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[SRG01]

genious storyteller. average writer

Right on.

Personally, the most timeless stories are the ones that can be transplanted across genres and settings and still have the same impact as before. This is why a lot of Shakespearan works can be adapted to modern times.

This is why a lot of fantasy and science fiction are not good; many of the stories focus on setting rather than the actual literary material. I do not want every minute detail of the environment or the protagonist's actions. Give me his motivations and his inspirations, his development and his conflicts.

 

[echoshifting]

Wait you get no secrets you like Martin

The fantasy nerds despise me, the literature snobs won't take me.

 

[batbeg]

There's an insane amount of snobbery surrounding fantasy and sci-fi, and it really pisses me off on my creative writing class that any book which isn't some sort of nostalgic drama about undertones in family life is immediately regarded as rubbish :-\

Personally though, I do enjoy fantasy mostly for superficial reasons and wouldn't put most of it into the esteemed (bullshit) canon - Gemmell, James Barclay, Tolkien (Hobbit/Silmillarion, didn't ever really like LOTR), Jordan, Stephen King (Dark Tower could have been so much more, but eh) etc. However, there are some works which I think are clearly a cut above the rest, namely ASOIF and the Thomas Covenant books which are powerful works with intense writing styles.

Fantasy elements in the real world or alternative worlds are also something I really enjoy, so you have a lot of really great books employing that like His Dark Materials, Time Traveller's Wife, House of Leaves, etc.

 

[QVT]

The fantasy nerds despise me, the literature snobs won't take me.

On the off chance you've never read a good book, you should look into Gene Wolfe. Genre Fictions best kept secret.

I'm really not an asshole

 

[monkspider]

Don't care, no it can't, and yes it is.

Bravo! I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[chaostrophy]

My favorite fantasy novel is probably Invisible Cities by Italo Calvino (who is apparently regarded as a literary writer). It's not about swords or sorcery or saving the world, more about exploration and imagination.

 

[the year 20XX]

Has anyone said "too many apostrophes?"

Because that's my problem with fantasy novels.

 

[QVT]

Calvino is a postmodernist whose most famous book begins with the line "You are about to begin reading Italo Calvino's new novel, If on a winter's night a traveler."

When I say fantasy garbage I mean Martin and Jordan and Harry Potter.

 

[Chairman Yang]

The fantasy genre tends, on average, to be crappier than fiction as a whole. That's what's wrong with it.

Of course, how much crap a genre has is irrelevant. It's the amount of good stuff that's important, and in that regard, fantasy has a lot. Martin and Mieville have written books that are great by any standard, for example.

 

[Shrike_Priest]

Too much popular crap.

Same thing with animé. For every "My Neigbour Totoro" or "Akira", there are five dozen "Dragon Ball Zs".

Same thing with SF. For every "The Stars My Destination" or "The Dispossessed" there are five dozen "Tek Jansen, space ranger adventures".

And so on.

I love SF, and don't mind reading fantasy or borderline stuff, but I can't say that more than 10% of the stuff published is worth reading.

The thing is that SF/Fantasy stands out so much clearer as a genre than other "realistic" fiction. Thus the flaws become more visible as well, especially since what is seen clearly is what is commercial and mostly shallow. It's not like everything that isn't SF/Fantasy is seen as a single genre, nor judged like one. The same applies to SF/Fantasy, there's such an amazing span of what you can do there, that you're going to end up with crap as well as genius, just like normal fiction.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

There's an insane amount of snobbery surrounding fantasy and sci-fi, and it really pisses me off on my creative writing class that any book which isn't some sort of nostalgic drama about undertones in family life is immediately regarded as rubbish :-\

Personally though, I do enjoy fantasy mostly for superficial reasons and wouldn't put most of it into the esteemed (bullshit) canon - Gemmell, James Barclay, Tolkien (Hobbit/Silmillarion, didn't ever really like LOTR), Jordan, Stephen King (Dark Tower could have been so much more, but eh) etc. However, there are some works which I think are clearly a cut above the rest, namely ASOIF and the Thomas Covenant books which are powerful works with intense writing styles.

Fantasy elements in the real world or alternative worlds are also something I really enjoy, so you have a lot of really great books employing that like His Dark Materials, Time Traveller's Wife, House of Leaves, etc.

Yeah, I had this vibe in my creative writing class years ago. The instructor said that he'd seen judges in a competition look at the genre, see 'fantasy' and immediately set it aside.

