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The Technomancer · Aug 29, 2014

The Blue Jihad said:
If you submit a "scholarly" piece of criticism that brushes along the top surface without digging in deeper and exploring the details and themes of the works you're analyzing, you're going to be rightfully laughed out. Academia doesn't want breadth; it wants depth. It's why authors devote entire books to close readings of single plays. It's why high-level literary courses often avoid focusing on more than six or seven works across an entire semester. It's why dissertations take years to write. Depth is the name of the game if you're talking about academic rigor.

Otherwise, you're just flirting with attempts and "almost there."

It's easy to write 15-20 pages on BioShock 1. Anita barely spent 15 seconds on it. That's not even close to attempting academic rigor.

You can absolutely spend 20 minutes breaking down Watch_Dogs, ALONE. She spent what, 20 seconds?

These are not academic critiques and you'd barely end up with a few full pages if you stitched the transcript together. Those claiming she's pursuing academic critique have clearly never gone through and learned what academic critique truly is or what it involves.

They're not trying to be in depth analyses. That's not the goal. Again, I've tried digging into individual games before, and all you get back is "well its just this one game! go play something else if you don't like it!". If the point you're trying to make is that there is a pervasive use of certain tropes in the industry, focusing on one example doesn't work. Her going broad and juxtaposing all of these many games against each other to show how pervasive the tropes are is exactly the right approach for what she is trying to demonstrate

Sneds · Aug 29, 2014

Brakke said:
Super sophisticated analysis. Why are the demographics that way in the first place? Why is that kind of pandering effective? Are there negative effects to this kind of pandering? Are those effects intense enough to outweigh their joys?

We don't get anywhere as people we don't ask "why" more than once.

Exactly.

And, as a man, I find the argument 'of course video games are sexist, they are made by men and for men' really insulting. I don't want misogynistic tropes in my video games and if I made video games I would do my upmost to avoid including them in my own work.

Htown · Aug 29, 2014

The Blue Jihad said:
If you submit a "scholarly" piece of criticism that brushes along the top surface without digging in deeper and exploring the details and themes of the works you're analyzing, you're going to be rightfully laughed out. Academia doesn't want breadth; it wants depth. It's why authors devote entire books to close readings of single plays. It's why high-level literary courses often avoid focusing on more than six or seven works across an entire semester. It's why dissertations take years to write. Depth is the name of the game if you're talking about academic rigor.

Otherwise, you're just flirting with attempts and "almost there."

It's easy to write 15-20 pages on BioShock 1. Anita barely spent 15 seconds on it. That's not even close to attempting academic rigor.

You can absolutely spend 20 minutes breaking down Watch_Dogs, ALONE. She spent what, 20 seconds?

These are not academic critiques and you'd barely end up with a few full pages if you stitched the transcript together. Those claiming she's pursuing academic critique have clearly never gone through and learned what academic critique truly is or what it involves.

Also...

Pretty much.

She's making youtube videos, not submitting a paper to peer review

Foggy · Aug 29, 2014

Anton Sugar said:
This feels like semantics. You really want her to spent 20 minutes on one game when she's trying to point out an industry wide problem?

She touches on a number of games that exemplify a concept that she details and explains in full. Focusing on 1-2 games wouldn't help.

I don't know about semantics. I would absolutely prefer a more in-depth analysis since a parade of tropes is about the least interesting way to criticize art that I can imagine. I'm not going to say it's a ridiculous way to spend your time and energy, but personally, it does nothing for the art form. I don't think you need a series of 20+ minute videos to establish the prevalence of tropes(if you don't get it after 5 minutes, you're not gonna get it). Dedicate time to examining a game or a sequence, be honest about it(no mission logic exploitation), and reference other games that are endemic of the same issues that you picked apart. It has the same cutting depth as the Bechdel Test. Tropes and the Bechdel Test are there to illuminate an issue at large, but too often people use them as shorthand for judging a piece of art.

The Technomancer · Aug 29, 2014

Foggy said:
I don't know about semantics. I would absolutely prefer a more in-depth analysis since a parade of tropes is about the least interesting way to criticize art that I can imagine. I'm not going to say it's a ridiculous way to spend your time and energy, but personally, it does nothing for the art form. I don't think you need a series of 20+ minute series of videos to establish the prevalence of tropes(if you don't get it after 5 minutes, you're not gonna get it). Dedicate time to examining a game or a sequence, be honest about it(no mission logic exploitation), and reference other games that are endemic of the same issues that you picked apart. It has the same cutting depth as the Bechdel Test. Tropes and the Bechdel Test are there to illuminate an issue at large, but too often people use them as shorthand for judging a piece of art.

All I can say is that I disagree, at least that there's no value in what she's doing. I'd love more in depth analysis as well, absolutely, and I think we'll get some in the near future, if not from her than from someone. But people have been trying to get this stuff across for a few years now (at least) and if some of the reception is anything to go by maybe all we really needed was a twenty minute video going "no look, seriously look at all of these games, look at this one and this one and this one, look at this huge list of examples, do you see how pervasive this is now?"

