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Think we'll see a PS4 Emulator for PC?

C

cpp_is_king

Member
I got to thinking, the biggest reason that it requires massively powerful hardware to emulate old comsoles is because of the difference in CPU architectures making it very difficult to accurately get instruction timings correct.

With PS4 confirmed to be using an x86 architecture, it's "basically a PC". Assuming hackers can crack the discs' encryption, what other roadblocks might stand in the way of ps4 emulation on current gen PCs?
 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
Not for at least 10-15 years if ever.

Xbox being just a pc in a box and there's still no functioning emulator.
 
C

cpp_is_king

Member
Xbox was based on PowerPC, no? that still requires emulation. if ps4 is x86 based, literally no emulation required, it can run natively
 
A

ascii42

Member
cpp_is_king said:
Xbox was based on PowerPC, no? that still requires emulation. if ps4 is x86 based, literally no emulation required, it can run natively
Click to expand...

Well, you'll still need at least as many cores as the PS4 has, and any customization could cause some sticking points. The RAM is also an issue, you'll need at least that much RAM at that bandwidth, accessible by both the CPU and GPU (or be able to emulate that).
 
O

onQ123

Member
Quasar said:
I'm more wondering how long before it gets jail broken and Linux put on it.
Click to expand...

PlayStation 4 OS is already based on BSD.

tuxdie.png
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Come back in 15 years. X86 architecture doesn't make it inherently easier to emulate, and modern consoles are going to be really difficult for amateurs to emulate.
 
S

Swifty

Member
FYI, emulation has appeared to almost hit a brick wall when in comes to shaders. Nvidia and ATI/AMD just don't document all the registers and instrution sets in their GPUs and even 12 years after the release of the Xbox, emulation has been really difficult for that console.

So no, just because something is on x86 doesn't mean it's easy to emulate. In a post fixed function graphics world, emulation is just really elusive and it pains me to say that.
 
P

Platy

Member
I doubt there will be any more non portable videogames like the Wii that will be emulated on their lifetime.

I would love to see myself proved wrong since they can work as some kind of cheap option for devkits...
 
X

x3sphere

Member
Even if it is feasible from a technical standpoint, the firmware will need to be hacked first before any progress can be made. Everything runs on top of Sony's API even though it is x86, so any firmware modules will need to be reversed engineered.

Considering PS3 took 3-4 years to hack I wouldn't get your hopes up.
 
Z

z0m3le

Banned
Very few people are actually answering the OP, he is asking what roadblocks beyond disc encryption would exist.

Mainly memory bandwidth, I'm not sure Xbox is a fair comparison since very little interest was ever given to emulating it.

I've never built an emulator, but from my more basic understanding, 360 emulation would probably still be harder. Being 1.6GHz on PS4's 8 cores should make CPU emulating very easy with our current knowledge of PS4's specs. 8 cores is possible today for very cheap on PC, and you could probably even do it with a quad core i7 that has multithreading.

Being able to brute force the CPU should help, the GPU well we don't know enough about it to say that it would be particularly hard, what we do understand of it would make it easy, still until DDR4 comes along with similar bandwidth, I don't think you will see a functional PS4 emulator, however I don't see a reason it would take 10 years.
 
D

Dmented

Banned
Wouldn't it be easier and better performing to reverse engineer code and have games run natively on PC? An emulator is just additional resources being used. Not saying it's possible, but that it would be a better route.
 
Z

z0m3le

Banned
Persona7 said:
Why is this such a common misconception?


The hardware has very little documentation and a few quirks that make it difficult .
Click to expand...

yep, this. After the hardware is figured out correctly enough, an emulator could happen... minimum 4 years till we see a working one, with enough people on it though, 10 seems extreme. Though there could be other parts to the hardware that isn't available for PCs this would make it more difficult. Again either way, you'll need to reach that bandwidth which won't happen until DDR4 catches up to that speed.
 
1

1st Course

Member
Metalic said:
I still don't understand why we haven't seen Xbox 1 emulation yet, I mean Microsoft did it on the 360 so it is doable.
Click to expand...

The GPU was very poorly documented or something like that, even the original Xbox emulation on the 360 is very poor from what I hear too.
 
ss_lemonade

ss_lemonade

Member
Dmented said:
Wouldn't it be easier and better performing to reverse engineer code and have games run natively on PC? An emulator is just additional resources being used. Not saying it's possible, but that it would be a better route.
Click to expand...
There used to be a project or something that involved converting xbox XBEs to EXE files but the developers behind it still needed to emulate xbox specific functions being used by the games so I guess that's a problem
 
P

Platy

Member
Metalic said:
Isn't that the case for every console ?
Click to expand...

Wich is why Virtual Console has some of the best emulated examples of lots of games ... even for games that have pc emulators for YEARS

edit :
Grinchy said:
I wonder if the PS4 is powerful enough to emulate a PC running a PS4 emulator.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of the "WiiU emulating Wii emulating Cube emulating N64" homebrew post
 
G

GaussTek

Member
Dmented said:
Wouldn't it be easier and better performing to reverse engineer code and have games run natively on PC? An emulator is just additional resources being used. Not saying it's possible, but that it would be a better route.
Click to expand...

Yep. Actually, I think there could be a chance for this to happen with the 'XBOX 720', assuming of course that it runs a version of Windows.

