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What's your definition of mature games?

B-Genius

Unconfirmed Member

Killer7 is definitely a mature game. Even with the stylised violence, the themes it deals with and the way it deals with them are pretty heavy.

I would also say that the Souls games are pretty mature. Bloodborne especially strikes me as a "mature game made by mature folk". Bleak atmosphere; eerie suggestions of fallen society; lots of blood but not in a slapstick, gratuitous kind of way; what little humour there is is dark and helpless; there are no cheap jokes or blatant nod-winks to other games or media (outside of general cultural references); it doesn't try to show off or compromise itself for the sake of the player (no flashy slo-mo or kill-cams); it seems to exist in its own right and is everything it wants to be without necessarily conforming to any trends or ideals.

Some might argue that (aside from the gestures and ragdoll) the Souls games take themselves too seriously. But that's fine, I think. Not many games do this. And that, to me, is the mark of a mature game.
 

soy.

Banned
for the makers of that term, it's pretty obvious that's the definition is "anything that's not nintendo"

for me, game like no more heroes are as mature as it gets. but yeah, it's cell shaded, it's colorful, it have stupid story, the main hero jerks off to charge his lightsaber, oh! and IT'S NINTENDO EXCLUSIVE. therefore it can't be mature. it's a stupid kiddie game.

to be blunt, i think the term "mature games" are meant to be a direct insult to nintendo.
just like the term "spunkgargleweewee" are a direct insult to AAA shooter games.
 
Games are not mature or immature, people are. (And what it means to be mature is highly arguable.)

EDIT: A game that can be enjoyed (or let's say, thoroughly enjoyed) by a mature person suits mature taste, thus is a mature game.

That's one meaning of maturity, the kind people seem to be referring to here, but a more appropriate meaning would be how "complete" the game is. An immature game is one that still needs to grow, e.g., a beta.

It depends on the context, 9 times out of 10 I would just say anything with an M rating.

I like these answers.

Comparatively to some other definitions, I feel like defining "mature" by what it's not to me. Mature isn't a standard for fun, for being taken serious, or for where something necessarily needs to go.
 
for the makers of that term, it's pretty obvious that's the definition is "anything that's not nintendo"

for me, game like no more heroes are as mature as it gets. but yeah, it's cell shaded, it's colorful, it have stupid story, the main hero jerks off to charge his lightsaber, oh! and IT'S NINTENDO EXCLUSIVE. therefore it can't be mature. it's a stupid kiddie game.

to be blunt, i think the term "mature games" are meant to be a direct insult to nintendo.
just like the term "spunkgargleweewee" are a direct insult to AAA shooter games.
I must have missed the part of this thread where someone said NMH is "a stupid kiddie game." Could you point me to this thread?

Or were you just making crap up?
 

Sami+

Member
Games that deal with themes I (or people like me) can relate to, instead of fighting demons for the sake of fighting demons. Games that will make me re-evaluate my own life.

Examples: Heavy Rain, Catherine, The Walking Dead, Beyond: Two Souls, Katawa Shoujo

Has content fitting for interpretation by adults, whether explicit or implicit.

These two nailed it.

MGS2 is a very silly game with a lot of very silly content, and yet the actual underlying themes and meanings in the game are profound and incredibly ahead of their time. It's genuinely awe-inspiring how the game only becomes more relevant as time goes by. That is maturity.

Other examples I like are ICO and Shadow of the Colossus, Demon's/Dark Souls, and The Last of Us.

Edit (again) - Oh, and Catherine. VERY honorable mention for Catherine, which absolutely surpasses the expectation its cover creates.
 

DevilFox

Member
I agree with the rest of your post and your analysis of themes story and direction etc, but I have an issue with this. Most games do have stories and themes worth analyzing. But how then would you take games like Gran Turismo which seem to be fundamentally about complex and detailed mechanics?

I asked myself the same question and I didn't find a real answer.
All I can say is that GT has a lot in common with what I've said about Mario Galaxy: drive on the Nurburgring with a GT40 from day to night and it feels magical
Or drive at night in the rain with a supercar launched at crazy speed..

iQn8iPFTMueTr.gif


it's something you can't do or feel in real life if you're not a racer.
it just feels special and it becomes possible only thanks to the game that has a great mix of its components. There's no way I'll ever feel the same with a random Burnout for example.