WarpathDC · Aug 29, 2014

Those death threats are way over the top. Wow.

Brakke · Aug 29, 2014

"Academic analysis isn't ever broad" is a goof ball thing to say. Y'all continue to think this is a literature text, but isn't it obviously a media studies text? The series in full is probably somewhere shy of a PhD thesis, but it'd probably stand up for a Master's.

Foggy said:
a parade of tropes is about the least interesting way to criticize art that I can imagine.

I wonder if just maybe she--being in fact a Master--knows that. I wonder if just perhaps she's more interested in a culture and pervasive attitudes than any given game. I'm being facetious: isn't it obvious that's her project? Games are a lens to access a culture here.

You may think depth analysis of a game is more valuable than breadth analysis of a bunch but 1) so very few games actually support meaningful reading 2) breadth is important, too.

Because...

Foggy said:
It has the same cutting depth as the Bechdel Test. Tropes and the Bechdel Test are there to illuminate an issue at large, but too often people use them as shorthand for judging a piece of art.

Again. How do you think she's possibly unaware of this? She has a video about the Bechdel test, discussing when it's useful and when it isn't. This series doesn't care about "judging" games. It cares about the community of people *at large* who don't approach games with enough of a critical eye to realize how gross they are as a rule.

The Blue Jihad · Aug 29, 2014

The Technomancer said:
They're not trying to be in depth analyses. That's not the goal. Again, I've tried digging into individual games before, and all you get back is "well its just this one game! go play something else if you don't like it!". If the point you're trying to make is that there is a pervasive use of certain tropes in the industry, focusing on one example doesn't work. Her going broad and juxtaposing all of these many games against each other to show how pervasive the tropes are is exactly the right approach for what she is trying to demonstrate

If going with in-depth criticism isn't the goal (even though it should be), then I'd appreciate not seeing this ridiculous "But can't you at least acknowledge she's attempting some sort of academic rigor" nonsense, which is what I replied to. Because to those who have actually gone through academic study, there's nothing academic about these videos.

If all you're looking for is a scattered overview, like you're looking at a Buzzfeed summary of a TVTropes page, fine. Enjoy that. But let's not lose our heads and betray a lack of true academic experience by conflating these videos with any vague level of scholarly critique.

Furthermore, since you keep harping on this "well its just this one game! go play something else if you don't like it!" response, let's go through the thread and collate together all of the responses focused on the games, themselves. Then we can get a much better sense of whether the responses are compete wastes or if they're all just getting lost in the shuffle of a thread where ADHD is the norm.

Here's a starting point: go back a few pages, when I was talking about BioShock. That's your first game rebuttal, a much closer, more productive, scholarly reading of the game that demonstrates the title is taking a very critical stance on violence and the objectification of women, contrary to the video's interpretation. BioShock explores the aftermath of a society gone mad. It is immensely critical of hierarchal society and everything in the game follows from that, even the corpses lining the halls of Rapture. So what seems to be the objectification of women is, in practice, the complete opposite.

I'm sure someone in the thread has done close readings of Hitman and RDR. Hell, Hitman is a fairly easy analysis, and that's just speaking to the raw game mechanics and playstyle.

Finally, if you want to examine pervasive use of tropes in the industry, then you need to be sure the games you're referencing are actually using the tropes in the manner you're suggesting. You need to clearly show that by doing a thorough analysis of the work. This is lit theory 101. Even in the Background Decorations video, there is one game, in particular, that would provide an extraordinarily strong case: Watch_Dogs. Even in watching the brief snippet, that fact jumped out at me immediately. There's a lot to unpack there and it wouldn't be in the game's favor at all.

The most effective criticism isn't one that uses one video to cover tons of games. It's one that uses one video to cover one or two games at a time and allows the conclusion to develop over the course of the series. If the point is going to be the same, then it's far better to have four strong analytical videos rather than one weak quick-look.

The Technomancer · Aug 29, 2014

You're still not...understanding? I feel like we're talking past each other. The way to convince people that sexist tropes are a pervasive problem in the industry is not to show them two games that contain sexist tropes. Her stated goal with this series is highlighting trends and pervasive patterns, not creating essays on singular games that she finds problematic.

Anton Sugar · Aug 29, 2014

The Technomancer said:
You're still not...understanding? I feel like we're talking past each other. The way to convince people that sexist tropes are a pervasive problem in the industry is not to show them two games that contain sexist tropes. Her stated goal with this series is highlighting trends and pervasive patterns, not creating essays on singular games that she finds problematic.

Also, why should she assume that everyone knows about these tropes and acknowledges their existence? Almost every Anita thread has multiple posters saying "she's making this up" "these tropes aren't real" etc.

4Tran · Aug 29, 2014

SaggyMonkey said:
Basically what I've taken away from these videos is that games have a lot of amateur writers who just rip off the same sources. If you widened the lens you'd find many cliches being overused, not just around female characters. I'd hope if anything designers and writers reflect about how to use some different storytelling techniques.

