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gofreak · Jan 8, 2008

Interesting article. He laments the rise of "controlled platforms" generally, but highlights some specific problems with Nintendo lately.

Jon Hare was designer of Sensible Soccer and Cannon Fodder, and currently head development at Nikitova Games.

Nintendo 'faces a moral dilemma' over developer relations

"Good for Nintendo, they have always been the best developer in the world in any case. It is just a shame that this tme they had to put so many other publishers and developers noses out of joint in order to ensure that their titles received such high priority on their hardware formats," said Hare.

Hare cites the 2007 Q3/Q4 delay in manufacturing of third party product, and says the approval process' "feeding back Lotcheck failures in drops and drabs at such a crucial time of the year is unacceptable" he points out that format-holder approval processes at Nintendo (and for that matter Sony and also Microsoft) have a negative impact on product quality.

"Companies such as Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft should feel lucky that at present no international law forces them to open up their platforms as free technical platforms such as VHS, DVD or Stereo. Personally I feel it is no coincidence that the quality of on sequlled, non licensed original software has gone down ever since controlled platforms became the norm in the mid '90s."

Either way if it [Nintendo] does not improve on what happened at the end of this year in regard to working with smaller third parties it may find that support for it's platforms will start to thin out again from the smaller developers and publishers.

This could be a problem on all platforms, his experience may simply be restricted to Nintendo, but it's interesting to see a developer come out and talk about it so openly.

Lobster · Jan 8, 2008

i am a dumb shit that doesn't read articles.

gofreak · Jan 8, 2008

Lobster said:
But they do..Endless Ocean would be no where near a good game if Nintendo didn't scoop up the game.

That was one of Nintendo's own though, a Nintendo published game, he's talking from a third party POV.

And I'm sure he wouldn't dispute that Nintendo has helped some small developers, he just has specific complaints about where others like himself fall in the pecking order.

Stumpokapow · Jan 8, 2008

Lobster said:
But they do..Endless Ocean would be no where near a good game if Nintendo didn't scoop up the game.

Read the damn article, dude.

This is referring to Nintendo's widespread manufacturing issues. Like their plastic shortage in mid-2005. The cart shortage that fucked DQM:J's and FFIII's supply hardcore in Japan. The repeated talks of third-party games having trouble getting big print runs over the holiday season.

I can't believe you're so much of a blind Nintendo fan that you actually looked at that first post and thought your reply was relevant. Yeah, no shit if Nintendo publishes your game it'll get extra money for development. That's not what the article is about. It's about manufacturing and approval issues.

Cosmonaut X · Jan 8, 2008

Stumpokapow said:
This is referring to Nintendo's widespread manufacturing issues. Like their plastic shortage in mid-2005. The cart shortage that fucked DQM:J's and FFIII's supply hardcore in Japan. The repeated talks of third-party games having trouble getting big print runs over the holiday season.

Was this actually genuine? ISTR lots of scuttlebutt about plastic shortages and PAL DS games having to be shipped in card cases but I don't think it ever came to pass.

Anyway, this really isn't great news for Nintendo's relationship with third parties; the larger companies will be able to apply pressure to get what they need, but small firms don't have that clout. Not sure how Hare would have first-hand experience - has his company actually developed anything for Wii? - but I'm sure he has plenty of contacts who do, so this carries more weight than the forum mutterings here.

kay · Jan 8, 2008

Stumpokapow said:
Read the damn article, dude.

This is referring to Nintendo's widespread manufacturing issues. Like their plastic shortage in mid-2005. The cart shortage that fucked DQM:J's and FFIII's supply hardcore in Japan. The repeated talks of third-party games having trouble getting big print runs over the holiday season.

I can't believe you're so much of a blind Nintendo fan that you actually looked at that first post and thought your reply was relevant. Yeah, no shit if Nintendo publishes your game it'll get extra money for development. That's not what the article is about. It's about manufacturing and approval issues.

Seems to happen a lot but glad someone said it.

Anyway, what does the article mean by open platform? Ditching the approval process? I'd be okay with that since it's just like PC but it will never work out. The only reason these companies make consoles is because they are closed. Nintendo and Microsoft weren't in the hardware business and likely would have never have released any of the electronics they have if they were open; Sony would have stuck with electronics without games.