To me personally GT is a mature game because it manages to express the love for cars and driving more than every other racing game has ever done.

Does this mean that GT is better than simulators like rFactor or the next Project Cars? Not at all. Mature game doesn't mean better to me, it just means that devs has used the tools they had with mastery to create something that's a little more than the piece of software we're used to and this applies to every genre.
 
I agree with the rest of your post and your analysis of themes story and direction etc, but I have an issue with this. Most games do have stories and themes worth analyzing. But how then would you take games like Gran Turismo which seem to be fundamentally about complex and detailed mechanics?

Games that do not have story or themes that they want to convey shouldn't be even considered when talking about maturity. Maturity is a psychological/social concept so in games that deal with mechanics and working order of technology at its most basic function there is no concept of mature or immature. The only catch here is if it is dealt with in a realistic manner.

A racing game that ignores the laws of physics and is an artistic take on a racing medium can be judged on its presentation because when it comes to appeal, you can tell when it is aimed to attract a specific demographic. So the focus wouldn't be on content exactly but maturity level of design.
 

soy.

Banned
I must have missed the part of this thread where someone said NMH is "a stupid kiddie game." Could you point me to this thread?

Or were you just making crap up?
well actually i'm not referring to this thread when i'm saying that
but i'm not making crap up either. while of course i can't prove it, that's what i saw out there: everytime i brought up NMH on some "mature" discussions, people would diss it for no real reason; just because it's nintendo exclusive

i recognize that people in gaf are as reasonable as gamers gets. but yeah, that's how it is out there: if it's nintendo, then it couldn't be mature
for me, they invented the term "mature" to exclude nintendo games
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
A game that really respects the player and allows for player choice and failure (could be dialog or gameplay). KOTOR, Dark Souls, and New Vegas are all great examples.

That doesn't mean that I automatically consider linear games to be immature. Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory is a great example of a mostly linear game that gives players multiple options and the ability to fail lots of objectives while still progressing through the story. And failure on one level might change how another goes (even if it's just minor).
 

DevilFox

Member
Miyamoto's thread about his interview reminded me of this thread. What I said here expresses why I disagree so much with his opinion.

Anyway, I'd just like to share THIS article about Narrative. It has a lot to do with my definition of mature games, but I'm less strict. Have a good read.
 
What a good question with many valid answers.

I will have a spin on it too:

Let me start with what I think doesn't constitute as an indicator:
Rating systems with their arbitary numbers. Every human being develops different and can handle certain types of content at different times in their life. Some people should maybe never play certain types of games (like horror for example).
These ratings are only a mere scapegoat for lazy parents.
Though I do realise that in the real world a parent can't possibly check every media his kid wants to consume, so it's a necesary evil of a imperfect world.

Next: Story and/or Narrative don't mean anything. There hasn't be a single video game that truly told a great story and I don't think this medium is suited to do so anyways.
FYI: I don't consider VN true videogames, they are closer to books. The same goes for RPGs where most titles have brain dead combat systems.
Yes the line between interactive expierence and videogame is murky and subject of much debate, but just ignore that for the time being.

So now what is an mature game then?
A game that respects the player and recognizes him as a human being. Willing to learn, curious and playfull, being able to recognize patterns and reward dedicated practice with awesome results.
Or in another words the antithesis to modern AAA gaming where everything is spoonfeed to the player, the most obvious things shoved in your face (example: you are to stupid to navigate this 3D enviroment, just follow this line) and instant gratification is king(example: bar filling, you didn't get any better but here is exp with whom you unlock better weapons anyways).

So what I'm saying: Megaman 2 is a mature game, Volgar the viking, all good fighting games, good shmups and many more while GTA, AssCreed, Battelfield and Uncharted are for "spoiled brats".

There will probably not be many people who agree with this, but thats fine.
If you play Uncharted or whatever for the story more power to you, no need to be offended by some random assholes opinion.
 

Voliko

Member
Not games with so-called "mature themes." Any game that has a narrative and it takes itself seriously is 99.99% of the time is not mature. Games with deep gameplay mechanics and thoughtful, purposeful design are mature to me.

