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Bayonetta and sexualization

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Kensuke

Member
Polygon's review of Bayonetta 2 is getting a lot of attention in the review thread. The review spends a lot of time talking about sexualization. In the end it bothered Arthur Gies so much he gave the game a 7.5, even though he thinks the gameplay is top notch.

The issue of Bayonetta and sexualization has been discussed to death, but I think it's worth discussing again because I think a lot of people are still getting needlessly confused. The discussion seems to be centered on whether Bayonetta is a progressive empowered female or a sexualized male fantasy. However, I think it's pretty obvious Bayonetta is both.

Bayonetta is an empowered female who rocks her sexuality with confidence. She dominates over all male characters in the game. Her sex appeal is part of her persona and she wields it like a weapon. This is all pretty rare for a big budget game to have and should be applauded. At the same time it's undeniable that the numerous 'tits and ass' shots and closeups on her crotch are there for titillation. These shots in no way empower Bayonetta as a woman, they are there to please a male audience. In fact, any casual anime-watcher will recognize them immediately as 'fanservice'.

So, there is a weird duality going on here where Bayo is both a strong sexy female lead and a sexualized woman. In reality, this situation doesn't seem uncommon in Japanese media. For example, I'd argue the female leads in the Kill la Kill anime are very similar to Bayonetta.

I like to think of Bayonetta (the game) as a really cool story of an empowered female, but this story is being filmed by a really pervy director. And we're all somehow playing that movie. Personally, it doesn't bother me enough to really detract from my enjoyment of the game. But I still think it's useful recognize some aspects of the game for what they are.
 

Silky

Banned
Bayonetta should consider a side hustle in the pro basketball with how tall she is.

Why isn't there a ball weapon in Bayo 2 where you can spike flaming spheres at enemies.
 

GlamFM

Banned
I don´t know what Bayonetta is, but the virtual cameraman filming her crotch on every occasion is a perv.
 

Moofers

Member
Short but sweet, this tweet nails it:
From @ Kenjisalk:
"I hate to be "there's a 3rd option" but bayonetta is neither sexist nor a feminist icon. She's a bawdy, goofy dragshow. Harmless fun parody."
 

The Llama

Member
I haven't spent a lot of time playing the first one (and obviously haven't played the second), but I've seen plenty of videos, etc. Is it wrong that I actually agree with Gies on this? It all just seems so over the top, it completely turns me off from the game.
 

Foffy

Banned
I thought the over rampant sexualization of Bayonetta borderlines on irreverent. It is quite clear that just the concept of Bayonetta doesn't seem applicable to any woman on this planet. If anything, the style implied in Bayonetta is seen in glamazon-esque drag queens, who themselves dress up as women as acts of reverence to societal impositions on gender.

How and why people get miffed by it astonishes me.
 
Personally it doesn't bother me since I don't look bayo in a sexual way, the thing is the Japanese population has a different humor than us and we western folks tend to over analyze stuff too much. Amirite? probably not but that's just my two cents on the matter.
 

Paskil

Member
Some of the aspects of the game definitely have the additional creeper status. It's one thing that she is confident and wields her sexuality. It's something else to see the creeper shots and the very generous fan service, via posing and camera angles.

Overall though, I will probably get around to playing the first game at some point and maybe the second when I get my WiiU and if I like the first.
 
This is why we can't have porn video games. The technology to make awesome experiences exists, but it's still so taboo that everyone shits their pants when females are sexualized.

I agree with Blizzard's mission statement - Gameplay First. If Bayo's gameplay rocks, then score it appropriately, please.
 

dugdug

Banned
Credit where it's due, at least Polygon is being consistent.