That's exactly what the videos are trying to say, so they seem to be working!

SaggyMonkey said:
What I don't take away from these videos that this pattern is a sign of some patriarchal conspiracy in game development to only show "violence against women" when in reality those games utilize violent acts casually in general.

Good. I don't think that Sarkeesian was trying to imply that her examples came from any malicious intent from game designers. Instead, they're meant to illustrate how poor portrayals of women are pervasive in the game industry.

SaggyMonkey said:
Maybe your opinion is that you'd prefer to play less violent games, fine... Games shouldn't be above critical reflection. But as a societal ill that games may or may not be causing, Jack Thompson had a hard time proving it, and so has Anita so far.

The harm can be seen in the very content that shows up in the videos. The developers of Bioshock 2 said that they never gave any thought to the negative portrayals of women they put in. It's as if it's natural to show murdered prostitutes in a game.

The developers said that they wanted to improve on this which means that they are now aware that they didn't do a good job in the first place, and that they can take the ideas from the criticism to improve on future games. That looks like a real win for the video series.

Foggy · Aug 29, 2014

Brakke said:
"Academic analysis isn't ever broad" is a goof ball thing to say. Y'all continue to think this is a literature text, but isn't it obviously a media studies text? The series in full is probably somewhere shy of a PhD thesis, but it'd probably stand up for a Master's.

I wonder if just maybe she--being in fact a Master--knows that. I wonder if just perhaps she's more interested in a culture and pervasive attitudes than any given game. I'm being facetious: isn't it obvious that's her project? Games are a lens to access a culture here.

You may think depth analysis of a game is more valuable than breadth analysis of a bunch but 1) so very few games actually support meaningful reading 2) breadth is important, too.

Because...

Again. How do you think she's possibly unaware of this? She has a video about the Bechdel test, discussing when it's useful and when it isn't. This series doesn't care about "judging" games. It cares about the community of people *at large* who don't approach games with enough of a critical eye to realize how gross they are as a rule.

You seem to think I'm questioning her intellect or her integrity. I'm just talking about how her approach to the subject isn't interesting to me or enlightening. She chose her path of analysis and I think it's shallow and does far little for the artform than her platform could allow for. I don't particularly care for if she's aware of how shallow examination through tropes is, the end product is a shallow series of videos that serve a purpose(a great one!) but by slavishly devoting itself to that kind of examination is terribly limited.

stupei · Aug 29, 2014

Foggy said:
You seem to think I'm questioning her intellect or her integrity. I'm just talking about how her approach to the subject isn't interesting to me or enlightening. She chose her path of analysis and I think it's shallow and does far little for the artform than her platform could allow for. I don't particularly care for if she's aware of how shallow examination through tropes is, the end product is a shallow series of videos that serve a purpose(a great one!) but by slavishly devoting itself to that kind of examination is terribly limited.

But since there is such a massive problem with the culture of gaming and since so many developers have expressed that they find her videos incredibly enlightening, isn't it possible that such basic analysis is necessary as a foundation first before any higher understanding or deeper analysis can even be understood? Rudimentary as you might find her current videos, they still go over the heads of a great many viewers, as evidenced even here on GAF.

If her intention is to educate a large number of people on broad trends -- which using youtube as a platform would suggest -- then sticking to a wider scope that illustrates gaming culture as a whole is closer to her goals. It might not be as satisfying academically, but I don't know that she cares or that she should.

Foggy · Aug 29, 2014

stupei said:
But since there is such a massive problem with the culture of gaming and since so many developers have expressed that they find her videos incredibly enlightening, isn't it possible that such basic analysis is necessary as a foundation first before any higher understanding or deeper analysis can even be understood? Rudimentary as you might find her current videos, they still go over the heads of a great many viewers, as evidenced even here on GAF.

If her intention is to educate a large number of people on broad trends -- which using youtube as a platform would suggest -- then sticking to a wider scope that illustrates gaming culture as a whole is closer to her goals. It might not be as satisfying academically, but I don't know that she cares or that she should.

Tropes are terribly rudimentary and I think you can get the point across quite effectively without resorting to a dozen videos spanning 20+ minutes. If the point isn't received then it doesn't matter if the video is 5 minutes or 60 minutes, you're either doing it wrong or you're a very dense viewer. Devoting so many resources to a catalog of trends feels excessive to me. Is it having a good effect on developers? In some ways, yeah, and that's awesome. I want more out of this. She has this amazing platform to speak from and I'm hoping for more. Is that such a bad thing?

It's affecting discourse too. Too many times people start and end with tropes when it comes to criticizing a piece of art. For too many people that want change in video games, the existence of a trope is enough for condemnation. This bears out in the whole Far Cry 4 "gay villain" silliness. People have gone past seeing trope flags as an issue industry-wide and apply it to a game that hasn't even been released yet. With zero context or understanding. Is it incumbent on Sarkeesian to have such an exhaustive and comprehensive critique? Of course not and I'm not criticizing her. I think the videos are limited, redundant, and could be more.