Personally, I'm not sure a lot of fantasy novels are trying to be literary at all. They're just good clean fun, which is why I love them. But anything written down has to be criticized and I always find critics believe fantasy always seems to be written by people who can't write about real life and people.

Not to derail, but it reminds me of when I had a sub for my Canadian History course and the fucking sub said she was glad there were sports strikes on because the sports section was useless. I mean what the fuck!? Is it too much to ask for a little entertainment to distract us from the dreariness of life? Do we HAVE to be concerned about shit in faraway places and wars that have little to no bearing on our lives ALL the time?

 

[lastendconductor]

As for an analysis of the actual writing, a lot of fantasy just seems like a Tolkien ripoff where the author uses new funny sounding names for people and places and rehashes familiar stories. But, the same can be said with scifi and Star Wars/Trek. That's why stuff that does something different like ASoIaF or Battlestar Galactica stand out.

:lol :lol :lol
Have you read any sci-fi books at all? star wars/trek ripoffs :lol :lol :lol : you're confusing sci-fi with space opera (which sucks and yes, is quite similar to fantasy).
Sci-fi is arguably the most original and diverse genre out there.

 

[batbeg]

:lol :lol :lol
Have you read any sci-fi books at all? star wars/trek ripoffs :lol :lol :lol : you're confusing sci-fi with space opera (which sucks and yes, is quite similar to fantasy).
Sci-fi is arguably the most original and diverse genre out there.

Anyone who talks about a genre as being more original or diverse than any other is loco. Sci-fi is filled with the same ratio of garbage as all genres, I'd say, and is definitely chock-full of generic crap.

Not that I'm dissing sci-fi, sci-fi and fantasy are my favorite genres when done well, I guess. But no genre is inherently more unique than any other.

 

[Green Shinobi]

Don't care, no it can't, and yes it is.

A Midsummer Night's Dream is a fantasy.

You're completely wrong about this.

 

[BrokenFiction]

:lol :lol :lol
Have you read any sci-fi books at all? star wars/trek ripoffs :lol :lol :lol : you're confusing sci-fi with space opera (which sucks and yes, is quite similar to fantasy).
Sci-fi is arguably the most original and diverse genre out there.

Space Opera, when done well (the operative phrase here), can kick all kinds of ass.

"The Space Opera Renaissance"

 

[QVT]

A Midsummer Night's Dream is a fantasy.

You're completely wrong about this.

Oh, Shakespeare wrote fantasy novels now?

 

[Green Shinobi]

Oh, and QVT, you're the one who recommended Gene Wolfe to me. That Book of the New Sun that I read was completely fantasy. Now you're saying that fantasy novels can't be literary?

I don't know what to believe.

Oh, Shakespeare wrote fantasy novels now?

Works of fantasy.

The medium is the least important thing.

 

[NovemberMike]

If you take away the props the story is worthless, the book is worthless. The problem with most fantasy stuff is that when you take away the magic swords or lasers, you end up with something that goes 1) character cast out from home into world 2) hero acquires skills and friends 3) hero slays enemy 4) hero returns triumphantly. I don't think anyone would argue that 1984 or Fahrenheit 451 aren't literature, but anything that relies on magic swords to carry the story generally sucks.

 

[QVT]

Oh, and QVT, you're the one who recommended Gene Wolfe to me. That Book of the New Sun that I read was completely fantasy. Now you're saying that fantasy novels can't be literary?

I don't know what to believe.


Works of fantasy.

The medium is the least important thing.

New Sun is the good stuff. I mentioned that already. And if you did read it, then you'd know it's completely different from Martin and Jordan.

Yes, that's what he said in the thread title. And I'm not fond of that particular play anyways.

 

[Green Shinobi]

New Sun is the good stuff. I mentioned that already. And if you did read it, then you'd know it's completely different from Martin and Jordan.

Yes, that's what he said in the thread title. And I'm not fond of that particular play anyways.

Well, this is the post you were replying to:

Literature snobs that look down on fantasy are a pet peeve of mine. Sure, a lot of fantasy is boring crap, but so is a lot of "non-genre" or "literary" fiction. It can be interesting to take fantasy seriously and read it for the subtext as well as the text, plenty of fantasy writers have something to say with their work. It's not all empty escapism.

