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For those of you who put your faith in Science.

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ToxicAdam

Member
A common theme among some GAF'fers is that science is the end all-be all of critical thought and fact finding. Good on paper, but the problem is that humans are involved.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/04/14/mit.prank.reut/index.html

CAMBRIDGE, Massachusetts (Reuters) -- In a victory for pranksters at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, a bunch of computer-generated gibberish masquerading as an academic paper has been accepted at a scientific conference.

Jeremy Stribling said Thursday that he and two fellow MIT graduate students questioned the standards of some academic conferences, so they wrote a computer program to generate research papers complete with "context-free grammar," charts and diagrams.

The trio submitted two of the randomly assembled papers to the World Multi-Conference on Systemics, Cybernetics and Informatics (WMSCI), scheduled to be held July 10-13 in Orlando, Florida.

To their surprise, one of the papers -- "Rooter: A Methodology for the Typical Unification of Access Points and Redundancy" -- was accepted for presentation.

The prank recalled a 1996 hoax in which New York University physicist Alan Sokal succeeded in getting an entire paper with a mix of truths, falsehoods, non sequiturs and otherwise meaningless mumbo-jumbo published in the quarterly journal Social Text, published by Duke University Press.

Stribling said he and his colleagues only learned about the Social Text affair after submitting their paper.

"Rooter" features such mind-bending gems as: "the model for our heuristic consists of four independent components: simulated annealing, active networks, flexible modalities, and the study of reinforcement learning" and "We implemented our scatter/gather I/O server in Simula-67, augmented with opportunistically pipelined extensions."

Stribling said the trio targeted WMSCI because it is notorious within the field of computer science for sending copious e-mails that solicit admissions to the conference.

The idea of a fake submission was to counter "fake conferences...which exist only to make money," explained Stribling and his cohorts' website, "SCIgen - An Automatic CS Paper Generator."

"Our aim is to maximize amusement, rather than coherence," it said. The website allows users to "Generate a Random Paper" themselves, with fields for inserting "optional author names."

"Contrarily, the lookaside buffer might not be the panacea..."
Nagib Callaos, a conference organizer, said the paper was one of a small number accepted on a "non-reviewed" basis -- meaning that reviewers had not yet given their feedback by the acceptance deadline.

"We thought that it might be unfair to refuse a paper that was not refused by any of its three selected reviewers," Callaos wrote in an e-mail. "The author of a non-reviewed paper has complete responsibility of the content of their paper."

However, Callaos said conference organizers were reviewing their acceptance procedures in light of the hoax.

Asked whether he would disinvite the MIT students, Callos replied, "Bogus papers should not be included in the conference program."

Stribling said conference organizers had not yet formally rescinded their invitation to present the paper.

The students were soliciting cash donations so they could attend the conference and give what Stribling billed as a "completely randomly-generated talk, delivered entirely with a straight face."

They exceeded their goal, with $2,311.09 cents from 165 donors.
 

explodet

Member
I'm not sure what the point is here.

So the years of research put into say, nuclear physics, was just a giant joke by Rutherford, Bohr, Einstein and Oppenheimer?

mushroom-cloud.jpg


APRIL FOOLS!

(we need pretzels, repeat, pretzels)
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
ToxicAdam said:
A common theme among some GAF'fers is that science is the end all-be all of critical thought and fact finding. Good on paper, but the problem is that humans are involved.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/04/14/mit.prank.reut/index.html

old. And there's evidence that they're paper got accepted into the conference without being peer reviewed, by accident (they got a follow-up letter asking for the paper because it had been lost).
 

olimario

Banned
Boogie said:
Religious people with an obsessive beef against Science drive me crazy. :p


Science people with an obsessive beef against religion who think the two can't coexist on any plain drive me nutty!

What the scientific community accepts as fact now is not necessarily what they'll accept as fact 30, 50, 100 years from now.
 

border

Member
This is a funny story.

The point you are trying to make with it is totally fucking retarded, however. This was an experiment to discredit profit-oriented conference organizers with no standards, not discredit the entire scientific community.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
border said:
This is a funny story.