On a separate note, I'd also argue that the massive problem isn't so much with the culture of gaming, but with the culture of mainstream gaming. Independent and esoteric games are just as vital a part of the culture as the heavy hitters and fans of other art forms are very well aware of these inherent divides. I'd never expect underground music fans to particularly care about how trends in pop music are reflecting on their culture nor would I expect mainstream film ails to affect fans of Italian crime cinema from the 70's. I guess that's why I'm perplexed about all the hand-wringing over being associated with cretins by virtue of playing interactive videogames. Maybe it's just because this is a relatively young artform, but I'm surprised videogame culture isn't as splintered as some other fandoms. But I guess that's just a different conversation entirely.

Brakke · Aug 29, 2014

Foggy said:
You seem to think I'm questioning her intellect or her integrity. I'm just talking about how her approach to the subject isn't interesting to me or enlightening. She chose her path of analysis and I think it's shallow and does far little for the artform than her platform could allow for. I don't particularly care for if she's aware of how shallow examination through tropes is, the end product is a shallow series of videos that serve a purpose(a great one!) but by slavishly devoting itself to that kind of examination is terribly limited.

Yeah, I feel you. I suppose for me it's mostly that--given that she's working in a space of basically zero critical conversations at her scale--a broad and shallow approach is clearly an effective approach. All those piles of tweets from Bioshock folks and Double Fine folks and more and more indicate to me that a lot of these creators haven't been making things as intentionally as they might have been.

I totally agree that deep readings of games are more intellectually exciting for me than broad trend explication. Shit, I took every excuse I could to do that at university. I did like thirty pages on Resident Evil 5 for one class. A lot of the times I tried to do that, my efforts were frustrated by pop games just not standing up to it. Virtually every game comes with some or many levels of contradiction between the written story, the "gameplay loop" / physical experience, and the unscripted emergent stories that come from the assumptions of the simulation. Games that articulate any ideas in any kind of harmony are pretty rare, and I think a big part of that is that creators make a bunch of decisions in service of "fun" or scene setting or whatever, without going back to consider what those decisions actually say in a thematic sense.

So, this whole project she's taking up feels like the most worthy right now--to me anyway--it's the one that gets us to the point where we have more than like two or three games per year that stand with proper literary merit. Almost all games today are pulp, with a small number that fall under "pop" and like one or two that fall under "literature". I desperately want to see that hyperbola flatten out.

The Blue Jihad · Aug 29, 2014

The Technomancer said:
You're still not...understanding? I feel like we're talking past each other. The way to convince people that sexist tropes are a pervasive problem in the industry is not to show them two games that contain sexist tropes. Her stated goal with this series is highlighting trends and pervasive patterns, not creating essays on singular games that she finds problematic.

Believe me when I say that I understand the intent. In many ways, I applaud the idea of a reading from a different perspective. However, there are far better methods to use for the deconstructive analysis, and these are methods that will do two things:

1) Make the point about the individual game much stronger
2) Make the larger theme stronger in that the build up and support of it has been very well-documented

The stated goal is to highlight a trend, so how can you highlight a trend by skimming over 7-8 games in 20 minutes?

Simply, you can't, because you do not have the time to explore any of the games sufficiently, which brings me back to an earlier point:

It's far better to have four good videos focusing on two games each than one scattered video jumping around between eight games. Because at least that way, you're demonstrating some actual scholarly analysis regarding how these tropes are used, rather than the empty Buzzfeed approach. The end conclusion is more or less the same, but the support is far more thorough, well-documented, and far less "gappy."

And one of the big reasons why people here have problems with these videos is because of how sparse they are on actual analysis.

besada · Aug 29, 2014

The Blue Jihad said:
And one of the big reasons why people here have problems with these videos is because of how sparse they are on actual analysis.

If only those people would make the sorts of videos they seem obsessed with in these threads, rather than, you know, just complaining in these threads. One of the most common "complaints" in Sarkeesian threads is that she hasn't done a good enough job with the videos, and that they should be more academic, and yet I never see any of these people -- who clearly know how to do it right -- actually doing anything other than tearing into the Sarkeesian videos.

After seeing it enough, one begins to wonder if those people would be satisfied with any video, of if they actually just believe there should be no videos on the subject.

Foggy · Aug 29, 2014

Edit: Nevermind, I guess that's just how it's gotta be.

Gestault · Aug 29, 2014

besada said:
If only those people would make the sorts of videos they seem obsessed with in these threads, rather than, you know, just complaining in these threads. One of the most common "complaints" in Sarkeesian threads is that she hasn't done a good enough job with the videos, and that they should be more academic, and yet I never see any of these people -- who clearly know how to do it right -- actually doing anything other than tearing into the Sarkeesian videos.

After seeing it enough, one begins to wonder if those people would be satisfied with any video, of if they actually just believe there should be no videos on the subject.

I have criticisms of some of his work as well, but Evan W. Lauteria has published papers on gender dynamics in videogames and queer communities that've been interesting, if people are looking for more directed work. He's a fellow Syracuse University alum. (Yes, some papers are "easier" targets than others, if people are looking to tear him apart more than they are looking for observations of patterns at play.)

besada · Aug 29, 2014

Foggy said:
Edit: Nevermind, I guess that's just how it's gotta be.