You said "no it isn't" interesting to take fantasy seriously and read it for the subtext, and "yes it is" in response to fantasy not being all empty escapism.

 

[hiryu]

Besides the fact that most of them suck, nothing.

 

[lastendconductor]

Space Opera, when done well (the operative phrase here), can kick all kinds of ass.

"The Space Opera Renaissance"

Thanks, I will definitely check that out.

 

[Fritz]

Sorry to say this, but Fantasy is just lame. Course I loved Fantasy when I was younger, but eventually you grow out of it. Seriously, there are so many fantastic reads out there that have so much to offer. Why would anyone waste his time on a mediocre book. And when you think about it, there's a reason why none of those fantasy authors ever won a Nobel-prize and every grown-up man with some self-respect stays away from them. Man, it already makes me cringe to read the titles.
But, to be fair, same goes for all the Love-, Crichton-, Sci-Fi-, Horrorstuff etc.

 

[batbeg]

Sorry to say this, but Fantasy is just lame. Course I loved Fantasy when I was younger, but eventually you grow out of it. Seriously, there are so many fantastic reads out there that have so much to offer. Why would anyone waste his time on a mediocre book. And when you think about it, there's a reason why none of those fantasy authors ever won a Nobel-prize and every grown-up man with some self-respect stays away from them. Man, it already makes me cringe to read the titles.
But, to be fair, same goes for all the Love-, Crichton-, Sci-Fi-, Horrorstuff etc.

:lol

Of course, I don't usually expect intelligent discussion about reading on a videogame forum, but even so... :lol Genre now determines the worth of something? Awesome.

 

[No6]

Anyone who talks about a genre as being more original or diverse than any other is loco. Sci-fi is filled with the same ratio of garbage as all genres, I'd say, and is definitely chock-full of generic crap.

Not if you pick and choose at the best SciFi books and put them into the Speculative Fiction genre. That's my favorite tactic: inventing a new genre. Romance novels mostly trash? Well, the best of them (all two of them) are hereby placed in the Fictional Relationship genre!

 

[IamMattFox]

I would put romance novels and science fiction on the same level.

A creative writing class I distinguished the genre fiction (fantasy, horror, romance, etc.) from the general fiction section that you'll find at your local Barnes and Noble by saying that the genre fiction is simple while the regular fiction is sophisticated. Simple fiction tends to be plot driven, while sophisticated fiction is character driven.

 

[Thrillhouse]

I guess this is a good thread to ask this in; Is Wheel of Time worth it?

 

[echoshifting]

I guess this is a good thread to ask this in; Is Wheel of Time worth it?

Good lord no. May Jordan rest in peace but...just....no. If you must stick to the first four or five but even those are your typical barely passable bloated garbage.

 

[Prime crotch]

I don't get the snob attitude against fantasy novels, I thought scifi was the last genre to be looked down upon before Philip K Dick became famous.

As a confession I got to admit I enjoyed the R A Salvatore books, I know they're kinda garbage but they were fun to read before I got bored by them.

 

[bengraven]

One thing I'm just tired of in general (movies and books) is trilogies. Especially when it's a planned trilogy. Why not let the material flow out of you rather than setting a specific amount and writing to it (thus filler).

And I hate when writers/producers/whatever say "Well, we planned this as a trilogy" after a movie or book is a success.

/rant

When I see a book titled "The _____ of _______: _________: Volume 1 in the ________ Trilogy" I put it down.

STOP. THIS FUCKING SHIT. PUBLISHERS.

If you take away the props the story is worthless, the book is worthless. The problem with most fantasy stuff is that when you take away the magic swords or lasers, you end up with something that goes 1) character cast out from home into world 2) hero acquires skills and friends 3) hero slays enemy 4) hero returns triumphantly. I don't think anyone would argue that 1984 or Fahrenheit 451 aren't literature, but anything that relies on magic swords to carry the story generally sucks.

That's exactly it. I'm a writer, but I almost refuse to write in the genre. I like classic fantasy: T.H. White, Tolkien, Howard...but everything is simply straining downward and fantasy is getting plainer every day.

Fairy tales -> epic romances -> Tolkien -> DnD -> modern fantasy -> videogame story ripoffs?

