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luca_29_bg
Member
(02-24-2013, 05:47 AM)
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Please someone can explain me if it will be works ? Like as intended ? In deep down capcom has used this feature ?
IHaveCandy
Banned
(02-24-2013, 05:49 AM)
Is there an OpenGL equivalent?
Takuya
Banned
(02-24-2013, 05:51 AM)
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http://www.opengl.org/wiki/Tessellation
deviljho
Banned
(02-24-2013, 05:52 AM)

Originally Posted by luca_29_bg

In deep down capcom has used this feature ?

You really think that it doesn't?
JaseC
gave away the keys to the kingdom.
(02-24-2013, 05:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by IHaveCandy

Is there an OpenGL equivalent?

Yes. It's called "tessellation". ;)

Edit: Aww, beaten.
Man
Member
(02-24-2013, 06:00 AM)
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Sony uses LibGCM as a graphics library (their own creation) mainly, not OpenGL (or PSGL) or DirectX. But yes, rest assured it has all the next-gen graphical features. It's also the most flexible library and closest to the metal. PS3, Vita and PS4 all have a version of LibGCM. You can use OpenGL/PSGL on PS3 but it's not well optimized and you need to use LibGCM for stereoscopic 3D etc. 99% of PS developers use LibGCM.
Last edited by Man; 02-24-2013 at 06:03 AM.
FastRedPonyCar
Banned
(02-24-2013, 06:02 AM)
it appeared as if though destiny had tesselated floors and I think I saw tesselation on the killzone demo.
Blades64
Banned
(02-24-2013, 06:03 AM)
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what does tessellation do? What is tessellation?
TheJerit
Member
(02-24-2013, 06:04 AM)
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This, or other bells and whistles, are not soley under DirectX. It is just the software architecture that's been written for the developers to tap into these things in the hardware/software in an environment they are familar with (such as DX in this case) and makes it easy for them.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
thesuperfunk
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(02-24-2013, 06:05 AM)
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I thought the PS4 was DX11 based and the Durango a specialised DX11.1?
TokiDoki
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(02-24-2013, 06:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by Blades64

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what does tessellation do? What is tessellation?



More pronounced surface is one of the usage .
injurai
Member
(02-24-2013, 06:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by Blades64

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what does tessellation do? What is tessellation?

It repeats geometric arrangements of polygons to get more detail out of only render a small piece of a repeating pattern. It's mostly used to define smoother definitions or more interesting textures over top of a surface that has already been flushed out in various low and high polygon models. So it increases polygon counts without being drastically taxing on your gpu.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(02-24-2013, 06:08 AM)
Is tessellation like bump mapping? Is it just an illusion to give a flat surface depth, or is there real depth to the geometry?
Blades64
Banned
(02-24-2013, 06:09 AM)

Originally Posted by TokiDoki



More pronounced surface is one of the usage .

Originally Posted by injurai

It repeats geometric arrangements of polygons to get more detail out of only render a small piece of a repeating pattern. It's mostly used to define smoother definitions or more interesting textures over top of a surface that has already been flushed out in various low and high polygon models. So it increases polygon counts without being drastically taxing on your gpu.

Thanks for the answers! I understand now! :)
KidBeta
Junior Member
(02-24-2013, 06:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by IHaveCandy

Is tessellation like bump mapping? Is it just an illusion to give a flat surface depth, or is there real depth to the geometry?

Tessellation is like bump mapping, except it actually edits the geometry and gives it depth.
LumpOfCole
Cereal Killer
(02-24-2013, 06:11 AM)
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I remember Dragon Age II using tesselation to eat my feet with extra floor geometry, making my companions and myself look like Fire Emblem characters when standing.
JJD
Member
(02-24-2013, 06:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by Man

Sony uses LibGCM as a graphics library (their own creation) mainly, not OpenGL (or PSGL) or DirectX. But yes, rest assured it has all the next-gen graphical features. It's also the most flexible library and closest to the metal. PS3, Vita and PS4 all have a version of LibGCM. You can use OpenGL/PSGL on PS3 but it's not well optimized and you need to use LibGCM for stereoscopic 3D etc. 99% of PS developers use LibGCM.