I'm not going to ban you. Speak up. I'm serious about people making their own videos. In every thread about Sarkeesian, I see a dozen guys who have what appears to be a clear idea of what these videos should be. Crowdsourcing has never been easier, and launching such a thing on GAF would ensure an initial leap. For that matter, I've seen these same complaints on /v/, Reddit, and other boards.

If people think that the real problem with Sarkeesian's videos are that they aren't academic enough, or they don't point in the right places, or they don't fully understand the context of the game, it seems to me that a more productive approach than complaining in these threads is to do it right. I imagine you'd have plenty of supporters.

Hell, I'd be happy to donate. I think we need more voices discussing this, not less. And who better than GAFfers, who eat, drink, and breathe games?

Imru al-Qays · Aug 29, 2014

besada said:
I'm not going to ban you. Speak up. I'm serious about people making their own videos. In every thread about Sarkeesian, I see a dozen guys who have what appears to be a clear idea of what these videos should be. Crowdsourcing has never been easier, and launching such a thing on GAF would ensure an initial leap. For that matter, I've seen these same complaints on /v/, Reddit, and other boards.

If people think that the real problem with Sarkeesian's videos are that they aren't academic enough, or they don't point in the right places, or they don't fully understand the context of the game, it seems to me that a more productive approach than complaining in these threads is to do it right. I imagine you'd have plenty of supporters.

Hell, I'd be happy to donate. I think we need more voices discussing this, not less. And who better than GAFfers, who eat, drink, and breathe games?

I'd love to support something like this. I'm not sure many people qualified to do this sort of analysis really have the time for it, though.

Brakke · Aug 29, 2014

Imru al-Qays;127653041 said:
I'd love to support something like this. I'm not sure many people qualified to do this sort of analysis really have the time for it, though.

Well if you funded it, you could buy the time. Anita didn't "have time" until she did her crowdfunding...

The Blue Jihad · Aug 29, 2014

besada said:
I'm not going to ban you. Speak up. I'm serious about people making their own videos. In every thread about Sarkeesian, I see a dozen guys who have what appears to be a clear idea of what these videos should be. Crowdsourcing has never been easier, and launching such a thing on GAF would ensure an initial leap. For that matter, I've seen these same complaints on /v/, Reddit, and other boards.

If people think that the real problem with Sarkeesian's videos are that they aren't academic enough, or they don't point in the right places, or they don't fully understand the context of the game, it seems to me that a more productive approach than complaining in these threads is to do it right. I imagine you'd have plenty of supporters.

Hell, I'd be happy to donate. I think we need more voices discussing this, not less. And who better than GAFfers, who eat, drink, and breathe games?

The thought has crossed my mind on more than one occasion, to be quite honest. My background and education are well-suited for in-depth critique and editing. The thing is... I'm not an on-camera guy. I was 10 years ago, but that was a long, long time. And I was never that good in front of the camera, anyway.

Behind it, though...that's a different story. Research, writing, script editing--those areas are where I'm extremely skilled, and it's those areas I'd be absolutely willing to assist in this kind of venture.

Cat · Aug 29, 2014

The Blue Jihad said:
The thought has crossed my mind on more than one occasion, to be quite honest. My background and education are well-suited for in-depth critique and editing. The thing is... I'm not an on-camera guy. I was 10 years ago, but that was a long, long time. And I was never that good in front of the camera, anyway.

Behind it, though...that's a different story. Research, writing, script editing--those areas are where I'm extremely skilled, and it's those areas I'd be absolutely willing to assist in this kind of venture.

Well, maybe you could find someone willing to work with you to be the on-camera person.

besada · Aug 29, 2014

The Blue Jihad said:
The thought has crossed my mind on more than one occasion, to be quite honest. My background and education are well-suited for in-depth critique and editing. The thing is... I'm not an on-camera guy. I was 10 years ago, but that was a long, long time. And I was never that good in front of the camera, anyway.

Behind it, though...that's a different story. Research, writing, script editing--those areas are where I'm extremely skilled, and it's those areas I'd be absolutely willing to assist in this kind of venture.

Well, if I were you and really wanted to do this, I'd find either another GAFfer who is comfortable in front of the camera, or a well-known personality that's been fairly neutral on the issue and engage them.

From there you start a Kickstarter. It's mere existence is likely to generate publicity, and if that's not enough I'm sure you'd find folks to help. There are a bunch of well known guys with reach on GAF, and some who are ex-GAFfers who'd likely help (famousmortimer, thuway, etc.). You might find other supporters on /v/ or Reddit.

And, as I've said, I will personally donate to anyone who addresses the issue. And I'm not a cheapskate. My only requirement is that it has to be about the issues of sexism in games, not an attack on Sarkessian or feminism in general. There's already at least one of those on IndieGoGo and a host of them from folks like thunderf00t. If I wanted to see ranting about how there is no issue, that's already available.

