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The TV industry decides what's good for gaming.

S

SeeNoWeevil

Member
Whatever the TV industry decide they need to sell TVs, is what decides the direction of gaming. If more pixels is the easiest way to get a bunch of people who don't want to replace their TV to replace their TV, then you can be sure gaming is going to trend towards those increased pixel rates. No one in gaming has made the conscious decision that 4K is good for gaming, this is all the TV industry and what makes sense for movie watchers.


  • TV industry decide 4K is the easiest thing to market to consumers to push TV sales
  • Consumers buy 4K sets
  • Consumers demand 4K from content providers/console makers to justify their purchases
  • Console makers tow the line with boxes capable of 4K at only 30fps (weak CPUs)
  • Console games scaled back to hit those high pixel counts
  • PC gamers with high end systems have nothing left to put increasing GPU power into besides 4K

Combine this with the obsession of how games look while stationary/in screenshots and the atrocious motion clarity of modern displays and it doesn't look good. Huge static resolution, awful motion resolution. What's next, 8K at 30fps?

Oh well, at least there's still VR. Can't ruin motion there without making people vomit on themselves.
 
nkarafo

nkarafo

Member
Its embarassing that CRTs still have better motion clarity and less input lag. TVs today are only meant for the lowest common denominator who only care about buzzwords.
 
S

*Splinter

Member
Garrett Hawke said:
🤔

4K is good for gaming tho. It is objectively better than 1080p gaming.

Weird thread
Click to expand...
If modern consoles have a choice between 4k/30 and 1080/60, then neither is "objectively" better, and personally I'd agree that the latter is more beneficial to gaming, while the former is better for viewing.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
*Splinter said:
If modern consoles have a choice between 4k/30 and 1080/60, then neither is "objectively" better, and personally I'd agree that the latter is more beneficial to gaming, while the former is better for viewing.
Click to expand...
But they don't, 30fps isn't going anywhere regardless of TV resolution.

OP is acting like if we didn't have 4K TVs everything would be 60fps which isn't true, most devs would just continue increasing fidelity at 30fps.
 
G

grfunkulus

Banned
SeeNoWeevil said:
Whatever the TV industry decide they need to sell TVs, is what decides the direction of gaming. If more pixels is the easiest way to get a bunch of people who don't want to replace their TV to replace their TV, then you can be sure gaming is going to trend towards those increased pixel rates. No one in gaming has made the conscious decision that 4K is good for gaming, this is all the TV industry and what makes sense for movie watchers.


  • TV industry decide 4K is the easiest thing to market to consumers to push TV sales
  • Consumers buy 4K sets
  • Consumers demand 4K from content providers/console makers to justify their purchases
  • Console makers tow the line with boxes capable of 4K at only 30fps (weak CPUs)
  • Console games scaled back to hit those high pixel counts
  • PC gamers with high end systems have nothing left to put increasing GPU power into besides 4K

Combine this with the obsession of how games look while stationary/in screenshots and the atrocious motion clarity of modern displays and it doesn't look good. Huge static resolution, awful motion resolution. What's next, 8K at 30fps?

Oh well, at least there's still VR. Can't ruin motion there without making people vomit on themselves.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you don't have a decent 4K tv. Get yourself a good one (like an LG B6/C6 which can be had for $1100 or less after price protection) and actually see what you've been missing.

Also, checkerboarded PS4 pro games at 60fps say hi
 
A

Awful Falafel

Banned
Of course gaming gets impacted by things around it, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. But it's not fair to say the gaming industry doesn't make it's own decisions on where it's going. VR for example is wholly independent of the TV industry and even potentially harmful to it and the multimedia apps that consoles have give people a reason to not buy smart TVs.
 
M

marrec

Banned
I mean, basically what you're saying here is that the graphical limits of gaming is dependant on the display technology.

Which... duh?
 
S

Stormblessed

Member
Sony make TVs, so for them at least it makes sense to co-ordinate their divisions to push the same tech or standards. Chasing trends is something game companies love doing, too.
 
P

Peltz

Member
nkarafo said:
Its embarassing that CRTs still have better motion clarity and less input lag. TVs today are only meant for the lowest common denominator who only care about buzzwords.
Click to expand...