OpenGL is a layered API on the PS3. That's why it isn't well optimized. LibGCM was better because it was the main system.

There's been talk that the PS4 will support OpenGL natively.

If the PS4 has native OpenGL and the steambox really runs Lynux, OpenGL support will get exponentially better.
HolyBaikal
Japanese Culture Expert
(02-24-2013, 06:18 AM)
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If the PlayStation 4 is using OpenGL. And the new XBOX is using DirectX.

Then I am really, really looking forward to all of the PC games we'll likely be getting that used to be console exclusives.

I'll take Persona 5 in Steam, please.
JJD
Member
(02-24-2013, 06:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by HolyBaikal

If the PlayStation 4 is using OpenGL. And the new XBOX is using DirectX.

Then I am really, really looking forward to all of the PC games we'll likely be getting that used to be console exclusives.

I'll take Persona 5 in Steam, please.

I can't see how that will change anything.

360 already uses DirectX 9 if I'm not mistaken.

Edit: It uses an advanced version of DirectX 9.
Nirolak
Mrgrgr
(02-24-2013, 06:22 AM)
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To be entirely clear modern PlayStation consoles use Sony's LibGCM, not bog standard OpenGL.
Pray For Death
Member
(02-24-2013, 06:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by LumpOfCole

I remember Dragon Age II using tesselation to eat my feet with extra floor geometry, making my companions and myself look like Fire Emblem characters when standing.

I'm pretty sure DA2 didn't support DX11.

Edit: nevermind, was wrong
Last edited by Pray For Death; 02-24-2013 at 06:29 AM.
Nirolak
Mrgrgr
(02-24-2013, 06:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by Pray For Death

I'm pretty sure DA2 didn't support DX11.

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/15964-...iled-pictured/
RazorbackDB
Member
(02-24-2013, 06:27 AM)
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so tessellation is patented by microsoft or something now?
Pray For Death
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(02-24-2013, 06:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nirolak

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/15964-...iled-pictured/

Hah, I stand corrected. For some reason I always thought it was DX9.
JJD
Member
(02-24-2013, 06:31 AM)
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Originally Posted by RazorbackDB

so tessellation is patented by microsoft or something now?

No.

Originally Posted by Pray For Death

Hah, I stand corrected. For some reason I always thought it was DX9.

Maybe it was because of how shitty it looked! =)
Last edited by JJD; 02-24-2013 at 06:33 AM.
Pimpbaa
Official Forum Cocksucker
(02-24-2013, 06:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by thesuperfunk

I thought the PS4 was DX11 based and the Durango a specialised DX11.1?

The ps4 is not even running any variant of windows, how the hell is it supposed to using DX11? DX11 is an API, not hardware.
artist
Banned
(02-24-2013, 06:38 AM)
It looked like it was already in use in Shadow Fall

RazorbackDB
Member
(02-24-2013, 06:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by JJD

No.

you didn't get my sarcasm :/
Demon Ice
Banned
(02-24-2013, 06:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by IHaveCandy

Is tessellation like bump mapping? Is it just an illusion to give a flat surface depth, or is there real depth to the geometry?

As I understand it it's adding actual geometry. So not like bump mapping. You can see the effects of tessellation if you look at the model wireframes.

HolyBaikal
Japanese Culture Expert
(02-24-2013, 06:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by JJD

I can't see how that will change anything.

360 already uses DirectX 9 if I'm not mistaken.

But the XBOX 360 was on power architecture.

If I'm not mistaken, the major hurdle for many companies not wanting to port to the PC, Bandai Namco for instance. Is satisfying two things, architecture like x86 and a PC common API like OpenGL or DirectX. Or do all modern consoles use some form of OpenGL or DirectX?

I guess what I'm getting at, if is they're already using a PC API and a PC architecture(x86-64), what other major hurdles could their possibly then be there to prevent developers from porting to the PC? OS and different kernels, I would imagine. Consoles have a very specialized OS that isn't typically very common.