That's the thing, I'm not against different voices, but I'm not interested in more people saying "there is no issue" or simply attacking those who are trying. If you think Sarkeesian is doing it poorly, then someone should do it well.

Gestault · Aug 29, 2014

I put together a more specific write-up and created a thread about other writing on topics parallel to Sarkeesian's work, if people are interested:

Gender in Gameplay Highlight | "An Addition to Anita"

Coreda · Aug 29, 2014

The Blue Jihad said:
The stated goal is to highlight a trend, so how can you highlight a trend by skimming over 7-8 games in 20 minutes?

Isn't that exactly how one highlights a trend? Otherwise it could appear to focus only on a few select examples, which again people may criticize for being to narrow a scope to call a widespread trend.

And one of the big reasons why people here have problems with these videos is because of how sparse they are on actual analysis.

The way I see it these videos are 'good enough' for their intended purpose: to highlight negative aspects of how women are often presented in games and how things could be better. Some would prefer a greater context to some examples, but they've caused a stir and discussion about important issues, which is better than if they had remained some obscure videos that didn't garner much attention.

In some ways with the reactions to all this I think people can at times feel more open to opinions when those who love something are critiquing it, as they can view them more as an insider who can appreciate the games in other ways, although analysis from gamers themselves can often be surface-deep so I applaud someone taking the time to make such videos. I think ultimately Sarkeesian just rubs many people the wrong way.

Imru al-Qays · Aug 29, 2014

Brakke said:
Well if you funded it, you could buy the time. Anita didn't "have time" until she did her crowdfunding...

Sarkeesian's full-time job at the time of her crowdfunding was feminist blogger, I thought.

Brakke · Aug 29, 2014

"Saints Row Writer Accepts Anita Sarkeesian's Critique of His Games"

Steve Jaros said:
I think that it is a problem in the games industry. I think that we shouldn't be portraying senseless abused women and I think that if I could go back and hop in a time machine I would have done things differently. But there's also some things I didn't any control over and also I think that people's consciousness grew.

Steve Jaros said:
It's very minor but it means something to me. We never call a woman a 'ho' in Saints Row 4, we call them sex workers. We respect that that's their position and we don't take a cheap shot at them for that. It's a minor thing, but it's something ... It's the right thing to do.

Steve Jaros said:
Viola and Kiki are sex workers in Saints Row 3, but they are the most covered up characters. They're wearing turtlenecks, leggings and a skirt over leggings. They don't show an inch of skin, and it was by design, because we didn't want to sexually objectify them.

Steve Jaros said:
I think it's fair to be called out on your shit. I think that it's a sad man that can never be self-reflective. I think that we tried to go and carry ourselves with respect, and try to respect sexuality and respect gender as much as we can, and sometimes we fail but hopefully we'll do better and continue to get better.

Brakke · Aug 29, 2014

I buried the lede by leaving out this awesome pic from the article, though.

The Blue Jihad · Aug 29, 2014

Coreda said:
Isn't that exactly how one highlights a trend? Otherwise it could appear to focus only on a few select examples, which again people may criticize for being to narrow a scope to call a widespread trend.

Ehhh, I don't see it as highlighting a trend. I see it more as referencing a handful of brief snippets and slotting them into a preexisting conclusion. I think that's why it feels really off for me...because it's all being done in reverse. That's why it's important to give each game more time. There would be fewer examples per video, but the level of quality and depth of analysis would more than make up for it, and it would be significantly less off-putting than a strung-together clip show. The trend would become clear further in the series, because you would have been building off of solid, insightful, and nuanced discussion, not simply "look at all of these moments of abuse." Taking a careful, measured, well-rounded, and informed look at these titles would provide the opportunity to call out the truly egregious offenders (Watch_Dogs) while remaining fair to those games that do not rely on decoration (BioShock 1). If, by the end of a video or article, for example, you find that a game wasn't as sexist as you initially suspected, being able to publish those findings in an individual release would be tremendous; it would demonstrate that you put analysis first, and conclusions second, which is not something I'm seeing in a lot of the videos as it is. Even the Dollhouse/Terminator one. It was conclusion first, then analysis to fit into it. Background Decoration did something similar: conclusion first, then pulling moments out of games that fit the narrative, even when some of those games weren't anywhere close to saying what she was suggesting (BioShock) or played entirely differently from how she described (Hitman).

Hrm. Yeah, if I have time this weekend, I'm writing up a plan for this series. I don't know how it'd work. I don't know where we'd begin...but this definitely needs to happen if at all possible...