Next: Story and/or Narrative don't mean anything. There hasn't be a single video game that truly told a great story and I don't think this medium is suited to do so anyways.
FYI: I don't consider VN true videogames, they are closer to books. The same goes for RPGs where most titles have brain dead combat systems.
Yes the line between interactive expierence and videogame is murky and subject of much debate, but just ignore that for the time being.

So now what is an mature game then?
A game that respects the player and recognizes him as a human being. Willing to learn, curious and playfull, being able to recognize patterns and reward dedicated practice with awesome results.
Or in another words the antithesis to modern AAA gaming where everything is spoonfeed to the player, the most obvious things shoved in your face (example: you are to stupid to navigate this 3D enviroment, just follow this line) and instant gratification is king(example: bar filling, you didn't get any better but here is exp with whom you unlock better weapons anyways).

So what I'm saying: Megaman 2 is a mature game, Volgar the viking, all good fighting games, good shmups and many more while GTA, AssCreed, Battelfield and Uncharted are for "spoiled brats".

There will probably not be many people who agree with this, but thats fine.
If you play Uncharted or whatever for the story more power to you, no need to be offended by some random assholes opinion.

This guy gets it. Super Hang On, Castlevania 3, any thoughtful shmup or fighter, God Hand, Vanquish, etc, these are mature games. I think some VNs can certainly be mature but I definitely don't classify them as videogames either.
 

Ansatz

Member
So now what is an mature game then?
A game that respects the player and recognizes him as a human being. Willing to learn, curious and playfull, being able to recognize patterns and reward dedicated practice with awesome results.
Or in another words the antithesis to modern AAA gaming where everything is spoonfeed to the player, the most obvious things shoved in your face (example: you are to stupid to navigate this 3D enviroment, just follow this line) and instant gratification is king(example: bar filling, you didn't get any better but here is exp with whom you unlock better weapons anyways).

So what I'm saying: Megaman 2 is a mature game, Volgar the viking, all good fighting games, good shmups and many more while GTA, AssCreed, Battelfield and Uncharted are for "spoiled brats"

This is how I would describe maturity in terms of game design.

It also feels like many developers think in terms of "wouldn't it be great if you could do ___ in a game?" then proceeds to best translate it into a video game. Many times the idea is too ambitious or too complex and ends up being a mess.

For example who would sit at a cafe thinking "man it would be sweet to have a platformer with monkeys who can perform a physically impossible roll mid-air" no it's not how gaming works. Some brilliant mind came up with the idea because it added depth and challenge to the level design, and also originality. Nobody asked for a game with monkeys that can roll mid-air, but it ended up being something fun and clever in the context of a video game.
 

Zukuu

Banned
To me, mature is something that doesn't pretend you're an idiot - both, gameplay-wise and story-wise. Dark Souls for instance is a mature game, just like the Witcher.
 

DevilFox

Member
What a good question with many valid answers.

I will have a spin on it too:

Let me start with what I think doesn't constitute as an indicator:
Rating systems with their arbitary numbers. Every human being develops different and can handle certain types of content at different times in their life. Some people should maybe never play certain types of games (like horror for example).
These ratings are only a mere scapegoat for lazy parents.
Though I do realise that in the real world a parent can't possibly check every media his kid wants to consume, so it's a necesary evil of a imperfect world.

Next: Story and/or Narrative don't mean anything. There hasn't be a single video game that truly told a great story and I don't think this medium is suited to do so anyways.
FYI: I don't consider VN true videogames, they are closer to books. The same goes for RPGs where most titles have brain dead combat systems.
Yes the line between interactive expierence and videogame is murky and subject of much debate, but just ignore that for the time being.

So now what is an mature game then?
A game that respects the player and recognizes him as a human being. Willing to learn, curious and playfull, being able to recognize patterns and reward dedicated practice with awesome results.
Or in another words the antithesis to modern AAA gaming where everything is spoonfeed to the player, the most obvious things shoved in your face (example: you are to stupid to navigate this 3D enviroment, just follow this line) and instant gratification is king(example: bar filling, you didn't get any better but here is exp with whom you unlock better weapons anyways).

So what I'm saying: Megaman 2 is a mature game, Volgar the viking, all good fighting games, good shmups and many more while GTA, AssCreed, Battelfield and Uncharted are for "spoiled brats".