I remember a fellow writer telling me he finally had a good story. He began: "it's about a blue haired wizard who finds his way into a village one day and can't remember his own past..." I asked him what inspired him (after abrupting cutting him off) and he said "Phantasy Star and my Dungeons and Dragons campaign".

slapface.gif

I'm writing more contemporary work, but the fantasy genre still tugs at me. I would love to be one of the few modern writers who can actually create a story first and the epic fantasy second. Maybe someday.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I just want to say A Storm of Swords is perhaps the best fantasy book I've ever read. God I can't wait for ADWD

Spoiler

screw the haters, AFFC was pretty damn good as wel

 

[Fritz]

:lol

Of course, I don't usually expect intelligent discussion about reading on a videogame forum, but even so... :lol Genre now determines the worth of something? Awesome.

You can laugh as long as you want. I was merely stating the facts. It's certainly not that a genre necessarily makes a poor book, but looking at it, apparently most books in certain genres are bad.

I know some people must take statements like this as an offense, because they love to read fantasy books. But I think it's an undeniable truth that they arent on the same level as acclaimed literature qualitywise. And it wouldn't be a problem, if it wasn't for fantasy fans to take their books so damn seriously. If you ask someone, who's into romantic novels they would probably say: I know it's crap, just can't help it.

 

[No6]

I would put romance novels and science fiction on the same level.

A creative writing class I distinguished the genre fiction (fantasy, horror, romance, etc.) from the general fiction section that you'll find at your local Barnes and Noble by saying that the genre fiction is simple while the regular fiction is sophisticated. Simple fiction tends to be plot driven, while sophisticated fiction is character driven.

That's a pretty terrible example given that most of what I see in the general fiction section is either plot driven drivel or the white-bread My (or Maybe Someone Else's) Sad True Life junk that seems to litter the front window of B&N. At least all those posters for The Secret finally came down (my wishing for them to go away must have worked!).

And although I was half-joking about the speculative fiction category, there is a long history and large amount of high-quality, character-driven speculative-scifi fiction that avoids the space opera plague, far moreso than I would argue fantasy and definately more than what gets called romance.

 

[Chony]

My favorite fantasy novel is probably Invisible Cities by Italo Calvino (who is apparently regarded as a literary writer). It's not about swords or sorcery or saving the world, more about exploration and imagination.

But it's not fantasy, it's

Spoiler

Venice!

Anyways, I decided to read Lord of the Rings, and it is very different than the movies. The movies should have broken out in song every five minutes.

 

[I_D]

Read the entire Drizzt Do Urden series from R.A. Salvatore (including the Cleric Quintet).

That crushes any other fantasy series out there, IMO.



Also... check out stuff from Orson Scott Card (scifi is a type of fantasy, dammit!). He is absolutely amazing.

 

[echoshifting]

Read the entire Drizzt Do Urden series from R.A. Salvatore (including the Cleric Quintet).

That crushes any other fantasy series out there, IMO.

No offense - at all - but man I couldn't read twenty pages of this shit. The praise Robert Jordan sometimes pulls, I get even though I hate the books, but I will never understand the love for these books. The craft is horrific.

Here are the first three pages. Please defend this.

 

[QVT]

Good lord no. May Jordan rest in peace but...just....no. If you must stick to the first four or five but even those are your typical barely passable bloated garbage.

They are indeed, really really bad.

When 8 out of your 11 novels in a series are longer than War and Peace, just fucking stop it.

Echo, the Salvatore guys are joke posting. He's the guy who does the Forgotten Realms books :lol

 

[Scribble]

You can laugh as long as you want. I was merely stating the facts. It's certainly not that a genre necessarily makes a poor book, but looking at it, apparently most books in certain genres are bad.

And that's because the genre happens to have writers that aren't competent enough to do justice to the genre, right? The problem isn't magic swords, made-up creatures and names and whatever, it's the fact that authors think that they can just dump all those conventions on to paper and call it a fantasy novel, without implementing the elements that make a quality story (i.e. character development). As with any idea, it's all about execution, and some writers think that a fantasy story can survive purely on "The ancient sword of Gafalmalamalamr is hidden on the floating island of Neolopolis, waiting for the legendary hero Eragon to pull it out of its rock, which is, by the way, covered with the scriptures of the ancient warrior civilisation of Ahklfhwesrg"

With ASOIAF, I tend to appreciate the fantasy elements more because they compliment three dimensional characters, and the kind of plot that doesn't rely on magical stuffs to succeed. I dunno...

 

[twinturbo2]

Funny that you guys bring this up, because I'm taking a fantasy lit class right now...

