everything
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The Age of Decadence and Underrail (both 2015 titles) are pretty popular with the Codex.


I've to read the whole review but F4 was also a very big disappointment for me (I'm a Fallout fan since Fallout 1).
 
H

Hedge

Member
Hah, that is something of a title.

Their passage about dialogue and how stats influence them is largely my biggest gripe with the game. I know Bethesda arent't great writers, but reducing interactions down to that standard setup makes the writing more glaringly bad.

I love these reviewers, though.
 
K

Kallor

Member
Never did complete the game. First Fallout or Bethesda title I've lost interest in. Even modding the game doesn't stir up any interest for me. Its just so devoid of all the great things of previous fallout titles. It's a bad fallout for sure, but it doesn't even feel like a good Bethesda game.
 
2

2SeeKU

Member
Crimsonclaw111 said:
Because it seems like it's a step back from Fallout 3 and especially New Vegas from what I've heard/read.
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It's not a step back, if anything it's a game that just doesn't step in any direction from it's predecessor. I'm playing through it at the moment and it's great. It's essentially just a reskinned FO3, which isn't a bad thing. Why ruin a good thing l say!
 
H

Hektor

Member
2SeeKU said:
It's not a step back, if anything it's a game that just doesn't step in any direction from it's predecessor. I'm playing through it at the moment and it's great. It's essentially just a reskinned FO3, which isn't a bad thing. Why ruin a good thing l say!
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How is the dialoguesystem not a step back? Or the skill system? Or how your approach to nearly all quests is reduced to the single option of fighting your way through?
 
V

vocab

Member
Such a bad game. I remember doing the big dig and being blown away how much time was wasted in doing that quest and it was basically for nothing.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
RPGCodex said:
it's completely unclear to me why the designers have made this choice; maybe it's because controllers have four primary action buttons.
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Why would they make this "maybe" claim, when it's cleary bogus? Fallout 3 and New Vegas were released on console too. This was a design choice that had nothing to do with controllers, but it reeks of "blaming consoles for watering down mah RPG" nonsense.

Of course they are right that it's a step backwards, though. The way they changed the dialogue tree is enough to completely turn me off the game --
Hektor said:
Or how your approach to nearly all quests is reduced to the single option of fighting your way through?
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-- And this, too. I heard too many people say the same thing, making me extremely wary. I might pick it up when it's like $2 on Steam in a few years. Hey, it's what I paid for New Vegas. :D
 
S

Spinifex

Member
This could have been the GOTG if it had a better dialog system and actually good quests. I don't think there was a single quest that didn't involve killing.

In Fallout: New Vegas every quest in the game bar one could be completed without killing.
 
A

Arulan

Member
I suppose it was bound to happen, but we should be able to discuss RPG Codex's contributions to discussion on RPGs without having to resort to bringing up their political leanings or views on social issues, however repugnant you believe them to be.

Durante said:
You should have used the review title for the thread ;)
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In hindsight, you're probably right. ;)

2SeeKU said:
It's not a step back, if anything it's a game that just doesn't step in any direction from it's predecessor. I'm playing through it at the moment and it's great. It's essentially just a reskinned FO3, which isn't a bad thing. Why ruin a good thing l say!
Click to expand...

The problem is that Fallout 3 was already mediocre. They then decided to double-down on attempting to write an emotional and cinematic storyline (that worked out so well in Fallout 3) with a voiced protagonist, which directly leads to the limited player-choice, and extremely simplified dialogue system. It's a step back in almost every way that relates to RPG design, and taking steps in other directions with limited success.
 
MMaRsu

MMaRsu

Banned
Such a major dissapointment this game. When the footage of streams started coming out showing the new MC and his/her va work and the options provided I knew thos was going to be a total letdown
 
S

Sotha_Sil

Member
I had a lot of fun with the game, but in the end it was a rather shallow and forgettable experience. For a venerable RPG franchise like Fallout, that's just not good enough.

I do agree that they need a lot more cohesion in how the stories around the world are presented, and not quite so many preposterous situations/characters.
 
P

PetriP-TNT

Member
My $0.02 regarding the article from the Steam thread:

Knurek said:
Durante alert:

13 Shocking Facts about Fallout 4 That Will Forever Change the Way You Think about RPGs
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Eeeh RPGCodex alert but he's pretty much right on every point. Fallout 4 is a terrible RPG, terrible open world game and most of all terrible game by most metrics. It's extremely shallow, it has the worst dialog system in any modern game, but at least the world is nice every now and then.

Sure, I might have played my 50 hours wrong, but I couldn't care two shits about crafting, or the story (especially the main line story) and most missions were just grinding, shooting and grinding some more without any challenge. I know that there's a base for a good game somewhere in there because the high points are REALLY GOOD. They are just so far and in-between you really need to be more explorative than I was to find them.