Video games were originally designed to be played on CRTs. The medium is originally based on that tech.

Team CRT for life.

marrec said:
I mean, basically what you're saying here is that the graphical limits of gaming is dependant on the display technology.

Which... duh?
Click to expand...

That's true. I really want to see what games look like in HDR. I bet it's amazing.
 
R

Razlo

Member
Interesting how you think you speak for all gamers and that resolution brings no benefits. REAL INTERESTING!
 
S

sirap

Member
4K makes 1080p look like ass. I can't imagine gaming at resolutions beyond that though, because at 4K aliasing is pretty much gone.

jsnepo said:
Too bad. Stereoscopic 3D gaming is awesome.
Click to expand...

Yup. The first time I played Crysis 2 on a HMZ-T1...

Hoo mama. That shit looked good, even with Crytek's pseudo-3D implementation.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
*Splinter said:
What about when the "pipe dream" no longer involves a higher pixel count?
Click to expand...
30fps.

30fps allows for higher fidelity which looks better in screenshots, thus it is more marketable to the average consumer.

Dunno why we're still having "why aren't console games 60fps?" conversations in 2017 when it has been addressed multiple times by multiple devs.
 
TannerDemoz

TannerDemoz

Member
Nah, this is flawed, unless I'm just reading this wrong.


Are you saying TV companies dictate the direction of the gaming market? Highly doubt that. 4K wasn't 'forced' on gaming companies; it's the next logical step as far as graphics are concerned, surely`?
 
H

Heckler456

Banned
sirap said:
4K makes 1080p look like ass. I can't imagine gaming at resolutions beyond that though, because at 4K aliasing is pretty much gone.
Click to expand...

I think you'll think differently once 8K actually becomes feasible and mainstream :) I mean, imagine a big screen, 8K resolution, and huge draw distances in like 15 years. I think that's where higher than 4K resolution will really shine.
 
S

sirap

Member
Heckler456 said:
I think you'll think differently once 8K actually becomes feasible and mainstream :) I mean, imagine a big screen, 8K resolution, and huge draw distances in like 15 years. I think that's where higher than 4K resolution will really shine.
Click to expand...

I'm sure I will :p Gonna need a bigger house (or movie theater) to fit a TV big enough to take advantage of all those pixels though...
 
P

patapuf

Member
The PC industry has been pushing new technology all on it's own. People have been using 4k resolution since before 1080p was a standard on console.

Then there's high frequency monitors for Gsync, FreeSync ect. No need for an excuse to push for higher specs, it's an expectation that hardware manufacuters do.

Gaming as a whole is technology driven. If cool new shit is coming out, devs want to take advantage of it. Be that new TV's or something else.
 
E

Echoplx

Member
You need to look up the basics of 3D rendering and how resolution on a fixed pixel grid affects polygonal rendering.

Don't use a conspiracy theory as cover for your ignorance.
 
S

SeeNoWeevil

Member
VGdrumCovers said:
Nah, this is flawed, unless I'm just reading this wrong.


Are you saying TV companies dictate the direction of the gaming market? Highly doubt that. 4K wasn't 'forced' on gaming companies; it's the next logical step as far as graphics are concerned, surely`?
Click to expand...
4K has been forced on gamers by the TV industry. The only reason the PS4 Pro/Scorpio target 4K is to appeal to people who've just spent a lot of money on a 4K display. How anyone can think that ~4 teraflops pushing 2160p at 30fps on an LCD screen is ideal for gaming is beyond me.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
SeeNoWeevil said:
4K has been forced on gamers by the TV industry. The only reason the PS4 Pro/Scorpio target 4K is to appeal to people who've just spent a lot of money on a 4K display. How anyone can think that ~4 teraflops pushing 2160p at 30fps on an LCD screen is ideal for gaming is beyond me.
Click to expand...
"Forced", lol.

Again, you're acting like if we didn't have 4K TVs console games would suddenly be 60fps.

It doesn't matter whether or not you think it's the right use of power, it is the way power is and will continue to be used.