As it turns out, it sounds like what Sony uses is a Unix-like FreeBSD variant. Most non-Windows operating systems are. Unix-like, that is. I hardly hear of any non-Windows OS that isn't considered "Unix-like" in some way. Which also probably doesn't tell me much, either.

But at this point it shouldn't be so difficult to develop for the PC. And that's something I'm excited about. Because one of the biggest things getting in between me and having my PC my only go to device for games is the lack of games that are console exclusives. Most of my favourite games of all time fall under that.

So this is very interesting to me as I wasn't aware that the PlayStation 3 even used OpenGL. I had figured it was some console exclusive esoteric API. That means I can place some fair certainty that pretty much all the consoles this generation are practically PCs, whether Unix like or Windows like. It ignites my imagination and wonder.
bounchfx
Member
(02-24-2013, 06:49 AM)
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you guys might find this enlightening: http://www.marmoset.co/toolbag/learn/displacement
UrbanRats
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(02-24-2013, 06:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Blades64

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what does tessellation do? What is tessellation?

It made Max's head really round and smooth in Max Payne 3.
Branduil
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(02-24-2013, 06:52 AM)
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Whatever happened to parallax mapping? It was played up as a big thing a few years ago and then barely ever used.
Pimpbaa
Official Forum Cocksucker
(02-24-2013, 06:53 AM)
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Originally Posted by HolyBaikal

But the XBOX 360 was on power architecture.

What does that have to do with the 360 using a variant of windows and directx? And it has already been stated that LibGCM (not opengl) is used on sony's platforms and used by most games.
Last edited by Pimpbaa; 02-24-2013 at 06:55 AM.
JJD
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(02-24-2013, 06:53 AM)
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Originally Posted by RazorbackDB

you didn't get my sarcasm :/

Lol, sorry! My detector is broken! =)
KojiKnight
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(02-24-2013, 06:54 AM)
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Tesselation is nothing new... DX11 didn't suddenly invent it, it only standardized it across it's API.

AMD has had methods of tesselation since the original 8000 series GPUs (that's DX8 in 2001!) it was known as Truform at the time.

They, more recently, had another big demonstration of the same principle for their DX10 cards (4800 series) that also should off tesselation, again before Microsoft standardized it in DX11.

Hardware based tesselation is old hat so it's no surprise at all that PS4 supports it.
Last edited by KojiKnight; 02-24-2013 at 07:13 AM.
UrbanRats
Member
(02-24-2013, 06:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by Branduil

Whatever happened to parallax mapping? It was played up as a big thing a few years ago and then barely ever used.

I saw in one of the Crysis 3 videos (on PC) they used it with trees and shit.
It wasn't tassellation based though.. i don't know.
RazorbackDB
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(02-24-2013, 06:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by Branduil

Whatever happened to parallax mapping? It was played up as a big thing a few years ago and then barely ever used.

crysis 3 uses it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG29M...tailpage#t=72s
Swifty
Member
(02-24-2013, 06:59 AM)

Originally Posted by JJD

OpenGL is a layered API on the PS3. That's why it isn't well optimized. LibGCM was better because it was the main system.

There's been talk that the PS4 will support OpenGL natively.

If the PS4 has native OpenGL and the steambox really runs Lynux, OpenGL support will get exponentially better.

Originally Posted by HolyBaikal

If the PlayStation 4 is using OpenGL. And the new XBOX is using DirectX.

Then I am really, really looking forward to all of the PC games we'll likely be getting that used to be console exclusives.

I'll take Persona 5 in Steam, please.

Originally Posted by HolyBaikal

But the XBOX 360 was on power architecture.

If I'm not mistaken, the major hurdle for many companies not wanting to port to the PC, Bandai Namco for instance. Is satisfying two things, architecture like x86 and a PC common API like OpenGL or DirectX. Or do all modern consoles use some form of OpenGL or DirectX?

I guess what I'm getting at, if is they're already using a PC API and a PC architecture(x86-64), what other major hurdles could their possibly then be there to prevent developers from porting to the PC? OS and different kernels, I would imagine. Consoles have a very specialized OS that isn't typically very common.

