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Cincaid · Mar 10, 2014

A user on Giant Bomb took these 4 screenshots while playing on X360. Especially the first and second one shows off lighting effects. And in the user's own words:

The game looks even way better than the screenshots i toke because of the quality of the photos , lightning looks better in game than it shows in these photos i toke , then again i say , the demo did have better lightning , but still ..

Screenshot 1 (fireplace)
Screenshot 2 (dark descent)
Screenshot 3 (bridge over water)
Screenshot 4 (village overlook)

ufo8mycat · Mar 10, 2014

This doesn't effect me that much. I am not that sensitive to graphic fidelity.

Judging by how it looks though, it definitely looks like a time/budget issue.

There are quite a few games on PS3/360 that look better then the DEMO shots, so it's not 'PS3/360 doesn't have the power' issue.

Only reason left is time/budget.

Cannot wait for this game to come out!!

ufo8mycat · Mar 10, 2014

Cincaid said:
A user on Giant Bomb took these 4 screenshots while playing on X360. Especially the first and second one shows off lighting effects. And in the user's own words:

Screenshot 1 (fireplace)
Screenshot 2 (dark descent)
Screenshot 3 (bridge over water)
Screenshot 4 (village overlook)

Am I the only one who prefers the art style on those pictures compared to the DEMO shots? The DEMO shots may be better on a technical leave, but at least IMO, those shots are more aesthetically pleasing.

Curious_George · Mar 10, 2014

Shinjica said:
They say 30fps and they didnt achieve that.

PC version later is clearly a marketing decision, not for polishing.

I don't believe it was entirely a marketing decision. Why release that much later if they're not going to do anything with that time? If it were like two weeks I could understand it as purely marketing, but we're talking a month and half (even more between console gold and PC release). If they don't do any polishing and drop another bad PC port they absolutely deserve all the hate they would get from the PC community.

Papercuts · Mar 10, 2014

Holy shit man. If you watch more of that video and see the other areas where NEITHER person has a torch the difference is still massive.

and

doofy102 · Mar 10, 2014

Cincaid said:
A user on Giant Bomb took these 4 screenshots while playing on X360. Especially the first and second one shows off lighting effects. And in the user's own words:

Screenshot 1 (fireplace)
Screenshot 2 (dark descent)
Screenshot 3 (bridge over water)
Screenshot 4 (village overlook)

Huh. What's going on with screen 2 (dark descent)? Can the user confirm whether or not that room is pitch black for him? (this could imply the footage we saw earlier simply had brightness turned up too much in the settings)

JoeFenix · Mar 10, 2014

Cincaid said:
A user on Giant Bomb took these 4 screenshots while playing on X360. Especially the first and second one shows off lighting effects. And in the user's own words:

Screenshot 1 (fireplace)
Screenshot 2 (dark descent)
Screenshot 3 (bridge over water)
Screenshot 4 (village overlook)

It can still look pretty good at times but that comparison picture (dark descent) doesn't fully convey the fact that you don't need a torch anymore. The darkness is just completely gone. During actual gameplay the difference is incredibly dramatic AND it has significant gameplay ramifications.

Some areas definitely look very nice even with the lighting downgrade, mostly outdoor areas.

mickcenary · Mar 10, 2014

Cincaid said:
A user on Giant Bomb took these 4 screenshots while playing on X360. Especially the first and second one shows off lighting effects. And in the user's own words:

Screenshot 1 (fireplace)
Screenshot 2 (dark descent)
Screenshot 3 (bridge over water)
Screenshot 4 (village overlook)

Okay. They look superb. Crisis largely averted for mine.

XANDER CAGE · Mar 10, 2014

Cincaid said:
A user on Giant Bomb took these 4 screenshots while playing on X360. Especially the first and second one shows off lighting effects. And in the user's own words:

Screenshot 1 (fireplace)
Screenshot 2 (dark descent)
Screenshot 3 (bridge over water)
Screenshot 4 (village overlook)

These screenshots are all taken in situations that me and other people have noted as still having dynamic lights (bonfires, torches, direct sunlight).

These really aren't indicative of what people have been complaining about.

Shinta · Mar 10, 2014

Papercuts said:
Holy shit man. If you watch more of that video and see the other areas where NEITHER person has a torch the difference is still massive.

I'm starting to think this isn't going to be such a huge deal.

Does the game have a brightness calibration in game in the options or when you start?