The point you are trying to make with it is totally fucking retarded, however. This was an experiment to discredit profit-oriented conference organizers with no standards, not discredit the entire scientific community.


My point wasn't to discredit science, but to prove that ALL science is not fact. i see too many people that link/credit science studies that come from conferences/published journals like these.


So, if that is retarded, then I have alot to learn.
 
olimario said:
What the scientific community accepts as fact now is not necessarily what they'll accept as fact 30, 50, 100 years from now.

At this point, no (reputable) scientist calls anything "fact" that even has the slightest chance of being refuted. Most of what modern science knows is based on theory, which is much more malleable, and extremely different than fact.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Boogie said:
Religious people with an obsession against Science drive me crazy. :p


It would be true if I were a religious person.

But the same holds true to people that hold scientific studies and papers like the word of (a) god. Science is sometimes more about funding and notoriety than actual fact finding. This should never be ignored.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
IAmtheFMan said:
At this point, no (reputable) scientist calls anything "fact" that even has the slightest chance of being refuted. Most of what modern science knows is based on theory, which is much more malleable, and extremely different than fact.

I would like to introduce you to enviromental scientists.
 

border

Member
ToxicAdam said:
My point wasn't to discredit science, but to prove that ALL science is not fact. i see too many people that link/credit science studies that come from conferences/published journals like these.
You think people really needed your help to understand that not all scientific papers are true (or credible)? You seem to have a pretty low opinion of people =P
 

Boogie

Member
It just seems to me that the people who vehemently rally against Teh Science have a poor understanding of what exactly science is and isn't.
 
Boogie said:
It just seems to me that the people who vehemently rally against Teh Science have a poor understanding of what exactly science is and isn't.

Who needs science when you have faith? You don't even need to understand faith. It just works.

For user compatibility... Faith > Science
 

Dilbert

Member
ToxicAdam said:
My point wasn't to discredit science, but to prove that ALL science is not fact. i see too many people that link/credit science studies that come from conferences/published journals like these.


So, if that is retarded, then I have alot to learn.
Yes, you DO have a lot to learn.

Scientific theories may originate as a paper published in one or more journals, but they do not become accepted until the hypothesis is verified through independent replication of the results and plenty of peer review. No single paper should ever be taken as "fact," and anyone with half a clue about science knows that.

Further, the title of your thread is deliberately misleading. As border pointed out, getting a fake paper into a conference to make a point has nothing to do with the veracity of scientific thought as a whole.

Finally, I'd love to see the list of people on this forum who claim that "science is the end-all-be-all of critical thought and fact finding." I've been here a long time, and I can't remember anyone who said that...much less several people.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Boogie said:
It just seems to me that the people who vehemently rally against Teh Science have a poor understanding of what exactly science is and isn't.


Like religion, science is SUPPOSED to be about finding truth and helping out humanity .... but often times both end up being more about money.


Why can't you admit that a portion of science is corrupted/guided by money?
 
I have formed a hypothesis that ToxicAdam is a goddamn moron!

I will watch this thread closely for further evidence so that my hypothesis can become a theory!
 
Haha, I love how these quasi-Libertarian conservative types are trying to deperately justify the behavior of their Fundamentalist comrades by squealing about the purported judgmentalism and/or "corruption" of the secular/liberal/scientific community.

Everything that can be institutionalized receives some guidance from money -- it's called fucking capitalism.

The paper you cited, however, has nothing to do with "science" but rather the use of inscrutable language by specifically the computer science theory community to rope in a few dopes with smoke and mirrors. How this might be extrapolated as endemic to the entire greater "science" community is beyond me. At best, it's a commentary on the linguistic excesses of computer science; at worst, it's a poke in the eye to computer science academic rigor in general.

How this applies to environmental science -- ever a bugaboo for anti-regulatory Libertarian Randtards -- is beyond me.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
-jinx- said:
Further, the title of your thread is deliberately misleading. As border pointed out, getting a fake paper into a conference to make a point has nothing to do with the veracity of scientific thought as a whole.
.