There will probably not be many people who agree with this, but thats fine.
If you play Uncharted or whatever for the story more power to you, no need to be offended by some random assholes opinion.

So, basically, old school gameplay and "progression methods" are everything.
This is indeed important, but isn't it limited compared to the potential? What if a game succeeds to have what you say and also an extraordinary surround?
Are all these AAA devs going in the wrong direction or they're walking a path that can eventually take the medium to something bigger, richer and more mature?
 
The Last of Us is mature. Not just because of its imagery, but because of the tone and style and presentation.

Heavy Rain is a mature game, again because of the themes and ideas it explores, even though it doesn't have much gore.

Mortal Kombat, on the other hand, is not a mature game. It's ridiculous, over-sexualised, comical and has absolutely no subtlety or restraint. Although it has a lot of violence and gore, due to the way these things are presented it's completely immature and juvenile.
 

Mazzo

Member
I guess it's all about the target audience. A mature game tries to appeal to sensibilities commonly acquired with age, and respects the intelligence of the player. It's certainly not about blood or sex to me.
 
The concept of maturity is just an excuse for people to write off something they don't like without further thought. There are no "mature" or "immature" games, there are different aspects of a game, and I have my preferences to which aspects I care for and which I don't.
 

lyrick

Member
I don't think one exists.

I've played a lot of games that features content that should be restricted to audiences "mature" enough due to graphic imagery, violence and sexual tones.

I have not played a game that requires a mature mind to solve problems using knowledge and experience gained through ones lifetime, nor have I played a game that requires a mature mind to comprehend the issues presented to the player in game.

The ESRB made a terrific marketing move by branding games that feature content featuring restricted content as Mature, it essentially turned what should have been a warning label into a marketing mechanic.
 

Joohanh

Member
The problem with 'mature' in videogames is that the reference of the word is remarkably close to that of 'fucking boring'.

Every game that tries to deal with SERIOUS ADULT STUFF just for the sake of it simply fails.
 

Vitten

Member
A game that doesn't treat the player like and idiot and demands some intelligence and experience to be appreciated. A game like Demon's Souls for instance :)
 

elhav

Member
Games that treat the players like thinking adults. You don't even have to be an adult to play them, you just have to be mature enough to understand some of the things yourself.

Gore, violence, and cursing aren't really what makes a game mature. It exists in both mature and immature games.

Though not all games try to be.
 
The Last of Us is no more mature than Gears of War to me. They are both comparable to a B-Movie. Zombies and space aliens aren't particularly mature as far as I'm concerned.

For me, a mature game would be something like Civilization or Total War. These are deep games that are not trashy or schlocky. I can't think of many AAA story-led games that I'd describe as mature.
 

Laconic

Banned
Considering what passes for being a mature, thoughtful adult these days...

...did Con Air get a quick and dirty licensed game themed after it?
 
So, basically, old school gameplay and "progression methods" are everything.
This is indeed important, but isn't it limited compared to the potential? What if a game succeeds to have what you say and also an extraordinary surround?
Are all these AAA devs going in the wrong direction or they're walking a path that can eventually take the medium to something bigger, richer and more mature?

Well I dont think they are going in the wrong direction, they sell lots of their games and making profit is the reason they exist. It's like fastfood in that sense.

Is it limiting their potential? I really dont know, but I never played a game which wants me to expierence a meaningfull story that I enjoyed.
For example let's look at something beloved like TLOU. Did this really benefited from being a game?
All I think is they should have told the story through a movie, instead of ugly realtime graphics. It works as a game sure, but wouldn't another medium deliver a superior expirence?

It's also my own fault in which I approach a videogame compared to other noninteractive media. When watching a series I feel like: "Hey lets look at these characters, what they are about and what they are up to", but when I play a game then the protagonist is just me, my avatar.
No game ever succeded in making me care about the character behind that.
A more concrete example: When I have the power of interactivity I want a survival game that challenges my reflexes, spartial thinking and resource managment and not a story about some guy and his daughter disrupted by pretty much trivial gameplay. I'd much rather read/watch the waling dead instead.
Can we really have both? Wouldn't the narrative break down if you give the player the options necessary to deal with more evolved gameplay? Like what if I want to shoot the daughter, one less mouth to feed afterall?
 

am_dragon

Member
The use of "mature" requires context.