D.Lo · Jan 8, 2008

Third parties were caught off guard in terms of the Wii winning, and so weren't ready with their games and released any nasty crap. Nintendo wasn't ready for the Wii to sell so quickly either, so messed up with with their manufacturing. Sounds about even really, and if smaller third parties don't go with Wii and DS for retail releases, where will they go?

Although the software shortages do seem pretty ridiculous, they also appear to be Europe only? The Wii will soon be the highest selling console Nintendo has ever had in Europe after little more then a year to market, so while it's definitely a failing it's probably to be expected that they would not be ready for these kinds of sales. It would be like Sony selling 40 million PS3s in the first year in Europe - they'd probably have problems keeping up too.

Rancid Mildew · Jan 8, 2008

It's stunning that anyone can accuse the Nintendo approval process of being difficult. The library is filled with so much nonsense. Why is there a lengthy process to approve Cruis'n?

As for disc shortages, I'm not sure that the problem is with third parties alone. Sometimes, even Nintendo can't make enough first party games from what I have read in the European sales threads.

Phife Dawg · Jan 8, 2008

If you want an open plattform just go PC. Consoles will remain closed for the benefits that brings over having an open plattform.

I do agree though that print run issues are absolutely not acceptable. You do have to keep in mind though that this not only affects third party software but first party software as well (SMG, MP3 are two examples I experienced first hand here in Germany). Therefore I don't think Nintendo uses these shortages to weed out smaller devs/publishers.

Taking Japan as an example (just because I have that great Dalthien thread handy). 102 titles have been released on Wii in the span of a little over a year. During the same time-frame 54 titles have been released on PS3.

SovanJedi · Jan 8, 2008

It could be due to the fact that Nintendo themselves release - and sell - so much software on their own that spreads it thin not only for third parties but even for key titles such as Metroid Prime 3.

Wasn't it calculated in a recent Japanese Sales thread that Nintendo has sold more software in Japan than every single other company on the market (Sony+Microsoft+Nintendo third parties) combined? That might be including DS stuff though, which doesn't hold much bearing on Wii.

fresquito · Jan 8, 2008

It's an interesting point of view, but as far as I can see third parties probably aren't doing their thing right. There's lots of shovelware being greenlighted, and I see problems arising from shovelware filling up the shelves. And I see how Nintendo will think twice before licensing something.

So, yeah, I think Nintendo should do something about their relation with third parties, but I also think third parties should put their shit together before compliaining and show some evidence that they are willing to contribute to the Wii with something worth and not just have a chunk of the big pie.

PkunkFury · Jan 8, 2008

I remember the DS plastic shortage stuff a few years back, but what manufacturing issues is this guy citing from 2007? Was there a lack of discs?

Also, what game is this guy working on? It sounds like he had something that got caught up in approval, but they site him as the creator of some 16 bit games. Considering the garbage that is on the Wii right now, I can't imagine Nintendo's approval process being that difficult

Stumpokapow · Jan 8, 2008

kay said:
Anyway, what does the article mean by open platform? Ditching the approval process? I'd be okay with that since it's just like PC but it will never work out. The only reason these companies make consoles is because they are closed. Nintendo and Microsoft weren't in the hardware business and likely would have never have released any of the electronics they have if they were open; Sony would have stuck with electronics without games.

It basically means having a set of published, accessible, and presumably free standards. Use SD cards and free file systems. Use a standard, accessible disc medium for game storage. Allow the use of external manufacturers that meet quality standards. That sort of stuff.

fresquito said:
It's an interesting point of view, but as far as I can see third parties probably aren't doing their thing right. There's lots of shovelware being greenlighted, and I see problems arising from shovelware filling up the shelves. And I see how Nintendo will think twice before licensing something.

He's not talking about that he has trouble getting his games approved, he's talking about how the approval process itself is needlessly lengthy and doesn't have enough feedback. Which is annoying. Like getting a passport. Too many documents, too much wait time, too expensive... even if you actually know you'll still get one in the end.