Yea, it's kind of stupid. It would be like pointing out one blurb or mistake that a politician says/makes, and then trying to discredit his whole political party with it.


Oh wait .. that happens here every day.
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
ToxicAdam said:
Yea, it's kind of stupid. It would be like pointing out one blurb or mistake that a politician says/makes, and then trying to discredit his whole political party with it.


Oh wait .. that happens here every day.

In all fairness, with Bush that happens a hell of a lot more often than you give him credit for. And he is supposed to be the leader of his party.
 

border

Member
ToxicAdam said:
Why can't you admit that a portion of science is corrupted/guided by money?
Where has he denied this? Anyone that even glances at the pharmaceutical industry can see the influence of greed and money.
 
ToxicAdam said:
Yea, it's kind of stupid. It would be like pointing out one blurb or mistake that a politician says/makes, and then trying to discredit his whole political party with it.


Oh wait .. that happens here every day.

It's true that many scientific theories can't be "proven." But they can be shown to be consistent with all known evidence, such that their veracity is established beyond any shadow of reasonable doubt!

By page three of this thread, I hope to have enough evidence to submit a paper on why ToxicAdam is a goddamn moron to a reputable scientific journal!
 

Dilbert

Member
ToxicAdam said:
Yea, it's kind of stupid. It would be like pointing out one blurb or mistake that a politician says/makes, and then trying to discredit his whole political party with it.


Oh wait .. that happens here every day.
Are you irony-impaired or something?
 
Every aspect of humanity can be corrupted by greed/money, so I don't know what that has to do with anything.

If science didn't work for us, most of our technologies (NASA doesn't go into space praying to God), our way of living, the car you drive, the computer you type on, our understanding of physics, biology, chemistry, etc. etc. etc. wouldn't work period.
 
"Finite Non-Deterministic Behaviors of Political Conservatives: Resolving Cyclical Redundancies in O(n log n) GAF Thread Time" will be offered by Professor Drinky Q. Crow at this year's GAFFOT Computing conference. Please pre-register for this seminar by contacting Orin Services and providing your v-card at the desk.
 

LakeEarth

Member
Like others have said, it was a conference. Conferences usually don't have much standards, and this conference was probably poorly organized. If he got it published in a journal, THEN I would be pissed because it's really really hard to do that, even with real informaiton.
 

KingGondo

Banned
Honestly, I take that as more of a hit against academia than against science as a practice. Most academic journals have been bloated, self-important, useless rags for years.

(although I agree that science, being a human practice, is inherently flawed in certain ways)
 

Flynn

Member
Science has something called peer review. It failed in this situation, but the truth came out in the end.

That's why you don't need to put faith in science.

Religion has nothing of this sort, thus requiring buttloads of faith.

I'll still take science over some book written by sheep fuckers, translated by kings and imprecise monks, then dumbed down so as to be "good news" to people with poor reading comprehension. Even if the bible was the true word of God, the thousands of years of telephone that humanity has played with his words have surely managed to twist every one of his intentions into garbled nonsense.
 

Crandle

Member
How is it new and innovative to point out that science and reason aren't ABSOLUTELY INFALLIBLE and (more importantly) can be corrupted by delusional or nefarious people? The fucking French Revolution still hasn't been topped in teaching that lesson.

It's like a lot of the...crazier religious people expect their evil nemesis "reason" to be omnipotent, and when they uncover the shocking truth that it's actually not they've made some kind of point. Wow, you've proven that science doesn't have all the answers (those vile ultra-reductionist scientists!) and that, gasp, it may sometimes operate without massive amounts of evidence. I'll still take "some" over "none" pretty much every time, though. Please keep your saddle-equipped-dinosaur theories the fuck out of my country's schools.
 

Socreges

Banned
JackFrost2012 said:
I have formed a hypothesis that ToxicAdam is a goddamn moron!

