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Having children seems immoral to me...

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braves01

Banned
Regardless of population concerns, when you give birth you force (eventually) sentient beings into existence without giving them the chance to consent to existence. Even if they are born into a perfectly happy family with all the means to raise them, these kids will be forced to suffer the pain of being alive, either through depression or simply the pain and fear of death. The only way to opt-out of living after birth is through death, and even if death is through painless suicide or even unforeseen accident, there is always the fear of dying which is undeniably unpleasant.

Assuming that inflicting suffering on beings capable of feeling pain/fear/what-have-you is immoral, how can having children be moral, even if there is the possibility the net joy they experience is greater than the net pain? Isn't that risk something that should be consented to? Or does the preservation of humanity outweigh that facially immoral act?
 
The correct answer is to go in a time machine, ask the person who was already born if they'd rather have been born or not, and if they say "No I'd rather not be born" then go back in time to before they were conceived and tell the parents not to do it with a signed affidavit by the not yet existing person.

Problem. Solved.
 
Assuming that inflicting suffering on beings capable of feeling pain/fear/what-have-you is immoral, how can having children be moral, even if there is the possibility the net joy they experience is greater than the net pain? Isn't that risk something that should be consented to? Or does the preservation of humanity outweigh that facially immoral act?

Essentially, your argument is "Life is suffering." As a Buddhist, I'd be inclined to agree. Having children doesn't just introduce them to the disease, famine, stress, and death inherent to existence, but it ALSO complicates your life significantly.

If only those pesky, animalistic urges didn't flare up from time to time...
 

kswiston

Member
Your argument falls apart if one doesn't accept the assumption that not existing is better than feeling pain.
 

cdkee

Banned
By this logic we should all just commit mass suicide so no one ever has to bear the brunt of living again.
 

Marleyman

Banned
The correct answer is to go in a time machine, ask the person who was already born if they'd rather have been born or not, and if they say "No I'd rather not be born" then go back in time to before they were conceived and tell the parents not to do it with a signed affidavit by the not yet existing person.

Problem. Solved.

Great idea.
 

Dereck

Member
Regardless of population concerns, when you give birth you force (eventually) sentient beings into existence without giving them the chance to consent to existence. Even if they are born into a perfectly happy family with all the means to raise them, these kids will be forced to suffer the pain of being alive, either through depression or simply the pain and fear of death. The only way to opt-out of living after birth is through death, and even if death is through painless suicide or even unforeseen accident, there is always the fear of dying which is undeniably unpleasant.

Assuming that inflicting suffering on beings capable of feeling pain/fear/what-have-you is immoral, how can having children be moral, even if there is the possibility the net joy they experience is greater than the net pain? Isn't that risk something that should be consented to? Or does the preservation of humanity outweigh that facially immoral act?
So human existence is immoral according to this post.
 
If that's the case we might just argue whether humans are relevant at all. Would the world be a better place with or without?
 

jb1234

Member
What a negative outlook on life.

In his defense, it's very easy to have this outlook if you're depressed (not that I'm sure this is the case).

My life hasn't been easy and I've suffered a great deal... but in the end, I still prefer what I've experienced, the joys and the lows to not having existed at all.
 

braves01

Banned
And how are we supposed to ask this exactly? :p

Since it can't be done, I think the answer must be that people shouldn't have kids, unless there is some overriding concern that humanity must be preserved. However, when the human population is straining the earth's capacity as it is now, I think the only moral thing to do for would-be parents is to adopt.

Edit: I'd be fine at parties where contraception is used ;). I'm not advocating people kill themselves either. I'm just saying that when you give birth to people unable to consent to existence, that is the situation you force them into; I'd rather not have been born, but the only way to opt-out is through this painful process.
 

Finaika

Member
tekkazu-6.jpg
 
If that's the case we might just argue whether humans are relevant at all. Would the world be a better place with or without?

Widespread destruction of ecosystems for greed....vast wars and instruments designed explicitly to kill each other most effectively.....billions and billions into fueling hate-filled mercenaries and revolutions and death camps and all sorts of unnecessary bullshit.

Do you really think humans have contributed positively to the Earth's wellbeing?
 

Sushigod7

Member
So your saying you would rather not be here because something recently happened to you and your in pain. I get it but having a child is pretty awesome my daughter just turned one. Also I would say a small amount of parents aren't thinking about that when they have a child on accident. Humans love sex so the population is going to keep growing.
 

Loofy

Member
Are bacteria immoral for multiplying?
'bacteria dont have feelings'
But eventually they could evolve feelings.
 

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
Widespread destruction of ecosystems for greed....vast wars and instruments designed explicitly to kill each other most effectively.....billions and billions into fueling hate-filled mercenaries and revolutions and death camps and all sorts of unnecessary bullshit.

Do you really think humans have contributed positively to the Earth's wellbeing?

The earth is a rock floating in space. There is nothing that concerns it positively or negatively, nor is it meaningful to talk about its well being.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Look, eventually you just need to draw a line. You can't base your entire life around the idea that you may cause someone harm by doing things you want to do. Like procreate.

And at this point the argument is so tenuous and ambiguous I could make an equally (if not more) compelling argument that it would be immoral NOT to have children.

Uhm... By choosing not to have children, you may be preventing the birth of a human being who would in turn increase the quality of life of millions of people, maybe billions. Or maybe this human being would solve half the worlds problems. So it's your imperative to have kids, just in case.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Use this moment in your life to get a vasectomy now. Don't fall in love with a woman down the road that claims she doesn't want kids then does a 180 after you get married.


The immoral thing is having children that you never really wanted deep down.
 
Widespread destruction of ecosystems for greed....vast wars and instruments designed explicitly to kill each other most effectively.....billions and billions into fueling hate-filled mercenaries and revolutions and death camps and all sorts of unnecessary bullshit.

Do you really think humans have contributed positively to the Earth's wellbeing?

The Earth doesn't care that we're here and certainly won't care when we're gone. It's a floating sphere of rock. It doesn't have a well being.
 

akira28

Member
It's the test, dude. None of use are here against our will, we just don't remember signing the release form.
 
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