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What's wrong with fantasy novels?

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S

Scribble

Member
I'm just asking the question, since I've seen a lot of forum posts that criticise fantasy, as if it isn't real fiction. I haven't read THAT many fantasy books myself, but what makes them worse than say, the romance stuff that a lot of people seem to like? Is it just elitism or something?

Is it because of the fact that quite a lot of them are Tolkien ripoffs? If that's the case, it's kind of funny, since the word 'fantasy' sort of implies that the story will be stepping out of the box a bit. What do you think of the genre? What good examples are there (Well, minus the obvious stuff like American Gods, ASOIF, Malazan, etc. And writers -- do you write fantasy? Is your fantasy story Tolkien-esque, or is it different?
 
I

Ikopi

Member
There are some 'better' fantasy writers, like Hobb, Gaiman, Nix, ... But mostly it is the same thing over and over again, in a slightly different setting. It always has a slightly juvenile undertone, and even even when they try to mix 'adult' themes in it, it becomes even more awkward.

I like to read fantasy, but one book a month is more than enough because it seems it is stuck in always the same themes.
 
M

madara

Member
Reminds me when I was reading a shannara novel last summer and my neighbor asked to me to be careful so I dont go to hell. I was like WTF? :lol You try respect other people beliefs but cripes its so hard in those situations.
 
O

Odysseus

Banned
i don't know, i like reading fantasy

i particularly enjoy the weis & hickman duo. dragonlance, death gate, darksword, etc.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
I have the same problems with Fantasy that I do with the other genres you listed.

1) The subject matter isn't inherently interesting to me. I like some subgenres of fantasy-- like fantasy elements invading modern life (Gaiman, Tim Powers) but straight-up pseudo-medieval stuff leaves me pretty cold. Likewise, I don't have any inherent interest in historical fiction, or spacehips (OK, a little interest in spaceships).

2) Most of them are poorly written.

That said, I'll read it if it's compelling enough. I'm finishing a Game of Thrones right now (Song of Ice and Fire series) and it's really damned good for this type of book.
 
S

SRG01

Member
80% of the entire genre is chaff. Most authors are horrible at writing -- even some choice popular authors that I won't name -- compared to contemporary authors.

The argument for fantasies is the same one typically used in sci-fi: people mainly read it for the setting. It's total BS, since it doesn't excuse the author for creating absolute garbage for plot and character development.
 
D

Danielsan

Member
Not much of a big Fantasy Novel fan myself but the Song of Ice and Fire series is amazing. I guess I prefer my books with some grounds in reality. I Also need to have compelling characters that are shades of grey instead of black and white.
 
D

Deleted member 20415

Unconfirmed Member
For years I was a diehard reader of fantasy, then I soured completely and fled from it for years.

- Too many stories seemed like carbon copies
- MASSIVE Tomes of unending writing coupled with book after book in these series. In the late 90s, it was tough to find a fantasy book that wasn't under 900 pages (mostly filler and trash) and not part of a planned trilogy


I've slowly come back - read a few things here and there that have really attracted me - short story collections, pulp works from the 30s and 40s that are really fun.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Just like any genre, most of it is crap. The best in the genre is not the best because of it, but the best because of the writing and characterization. It's like the whole "suspense" genre, most of it utter crap.
 
B

BrokenFiction

Member
I like fantasy, but I'm not a big fan of the massive bricks that authors and publishers feel the need to put out these days. Get a (decent) editor, people.
 
T

Tauntaun

Banned
075640407X.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


READ IT!
 
T

Tyrone Slothrop

Banned
for one, most of it is poorly written. i cracked open the wheel of time the other day out of boredom... and wow.

and it's just so narrow. tolkein was some hot shit for his day. and his eschewing of allegory was a neat change in 20th century literature. but ... we didnt need trillions more.
 
S

SRG01

Member
Tyrone Slothrop said:
for one, most of it is poorly written. i cracked open the wheel of time the other day out of boredom... and wow.

and it's just so narrow. tolkein was some hot shit for his day. and his eschewing of allegory was a neat change in 20th century literature. but ... we didnt need trillions more.
Click to expand...

Tolkien is still sub-standard compared to most contemporary authors. :(
 
F

firex

Member
I think the worst thing for me is when they try to have a gigantic cast of characters, so there's like 500000 subplots in a book. Then you know the goal is "if it sells we'll make it a series!" and they'll keep going back to all their subplots where the author tries to show how awesome they are at writing characters by making all these stupid people who are slightly different from one another.

That and too many people ripping off Tolkein/stealing the elements from his books for their own.
 
N

npm0925

Member
A lot of fantasy is derivative and poorly written. But that's true of any literary genre. I think it may have something to do with cheesy cover art and the fact that every other fantasy novel is 600-pages long and part of a multi-book series.
 
L

lastendconductor

Put your snobby liquids into my mouth!
1) Shitty writing aimed at manchilds
2) Unoriginal, everything ripped of LotR/Conan
3) Neverending sagas of filler shit
4) I can feel the retarded obsession with the genre the author has permeating through his writing.