This doesn't mean that someone else couldn't love the game and I totally understand those who did. But for me Fallout 4 didn't respect my time at all and thus I don't really have any respect for the game myself. I almost went for the DLC bait and switch for hopes of getting something better, but luckily someone talked me out of that in the DLC thread.
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TL;DR: Fallout 4 is a bad game, I do understand why some people could really love it
 
Bl@de

Bl@de

Member
Fallout 4 was my last Bethesda Game. A complete disappointment after NV. Unless they change everything... but I doubt it. They will rather simplify it even more with the next Elder Scrolls.
 
S

sappyday

Member
2SeeKU said:
It's not a step back, if anything it's a game that just doesn't step in any direction from it's predecessor. I'm playing through it at the moment and it's great. It's essentially just a reskinned FO3, which isn't a bad thing. Why ruin a good thing l say!
Click to expand...

It's a huge step back. The dialogue system itself is enough for me to consider it a step back. Then you consider the skill system/level up system.
 
R

Rad-

Member
2SeeKU said:
It's not a step back, if anything it's a game that just doesn't step in any direction from it's predecessor. I'm playing through it at the moment and it's great. It's essentially just a reskinned FO3, which isn't a bad thing. Why ruin a good thing l say!
Click to expand...

Combat for one is much, much better than in F3 or NV.
 
A

Achire

Member
I wonder what the Codex hive mind thinks of The Witcher 3. They pretty much sold out if they like it. Kind of surprised it took them this long to review Fallout 4, considering that the site was originally a spin-off from a Fallout fan-site (DAC).

100% agreed on the final paragraph, Bethesda doesn't "get" Fallout and they can't make a believable word like Fallout 1 or New Vegas. Yet Fallout 4 for me was a really pleasant surprise, and I've enjoyed it. It's like Bethesda took a look at New Vegas, said "oh we can do that", failed miserably and yet still managed to improve greatly upon Fallout 3. The writing is miles better and there are actually cool characters like Kellogg and Nick. My only big problem is with the quest design, which has been simplified way too far. As for the dialogue system, the system worked great in Alpha Protocol with more reactivity than almost any other RPG. The issue is not the system, the issue is the dialogue itself and the quest design (e.g. low number of stat checks).
 
R

RPGam3r

Member
I avoid RPG Codex, and one of the primary reasons is their stick up the ass with Bethesda. We get it you don't like their stuff, and furthermore calling out that it's not hyperbole doesn't actually mean it's not hyperbole. I don't mean to be rude, but what a terrible site...
 
B

batfax

Member
I played FO4 for the first time a week or so ago thanks to Steam Sharing and found myself seriously disappointed in even getting a Skyrim-like experience where after 8 hours I still hadn't even found a quest that didn't take longer than a few minutes with no substance at all after the initial stuff in the main one. I was thinking about maybe trying to make one of those "LTTP" topics, but I figured I should at least go back and play long enough to find quests.

Checking out this review, I guess I can at least maybe meet some okay characters whenever I try it again, but it looks like my first impressions were right on the money if this is much to go by. Really hope they do another "New Vegas" in a few years so I can get my Fallout fix... heck, I kind of wish they just brought Obsidian in early on and did it as a joint effort in the first place.

At least the combat's much more fun than 3/NV, even if lacking tactical options.
 
Z

zeox

Member
TheExorzist said:
Did Fallout 4 really sell better than Witcher 3? IIRC Bethesda never released any numbers, which makes me assume it didn't.
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The only thing we know for sure is that the numbers for Fallout 4 are about double the Witcher 3 numbers on Steamspy.
 
Trickster

Trickster

Member
2SeeKU said:
Some of those negatives (cartoon characters living through Very Serious Stories, always presented with exactly four dialogue options e.c.t), are reasons l like the game. I'm not sure why FO4 cops the slack it does.
Click to expand...

You like only getting 4 dialogue options. Options that more often than not are really just 2 options disguised as 4? Not to mention how barebones the things you can do via dialogue in the game is.
 
A

aravuus

Member
Rad- said:
Combat for one is much, much better than in F3 or NV.
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As crazy as this is going to sound, I actually disagree. FO4 is a shooter, leveling up hardly felt like it made me stronger or weaker in combat.

With NV (and 3, I suppose), leveling up felt like it had a very big impact on how strong you are in combat, even if you were using the same weapons you've been using before. And that's really what I want from an RPG.
 
T

texhnolyze

Banned
Bl@de said:
Fallout 4 was my last Bethesda Game. A complete disappointment after NV. Unless they change everything... but I doubt it. They will rather simplify it even more with the next Elder Scrolls.
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It's their most successful Fallout game ever, and (maybe) even more successful than Skyrim at launch. It would be stupid for them to not use Fallout 4 as the benchmark for their future games. They don't care if they're losing grumpy old fans if they can gain a lot more new fans to their franchises.
 
C

CecilRousso

Member
texhnolyze said:
It's their most successful Fallout game ever, and (maybe) even more successful than Skyrim at launch. It would be stupid for them to not use Fallout 4 as the benchmark for their future games. They don't care if they're losing grumpy old fans if they can gain a lot more new fans to their franchises.
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They really should try and get both set of fans. It's not impossible. It's not like having some of the ideas from New Vegas in this would have resulted in millions less sold copies.
 