XANDER CAGE · Mar 10, 2014

Shinta said:
I'm starting to think this isn't going to be such a huge deal.

Does the game have a brightness calibration in game in the options or when you start?

Yeah, but as far as I can tell I set it up correctly and still don't need torches.

Wolfe · Mar 10, 2014

UnrealEck said:
Don't be absurd.

It's a tough job, but someones gotta do it.

In all honestly at this point I think I'm just really curious to see for myself how it comes out once I rent it. If it bugs me too much I'll just hold off for a while. I still need to finish Demons Souls anyway.

Garcia · Mar 10, 2014

doofy102 said:
Huh. What's going on with screen 2 (dark descent)? Can the user confirm whether or not that room is pitch black for him? (this could imply the footage we saw earlier simply had brightness turned up too much in the settings)

Strangely, the torches still light up a fixed area around the character in the console release, dynamic shadows and all, but the framerate suffers from this. Using the torches is completely unnecessary though and the video comparison show exactly why.

doofy102 · Mar 10, 2014

Papercuts said:
Holy shit man. If you watch more of that video and see the other areas where NEITHER person has a torch the difference is still massive.

and

If anything it confirms that the downgrade covers MUCH more than the lighting (which hurts enough as it does.)The pillars in the first set, the wall texture in the second set, the floor tiles... this is huge.

Shinta · Mar 10, 2014

XANDER CAGE said:
Yeah, but as far as I can tell I set it up correctly and still don't need torches.

Have you tried setting it to a darker setting than last time?

Maybe the "normal" is just brighter than it should be. Hopefully that can help at least. Worth a try.

Persona7 · Mar 10, 2014

ufo8mycat said:
This doesn't effect me that much. I am not that sensitive to graphic fidelity.

Judging by how it looks though, it definitely looks like a time/budget issue.

There are quite a few games on PS3/360 that look better then the DEMO shots, so it's not 'PS3/360 doesn't have the power' issue.

Only reason left is time/budget.

Cannot wait for this game to come out!!

You have to account for a multitude of different variables depending on the game. It is not that simple.

doofy102 · Mar 10, 2014

Garcia said:
Strangely, the torches still light up a fixed area around the character in the console release, dynamic shadows and all, but the framerate suffers from this. Using the torches is completely unnecessary though and the video comparison show exactly why.

Do you mean to say that using the torch actually made the area outside the torch's radius look darker? (Reminds me of Silent Hill 1)

Garcia · Mar 10, 2014

doofy102 said:
Do you mean to say that using the torch actually makes the areas around the torch radius look darker than they do without the torch being active?

From the videos I've seen there's not an impact on the distant surroundings. It seems like torches just switch back and forth between a lifeless grey aura to a dynamic orange one. People playing the game could offer you a much more detailed reply.

It is confusing as to why they left those effects in there when torches are just not necessary anymore.

Visceir · Mar 10, 2014

I suppose the changes could have also have been made for gameplay reasons. Had they left the lighting as it was before then some rooms would be completely pitch black and torches would be mandatory. Now in the game you can roam all the areas without a torch though.

Example of same area:
Before, pitch black

Current game, everything easily visible with no torch

In that sense the PC version will probably be the same as the changes have been made for gameplay reasons.

Shinjica · Mar 10, 2014

Visceir said:
I suppose the changes could have also have been made for gameplay reasons. Had they left the lighting as it was before then some rooms would be completely pitch black and torches would be mandatory. Now in the game you can roam all the areas without a torch though.

Example of same area:
Before, pitch black

Current game, everything easily visible with no torch

In that sense the PC version will probably be the same as the changes have been made for gameplay reasons.

So, why implementing the torch if now are pretty useless?

TheNamelessOne · Mar 10, 2014

Seems Durante has some work to do on the PC version as well.

I kid, I kid

doofy102 · Mar 10, 2014

Shinjica said:
So, why implementing the torch if now are pretty useless?

This is a good thing, if only to improve the visuals lol

Visceir · Mar 10, 2014

Shinjica said:
So, why implementing the torch if now are pretty useless?

Maybe they originally intended for torches to play a bigger role but then during play testing the people found it too hard/not fun to have to use them (loss of shield, lack of visibility) and they decided to change it. But since the torch tech was already developed they left it in the game. The game could have ended up being too dark in general if they had left it like that. I know for sure I wouldn't enjoy roaming around pitch black rooms for too long.