So, yeah, I think Nintendo should do something about their relation with third parties, but I also think third parties should put their shit together before compliaining and show some evidence that they are willing to contribute to the Wii with something worth and not just have a chunk of the big pie.

The issues he's discussing really don't relate to the issue you're discussing here.

Here's a hint to everyone posting after this point: If you are talking about game quality, you're not in the right thread.

Segata Sanshiro · Jan 8, 2008

His point's a good enough one, but it rests to an extent on his assertion that quality has gone down since the 90s, which I really can't say I agree with. Can Nintendo, as the leader this gen, make things better? Of course, but, of all the three hardware manufacturers, I see Nintendo as the least likely to be concerned with matters like this, simply because they generally don't need to.

fresquito · Jan 8, 2008

Stumpokapow said:
Here's a hint to everyone posting after this point: If you are talking about game quality, you're not in the right thread.

I see this being related. I'm willing to bet Nintendo never expected this much demand to happen. And shovelware is a factor here. I mean, I can't see how third parties are complaining of greenlighting proccess being slow when Nintendo has to deal with shovelware proposals right and left. I can't begin to think how many proposals they must get, because the amount of shovelware on the Wii is incredible and you know, there must be a big pile of games that never got greenlighted.

And shovelware being so predominant is indeed a problem that might interface with the greenlighting proccess. Nintendo might decide to make the proccess tougher, which would result in more tests and slowing down the proccess.

But overall, I think Nintendo has to do something about the situation that is both good for third parties and themselves alike.

However, This Hare guy is arising mroe points than just the procces being slow.

Fewr · Jan 8, 2008

I don't remember getting my passport as a very lengthy process.

Draft · Jan 8, 2008

1. Nintendo doesn't need to do anything. Other companies should look to Nintendo to see how to act.

2. There is an open platform, my friend. It's been here, all along.

Relix · Jan 8, 2008

Draft said:
1. Nintendo doesn't need to do anything. Other companies should look to Nintendo to see how to act.

2. There is an open platform, my friend. It's been here, all along.

Edit: Aw shit wtf was I thinking, wrong thread AND forum. Jesus... the worst thing is that it fell perfectly with what I bolded =P.

Still, isn't WiiWare that, an opportunity to open to the smaller devs?

Stumpokapow · Jan 8, 2008

fresquito said:
And shovelware being so predominant is indeed a problem that might interface with the greenlighting proccess. Nintendo might decide to make the proccess tougher, which would result in more tests and slowing down the proccess.

But there's a difference between the subjective "is this game good? fucking ninjabread man" approval process and the more technical "does your manual have a controls section? does your saving code corrupt the Wii's flash memory? does the box art have a Wii strip on top?" approval process that he's discussing.

This approval process takes an equal amount of time whether the game is shovelware trash or AAA stuff. So unless Nintendo failed to anticipate that there'd be 150 games in the first year, the shovelware shouldn't matter.

... and if Nintendo thought that there'd be that few games... wow.

jarrod · Jan 8, 2008

Uh, well in terms of content at least, Nintendo has by a huge margin the most lenient approval process of the three console makers... hell, there was even an EGM article lambasting Nintendo's ap for being not strict enough and letting too much shovelware through. They'll greenlight about *anything*. :lol

On the technical side, well I'd imagine they're a bit swamped at the moment honestly. Plus NCL's always given large preference to JP developers... I doubt companies like Treasure, Camelot, Arika, Arc System Works, cavia, Vanillaware, tri-Crescendo, Grasshopper, SNK Playmore, Alfa System, Milestone or others are really being neglected, it's more likely the tiny NA/EU/KR teams slipping through the cracks.

Stumpokapow · Jan 8, 2008

jarrod said:
On the technical side, well I'd imagine they're a bit swamped at the moment honestly. Plus NCL's always given large preference to JP developers... I doubt companies like Treasure, Camelot, Arika, Arc System Works, cavia, Vanillaware, tri-Crescendo, Grasshopper, SNK Playmore, Alfa System, Milestone or others are really being neglected, it's more likely the tiny NA/EU/KR teams slipping through the cracks.

This is probably one of the largest contributors to the problems he's experiencing.