Bayonetta seems to get a pass from a lot people who cry out at every chance when a character's boobs are showing.
 
just accept the fact some "socially progressive" game reviewers won't be objective and will consider any form of sex a negative aspect. So no need to get your underpants in a tizzle.

the sooner you realize Kotaku or Polygon will always deem anything they find personally objectionable as the de facto aspect of it, the better.

if a game is from japan or has cleavage, just don't take anything they say with any inkling of seriousness.

you will have a much better time!

also, Gies gonna Gies

also, hits gonna get hits
 

L Thammy

Member
I haven't played either game in full, but from what I've seen, I feel like it's largely in the area of camp. It's more obvious in the first game when Bayonetta has the big beehive hairdo: it's so ridiculous that I can't even find it sexy. It's like the squatting pose from the first game. It looks like she's taking a shit.

Maybe Bayonetta 2 changes that?
 

Sephzilla

Member
I guess I just don't understand why people frown upon sexualization in video games more so than ultra violence in video games.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Speaking of sex appeal, Bayonetta’s is downright intimidating, which is part of why I posit that this game is intentionally leaning into the concept of “male gaze” for the sake of comedy and reclamation. I don’t particularly care whether that’s intentional or not, because either way, I’m entertained. For example, the game’s early tutorial of Bayonetta’s “Torture” attacks featured a one-time-only cut-scene of her straddling an angelic centaur, bouncing enthusiastically on top of it, and sighing in lusty pleasure at the sensation. Then, she flings the centaur into a meat grinder, whisking it into a tower of blood and guts. This moment, which happens very early on, is probably the most overtly sexual cut-scene of the entire game; the only other moment that strikes a similar tone happens over the game’s closing credits, when a sepia-toned Bayonetta does a slow-motion pole dance with a massive battle axe. However, the song in the background is a jazzy, almost tragic rendition of “Fly me to the Moon”, which has been Bayonetta’s personal theme since the first game. It’s a song that she sings softly to herself in darker moments, such as when she is laying on the floor of a prison cell. In other words, Bayonetta—both the game and the heroine—is complicated.

From here.

Also this:
Bzz6cLmIcAAds25.jpg:large

Relevant for this too:
Credit where it's due, at least Polygon is being consistent.
 
Polygon's review of Bayonetta 2 is getting a lot of attention in the review thread. The review spends a lot of time talking about sexualization. In the end it bothered Arthur Gies so much he gave the game a 7.5, even though he thinks the gameplay is top notch.

The issue of Bayonetta and sexualization has been discussed to death, but I think it's worth discussing again because I think a lot of people are still getting needlessly confused. The discussion seems to be centered on whether Bayonetta is a progressive empowered female or a sexualized male fantasy. However, I think it's pretty obvious Bayonetta is both.

Bayonetta is an empowered female who rocks her sexuality with confidence. She dominates over all male characters in the game. Her sex appeal is part of her persona and she wields it like a weapon. This is all pretty rare for a big budget game to have and should be applauded. At the same time it's undeniable that the numerous 'tits and ass' shots and closeups on her crotch are there for titillation. These shots in no way empower Bayonetta as a woman, they are there to please a male audience. In fact, any casual anime-watcher will recognize them immediately as 'fanservice'.

So, there is a weird duality going on here where Bayo is both a strong sexy female lead and a sexualized woman. In reality, this situation doesn't seem uncommon in Japanese media. For example, I'd argue the female leads in the Kill la Kill anime are very similar to Bayonetta.

I like to think of Bayonetta (the game) as a really cool story of an empowered female, but this story is being filmed by a really pervy director. And we're all somehow playing that movie. Personally, it doesn't bother me enough to really detract from my enjoyment of the game. But I still think it's useful recognize some aspects of the game for what they are.

It's not fair to start off a possibly controversial thread with an even handed non-inflammatory post. You're doing it wrong.

Nonetheless I kinda disagree with separating the cameraman as a different entity since it is an intrinsic al property of the game's quality. Many a game has been plagued with a poor camera and criticised for it so a pervy camera should be seen in a similar light.
 

Seik

Banned
I can agree with OP that she's both.