As it turns out, it sounds like what Sony uses is a Unix-like FreeBSD variant. Most non-Windows operating systems are. Unix-like, that is. I hardly hear of any non-Windows OS that isn't considered "Unix-like" in some way. Which also probably doesn't tell me much, either.

But at this point it shouldn't be so difficult to develop for the PC. And that's something I'm excited about. Because one of the biggest things getting in between me and having my PC my only go to device for games is the lack of games that are console exclusives. Most of my favourite games of all time fall under that.

So this is very interesting to me as I wasn't aware that the PlayStation 3 even used OpenGL. I had figured it was some console exclusive esoteric API. That means I can place some fair certainty that pretty much all the consoles this generation are practically PCs, whether Unix like or Windows like. It ignites my imagination and wonder.

I can most assure you that developers on the PS4 will not be using OpenGL. The comments about libGCM are correct. A similar library will exist on the PS4.

Originally Posted by Branduil

Whatever happened to parallax mapping? It was played up as a big thing a few years ago and then barely ever used.

Tessellation can straight up replace parallax mapping. Both uses some sort of height maps but tesellation can actually create the geometry implied by a height map.
Last edited by Swifty; 02-24-2013 at 07:01 AM.
LiquidSolid
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(02-24-2013, 07:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nirolak

To be entirely clear modern PlayStation consoles use Sony's LibGCM, not bog standard OpenGL.

Using bog standard OpenGL would be stupid anyway, as there's a lot of pointless and redundant crap in there. While OpenGL ES is an even worse option, as it's more for mobile phones than next gen consoles or modern PC's.

This is why the rumours of the PS4 natively supporting OpenGL make absolutely no sense to me. Maybe the very first devkits supported it because the PS4's version of LibGCM wasn't ready at that point but there's no way it's the permanent solution.

Originally Posted by HolyBaikal

But the XBOX 360 was on power architecture.

If I'm not mistaken, the major hurdle for many companies not wanting to port to the PC, Bandai Namco for instance. Is satisfying two things, architecture like x86 and a PC common API like OpenGL or DirectX. Or do all modern consoles use some form of OpenGL or DirectX?

I guess what I'm getting at, if is they're already using a PC API and a PC architecture(x86-64), what other major hurdles could their possibly then be there to prevent developers from porting to the PC? OS and different kernels, I would imagine. Consoles have a very specialized OS that isn't typically very common.

As it turns out, it sounds like what Sony uses is a Unix-like FreeBSD variant. Most non-Windows operating systems are. Unix-like, that is. I hardly hear of any non-Windows OS that isn't considered "Unix-like" in some way. Which also probably doesn't tell me much, either.

But at this point it shouldn't be so difficult to develop for the PC. And that's something I'm excited about. Because one of the biggest things getting in between me and having my PC my only go to device for games is the lack of games that are console exclusives. Most of my favourite games of all time fall under that.

So this is very interesting to me as I wasn't aware that the PlayStation 3 even used OpenGL. I had figured it was some console exclusive esoteric API. That means I can place some fair certainty that pretty much all the consoles this generation are practically PCs, whether Unix like or Windows like. It ignites my imagination and wonder.

No. It's already pretty easy to port your games from 360 to PC. The main thing stopping them from doing so is that they don't understand that market or actually give a shit in the first place. PC is a niche platform in Japan, so it's the equivalent of western publishers supporting the Wii U or something.
KojiKnight
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(02-24-2013, 07:03 AM)
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I see a lot of people saying "If the new consoles are similar to PC, why not just make a PC port?"


The simplest and best answer is because there are a lot more factors in testing and hardware support on PC.

First of all, unless you're a huge name company (Valve, Blizzard), you're going to be expected to be pushing the greatest pixels ever. This means increased work to take advantage of the latest and greatest hardware as soon as it comes out.