But even Japanese developers have mumbled about the difficulty of getting sufficient print runs for their games.

Apenheul · Jan 8, 2008

This article is about the lot-check / TRC / approval process. Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft check all games for technical issues (ie lockups, savegame failures, loadtimes), nothing gameplay related. This is the same process for any developer, it doesn't matter whether you make a 2D puzzle game or a game with the scale of Zelda / God of War / Crysis. For shovelware the programmers faced the exact same challenges. The thing is, in Q3/Q4 there are a lot of games to be tested, and you're going to get queued. What Mr. Hare says goes for all console manufacturers, and an open platform just to bypass the TRC is probably the worst idea I've ever heared. You're going to get a lot of buggy software then.
Some publishers have an internal QA section which can do a TRC before the game is sent to the console manufacturer, that way you save time since you get response earlier.

Neo C. · Jan 8, 2008

Basically the demand is just too high. We always talk about hardware issues, therefore we often ignore the fact that Nintendo produce more cards und discs than ever before.

Stumpokapow · Jan 8, 2008

Apenheul said:
This article is about the lot-check / TRC / approval process. Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft check all games for technical issues (ie lockups, savegame failures, loadtimes), nothing gameplay related. This is the same process for any developer, it doesn't matter whether you make a 2D puzzle game or a game with the scale of Zelda / God of War / Crysis. For shovelware the programmers faced the exact same challenges. The thing is, in Q3/Q4 there are a lot of games to be tested, and you're going to get queued. What Mr. Hare says goes for all console manufacturers, and an open platform just to bypass the TRC is probably the worst idea I've ever heared. You're going to get a lot of buggy software then.
Some publishers have an internal QA section which can do a TRC before the game is sent to the console manufacturer, that way you save time since you get response earlier.

On the other hand an open standards policy that allows for a third-party certified approval body might result in quicker and smoother approval without an associated rise in bugginess.

Stumpokapow · Jan 8, 2008

Neo C. said:
Basically the demand is just too high. We always talk about hardware issues, therefore we often ignore the fact that Nintendo produce more cards und discs than ever before.

With the Wii hardware, Nintendo is producing more than ANY manufacturer has at the same point in time. With the Wii software, Nintendo is producing more than they have ever before, but not more than anyone has before.

Look at 360 software production in year 2 and ask "Will Nintendo be producing that much?"--probably not.

Neo C. · Jan 8, 2008

Stumpokapow said:
Look at 360 software production in year 2 and ask "Will Nintendo be producing that much?"--probably not.

I'm cautious and won't predict things without enough data. It depends a lot on hardware sales, and when I look on different charts in different countries, I see Wii-Games performing well. I think the userbase do like buying games, and combine with the huge hardware sales...

jarrod · Jan 8, 2008

Stumpokapow said:
Look at 360 software production in year 2 and ask "Will Nintendo be producing that much?"--probably not.

What makes you say that? I mean, they produced more in year 1...

Grecco · Jan 8, 2008

None of the 3 are open plataforms and wont be in any time in the future.... Nintendo is just the cheapest one to work with.

PedroRVD · Jan 8, 2008

so basically the article says Wii needs more shovelware.

Nocebo · Jan 8, 2008

PedroRVD said:
so basically the article says Wii needs more shovelware.

No.:lol

jarrod · Jan 8, 2008

Nocebo said:
No.:lol

Correct... he's really saying Wii needs buggier shovelware. :lol

Stumpokapow · Jan 8, 2008

jarrod said:
What makes you say that? I mean, they produced more in year 1...

Because Microsoft ramped up very rapidly starting with the Gears release. The console's software tie ratio has been unbelievable and is continuing to rise faster than the Wii's. So despite the fact that the Wii worldwide has already passed the 360, it'll be a long time before I suspect Nintendo will be producing as many Wii discs as Microsoft does 360 discs.

jarrod · Jan 8, 2008

Stumpokapow said:
Because Microsoft ramped up very rapidly starting with the Gears release. The console's software tie ratio has been unbelievable and is continuing to rise faster than the Wii's. So despite the fact that the Wii worldwide has already passed the 360, it'll be a long time before I suspect Nintendo will be producing as many Wii discs as Microsoft does 360 discs.