I will watch this thread closely for further evidence so that my hypothesis can become a theory!
cubicle47b said:
Evidence from previous threads supports this hypothesis. I think we should compile a list.
:lol
 
Drinky Crow said:
Haha, I love how these quasi-Libertarian conservative types are trying to deperately justify the behavior of their Fundamentalist comrades by squealing about the purported judgmentalism and/or "corruption" of the secular/liberal/scientific community.

Everything that can be institutionalized receives some guidance from money -- it's called fucking capitalism.

The paper you cited, however, has nothing to do with "science" but rather the use of inscrutable language by specifically the computer science theory community to rope in a few dopes with smoke and mirrors. How this might be extrapolated as endemic to the entire greater "science" community is beyond me. At best, it's a commentary on the linguistic excesses of computer science; at worst, it's a poke in the eye to computer science academic rigor in general.

How this applies to environmental science -- ever a bugaboo for anti-regulatory Libertarian Randtards -- is beyond me.


Not trying to kiss ass or anything, but half the fun of coming to these threads is to read your responses. Do you come out with this stuff in person to? I just imagine the person you're debating with to be all silent and confused when your finished. Must be pretty damn funny. I would be such an instigator if I knew you in person. I'd try to spark up some newb who doesn't know you with a "hot" debate just to watch you go to town. :lol
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
Drinky Crow said:
"Finite Non-Deterministic Behaviors of Political Conservatives: Resolving Cyclical Redundancies in O(n log n) GAF Thread Time" will be offered by Professor Drinky Q. Crow at this year's GAFFOT Computing conference. Please pre-register for this seminar by contacting Orin Services and providing your v-card at the desk.

Man, you'd be ripping people off. It's pretty simple - attack the source given liberal is quoting. If that fails, resort to ad hominem attacks on said liberal. Emphasize lack of patriotism and godliness. Add power to argument with attacks on "activist judges" and "liberal media." Drive point home with appeal to authority, preferably quoting one of the following sources: Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Joe Scarborough. Pat yourself on back. Rinse, repeat.
 

Shig

Strap on your hooker ...
Flynn said:
Science has something called peer review. It failed in this situation, but the truth came out in the end.

That's why you don't need to put faith in science.

Religion has nothing of this sort, thus requiring buttloads of faith.

I'll still take science over some book written by sheep fuckers, translated by kings and imprecise monks, then dumbed down so as to be "good news" to people with poor reading comprehension. Even if the bible was the true word of God, the thousands of years of telephone that humanity has played with his words have surely managed to twist every one of his intentions into garbled nonsense.
My thoughts on organized religion precisely.
 
Hey, it's a computer science conference! Of course I'd just be ripping off someone else's hard work -- at least when I'm not makin' shit up, apparently!
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
One of the qualities of proper Science is that you don't have to put faith in a single damn thing*. You can redo every single experiment, inspect all evidence, and double check all procedures if you wanted to and had the needed time and resources. Unfortunately, people who flunked science class in school would rather sick back and play armchair crank.

[* Ok, except the untestable idea that the Magic Buffalo whisked our world into existence with everything set up to make us THINK that all of this is true.]

JackFrost2012 said:
I have formed a hypothesis that ToxicAdam is a goddamn moron!

I will watch this thread closely for further evidence so that my hypothesis can become a theory!
Here's what it would be: The reason ToxicAdam's posts are repeatedly observed to be lacking any depth of thought or research is because ToxicAdam himself lacks the mental capacity to produce such qualities in his writing. Also, this is falsifiable by discovery of an original ToxicAdam post that demonstrates true insight or understanding of a subject as determined by a sizable portion of his audience.

[Remember, no matter how much this may or may not be confirmed, this will never be anything other than a theory, as theories are explanations or models while laws are generalized observations] ;)
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Zelda-Bitch said:
Not trying to kiss ass or anything, but half the fun of coming to these threads is to read your responses. Do you come out with this stuff in person to? I just imagine the person you're debating with to be all silent and confused when your finished. Must be pretty damn funny. I would be such an instigator if I knew you in person. I'd try to spark up some newb who doesn't know you with a "hot" debate just to watch you go to town. :lol


No, it comes across much worse than ass kissing.