Second, you have a LOT LOT LOT more hardware to test for. For consoles, you'll be expected to test your game on maybe 1 or 2 seperate models to make sure there aren't any glitches. On PC, the number of hardware configurations is HUGE and a large portion of them have to be tested. On top of this, you have to provide extra support for all of those different configurations and likely spend a lot of time releasing game patches to fix them.
pottuvoi
Member
(02-24-2013, 07:08 AM)
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Also features like tesselation are not Dependant of API, but a hardware.
When people talk about dx11 and such they actually talk about hardware that is capable of requirements for a shader model 5.

Also tesselation itself only means creating new polygons within the old one, it doesn't change the topology of the original polygon at all.
Displacement mapping is something that displaces those created polygons/vertexes so that the new detail can be seen.
Displacement can be done whatever way developer wants, usually from heightmap, but I personally would like to see more vector displacements. (displace in X,Y,Z coordinates)

Also there are other methods than just use the dx11 path, here's a demo which uses DX8.
http://users.belgacom.net/gc610902/
Last edited by pottuvoi; 02-24-2013 at 07:13 AM.
thesuperfunk
Member
(02-24-2013, 07:23 AM)
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DELETED: wrong thread!
dragonbane
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(02-24-2013, 07:34 AM)
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It blew my mind that Wind Waker actually uses tessellation for the ocean rendering!
Ydahs
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(02-24-2013, 07:40 AM)
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Don't quote me on this, but I think Shinen said in a recent interview that their next WiiU game will be using tessellation. If the WiiU's GPU supports it, then rest assured the other next generation consoles do too.
RazorbackDB
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(02-24-2013, 07:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by Ydahs

Don't quote me on this, but I think Shinen said in a recent interview that their next WiiU game will be using tessellation. If the WiiU's GPU supports it, then rest assured the other next generation consoles do too.

wii u uses a r700 series based gpu so i think is possible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT_45...ailpage#t=119s
HolyBaikal
Japanese Culture Expert
(02-24-2013, 08:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by LiquidSolid

No. It's already pretty easy to port your games from 360 to PC. The main thing stopping them from doing so is that they don't understand that market or actually give a shit in the first place. PC is a niche platform in Japan, so it's the equivalent of western publishers supporting the Wii U or something.

It is things like this which I am hearing all of the time, on around a weekly basis lately, that makes me regret ever building a gaming PC. I built it for Final Fantasy XIV, a Japanese game, but still.

Now I'm stuck with a system I otherwise love, but has the opposite gaming culture of what I belong to so to speak. I'm not Japanese, but I like Japanese games... you get what I mean. Now I'm unrequited trying to more games on my system of choice now. Technically I've been a PC gamer since Windows XP and maybe even Windows 98, if you count emulation. But technically that was me wanting to play Super Nintendo games. Japanese games have always been the real reason I'm a console gamer. PC gaming is only the master race if you discount all of my favourite genres.

Still, it seems like things are getting better and I'm still trying to hold out hope that my system of choice may get more. I'm clearly not the only one who wants more of this. I can't help but think that disinterest in the PC isn't the only thing keeping Japanese games off of the PC. And that some architectural differences makes them a little less interested in making the gamble.

I feel like Steam, by the way, needs to reach out to Japan more. Japan deserves more Japanese language games at decent prices. In fact there's already several irritated Japanese Greenlight users over all of the doujin games there they can't play in Japanese because they've been localized. There's apparently also a Dynasty Warriors game I can't buy on there because I'm not Chinese. The Regioning system needs work and needs to be more international friendly. Japan also needs more digital distribution services. Ones that can fill the void that Steam is currently refusing to fill for them.

By the way, Westerners supporting the Wii U? Isn't that fairly common?
danhese007
Member
(02-24-2013, 08:43 AM)
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OpenGL Vs DX11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC3JGG6xHN8
Last edited by danhese007; 02-24-2013 at 08:46 AM.
HolyBaikal
Japanese Culture Expert
(02-24-2013, 09:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by danhese007

OpenGL Vs DX11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC3JGG6xHN8

According to that video uploader they're pretty much the same.

I don't really notice much difference, either. So either there isn't much difference in them at this point, or that video isn't very good at showing off the differences.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
(02-24-2013, 09:12 AM)
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i heard PS4 can do Tesseractation.

4th dimension

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