Imru al-Qays · Aug 29, 2014

The Blue Jihad said:
Ehhh, I don't see it as highlighting a trend. I see it more as referencing a handful of brief snippets and slotting them into a preexisting conclusion. I think that's why it feels really off for me...because it's all being done in reverse. That's why it's important to give each game more time. There would be fewer examples per video, but the level of quality and depth of analysis would more than make up for it, and it would be significantly less off-putting than a strung-together clip show. The trend would become clear further in the series, because you would have been building off of solid, insightful, and nuanced discussion, not simply "look at all of these moments of abuse." Taking a careful, measured, well-rounded, and informed look at these titles would provide the opportunity to call out the truly egregious offenders (Watch_Dogs) while remaining fair to those games that do not rely on decoration (BioShock 1). If, by the end of a video or article, for example, you find that a game wasn't as sexist as you initially suspected, being able to publish those findings in an individual release would be tremendous; it would demonstrate that you put analysis first, and conclusions second, which is not something I'm seeing in a lot of the videos as it is. Even the Dollhouse/Terminator one. It was conclusion first, then analysis to fit into it. Background Decoration did something similar: conclusion first, then pulling moments out of games that fit the narrative, even when some of those games weren't anywhere close to saying what she was suggesting (BioShock) or played entirely differently from how she described (Hitman).

Hrm. Yeah, if I have time this weekend, I'm writing up a plan for this series. I don't know how it'd work. I don't know where we'd begin...but this definitely needs to happen if at all possible...

This sounds like it could be a really worthwhile endeavor.

figadapaura · Aug 29, 2014

Brakke said:
"Saints Row Writer Accepts Anita Sarkeesian's Critique of His Games"

That makes me really happy. Saints Row is already one of the most gender inclusive series around, so the fact they're still trying to better themselves in that regard is great to hear.

The Blue Jihad · Aug 29, 2014

figadapaura said:
That makes me really happy. Saints Row is already one of the most gender inclusive series around, so the fact they're still trying to better themselves in that regard is great to hear.

Volition is just a class act to begin with. That team doesn't take themselves too seriously, ever. Saints Row is uproariously good-natured. At this point, I can't even begin to believe it ever had been a GTA clone (and that shout out at the start of IV was perfect). I think the Ostrich Hammer is still hanging around in most of our memory banks. The fact that those guys saw the doctored artwork of early early Red Faction Guerrilla concept art--Axe Guy, I think it was--and freaking RAN with it was one of the funniest damn things I've ever seen. They straight up put it in the game as a weapon, sound effects and all.

Ostrichized...

BIRDFUCKED!

bjorn222 · Aug 30, 2014

Galactic Fork said:
1) where was the outrage at female cops in GTA V? It would be awesome if there were women cops. Hell, GTA SA had female cop voices but all the cops were male. And nobody said anything about all the female enemies in Skyrim. It's not just a person of a gender getting hurt that's the issue. Here is a quote from the video:

"When the victims are men, sexual objectification and sexual or domestic violence are almost never ingredients in the scenario. Even the countless male thugs and henchmen the player mows down in these games are depicted as active aggressors, not characterized as passive victims."

2) The men aren't there because they're maleness is being used. They are there because male is the default. Women are usually only added as either an afterthought, or sex appeal or their women-ness is needed for some reason. The fact that they are women is tied to their existance in the game. This is addressed a lot in the Mrs. Male Character video. In Mass Effect they didn't include female Turians or Krogan models for enemies or even background characters (except for one heavily veiled one in 3). Quarians had a female model made... And guess what, it's the race with a female love interest to Shepard. The only species that had only female models weren't actually female but agendered.

(Also there was no outrage about the human women enemies in the game, or the Asari (though not actually female).)

In the video they showed an example of a male body displayed in a non sexual way. If a woman was in the same position, it wouldn't have been sexualized either.

What if you saw Andrew Ryan beating up an innocent man? One who wasn't fighting back? You wouldn't care? This comes down to the fact that it's usually the women characterized as passive victims. Where men, even when innocent, are seen as less passive.

I can see the passive active thing as a point, but personally I see them all the same way.

As for the one male body she shows as an example, if you switched it out for a female one, everyone would just point out how its sexualized because you can see the bodies behind. It just seems like she expects every female body to be covered head to toe in a suit or Eskimo clothes.

And yes, I wouldn't care about andrew ryan beating up an innocent man. But i suppose that is because men die in every video game i have ever played.

HeelPower · Aug 30, 2014

The past two videos about Women as Background Decoration have been really powerful and affecting.

Impossible to defend any of that.

I respect these videos because the examples she showed were really embarrassing.Especially from the rockstar games(which I never buy btw)

But its important to note that its widespread in all forms of mainstream entertainment such as popular music and movies and ,in some cases, women themselves promote this.

Carcetti · Aug 30, 2014

figadapaura said:
That makes me really happy. Saints Row is already one of the most gender inclusive series around, so the fact they're still trying to better themselves in that regard is great to hear.

Saints Row series, especially the 4th game, is a really good example of that even games with silly, sexual humor and crazed violence can work while not being regressive or nasty. I could go on for a long time how much I like it.

BGMNTS · Aug 30, 2014

35 pages.

There are actual, literal disgusting human rights atrocities, acts of terrorism, rapings, murders going on around the world but this is what people will perpetually over.

Also, rap music is infinitely more disgusting than the straightwhitemale machine, can we maybe stomp out the misogyny in that?