95% of this crap is not better than watching a cartoon or reading a comic, this shit ain't literature. I've recently read that super duper drizzt trilogy... omg that was embarassing.
 
T

Tyrone Slothrop

Banned
i don't really understand fantasy publishers. if you try and sell them a manuscript they'll preface the submissions guidelines with how they're looking for something "new and innovative" that "breaks conventions" ect ect. but then all they really accept are your standard swords and sorcery fare. it definitely doesn't take much to get them out of their comfort zone
 
N

npm0925

Member
Tauntaun said:
075640407X.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


READ IT!
Click to expand...
Problem is it's the first book in a trilogy, and the other 2 books have yet to be released. So read it, forget 99% of it, and be lost when book #2 is released. That's part of fantasy's problem.
 
N

npm0925

Member
SRG01 said:
I'd rather read Joseph Conrad. :kittwonyindifferent:
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Conrad is one of the best authors of the 20th century. You said "sub-standard." Tolkien's better than 99% of fantasy authors, so I don't consider him sub-standard at all.
 
M

mambadragon

Banned
In general, I don't see a problem with them when compared to the trashy romance novels and self-help flavor of the month recommended by Oprah that dominates the book charts. In the minds of most, I think it's just that view that anything fantasy is childish or nerdy (and they're marketed this way, look at the cover images, they look like B-movie posters more than book covers), and you should "mature" to the trashy novels and Tom Clancy crap. Same kind of issue many have with adults playing videogames.

As for an analysis of the actual writing, a lot of fantasy just seems like a Tolkien ripoff where the author uses new funny sounding names for people and places and rehashes familiar stories. But, the same can be said with scifi and Star Wars/Trek. That's why stuff that does something different like ASoIaF or Battlestar Galactica stand out.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
I just finished a book that was effectively designed to set the stage for the next two books in a planned trilogy. That was the point of this volume in the trilogy: establish the characters and the universe the author has imagined so they can hopefully actually do things over the next two books. This book comes from an author who typically gets high praise -his/her name appears in this thread - and it was almost 900 pages long. And nothing happened until the last 50 pages or so.

That is what is wrong with fantasy. I do not have high praise for other trashy genre fiction either, but no other genre is stricken with such horrible trilogy-itis.
 
T

Tauntaun

Banned
npm0925 said:
Problem is it's the first book in a trilogy, and the other 2 books have yet to be released. So read it, forget 99% of it, and be lost when book #2 is released. That's part of fantasy's problem.
Click to expand...

Nay, read it, love it, pine for the second novel, re-read first book before 2nd novel comes out. That's all sorts of win right there. :D
 
S

Scribble

Member
echoshifting said:
I just finished a book that was effectively designed to set the stage for the next two books in a planned trilogy. That was the point of this volume in the trilogy: establish the characters and the universe the author has imagined so they can hopefully actually do things over the next two books. This book comes from an author who typically gets high praise -his/her name appears in this thread - and it was almost 900 pages long. And nothing happened until the last 50 pages or so.

That is what is wrong with fantasy. I do not have high praise for other trashy genre fiction either, but no other genre is stricken with such horrible trilogy-itis.
Click to expand...


I find that helped things for later on, though. In ASOIAF's case (Don't know if it's that you're talking about), it brought the setting to life, as well as established character personalities. It did get boring at times in GoT, but it made the pay-off so much more rewarding.
 
D

Deleted member 20415

Unconfirmed Member
One thing I'm just tired of in general (movies and books) is trilogies. Especially when it's a planned trilogy. Why not let the material flow out of you rather than setting a specific amount and writing to it (thus filler).

And I hate when writers/producers/whatever say "Well, we planned this as a trilogy" after a movie or book is a success.

/rant
 
K

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Sometimes I wonder if I'm just too cynical to enjoy most fantasy; I don't like to get on a high horse of defining what "tr00 literature" is, because that leads to its own form of circular argument.

But all the same I can't read most fantasy; I haven't found anything in recent years in the "ye olde swords and sorcery" style that is interesting to me. I enjoy some "contemporary" fantasy like Gaiman is fond of writing, but even the urban fantasy subgenre has its own cliches.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with fantasy as a genre though. I feel it is just burdened with its own success as a genre through the 70's and 80's. It doesn't help that there's a renewed emphasis on fantasy thanks to the apparent crossover revival in movies that began with Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings. While recent movies have drawn new attention to the fantasy genre as a whole, they have also reinforced some of its stereotypes, more likely than not.
 
K

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
El_TigroX said:
One thing I'm just tired of in general (movies and books) is trilogies. Especially when it's a planned trilogy. Why not let the material flow out of you rather than setting a specific amount and writing to it (thus filler).

And I hate when writers/producers/whatever say "Well, we planned this as a trilogy" after a movie or book is a success.

/rant
Click to expand...

This is one big reason why Iain M. Banks is one of my favorite genre authors today; despite writing so many novels in a consistent universe (The Culture) Banks all but religiously avoids seeming as if he's actually writing a /series/ as such. I think only one novel out of the 8 or 9 in his Culture universe is arguably a sequel (Look to Windward, dealing with fallout from Consider Phlebas) and that's a bit tenuous. I can pick up a Banks novel, whether his genre work or not, and feel I am about to read a complete story.