If you want to complain about 30fps on console, blame gamers, not TVs:
However, during development, there are hard choices to be made between higher quality graphics and framerate. And we want to make the right choices that reflect our commitment to providing you with the best looking games out there. To that end, our community team did some research into the question of framerate. The results perhaps confirmed what I’ve known for a long time, but found it difficult to accept without evidence. They found that:

A higher framerate does not significantly affect sales of a game.
A higher framerate does not significantly affect the reviews of a game.

And in particular they found that there was a clear correlation between graphics scores in reviews (where they are provided) and the final scores. And they found no such correlation between framerate and the graphics scores nor the final scores. As an interesting side-note, our team also found no direct correlation between gameplay scores and final scores, however it does appear that gameplay scores are also influenced by graphics scores. i.e. Better looking games appear to be more “fun” to reviewers, in general.
Click to expand...
http://www.insomniacgames.com/how-much-does-framerate-matter/
 
S

Sakujou

Banned
its both who fuck it up.

sony tried 3d, 120fps and 2x1080p in 2006, did not work out, the hardware wasnt even ready for that.

now we are still not ready to have proper 1080p60. how the fuck do you want to tackle 4k?

there is a difference between movies and games.

and this is what people seem to forget.

i want to buy a screen explicitly for gaming, and not for watching movies. and this is where the struggle starts. too many models to choose from and sometimes there are models only existing in the US while these do not exist in PAL.

i want good sound and a clear picture. but there is no boundaries here, you can spend endless money on that :(
 
V

Vintage

Member
Nah, it influences some things in console gaming, but decide? no

It's hard to take your argument seriously when you have only one example and it takes several steps to make your facts look connected.
 
K

KNT-Zero

Member
Yeah, and people are stupid enough to believe that they deserve the same image quality on Zelda BOTW than they do on Real Housewives. But hey, console wars etc etc.
 
FrankWza

FrankWza

Member
Being early to the 4K party for screen and receiver is a bad move. Especially if youre not on Oled The 4K sets out this year look amazing and are far better future proofed. Same goes for av receivers. Handshake issues are all over the place. I still have a pro on a panny plasma and im loving it until Oled prices come down. Led....nah im good.
 
S

SeeNoWeevil

Member
Garrett Hawke said:
"Forced", lol.

Again, you're acting like if we didn't have 4K TVs console games would suddenly be 60fps.

It doesn't matter whether or not you think it's the right use of power, it is the way power is and will continue to be used.

If you want to complain about 30fps on console, blame gamers, not TVs:

http://www.insomniacgames.com/how-much-does-framerate-matter/
Click to expand...
Yes, you're right. The blame isn't entirely with the TV industry. Gamers fixate over the stationary presentation of games. The point is, we're trending towards very gaming unfriendly configurations.

If you have a high-end PC that's already putting out the same as consoles but at higher framerates, what is there to look forward to? The same but at 4K? Great.

HDR and VR are the saving graces here.
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
I feel like a number of devs - particularly on the PC end of the market - were anticipating 4K for a while. I vaguely recall that when the Witcher 3 was being revealed that some note was made of the game being built with resolutions higher than 1080p in mind; I remember it mainly because it was the first time I ever encountered the notion of resolutions higher than 1080p being available on the market. While 4K capable consoles and UHD players took their time getting to the market, those with far, far too much money on their hands used achieving 4K gaming as the new standard for proving just how beefy their hardware was, just as they did with Crysis. So 4K became the rallying point of the enthusiast PC crowd, which in turn has influenced manufacturing towards achieving that goal. And because the technology has been rendered increasingly affordable (relatively speaking; I know I won't pick up a 1080 Ti any time soon), then console gaming has decided to chase by using the bare minimum necessary, particularly while UHD capable Blu-Ray players are still expensive while not necessarily having as much content readily available.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
SeeNoWeevil said:
Yes, you're right. The blame isn't entirely with the TV industry. Gamers fixate over the stationary presentation of games. The point is, we're trending towards very gaming unfriendly configurations.

If you have a high-end PC that's already putting out the same as consoles but at higher framerates, what is there to look forward to? The same but at 4K? Great.