Short but sweet, this tweet nails it:
From @ Kenjisalk:
"I hate to be "there's a 3rd option" but bayonetta is neither sexist nor a feminist icon. She's a bawdy, goofy dragshow. Harmless fun parody."

I can agree with this even more, in the end, there's nothing to be taken seriously with Bayonetta in general.

Polygon gonna polygon

Gies doesn't makes sense anyway, it's the same guy that gave a 9.5 to GTA V, which isn't sexualized or racist at all, right? :p
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I like to think of Bayonetta (the game) as a really cool story of an empowered female, but this story is being filmed by a really pervy director. And we're all somehow playing that movie. Personally, it doesn't bother me enough to really detract from my enjoyment of the game. But I still think it's useful recognize some aspects of the game for what they are.
Ultimately this is what should matter the most .. if it doesn't bother or detract from your enjoyment of the product, it shouldn't be an issue ..

if others wanna write pieces on it, it's their choice. The more important thing is that you're enjoying the product featuring the character in the first place or not.
 

Zafir

Member
I haven't spent a lot of time playing the first one (and obviously haven't played the second), but I've seen plenty of videos, etc. Is it wrong that I actually agree with Gies on this? It all just seems so over the top, it completely turns me off from the game.

Hardly wrong. It's opinions and taste. Not everyone appreciates what Bayonetta does. The world would be a rather boring place if everyone was the same.

As I said in the other thread. I think Bayonetta as a character is pretty great. It's just the way the cutscenes use her that I don't like. Like the bullets cutting her clothes off, and the up close and personal camera shots.
Polygon's review of Bayonetta 2 is getting a lot of attention in the review thread. The review spends a lot of time talking about sexualization. In the end it bothered Arthur Gies so much he gave the game a 7.5, even though he thinks the gameplay is top notch.

The issue of Bayonetta and sexualization has been discussed to death, but I think it's worth discussing again because I think a lot of people are still getting needlessly confused. The discussion seems to be centered on whether Bayonetta is a progressive empowered female or a sexualized male fantasy. However, I think it's pretty obvious Bayonetta is both.

Bayonetta is an empowered female who rocks her sexuality with confidence. She dominates over all male characters in the game. Her sex appeal is part of her persona and she wields it like a weapon. This is all pretty rare for a big budget game to have and should be applauded. At the same time it's undeniable that the numerous 'tits and ass' shots and closeups on her crotch are there for titillation. These shots in no way empower Bayonetta as a woman, they are there to please a male audience. In fact, any casual anime-watcher will recognize them immediately as 'fanservice'.

So, there is a weird duality going on here where Bayo is both a strong sexy female lead and a sexualized woman. In reality, this situation doesn't seem uncommon in Japanese media. For example, I'd argue the female leads in the Kill la Kill anime are very similar to Bayonetta.

I like to think of Bayonetta (the game) as a really cool story of an empowered female, but this story is being filmed by a really pervy director. And we're all somehow playing that movie. Personally, it doesn't bother me enough to really detract from my enjoyment of the game. But I still think it's useful recognize some aspects of the game for what they are.
I couldn't have put it better myself. Unfortunately, it kind of did detract from the experience when I tried the original games demo, and it put me off buying the full game. I'm consider getting the double pack for Wii U though. Maybe not straight away, but at some point.
 

TriniTrin

war of titties grampa
The polygon review comes from a guy who gave GTA5 a 9.5 and he sure didn't remove any points from that game even though it is full of racists and sexist things. But ohhhh bayonetta is overly sexualized....Polygon is just looking for clicks because they knew bayonetta was good but wanted to make some hypocritical statements.
 

GlamFM

Banned
This is why we can't have porn video games. The technology to make awesome experiences exists, but it's still so taboo that everyone shits their pants when females are sexualized.

I agree with Blizzard's mission statement - Gameplay First. If Bayo's gameplay rocks, then score it appropriately, please.