But to be expected from someone that is impressed by five syllable words and someone who uses 100 words when 6 will do.

It was amusing to me to throw an enviromental science remark in one post, and see some people take the bait and launch into a frenzy. Good show.
 
ToxicAdam said:
It was amusing to me to throw an enviromental science remark in one post, and see some people take the bait and launch into a frenzy. Good show.

That's the most pathetic attempt at saving face I have ever read, you managed to top yourself in your own thread. Good show.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
brooklyngooner said:
That's the most pathetic attempt at saving face I have ever read, you managed to top yourself in your own thread. Good show.


If you are looking for someone to combat each and every barb directed at him, and try to win "internet arguements" ... then you would want to look in the mirror.
 

sprsk

force push the doodoo rock
ToxicAdam said:
No, it comes across much worse than ass kissing.


But to be expected from someone that is impressed by five syllable words and someone who uses 100 words when 6 will do.

It was amusing to me to throw an enviromental science remark in one post, and see some people take the bait and launch into a frenzy. Good show.


which is a better cut down (mind you im not incredibly witty but just bear with me)

Fuck you!

or

The stench of your ever sweaty butt cheeks offends everyone you walk across.



The more descriptive you are the better!
 
This was an exceedingly stupid thread, don't bother trying to save face. It's just terrible self-ownage (which is a trend, if I'm remembering the big Schiavo thread correctly).

edit: I was wrong, it wasn't you.
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
ToxicAdam:

We've been here before. You don't like the political implications of some scientific research, so you try to impugn the research itself. In this case, you try to make some vague point about science in general, as if all science is the same, and should be trusted to the same extent.

When there's a staggering concensus among researchers in a field, based on decades of study by thousands of different people, that will tend to be given more weight than a single paper which hasn't even been presented. Do you understand this? Do you disagree with this?

You say a portion of science is based on raising funds. Which portion? The portion whose conclusions you disagree with? What are the documented cases of science being influenced by money, and is there a pattern?

See, instead of saying "Not all science is correct, so here are the skeptic standards we should apply," you're saying "Not all science is correct, so feel free to arbitrarily cherry-pick what you do and don't like."
 

Jeffahn

Member
Yet again Religion has proved itself over Science.

In related news:

Posted on Tue, Apr. 12, 2005

Boycott

Evolution hearings rejected by scientists

The nation's scientific community has weighed in on the Kansas Board of Education's efforts to put Darwin on trial.

They're boycotting en masse.

This resounding rejection of the hearings speaks volumes about how the mainstream scientific community sees the Kansas evolution "controversy."

It has no credibility.

In recent weeks, the Kansas Department of Education staff has failed to find any scientists in Kansas or the nation who want to legitimize the upcoming May hearings with their presence.

Not one of Kansas' six major universities has agreed to send scientists.

Not one of the nation's top science organizations has responded to the request.

For the vast majority of scientists, the "controversy" about the legitimacy of evolutionary theory simply doesn't exist.

For them, evolution is a cornerstone of modern science in several fields, and its validity and usefulness is beyond dispute.

And the small number of intelligent design backers who want a forum have not begun to do the real work needed to challenge that consensus.

Predictably, BOE chairman Steve Abrams, one of three creationists who would preside over the hearings, suggested that the refusal meant the scientific community was incapable of defending evolution.

"It's almost like they're saying, 'We can't defend what's put out there, so we're not going to participate,'" Mr. Abrams said.

Well, no. It's almost like they're saying, "This rigged forum, with a predetermined outcome, has no credibility whatsoever in the scientific community. So what's the point?"

Baiting scientists won't get them to appear. Because as they rightly perceive, the hearings are a political effort to legitimize ID by parading a small number of "experts" before the public.

The board majority has announced a list of those ID witnesses, and while many have academic Ph.D.s, what they lack is telling: significant publications on ID in major science journals and mainstream conferences.

Some of them, such as lawyer John Calvert, aren't even scientists.