ChawlieTheFair · Aug 30, 2014

HeelPower said:
The past two videos about Women as Background Decoration have been really powerful and affecting.

Impossible to defend any of that.

I respect these videos because the examples she showed were really embarrassing.Especially from the rockstar games(which I never buy btw)

But its important to note that its widespread in all forms of mainstream entertainment such as popular music and movies and ,in some cases, women themselves promote this.

I guess you haven't read any of this thread or the previous threads on her videos.

Htown · Aug 30, 2014

BGMNTS said:
35 pages.

Step your posts-per-page game up

There are actual, literal disgusting human rights atrocities, acts of terrorism, rapings, murders going on around the world but this is what people will perpetually over.

Actual atrocities going on and you're busy being angry about people talking about stuff on a message board.

There are 24 hours in a day. The human brain can handle thinking about more than one thing between sunup and sundown.

Also, rap music is infinitely more disgusting than the straightwhitemale machine, can we maybe stomp out the misogyny in that?

Off Topic is thataway, bro. Make a thread on it if you want, nobody's gonna stop you.

BGMNTS · Aug 30, 2014

Htown said:
Step your posts-per-page game up

Actual atrocities going on and you're busy being angry about people talking about stuff on a message board.

There are 24 hours in a day. The human brain can handle thinking about more than one thing between sunup and sundown.

Off Topic is thataway, bro. Make a thread on it if you want, nobody's gonna stop you.

My point is there're more important things to argue about. We need to stick together, sexual chocolate!!

ishibear · Aug 30, 2014

HeelPower said:
The past two videos about Women as Background Decoration have been really powerful and affecting.

Impossible to defend any of that.

I respect these videos because the examples she showed were really embarrassing.Especially from the rockstar games(which I never buy btw)

But its important to note that its widespread in all forms of mainstream entertainment such as popular music and movies and ,in some cases, women themselves promote this.

Anita has chosen to focus on video games and she has that right. You can't expect a single person to focus on every area of everything. If you want to talk about this problem in other forms of media, do it. Anita shouldn't have to deal with all of that if she doesn't want to.

And I really don't understand why people love pointing out how women do this or do that, as if somehow that's a problem. Even if a woman chooses to do whatever, she's not causing conflict in the least. Feminism gives every woman a right to do as she pleases and exercise her choices as she sees fit. These women who "promote" this, are doing just fine, they're supposed to be comfortable doing whatever they please, that's what feminism strives for. Please stop bringing them up as if they need to be scolded. Because they don't.

televator · Aug 30, 2014

Brakke said:
"Saints Row Writer Accepts Anita Sarkeesian's Critique of His Games"

Awesome! I really ended up liking my female character in SRIV too. That french accented female voice was gold! It added so much tone of child like glee and exuberance to all the blood and violence in the game. lol!

notoccupanther · Aug 30, 2014

BGMNTS said:
35 pages.

There are actual, literal disgusting human rights atrocities, acts of terrorism, rapings, murders going on around the world but this is what people will perpetually over.

Also, rap music is infinitely more disgusting than the straightwhitemale machine, can we maybe stomp out the misogyny in that?

Erm ... there are hundreds of millions of gamers globally, if we can right this wrong through whatever means, we'd be a lot better off as a species methinks ...

Personally?

Jaykers .. that's put me on a downer for the foreseeable, until I can reconcile with myself why I should continue to indulge in a pastime that celebrates qualities that anyone would find abhorrent.

Sports titles still retain impartial, clean fun I suppose - so there's that

Being exposed to these incidents piecemeal as we all have been via individual games, certainly does not have the impact this 28 minute piece does when it's laid out in front of you, over and over and over again. It's a hard yet necessary watch.

Kudos to Anita for pursuing this and shining a necessary light into the recesses of the gaming world. I suppose every industry has an unsightly underbelly, this is gamings. I hope this gets the acknowledgement and mature consideration it deserves.

The Technomancer · Aug 30, 2014

I think he might be being sarcastic...maybe...

Terareflection · Aug 30, 2014

It's good that she doesn't touch Japanese games that much(especially if she ventures into hentai games), because those are on another level.

Riposte · Aug 30, 2014

Htown said:
Step your posts-per-page game up

Seriously, what is up with everyone using 50ppp these days?

allftw · Aug 31, 2014

Brakke said:
"Saints Row Writer Accepts Anita Sarkeesian's Critique of His Games"

It is good to see game devs listening to criticisms and shaping their future work with them in mind. And it's hard not to admire Sarkeesian. She's invoking positive change in the industry with her work at the cost of putting herself in the crosshairs.

Kinyou · Aug 31, 2014

allftw said:
It is good to see game devs listening to criticisms and shaping their future work with them in mind. And it's hard not to admire Sarkeesian. She's invoking positive change in the industry with her work at the cost of putting herself in the crosshairs.

As long as they understand the criticisms right. Where Steve Gaynor sees the "woman in the fridge" trope in Minerva's den still confuses me.

blankempathy · Aug 31, 2014

These discussions always devolve into talking about Anita herself then the actual content of her videos.

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