There are parts in the game where you need to use the torch on objects but since you never really use a torch to begin with it might be really hard to figure that out now.

doofy102 · Mar 10, 2014

Visceir said:
I suppose the changes could have also have been made for gameplay reasons. Had they left the lighting as it was before then some rooms would be completely pitch black and torches would be mandatory. Now in the game you can roam all the areas without a torch though.

Example of same area:
Before, pitch black

Current game, everything easily visible with no torch

In that sense the PC version will probably be the same as the changes have been made for gameplay reasons.

Even the doorway leading to the "pitch black" staircase is missing MASSIVE amounts of detail. Forget lighting for a second - it looks like the very wall textures and door frames got stripped off.

Shinjica · Mar 10, 2014

Visceir said:
Maybe they originally intended for torches to play a bigger role but then during play testing the people found it too hard/not fun to have to use them (loss of shield, lack of visibility) and they decided to change it. But since the torch tech was already developed they left it in the game. The game could have ended up being too dark in general if they had left it like that. I know for sure I wouldn't enjoy roaming around pitch black rooms for too long.

There are parts in the game where you need to use the torch on objects but since you never really use a torch to begin with it might be really hard to figure that out now.

Torch was shown from the start and developer put emphasys in using them from adventuring in the dark.

Do you underatand if I'm a bit skeptical when they remove without say anything

Visceir · Mar 10, 2014

Shinjica said:
Torch was shown from the start and developer put emphasys in using them from adventuring in the dark.

Do you underatand if I'm a bit skeptical when they remove without say anything

Games go through gameplay/mechanics changes all the time. The developers need to make the decisions on what's fun and what might hinder the enjoyment.

Some things that might sound great in concept might not carry over so well into actual gameplay. The darkness would have also made lots of detail go lost.

ViviOggi · Mar 10, 2014

Holy shit, that's absolutely massive. I'm keeping my PS3 preorder up for now since the Black Armour Edition is sold out here in Germany and come release I'll decide what to do with it. Thing is, with how technically incompetent From is I'm not sure if my rig can handle the PC port in case the lighting makes a return there.

Cincaid · Mar 10, 2014

Some more X360 screenshots from the Giant Bomb user, since their quality was so good. I asked him about using the torch, and he said this:

using a torch in some areas do make it more visible , but i find that the light aura the character makes is quite enough , at least for me .

Screenshot 1 (cave with torch)
Screenshot 2 (looking out a window)
Screenshot 3 (collection of books)
Screenshot 4 (middle of village)
Screenshot 5 (spooky tree)
Screenshot 6 (catacombs)

Chariot · Mar 10, 2014

I thought nobody liked that Lighing returned

Shinjica · Mar 10, 2014

Visceir said:
Games go through gameplay/mechanics changes all the time. The developers need to make the decisions on what's fun and what might hinder the enjoyment.

Some things that might sound great in concept might not carry over so well into actual gameplay. The darkness would have also made lots of detail go lost.

You're right, concept can be hard/not funny in practical so they need to change that.

My only worry is, if they remove near the end of the development, they didnt have much time to change level design and they'll be crappy

Cannon Goose · Mar 10, 2014

Cincaid said:
Some more X360 screenshots from the Giant Bomb user, since their quality was so good. I asked him about using the torch, and he said this:

Screenshot 1 (cave with torch)
Screenshot 2 (looking out a window)
Screenshot 3 (collection of books)
Screenshot 4 (middle of village)
Screenshot 5 (spooky tree)
Screenshot 6 (catacombs)

I think the game looks pretty great in certain places, just like the first Dark Souls.

It is horrendous how bad FROM is at taking screenshots of their own games... I had a theory that the moment someone got the game they could just snap a shot and it would turn out better than any of the official shots. Looks like I was right!

Meia · Mar 10, 2014

Visceir said:
Maybe they originally intended for torches to play a bigger role but then during play testing the people found it too hard/not fun to have to use them (loss of shield, lack of visibility) and they decided to change it. But since the torch tech was already developed they left it in the game. The game could have ended up being too dark in general if they had left it like that. I know for sure I wouldn't enjoy roaming around pitch black rooms for too long.

There are parts in the game where you need to use the torch on objects but since you never really use a torch to begin with it might be really hard to figure that out now.

Yeah, um, honestly, if most of the game required the use of a torch to see, I probably wouldn't be thrilled about it. Tomb of the Giants was fine in DS1, as you NEEDED a lightsource for it, and by then you usually had some options to do so, so then you still needed to sac a spell slot/head slot/hand slot. To have that the ENTIRE GAME, yeah, um, good decision to remove it.