What scientists see is a monkey trial. What Kansans should see is a waste of time and money and, once again, a train wreck for the state's image.
For the editorial board, Randy Scholfield

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/editorial/11368773.htm

The latest on the Kansas kangaroo court

The American Association for the Advancement of Science -- the world's largest general science organization and the publisher of the journal Science -- announced on April 12, 2005, that it declined to participate in the scheduled six days of hearings in Kansas on the place of evolution in the state science standards, hearings that have been widely described as a "kangaroo court" on evolution. AAAS CEO Alan I. Leshner wrote, "The fundamental structure of the hearing suggests that the theory of evolution may be debated. ... The consensus view of the scientific community on evolution is well-established and presented clearly in the AAAS's Benchmarks for Scientific Literacy and in the National Academy's National Science Education Standards. Although scientists may debate details of the mechanisms of evolution, there is no argument among scientists as to whether evolution is taking place. We do not believe that any useful purpose would be served by our participation in this event."

In a column published on April 12, the Wichita Eagle's editorial board reflected on the success of the boycott: "This resounding rejection of the hearings speaks volumes about how the mainstream scientific community sees the Kansas evolution 'controversy.' It has no credibility." Quoting Steve Abrams -- the chairman of the Kansas State Board of Education, a member of the subcommittee responsible for the hearings, and a creationist himself -- as saying, "It's almost like they're saying, 'We can't defend what's put out there, so we're not going to participate,'" the Eagle replied, "Well, no. It's almost like they're saying, 'This rigged forum, with a predetermined outcome, has no credibility whatsoever in the scientific community. So what's the point?' Baiting scientists won't get them to appear. Because as they rightly perceive, the hearings are a political effort to legitimize ID by parading a small number of 'experts' before the public."

The six days of hearings were foreshadowed at a meeting of the Kansas State Board of Education on April 13, when a discussion of the latest draft of the revised science standards, scheduled to run for one hour, stretched to over three hours. The discussion reportedly centered, unsurprisingly, on the place of evolution in the standards, with proponents and opponents of the hearings taking the opportunity to voice their views. While the six conservatives "used their turns in the discussion to reiterate their support for the hearings as a way to help resolve the dispute," wrote the Wichita Eagle's Josh Funk, the four moderates on the board -- Carol Rupe, Bill Wagnon, Janet Waugh and Sue Gamble -- "reiterated their opposition to the hearings as unnecessary and a waste of time." Interviewed by the Johnson County Sun, Harry McDonald, the president of Kansas Citizens for Science, cited a further reason for concern about the hearings: "We will not be a party to spending tens of thousands of taxpayer dollars," McDonald said, "on a political stunt."

April 14, 2005

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2005/KS/80_the_latest_on_the_kansas_kanga_4_14_2005.asp

...
 
Hitokage said:
Also, this is falsifiable by discovery of an original ToxicAdam post that demonstrates true insight or understanding of a subject as determined by a sizable portion of his audience.
You can reject the suspect data point. ;)
 
ToxicAdam said:
No, it comes across much worse than ass kissing.


But to be expected from someone that is impressed by five syllable words and someone who uses 100 words when 6 will do.


Wow. You're a complete Douche. Maybe jesus told you to attack me?
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Mandark said:
ToxicAdam:

We've been here before. You don't like the political implications of some scientific research, so you try to impugn the research itself. In this case, you try to make some vague point about science in general, as if all science is the same, and should be trusted to the same extent.

When there's a staggering concensus among researchers in a field, based on decades of study by thousands of different people, that will tend to be given more weight than a single paper which hasn't even been presented. Do you understand this? Do you disagree with this?

You say a portion of science is based on raising funds. Which portion? The portion whose conclusions you disagree with? What are the documented cases of science being influenced by money, and is there a pattern?

See, instead of saying "Not all science is correct, so here are the skeptic standards we should apply," you're saying "Not all science is correct, so feel free to arbitrarily cherry-pick what you do and don't like."


Ok, well done.

Mandark is the only intelligent lib on here. The rest of you are bleating sheep. Defiant against close-minded thinkers yet clinging to an idealogy that is based on envy and false compassion. BAAA BAAA

:)
 
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