Ratio hinges on base though... Nintendo might have a smaller ratio, but they're still pressing more Wii discs than Microsoft is 360 discs year on year. I don't really expect that to change next year either, hell Wii's 2007 was competitive with 360's 2007 even really (maybe even passing it once you consider Wii Sports)...

felipeko · Jan 8, 2008

Stumpokapow said:
With the Wii hardware, Nintendo is producing more than ANY manufacturer has at the same point in time. With the Wii software, Nintendo is producing more than they have ever before, but not more than anyone has before.

Look at 360 software production in year 2 and ask "Will Nintendo be producing that much?"--probably not.

Where did you get that Nintendo didn't produce more software than anyone before in the first year?

'
It could have lost to PS2, but it didn't had WW launch, so its out... X360 only sells software very (very very very) well on NA and UK. Wii is selling everywhere and probably sold more software than x360 first year, and will do it second year.

Saitou · Jan 8, 2008

Grecco said:
None of the 3 are open plataforms and wont be in any time in the future.... Nintendo is just the cheapest one to work with.

Actually, it was not all that long ago that Nintendo had the largest royalty rate for publishing games on their home consoles.

liuelson · Jan 8, 2008

Stumpokapow said:
On the other hand an open standards policy that allows for a third-party certified approval body might result in quicker and smoother approval without an associated rise in bugginess.

More likely, publishers will develop a reputation based on the technical performance of their games. You don't really see a third-party certification body for PC games, for example.

If consumers have to rely on publisher reputation as a signal of game quality (I'm referring to technical performance only), then the small publishers would actually lose more in an open standards scenario.

Stumpokapow · Jan 8, 2008

jarrod said:
Ratio hinges on base though... Nintendo might have a smaller ratio, but they're still pressing more Wii discs than Microsoft is 360 discs year on year. I don't really expect that to change next year either, hell Wii's 2007 was competitive with 360's 2007 even really (maybe even passing it once you consider Wii Sports)...

I think worldwide you're quite possibly right, reflecting on it, because I forgot to account for the fact that the sum total of every Asian region 360 game is the same as a one mid-sized US 360 game print run

Although that poses another question; whether or not each manufacturer does their different region disc fabs in different plants

Deku · Jan 8, 2008

This is really is more console (controlled) vs. PC (open) platform than Nintendo vs. everyone else. Nintendo's Wii and DS perhaps holds more promise because the other two platforms have priced themselves out of the market for small devs.

I'm all for smoother relations, but arguing from a position of open platforms is probably a nonstarter no matter who is boss of the industry.

Sho_Nuff82 · Jan 8, 2008

Does anyone really doubt that Nintendo is intentionally sacrificing 3rd party disc fabrication for its own benefit? This isn't the first company to make this accusation, Eidos said the same thing.

jarrod · Jan 8, 2008

Sho_Nuff82 said:
Does anyone really doubt that Nintendo is intentionally sacrificing 3rd party disc fabrication for its own benefit? This isn't the first company to make this accusation, Eidos said the same thing.

Wouldn't be the first time Nintendo did this either... it' was one of Square's main reasons for leaving the fold for PlayStation way back.

That said, it's not like Nintendo's own games aren't suffering from shortages too (Wii Fit and Mario Party DS just recently even). It's likely less of an issue of being neferiously "for their own benefit" and more an issue of overall capacity and volumes....

M3d10n · Jan 8, 2008

Rancid Mildew said:
It's stunning that anyone can accuse the Nintendo approval process of being difficult.

Lotsa devs forget to RTFM and only notice their game saving code (as example) is totally off the lotcheck guidelines when their game bounces back.

But yeah, Nintendo's dev relationship could be improved a bit (how about hiring more 3rd party relationship personal, heh?)

felipeko · Jan 8, 2008

Sho_Nuff82 said:
Does anyone really doubt that Nintendo is intentionally sacrificing 3rd party disc fabrication for its own benefit? This isn't the first company to make this accusation, Eidos said the same thing.

I find hard to believe that they are with supply problem on disc fabrication... I think that's more to do with understimated demand more than anything...