That being said, have we seen every area in this game yet? Who's to say that there won't be another "dark area" gimmick?

Then again, I largely don't follow vids/trailers of games I have an interest in, nor what developers/journalists have to say about it, so that makes it not as big a deal for me I guess?

Cloudius12 · Mar 10, 2014

at this point, I need to see a direct capture/feed of the Mirror Knight/Looking Glass Knight boss fight for the retail build.

vocab · Mar 10, 2014

Even with the downgrade, I will bet it will still have frame rate issues.

Shinjica · Mar 10, 2014

vocab said:
Even with the downgrade, I will bet it will still have frame rate issues.

Already confirmed. Still 360 has a better framerate than PS3 but tearing.

Jack cw · Mar 10, 2014

vocab said:
Even with the downgrade, I will bet it will still have frame rate issues.

Of course it will, and it will be sub HD I guess...
Its still a bummer that From didnt put any effort into a current gen version.

JimPanzer · Mar 10, 2014

vocab said:
Even with the downgrade, I will bet it will still have frame rate issues.

someone already said here that it hovers around low-mid 20s in open areas.

I hope we get a video of the current pc-version build soon

RVinP · Mar 10, 2014

Cincaid said:
Some more X360 screenshots from the Giant Bomb user, since their quality was so good. I asked him about using the torch, and he said this:

Screenshot 1 (cave with torch)
Screenshot 2 (looking out a window)
Screenshot 3 (collection of books)
Screenshot 4 (middle of village)
Screenshot 5 (spooky tree)
Screenshot 6 (catacombs)

Those screens are good, I assume they'd look even better when the game is running in motion at fullscreen (above 30FPS).

Also the screenshot with the torch, shows a much better comparison than the ones shown without the torch (for comparison against the ambiance on the older & technically better looking game play videos).

I'd play the game right off the bat, even if the visuals look like this on the PC.
(never leaned heavy on visual techniques/tricks for this game, just want it for the subtle rotten/bleak/gothic ambiance and gameplay)

-----
Much better comparison

Note: 3rd screen grab from the mentioned 'X360 screenshots from the Giant Bomb user'

S0N0S · Mar 10, 2014

I find that comparing release PS3/360 to that IGN video or the stills (look for IGN watermark, bottom right) from it to be misleading, such as this post. That was the gameplay premiere demo and they said it was the PC version. Not only that, but the footage is nearly a year old, so we should expect some other, stylistic changes.

Gameplay premiere, source video for many of these screen shots:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JFDPCtXFY
Notice when he's climbing down the later at the beginning, you can see some minor frame blending, likely due to 60+ framerates, which means PC version.

If you want to compare retail release with something, this video http://youtu.be/A3MdOBH-jDc contains recent, pre-release PS3 footage.

I do think there is some amount of "downgrading", but I suspect much of it is exaggeration by the aforementioned misleading comparisons and some is not-so-objective stylistic alterations (light tone and intensity) /reasonedvoiceofdissention

Soriku · Mar 10, 2014

Jack cw said:
Of course it will, and it will be sub HD I guess...
Its still a bummer that From didnt put any effort into a current gen version.

Both versions are 720p.

B-Genius · Mar 10, 2014

pa22word said:
Eh, not really, because 2k did a really good job of burying memory of what the game was shown to actually play like vs what they chopped together in a year when they semi-restarted development when Ferguson came in.

Here's the e3 2012 trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEBwKO4RFOU

As you can see, the game changed drastically from the semi-open, reactivity fueled Bio1-y levels featured in that build to the linear corridor shooter with the occasional arena sprinkled in we got in the final version.

That was interesting, thanks for sharing. I'm talking mainly visuals here, but it doesn't look like much of a downgrade. It seems like you were definitely shown something different from this demo compared to the game we have, though.

Papercuts said:
Not to mention how much more natural and involved Elizabeth seemed here. After finishing Infinite I rewatched this video and was sad we didn't get that game...that is not the reaction someone should have.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of how "clingy" she seems in this demo, and I wouldn't call her involvement natural. The conversations between her and Booker sound really forced compared to the occasional exchanges they make in the actual game. The animations may also play a big part in this, but I find Infinite's animation to be quite jarring compared to the overall fluidity and vibrance of the visual style.

But I digress... Hopefully either the developer or publisher will explain any changes in regard to DS2, and hopefully the changes themselves don't impact the overall experience too much.