P

Puppen

Banned
Fallout 4 is not really an RPG, it's just a shooter with some superficial RPG-looking features that are only skin deep. The skills ultimately mean nothing and dialogue options mean nothing. This review is pretty on point.
 
C

CecilRousso

Member
Puppen said:
Fallout 4 is not really an RPG, it's just a shooter with some superficial RPG-looking features that are only skin deep. The skills ultimately mean nothing and dialogue options mean nothing. This review is pretty on point.
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Yeah I thought it felt more like a Diablo game, then what I expected from a Fallout game. But apparently a lot of people like that.
 
K

Kuraudo

Banned
texhnolyze said:
It's their most successful Fallout game ever, and (maybe) even more successful than Skyrim at launch. It would be stupid for them to not use Fallout 4 as the benchmark for their future games. They don't care if they're losing grumpy old fans if they can gain a lot more new fans to their franchises.
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I'm not so sure. They must be aware that the reception for the game wasn't great, even by the media. If I was used to being awarded hundreds of GOTY awards for each new release and then only ended up with one or two, I'd probably be disappointed and look at how reclaim my position. Caring about sales and caring about quality don't have to be mutually exclusive, and I think these guys should be able to take onboard feedback and hopefully find a sweetspot between the two.
 
D

dity

Member
PetriP-TNT said:
I did 50 hours too, but time is a really bad measurement of quality or amount of entertainment. I went on just to see if it gets better. (It didn't)
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I did the ending of the game last, and that was honestly the most disappointing aspect of the game. The latter half of the game's story is pretty balls. BUT, I enjoyed the other shit I could do. Hence 90 hours.

Puppen said:
So did I. Doesn't really mean anything. I didn't particularly love anything I did in it besides the Valentine stuff, even the landscapes were forgettable which was never the case in F3, NV, or Skyrim.
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Putting in 90 hours means something to me. I ain't gonna spend 90 hours on something I don't enjoy. I don't got time for that.
 
P

Puppen

Banned
dity said:
And yet I still clocked somewhere around 90 hours of gameplay. Hm.
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So did I. Doesn't really mean anything. I didn't particularly love anything I did in it besides the Valentine stuff, even the landscapes were forgettable which was never the case in F3, NV, or Skyrim.
 
V

Vazduh

Member
I enjoyed the game for the most part, but I also forgot it by the time I was finished. For me it's definitely the weakest mainline Fallout game so far.

And that crafting/settlement system? Talk about useless filler. I expected something important, but what I got was Sims. No wonder my girl friends loved the game, all they talked about was crafting bedrooms, decorating houses and attracting settlers to their settlements. One of them spent dozens of hours just doing that, and not side-quests or main, story quests. Mess
 
V

Vulcano's assistant

Banned
Still believe I got the better end of the deal by almost completely ignoring the main quest and never discovering how really shallow the games is in that aspect.
 
S

SuperBanana

Banned
No matter how hard I tried I couldn't get past the horrible dialog options. That was my favourite part of Bethesda games and they tossed it out and released it with something that might as well not have even been there at that point.
 
B

Brinbe

Member
Yeah, I did almost no quests and just explored and leveled at my leisure... that was actually a pretty fun experience if you're just role-playing a survivor/scavenger and ignore everything else. New Vegas is easily a much better game though. Obsidian needs to do another one.
 
A

Acosta

Member
Aside of whatever opinion you have of the Codex (which have no place here), a really insightful review with lots of good points. You can even have enjoyed the game and still see the point of many of the concerns there.

Fallout 4 is a serious game full of caricatures; it's a comedy game without any funny parts; it's a 100+ hour single player shooter; it's a treadmill of linear fetch and kill quests coupled with atrocious writing. It's a shallow and simplistic game that struggles to create an illusion of depth and variety. It is a lazy, nonsensical, and fundamentally dumb piece of design that offers nothing of interest to the discerning cRPG player. I regret every minute I wasted playing this game. There is nothing more to say.
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Brutal, I feel bad for the guy. Honestly, the Codex should stop treating Bethesda games as RPGs and save themselves the suffering.
 
kittoo

kittoo

Cretinously credulous
Puppen said:
Fallout 4 is not really an RPG, it's just a shooter with some superficial RPG-looking features that are only skin deep. The skills ultimately mean nothing and dialogue options mean nothing. This review is pretty on point.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I was extremely excited for it and got it on Day 1 (a rarity for me) and was left severely disappointed. Somehow finished it and sold it. Will not buy the next Fallout on day 1. Will wait for proper impressions.
 
P

Prisoner KSC2-303

Member
Much like Skyrim, I enjoy the world and exploration, looking for little things that amuse me or battles along the way. However, just like Skyrim, the quests are a serious step backwards, all largely being kill missions that aren't even vaguely dressed up as anything else.

I've still clocked in a lot of hours, but it does make me wonder if I'll bother with the next Bethesda game, as I don't think I could take it if the general decline in imagination put into quests were to continue. Improving the combat just isn't enough to offset that.
 
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