On the sci-fi side I also like Alastair Reynolds a lot even though his debut novel, Revelation Space, was obvious set-up for a trilogy. Sometimes a trilogy is deserved. Still, at least his other books have largely been stand-alone.
 
S

Shahadan

Member
El_TigroX said:
One thing I'm just tired of in general (movies and books) is trilogies. Especially when it's a planned trilogy. Why not let the material flow out of you rather than setting a specific amount and writing to it (thus filler).

/rant
Click to expand...


Well, themes? If your story is about, let's say the classic Birth, Life, Death, and you want to talk about these subjects separately with a specific story within each theme I'd say a trilogy is pretty much a natural choice.

Of course, sometimes authors don't bother with this sort of thing and create a trilogy to do like everybody else (yeah movie industry I'm lookin at you) and we agree to say it's quite annoying.
 
Q

QVT

Fair-weather, with pride!
It's the same thing as a band like Linkin Park. It's not even scratching the surface of what a book can do, and it's designed for angry teenagers.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
Scribble said:
I find that helped things for later on, though. In ASOIAF's case (Don't know if it's that you're talking about), it brought the setting to life, as well as established character personalities. It did get boring at times in GoT, but it made the pay-off so much more rewarding.
Click to expand...

I don't want to identify the author I'm talking about, but I will say I'm not talking about A Game of Thrones. GRRM is a fantastic writer, and I adore ASOIAF. I would say the story moves forward quite a bit in the first volume. Certainly a lot more than the book I'm referencing.
 
R

ronito

Member
90% of it is cliche cliche cliche.

I mean the last fantasy novel I read I was like, "If I have to read about one more farm boy with unknown parents taken in by a quiet farm town!!!" And sure enough. I put it down and haven't touched Fantasy novels since.
 
V

Verdre

Unconfirmed Member
Quests, heroes, prophecies, and saving the world/kingdom

If you can dig, and you have to really freaking dig, you can find the good fantasy buried under all the crap.
 
F

Freeza Under The Shower

Member
El_TigroX said:
One thing I'm just tired of in general (movies and books) is trilogies. Especially when it's a planned trilogy. Why not let the material flow out of you rather than setting a specific amount and writing to it (thus filler).

And I hate when writers/producers/whatever say "Well, we planned this as a trilogy" after a movie or book is a success.

/rant
Click to expand...

I agree, and the fact that it is now also being done to games.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
Zeitgeister said:
I agree, and the fact that it is now also being done to games.
Click to expand...

I HATE that it is happening to games. Man I hate that. Cliffhanger endings on unproven IPs are bullshit, through and through.

The only games this should ever happen in are the games where we know they are going to keep producing that franchise forever and ever....even then it's still bullshit when a publisher takes their time with the next game. I'm looking at you, Diablo II! Seven fucking years!
 
C

chaostrophy

Member
Literature snobs that look down on fantasy are a pet peeve of mine. Sure, a lot of fantasy is boring crap, but so is a lot of "non-genre" or "literary" fiction. It can be interesting to take fantasy seriously and read it for the subtext as well as the text, plenty of fantasy writers have something to say with their work. It's not all empty escapism.
 
X

Xater

Member
I know something is wrong when I look into a book and I have to learn 5 fucking family trees bfore the novel even starts.
 
Q

QVT

Fair-weather, with pride!
chaostrophy said:
Literature snobs that look down on fantasy are a pet peeve of mine. Sure, a lot of fantasy is boring crap, but so is a lot of "non-genre" or "literary" fiction. It can be interesting to take fantasy seriously and read it for the subtext as well as the text, plenty of fantasy writers have something to say with their work. It's not all empty escapism.
Click to expand...

Don't care, no it can't, and yes it is.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
QVT said:
Don't care, no it can't, and yes it is.
Click to expand...

:lol True of most fantasy fiction. I don't mind being called a snob...although I'm really not, I used to love fantasy when I was a kid and I still give it a shot every once in awhile (see above).
 
T

tokkun

Member
SRG01 said:
80% of the entire genre is chaff.
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That same argument can be used against almost anything. Sci-Fi author T. Sturgeon had a famous "Sturgeon's Law" that '90 percent of everything is crap.' That definitely applies to other forms of genre fiction like whodunnits, courtroom drama, horror/suspense, Tom Clancy, etc. I think that the disdain has a lot more to do with the fact that sci-fi and fantasy tend to be popular among nerds.
 
D

Deleted member 20415

Unconfirmed Member
Duck of Death said:
Nothing. It is simply an over-saturated genre.

Check out some Fritz Leiber's stories about Fafhrd and the Gray Mousser
Click to expand...



Fritz Leiber is the man... also Robert E. Howard is amazing me as of late. Pick up some Soloman Kane if you want light, fast and exciting stories.
 
Q

QVT

Fair-weather, with pride!
echoshifting said:
:lol True of most fantasy fiction. I don't mind being called a snob...although I'm really not, I used to love fantasy when I was a kid and I still give it a shot every once in awhile (see above).
Click to expand...

Wait you get no secrets you like Martin
 
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