 

[Scribble]

Funny that you guys bring this up, because I'm taking a fantasy lit class right now...

Those exist? Wow o_o

 

[echoshifting]

Echo, the Salvatore guys are joke posting. He's the guy who does the Forgotten Realms books :lol

Thank god. The sample I posted is...just....it's just....Crenshinibon...

 

[batbeg]

Funny that you guys bring this up, because I'm taking a fantasy lit class right now...

According to some of the snobby asshats around here, I believe you mean a "fantasy non-lit class".

 

[Chairman Yang]

Anyone who talks about a genre as being more original or diverse than any other is loco. Sci-fi is filled with the same ratio of garbage as all genres, I'd say, and is definitely chock-full of generic crap.

Not that I'm dissing sci-fi, sci-fi and fantasy are my favorite genres when done well, I guess. But no genre is inherently more unique than any other.

Not sure I'd agree with that. Different genres have different goals, right? In that case, a genre focused on speculation and the exploration of new and large-scale ideas (sci-fi) would naturally have a higher ratio of books that do that. A genre focused on escapism (like romance novels or fantasy) would correspondingly have a higher ratio of books that are escapist.

If you look at it that way, some genres ARE more original or diverse than others. Pick up a random hard sci-fi novel, and you'll have a higher chance of finding something original and diverse than when you pick up a random romance novel, for example.

 

[twinturbo2]

According to some of the snobby asshats around here, I believe you mean a "fantasy non-lit class".

No, it's a fantasy lit class. :kittonwyindifferent.jpg:

 

[MoxManiac]

I like fantasy in video games because the outlandish and ridiculous facets of it make for good gameplay and level design devices. Not sure I'd bother with novels, though.

To be honest I haven't read a book in like 7 years so what do I know :lol

 

[Gaborn]

My username is proof there is nothing wrong with Fantasy novels. (David Farland FTW, even if Martin is so much better).

 

[BluWacky]

To answer the original post - fantasy is generally escapism for geeks, whereas romance novels are escapism for girls and Clive Cussler/Tom Clancy is escapism for the slightly more blokey reader. Escapist novels are generally more about having fun than writing decent literature, and most of them follow a very similar pattern.

I don't think there's anything wrong with generic quest/coming of age/whatever fantasy novels whatsoever. It's not like I'm uncultured or anything (I work in theatre and studied classics) but most of the time I just like to read not particularly sophisticated books about young people gaining nifty powers and smiting evil (I'm relatively unashamed to admit that I love the Belgariad, for one). If I make a recommendation for a fantasy novel to someone it's not generally because I think they're reading a work of amazing literature, it's because I think the book's fun to read. If I want to recommend a genuinely decent book I'll point to the Richard and Judy Book Club

I do agree that there's a lot of bloat in fantasy novels, but then I think it's because it's easier to bloat an adventure than a character study. The Odyssey may be one of the greatest pieces of literature ever, but that's more down to the artifice of creating such an epic poem rather than it not being padded with random fantastical moments that no-one really remembers about in the long run. I tend not to read the truly bloated fantasy stuff, though (aside from my David Eddings lapse of judgement) - I got through one book of Wheel of Time before I lost the will to live, for instance.

 

[sammy]

I've never felt there was anything wrong with traditional fantasy novels, but i've never touched them. They just seem to have one root, like everything stems from Tolkien ... it's the only genre that seems you can narrow it all down to one author.

So wouldn't the genre be mostly just "fan-fiction"? Not that that can't be amazing, but when someone says the word "fantasy" i expect to be plunged into a universe I'm completely new to.

I lose interest in any fantasy when medieval characteristics show themselves. it reminds me too much of real human history, that i would rather be reading or watching.

 

[hiryu]

As has been mentioned in this thread if you want to read good fantasy read Erikson, Martin, or Wolfe.

 

[Chichikov]

There’s nothing wrong with fantastical elements in writing; Gogol, Bulgakov, Borges, Kafka, Rushdie (too name a few) all wrote books that going by the strict meaning of the word should be classified as "Fantasy".
But they are seldom branded that way, as this adjective is usually reserved to books with embossed golden letters and pictures of dragons on their cover (yay baiting, don’t fall for it, please).
So to answer the OP, why do people that only brand what they perceive as tripe as Fantasy do not think highly of Fantasy?
It should be obvious.