Lucent · Mar 10, 2014

Visceir said:
I suppose the changes could have also have been made for gameplay reasons. Had they left the lighting as it was before then some rooms would be completely pitch black and torches would be mandatory. Now in the game you can roam all the areas without a torch though.

Example of same area:
Before, pitch black

Current game, everything easily visible with no torch

In that sense the PC version will probably be the same as the changes have been made for gameplay reasons.

Man that's crazy. Kinda hurts to look back at the older builds. =l

doofy102 · Mar 10, 2014

By this point it is clear that there is much more missing than just the lighting.

In just this one small area, we are missing
- Pillars (see image)

- Wall texture detail (stains, texture "3D effect", etc)
- Cobwebs, tiles, the texture on the friggen pillars (most visible on the ones on the left) everything

I give up listing - there's just too much. Watch the two footages closely. Literally everything in this level has downgraded. These are all smallish changes but they are entirely widespread - there must be an entirely different looking game sitting in the FROM archives.

Arkanius · Mar 10, 2014

Metroid-Squadron said:
Here's the reveal demo showing why you need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JFDPCtXFY&t=2m58s

Here's the same section in the final game showing that you don't need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnErlYgKo8&t=2m55s

Holy shit, DOWNGRADEATON

Dwight Schrute · Mar 10, 2014

Does the lightening downgrade and all the "engine made with newt gen in mind" and PC mother version indicates the game was at some point a nextgen title ? Even in the original reveal, I remember EDGE saying it looked like a next gen title.

Is it possible it was help back on console because Namco tough it would be too risky to go next gen only ? It feels like there are a lot of clues.

RVinP · Mar 10, 2014

doofy102 said:

These two doesn't seem to be the same location, the rooms seem different (together with the pillars).

doofy102 said:
- Wall texture detail (stains, texture "3D effect", etc)
- Cobwebs, tiles, the texture on the friggen pillars, everything

Same with these too, are these two even the same location?. There appears to be a grate or a cage in-front of the blue orb/item/soul at the further end. Because there is a moss decal on the foot of the pillar, to the right in the new screen.

Note: some of the objects in the old image has visual glitch (illuminated objects, what looks like pieces of a jar or something).

robin2 · Mar 10, 2014

The downgrade looks brutal.

I remember that doubts were raised even earlier than now; the lighting system looked downgraded / changed even from the screenshots released in the past months; but people theorized that it seemed that way because they were still images, while previously the "full illumination" was shown in videos.

doofy102 · Mar 10, 2014

RVinP said:
These two doesn't seem to be the same location, the rooms seem different (together with the pillars).

Same with these too, are these two even the same location?. There appears to be a grate or a cage in-front of the blue orb/item/soul at the further end. Because there is a moss decal on the foot of the pillar, to the right in the new screen.

Note: some of the objects in the old image has visual glitch (illuminated objects, what looks like pieces of a jar or something).

You'll have to take that up with the guy who posted these images originally. I've just re-used them, assuming he took them both from the same locations as he watched the reveal demo and playthrough video side-by-side. It seems like something which would be easy to do correctly so I trust him.

edit: the first 2 images seem to be from opposite sides of the room, but from the reveal demo the pillars shouldn't be different.

ufo8mycat · Mar 10, 2014

RVinP said:
Those screens are good, I assume they'd look even better when the game is running in motion at fullscreen (above 30FPS).

Also the screenshot with the torch, shows a much better comparison than the ones shown without the torch (for comparison against the ambiance on the older & technically better looking game play videos).

I'd play the game right off the bat, even if the visuals look like this on the PC.
(never leaned heavy on visual techniques/tricks for this game, just want it for the subtle rotten/bleak/gothic ambiance and gameplay)

-----
Much better comparison

Note: 3rd screen grab from the mentioned 'X360 screenshots from the Giant Bomb user'

The 3rd screenshot is the most aesthetically pleasing IMO. 2nd screen is obviously awful but the 1st IMO its like the contrast is set to high, don't like it.

jacksepticeye · Mar 10, 2014

Grief.exe said:
Just for case in point of what I am talking about, the differences between the demo and the final console build are pretty massive.

Textures look higher resolution, Specular Highlights, increased Dynamic Shadows, pitch-black background, Normal Mapping, and looks like a DOF effect.

Ok that's a disgusting level of degredation. Seriously that looks completely different. If the PC version doesn't have that stuff then people will be pissed,including me

That's really fucking bad

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