Read my post, if you're curious. It specifically mentions what you seem confused about.
My last post suggested you were putting words in my mouth, and you follow up with this.
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Digital Foundry: Forza Motorsport 7 is Xbox One X's true 4K showcase
- Thread starter willbsn13
- Start date
Read my post, if you're curious. It specifically mentions what you seem confused about.
My last post suggested you were putting words in my mouth, and you follow up with this.
l2ounD
Member
People like to say something is the best looking ever!!
But you cant really say something is the best looking racer when there are cases that other racers that can look better. The problem is almost every game can look better than the others in a certain case setting/scenario. The games at certain times can have better fx, lighting, car models, animations, tracks models. And those can be broken down further, like this part of a track is better modeled but not on turn 3 compared to that game.. etc
Are there other 4K 60fps games on the market (on consoles) that don't have those negative qualities?
Serious question.
l2ounD
Member
He's probably in a time-zone where this is dang-it's-late o'clock, if he doesn't respond. I do think it's maybe a bit early to ask that question, just because for the console space, we're still in year-one for the updated spec systems. I don't know of many, though. When SM finally debuts the Pro/1X enhanced versions of Project Cars 2, that'll be a good data point.
Terbinator
Member
Ah, the filibuster part of the thread.
I'd be intersted to see DFs screen dumps when they're up so we can compare like for like scenarios with 6 and Apex.
I'd be intersted to see DFs screen dumps when they're up so we can compare like for like scenarios with 6 and Apex.
Liabe Brave
Member
I've read your post, and it's not confusing. I'm confused about the reversal of position you seem to be claiming you've made. Here's exactly what you said, followed by how I quoted you:
"This is provably false, though there's at least one wall in the race that appears to be glitched."
"This is provably [true in at least one spot, though in most areas it's] false...."
These are logically the exact same statement: that car shadows do project most places, but not in at least one spot. Since the import of both is the same, your complaint that the second version is putting words in your mouth can only be taken as a rejection of both (identical) statements.
Has your position really changed? Do you now disagree with "This is provably false, though there's at least one wall in the race that appears to be glitched."? Since you're a good poster with a level head, I can't imagine you do. Which is why I can't understand why you're claiming that I altered the meaning (rather than just the wording) of your statement.
ManUtd78
Neo Member
Damn, the differences between Forza 6 on Xbox One and Forza 7 on Xbox One X are massive...
Yeah the difference is so night and day .
Understand the shadow argument but in realtime whilst playing can't say if ever notice
I'm sorry that it escalated to this level. I often make observations of the negative parts because they are usually the ones that go unnoticed. It is much more common for people to be able to see all the good things about games, and Forza 7 has many and has been widely commented. I also have the problem that when I comment on any of the defects, I assume that people will already be able to see it. My fault. I will try to illustrate those points, but they are usually more evident in video than screenshots, at least for me (temporal resolution helps a lot in compressed footage).
Ambient occlusion is missing for most of the geometry
- [This could easily be true, which is a common in many games as a performance balance]
Lighting is only right on photogrammetry assets
- [I'm not clear on what he means by this, but there's no obvious divide in lighting on assets.]
This is clearly visible for me but hard to show in screenshots. The desert track has right lighting values in mountains and in the tunnel entrance, but is not so right in the road and is totally wrong in the rainny track. As an example, take a look a this screenshot, you can see the lighting in the rocks is right, but the rest (sand, road, etc) is not. It seems a composition.
Fhotogrammetry (sic) assets have really low resolution textures
- [This is demonstrably false to anyone watching the footage. I'm sure there are exceptions from streaming or speed if you pause the motion., but simply looking at rock-walls as you pass, you can see they are generall standard resolutions. I legitimately know the still someone grabbed of a rock-wall that appeared glitched that he's basing this on.]
The mountains have low res textures. Very low res.
Most of reflections are not real time calculated.
- [This is generally true of every game ever. Unless there are obvious mis-matches, it's something you assume, rather than observe. He doesn't point any out.]
Most racing games use SSR to avoid this kind of inconsistency. It's annoying to the eye. There are lots of examples in the footage but you can look at this screenshot if you need an example
Geometry reflections on the cars run at half the framerate.
- [This is true, I noticed it in all the 60 fps footage.]
Pretty clear in the video.
Car shadows don't project over track assets.
- [This is provably false, though there's at least one wall in the race that appears to be glitched.]
We would need more footage and surely this will be fixed in release version, but it seems shadows only project over static geometry but not over some type of assets like the fences.
Some tracks elements don't render at full resolution
- [I don't know what this means.]
Here may be interfering with the heat effect on the distance that exists in the desert footage, but I have the impression that the electric cables are not rendered at the native resolution. They used the same trick in Forza 6 so is not risky to say it.
Terbinator
Member
Fences and distant cables are likely to be 2D textures aren't they. Would it not be more trouble than it's worth trying to get shadows and heat effects to play with them?
anothertech
Member
Great deep dive once again John. Really interested to see how dynamic the systems really are in this game.