For example, the "Taito Type X" arcade games got cracked so people can actually run them on a normal PC using a loader. According to Wikipedia, these arcade boards run a version of Windows XP Embedded SP2.

Of course that beating the game's encryption won't be easy at all.
 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
We still don't have 100% correct emulation of SNES last time I checked. And to run the current emulator took a pretty monster machine.
 
O

Orayn

Member
Platy said:
Wich is why Virtual Console has some of the best emulated examples of lots of games ... even for games that have pc emulators for YEARS
Click to expand...

Well, VC is a bit of a unique case. Nintendo starts with a stock emulator which isn't all that different than the kind most PC emulation enthusiasts use, but they make game-specific fixes to ensure parity. It's a fundamentally different approach from that of a general purpose emulator that behaves exactly like the console for all games, since they don't have to worry about all games.

Platy said:
Reminds me of the "WiiU emulating Wii emulating Cube emulating N64" homebrew post
Click to expand...

Haha, that was my post. I said that if you ran Animal Crossing for Gamecube on a Wii U in its Wii mode, you could potentially play NES games in a Gamecube port of an N64 games on a Wii U acting like a Wii acting like a Gamecube.
 
S

Sapphire Dreams

Member
Swifty said:
Does no one read? I wrote a tidbit about how difficult it has been to emulate even just the Xbox.

If you want a more in-depth look at what's taking so long, read this: http://www.ngemu.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132032
Click to expand...

MarzipaNMOS said:
yeah but simpler architectures = simpler to reverse engineer
Click to expand...

Platy said:
Wich is why Virtual Console has some of the best emulated examples of lots of games ... even for games that have pc emulators for YEARS

edit :


Reminds me of the "WiiU emulating Wii emulating Cube emulating N64" homebrew post
Click to expand...

Okay now I got the full picture, thanks guys ;)
 
O

Orayn

Member
falastini said:
Interesting... I always thought it was lack of interest. I mean most of the original Xbox games were PC ports anyways.
Click to expand...

That is another part of it. The motivation is low on top of the technical difficulties, simply because there are precious few Xbox exclusives that aren't available (or superior) on another platform, usually PC.
 
X

x3sphere

Member
z0m3le said:
yep, this. After the hardware is figured out correctly enough, an emulator could happen... minimum 4 years till we see a working one, with enough people on it though, 10 seems extreme. Though there could be other parts to the hardware that isn't available for PCs this would make it more difficult. Again either way, you'll need to reach that bandwidth which won't happen until DDR4 catches up to that speed.
Click to expand...

Uh, if the hardware is figured out that still doesn't make an emulator possible. Everything runs on Sony's API, programmers don't build against the same OpenGL and DX libraries they do on PC.

No firmware hack = no emulator. And it took 3-4 years for hackers to dump the PS3 firmware. Given the same timeframe you'd be looking at 4 years just to get things started. Doubt anyone will bother to be honest. We'll see a PS3 emulator before we see a PS4 one.
 
P

Platy

Member
Orayn said:
Haha, that was my post. I said that if you ran Animal Crossing for Gamecube on a Wii U in its Wii mode, you could potentially play NES games in a Gamecube port of an N64 games on a Wii U acting like a Wii acting like a Gamecube.
Click to expand...

Beautiful

Only missing is the Snes

Platy said:
I doubt there will be any more non portable videogames like the Wii that will be emulated on their lifetime.

I would love to see myself proved wrong since they can work as some kind of cheap option for devkits...
Click to expand...

Actualy ... nevermind ... the Ouyia and the Steambox will probably be pretty easily emulated since they are basicaly linux and android

...is there like a reverse WINE ?
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Platy said:
Actualy ... nevermind ... the Ouyia and the Steambox will probably be pretty easily emulated since they are basicaly linux and android

...is there like a reverse WINE ?
Click to expand...

Will they even have the exclusive software that would make anyone put the effort in to write an emulator?
 
M

Mashing

Member
z0m3le said:
Very few people are actually answering the OP, he is asking what roadblocks beyond disc encryption would exist.

Mainly memory bandwidth, I'm not sure Xbox is a fair comparison since very little interest was ever given to emulating it.

I've never built an emulator, but from my more basic understanding, 360 emulation would probably still be harder. Being 1.6GHz on PS4's 8 cores should make CPU emulating very easy with our current knowledge of PS4's specs. 8 cores is possible today for very cheap on PC, and you could probably even do it with a quad core i7 that has multithreading.

Being able to brute force the CPU should help, the GPU well we don't know enough about it to say that it would be particularly hard, what we do understand of it would make it easy, still until DDR4 comes along with similar bandwidth, I don't think you will see a functional PS4 emulator, however I don't see a reason it would take 10 years.
Click to expand...

So there's demand for Gamecube/Wii/PS2 emulators but not Xbox? I doubt demand has anything to do with it (it is curious how Nintendo consoles are easier to emulate though).
 
G

Grief.exe

Member
Phire Phox said:
Wait, so ZSNES isn't perfect emulation?
Click to expand...

I read a great article a little while ago on why its not quite perfect.

We are talking down to 100% correct emulation, right now it is at 95% or so but getting that extra bit requires a lot of horsepower and coding.
 
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