HDR and VR are the saving graces here.
Click to expand...
I don't see how you think aiming for 60fps on console would make PC versions look better? The assets would not be as complex, so you would still be in the same situation of high-end PCs putting out the same as consoles but at higher resolutions.

As it currently is, high end PC users can look forward to frame rate and resolution and fidelity upgrades over consoles anyway.

Look at Mass Effect Andromeda for example and compare the PS4 version to the maxed out PC experience.

Nothing would change on the PC front if Andromeda aimed for 60fps on consoles except it would look worse overall because it would have much lower limits on visual complexity.
 
C

Cuburt

Member
The fact that Sony sells TVs and owns a movie studio means they are on top of every potential TV sales gimmick. Really odd they skipped UHD Bluray on the PS4 Pro given that, though. Perhaps they learned that jacking up the price of their console wasn't worth it this time.
 
S

SalvaPot

Member
Jo Shishido's Cheeks said:
He's still got a point though...?
The industry decided 3D was the new 'in-thing' and game console makers subsequently followed.
Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft all had 3D compatible systems.
Click to expand...

Nintendo had a compatible system with the gamecube, way before 3D TV's where widely available for the everyday consumers.

Then Nintendo released the Wii that could care less about HD, even if it had components to work on them.

Of course, Nintendo is weird in that they beat to their own drum, but OP's argument is that the TV industry is the main force before gaming, when gaming pretty much decides what technologies to support, where to focus resources and try to make the most appealing product possible.

Gaming also has handhelds, mobile and PC gaming, so they don't rely on TV's entirely.
 
-shadow-

-shadow-

Member
I get that pushing tech will sell more than perfecting an old standard. But CRT still beats anything on the market right now in terms of black levels, response times and motion. I really wish companies (that includes game companies) would perfect 1080p as a standard and than move on to whatever the next thing is, but that's expecting to much.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
I agree to a certain extent.

It seemed insane to me that we hadn't even seen what could be achieved in SD and got thrown straight to HD. Games were sub-SD resolution (320x224 or lower) on the same basic TV tech for 20 years and we only got ONE generation that finally used all the pixels (and usually not even all of them for PS2) in 480i/480p!

Now 4K already?
SalvaPot said:
The TV industry tried to make 3D a thing and that didn't work.
Click to expand...
But proves his point?

Sony and sort of Nintendo went 3D in response to it?

Jo Shishido's Cheeks said:
He's still got a point though...?
The industry decided 3D was the new 'in-thing' and game console makers subsequently followed.
Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft all had 3D compatible systems.
Click to expand...
Yep.
 
S

SeeNoWeevil

Member
SalvaPot said:
when gaming pretty much decides what technologies to support, where to focus resources and try to make the most appealing product possible.

Gaming also has handhelds, mobile and PC gaming, so they don't rely on TV's entirely.
Click to expand...
I don't think this has happened at all. The new consoles were designed to sell to people with new 4K TVs. Console makers, game designers, Netflix, GPU vendors all steered by what the TV industry decide they're going to push.
 
yongeandcollege

yongeandcollege

Member
The premise of this thread is ridiculous. Video games are a visual medium. There would be a push for better graphics regardless of display technology. The fact that 4k exists just means that some games will target that resolution.
 
BigEmil

BigEmil

Junior Member
Garrett Hawke said:
🤔

4K is good for gaming tho. It is objectively better than 1080p gaming.

Weird thread
Click to expand...
I think 1080p is more than enough pixels imo i saw 4k and 1080p first hand and I'll always choose 1080p with more visuals effects and frames etc which offers a much bigger difference overall. If need be 1440p is also enough
 
T

TakeItSlowDude

Member
Games will easily be able to get away with sub-native resolutions on 8K screens due to the pixels being very small for any sub 100" screen at normal viewing distances. I agree that consoles targeting 4K resolution is a mistake, 1440p is much more reasonable on sub 20TF consoles. On the plus side the TV industry is driving HDR and deep color in games. I hope TV manufacturers adopt HDMI 2.1 rapidly because >60Hz gaming and adaptive sync will make console a lot better.
 
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