But it´s not simply sexualized - it´s "japanese weird" sexualized.

It´s something I would be embarrassed to be seen playing by my girlfriend.

I honestly would prefer her catching me watching hardcore porn than playing Bayo.
 
Has Arthur written a review in the last year that hasn't stirred up controversy? He always seems to be pushing his agenda a little too strongly nowadays. He used to be a decent source for reviews 3-4 years ago, now he's just a joke,
 

LeleSocho

Banned
example, I'd argue the female leads in the Kill la Kill anime are very similar to Bayonetta.
yGZc5Be.gif

You were going so well with your discourse...

---

So, we all know that Bayonetta's sexuality is not meant to degrade females and we know that Gies is an idiot who obviously gave that vote to create controversy since he admitted himself that the game is great...
Should we really spend time talking about this crap and give a chance to polylol to have more clicks?
Yes i know this is a discussion forum but this kind of discussion is so fabricated that it's not worth to talk about especially when there are tons of threads with very similar topics.
 

Boke1879

Member
You say that like review scores aren't completely arbitrary in the first place. (They are.)

Oh I agree. I just think it's a horrible reason to knock off that many points. I mean I know he's heard of Bayonetta one. He knew what he was getting into. It he knew that part of the game was going to bother him I think he should have had someone else do the review.
 

Tagyhag

Member
Gies likes to be different and a progressive icon.

And Polygon needs reviews like this because there ain't no one going there for actual critical reviews.
 

McDougles

Member
Outside of a moment very early in the game, where she rides up and down on an angelic horse enemy like she's riding a dick, complete with moaning, I believe it's overblown. That one moment, however, felt completely unjustified.

"There are enough gratuitous ass-shots, cleavage jokes and spread legs to fill an hours long super cut."

Not really. They do exist, but definitely not for an hour. The game is 9-10 hours long itself.

My biggest problem is that the review didn't speak to the confidence and strength to Bayonetta as a character. Her goal is to go to hell and back for her friend. I feel it's disingenuous to undersell her characterization within the plot in one vague paragraph, while ramping up your sexism arguments for four.
 

unround

Member
Some of the aspects of the game definitely have the additional creeper status. It's one thing that she is confident and wields her sexuality. It's something else to see the creeper shots and the very generous fan service, via posing and camera angles.

Overall though, I will probably get around to playing the first game at some point and maybe the second when I get my WiiU and if I like the first.

Yeah that's the problem I've had with it too. Bayonetta is fine conceptually as a woman who is powerful in general and empowered sexually, but the problem is that the camera, which obviously is not Bayonetta, does it's absolute best to reduce her to that sexuality.
 
The engine and fighting system was top notch in Bayonetta but I could not abide the setting or character so it just never clicked with me for that reason. Some of it was downright nauseating.

Edit: And in the pictures above it looks like she is walking and trying to stop a rather problematic bowel problem from coming out.
 

Infinite

Member
just accept the fact "socially progressive" game reviewers won't be objective and will consider any form of sex a negative aspect. So no need to get your underpants in a tizzle.

the sooner you realize Kotaku or Polygon will always deem anything they find personally objectionable as the de facto aspect of it, the better.

if a game is from japan or has cleavage, just don't take anything they say with any inkling of seriousness.

you will have a much better time!

also, Gies gonna Gies

There's no such thing as objective game reviews.
 

LTWood12

Member
People know what they're getting with Bayonetta. Giving it a 7.5 seems pretty petty. Arthur praises the first two Ninja Gaidens all the time, and never says anything about the Itagaki boob bouncing in either of them. Not sure if it's because he played them so long ago or what. Those games are of a different time I guess.

I like Arthur's reviews most of the time as far as the written word and his thoughts on gameplay. He's a really good writer, and really great at verbalizing what clicks with a game. But it really seems like lately he's just so put out with his job, and games in general. Like he's not having fun anymore.
 
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