Edit: nice write up Maldo. Always interesting to see what it takes to get that 4k/60
Edit: nice write up Maldo. Always interesting to see what it takes to get that 4k/60
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Thank you MaLDo, I will go over this tomorrow after a good sleep and with a fresh set of eyes and hopefully learn something.
If I might ask though , out of all the negatives, was there any certain positive aspect that you appreciated or that impressed you most?
It may seem strange to you, but the visual aspect that I like the most, and that it shares with
Dirt 2
Forza 6 Apex
Forza 3 Horizon
is that it is beautiful. It reminds me of the old arcades (Out Run, Daytona, Scud Race, etc). Maybe it's because of the way it applies the technique to make it nice rather than realistic.
That and the framerate. I can't play 30 fps games, so is something that I have to applaud.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Ugh... this reminds me that all the arcades near me shut down. Sigh.
Anyway, that's not strange in the slightest. I actually feel the same way.
How do you (or anyone else for that matter) feel about photogrammetry becoming more pronounced? I don't know if it was even used in Forza before but this is the first time that I can recognize it at first glance. I run into it a lot in some of the VR games that I play like the LAB. It would seem that in VR at least, it makes a huge difference. I think it looks great here in Forza specifically when in motion. I wonder if the PC version will sport higher texture/resolution Photogrammetry?
Anyway, it's cool to see the evolution of certain techniques that grow to have big impacts visually. Especially when it's something like photogrammetry, where if I'm not mistaken it also makes creating landscapes easier?... Or something like that.
I really need to sleep lol. See you all later.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
I'm sorry that it escalated to this level. I often make observations of the negative parts because they are usually the ones that go unnoticed. It is much more common for people to be able to see all the good things about games, and Forza 7 has many and has been widely commented. I also have the problem that when I comment on any of the defects, I assume that people will already be able to see it. My fault. I will try to illustrate those points, but they are usually more evident in video than screenshots, at least for me (temporal resolution helps a lot in compressed footage).
Ambient occlusion is missing for most of the geometry
- [This could easily be true, which is a common in many games as a performance balance]
The sun is almost directly in the center of the sky (look at the car shadows). Why would there be ambient occlusion on the track sides?
Photogrammetry is easy for little assets, and not so easy for big assets. In Forza 7, it produces a big, maybe too big, difference between standard tracks and tracks with something created this way. Even into those tracks, creates a big difference between traditional assets and those. Every Forza has a iconic track. For Forza 6, imo, was Brazil. In Forza 7, maybe will be that desert track in Dubai. We don't know the scope for it in the game. For me, photogrammetry implies really good resolution too, and is not the case in Forza 7. Being a racing game where you can't stop to see the textures in detail is an advantage, but I have to see the final game to decide if the decision was correct. They opted to put a really big photogrammetry asset so they had to sacrifice resolution.
Look a this then. Plants in the shadows (left) have the same lack of ambient occlusion than plants under the sun (right).
Bits N Pieces
Member
It looks like a next gen step up between FM6 to FM7 to me but I suppose im not looking for the flaws or shortcuts.
Risk Breaker
Member
kostacurtas
Member
Its a mainline Forza game. Its not allowed to be pretty, it has to have flaws which need to be discussed in every single Forza thread.
Terbinator
Member
I'd be totally fine with a solution like this if it 'costs less' with a close enough sensation of time advancement.
LukasTaves
Member
Is that dfeed or a video capture?
You definitely can't judge texture quality on moving video capture.
Before the race begins, if there are footage around these rocks would be a better way to gauge the resolution.
RenderJosh
Member
I agree with a lot from your post.
Regarding the low-res textures of the environment, just as it shows on one of your screenshots, I think is it mostly a texture streaming problem, as some parts of the rocks appear normal and some other appear very low-res indeed. If it is a bandwith problem, might not be so easy to correct at such a resolution and framerate. But they have time until release.
For the reflections not being rendered in real time, we can easily understand that the rendering cost of SSR at 4K (they could halve the resolution and even more, but still, raymarching algorithms are not cheap) might be too great to support such a feature.
They could maybe try to do better parallax correction on the envmap so that even if it does not reflect what it actually on screen, it does not look as "off" as it does right now under certain angles.
This is the cost of a 60FPS target on console guys, we can't have the best of everything at 4K and 60FPS. Going from 60 from 30FPS would surely help a lot, but that is definitely not what Microsoft would want as a flagship for their new console.
And correct me if I am wrong, but this "there is 30% of GPU power still available" thingy was about the straight port of the Forza 6 engine from One to One X at 4K, right ? Not Forza 7.
I very highly doubt that they have that much power to spare here...
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
That was said during the press demos during E3.
Baking different lighting conditions is a valid way of portraying different times of day. And it explains the gigantic download size, which is the caveat.
Having said that, if it wasn't for the pixel fetish, for example with a checkerboard or 1440p rendering, they 'might' have achieved realtime dynamic time of day. But this time, where does this leave the original Xbox One with its 60fps goal? So then they might have needed two very different rendering paths.
This 4k desire sort of makes the decision easy: Just pump out more of similar pixels, shaded with not-more complex shaders. The gpu cycles wasted to brute forcing for spatial fidelity.