Ranger X · Jan 8, 2008

No no noé Lotcheck and TRC rules (guidelines for devellopements) are well done and extremely important FOR QUALITY.

If devs wouldn't have those guidelines our gaming would be a total mess, and incoherent pile of clusterfuck.

M3d10n · Jan 8, 2008

felipeko said:
I find hard to believe that they are with supply problem on disc fabrication... I think that's more to do with understimated demand more than anything...

The Wii discs are slightly different than normal DVDs and must be produced using specialized production lines. Also, probably there was a shortage of test discs (special Wii-compatible DVD-R media which can be played on test units only). Devs need those a lot during the final stages of development.

Gozan · Jan 9, 2008

Wait... Jon Hare is alive?!

LCGeek · Jan 9, 2008

Sho_Nuff82 said:
Does anyone really doubt that Nintendo is intentionally sacrificing 3rd party disc fabrication for its own benefit? This isn't the first company to make this accusation, Eidos said the same thing.

Benefit for a company like them whose profit driven no benefit in them not being able to make more or third parties considering they use to be the worse when it came for licensing fees.

It's apathy they are content with what they get and could care less how the 3rd parties make out. If anything seems like Karma for the effort 3rd parties have been giving to the platforms since n64. The risk for it just isn't worth it this problem can be view like how they didn't pump out enough Wii despite sellng more console in a year than any other they just don't up the ante because a bunch of greedy publishers want more.

Eidos can lick balls.

TJ Spyke · Jan 9, 2008

Stumpokapow said:
He's not talking about that he has trouble getting his games approved, he's talking about how the approval process itself is needlessly lengthy and doesn't have enough feedback. Which is annoying. Like getting a passport. Too many documents, too much wait time, too expensive... even if you actually know you'll still get one in the end.

Maybe it should be like Europe, where they can't deny games (IIRC, Sony America denied a lot of 2D games for the PS2 that came out in Europe because Sony Europe couldn't deny them due to some weird EU law. It's one of the reasons Phoenix Games releases so many crappy games and non-games like interactive coloring books in Europe).

sho_nuff, those accusations usually come from companies who release crappy games (or ports of games that came out on other systems months earlier) and then are somehow surprised that they sell poorly.

Wii games from Eidos:
Bionicle Heroes (licensed kids game)
Monster Lab (not out yet, so we can't judge)
Lara Croft Tomb Raider: Anniversary (port of a game that had come out months earlier on other systems)

Stumpokapow · Jan 9, 2008

Deku said:
This is really is more console (controlled) vs. PC (open) platform than Nintendo vs. everyone else. Nintendo's Wii and DS perhaps holds more promise because the other two platforms have priced themselves out of the market for small devs.

I'm all for smoother relations, but arguing from a position of open platforms is probably a nonstarter no matter who is boss of the industry.

I think an actual open platform is a non-starter, but certainly asking platform makers to fuck off with proprietary tech for storage, interface devices, etc would be a start. Nintendo's decent for that with SD support and a bluetooth controller. Microsoft is okay with the HID compliant controller, but shitty because of the proprietary memory card and the what-the-fuck-ever hard drive. Sony is good with the hard drive, but bad with the controller and obviously Blu-Ray is controversial.

Unison · Jan 9, 2008

I love that this thread is still on page one... Looks like no one really cares about small developers' complaints. :lol

LCGeek · Jan 9, 2008

Stumpokapow said:
I think an actual open platform is a non-starter, but certainly asking platform makers to fuck off with proprietary tech for storage, interface devices, etc would be a start. Nintendo's decent for that with SD support and a bluetooth controller. Microsoft is okay with the HID compliant controller, but shitty because of the proprietary memory card and the what-the-fuck-ever hard drive. Sony is good with the hard drive, but bad with the controller and obviously Blu-Ray is controversial.

If consoles weren't built the way they were progression of them definetly be stalled.

Proprietary and Open is just an illusion there's always a forum of owners behind most storage and interface mediums. A company like nintendo who want to keep a lot of their money would lose it same for MS who make a ton by how the system is setup. Pros and Cons in life sadly there's just no middle road for small devs at this point in the industry which is very sad.

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