Mature adj. of software - fully developed, with little potential for improvement.
This definition is frequently used in software development, however it's possible to relate this to types of games like racing, fighting, RPG games using standard control practices, match making, or inventory / item management that could be considered mature under this definition.

Mature adj. of the player - fully developed physically; full-grown.
This definition would relate to the M-17 sticker and the products intended audience. Don't forget that sticker refers to the player not the game. A mature consumer should know how to deal with the contents of the game appropriately.

Mature is also used to define content, but it's often a misnomer when related to games. Calling a games content "mature" because it contains sexual innuendo, gore, drugs, alcohol or profanity confuses the meaning of the word. Content Intended for Mature Audiences, not mature content.

Classifying content as "mature" is more subjective than classifying a human being as mature. In my opinion it's much more effective to call content out by type, as noted above. I feel like my 11 year old is responsible enough, to deal with much of the the content in many 1st person shooters, however I do not want him hearing the profanity in most of those games. My son has a certain level of maturity that can be judged against a games content.

As a parent the ESRB ratings are mostly useless. Parents that don't care, won't bat an eye, parents that do care about ratings, but don't research don't get enough information to make an educated decision.

As a father, and gamer there are really only a few things I keep my kids from, sex, profanity and something I think of as strong iconography, blood covered crosses, pentagrams, graphic set pieces. Of those things my kids are prevented from playing games they want to play by profanity more than anything else.... Seriously Goat Simulator my son would love you...
 

JaseMath

Member
A game that kids probably shouldn't play is a "mature" game. There's no hard and fast rules...parents need to empower themselves–learn about games before purchasing.
 

Bl@de

Member
Something that goes beyond the knowledge of kids. Something like Europa Universalis. Also games like EVE Online. That's a "mature game"

Of course porn would also fit the adult theme. But nobody really picked up on the hitclassic ATARI Porn.
 
Considering what passes for being a mature, thoughtful adult these days...

...did Con Air get a quick and dirty licensed game themed after it?
Themes that are inappropriate for children.
A game that kids probably shouldn't play is a "mature" game. There's no hard and fast rules...parents need to empower themselves–learn about games before purchasing.
Yup. It's relatively pretty simple. Mature has a meaning and in the case of a game, it really means inappropriate for kids.
 

Mexen

Member
Mature games mostly have to do with how a theme is presented as opposed to what it is. Advance Wars fails as a mature game to me despite being about war, destruction, sabotage etc. But CoD qualifies as a mature game. That's just me. Maybe someone out there based a real life mission on Max Power.
 

BWJinxing

Member
I define mature games as games that have or be gritty or dark. They dont come off as happy and disney like.

Heavy Rain, Mass Effect 1, The Last of Us

Thats what comes to mind.
 

DevilFox

Member
Well I dont think they are going in the wrong direction, they sell lots of their games and making profit is the reason they exist. It's like fastfood in that sense.

Is it limiting their potential? I really dont know, but I never played a game which wants me to expierence a meaningfull story that I enjoyed.
For example let's look at something beloved like TLOU. Did this really benefited from being a game?
All I think is they should have told the story through a movie, instead of ugly realtime graphics. It works as a game sure, but wouldn't another medium deliver a superior expirence?

It's also my own fault in which I approach a videogame compared to other noninteractive media. When watching a series I feel like: "Hey lets look at these characters, what they are about and what they are up to", but when I play a game then the protagonist is just me, my avatar.
No game ever succeded in making me care about the character behind that.

My opinion? Hell no! This is the main reason I mentioned TLOU among many others as an example of mature game, in the previous page.
You, indeed, approach videogames and noninteractive media differently than me, I do the opposite. I try to leave myself get into the story and the characters of every game I play, I try as much as I can (and I succeed if the game helps me...) and I don't think "the protagonist is just me, my avatar", I think "omg this is awesome, I feel so much like *character* right now".
While watching a series, I feel like "oh right, these guys again, I wonder what they're up to *yawn* ", which means that I keep my distance and not voluntarily. It's very hard to get involved because I'm just watching passively, it's a given fact and this is why a movie like Now You See Me managed to play me so easily (and this is why I love it, an example of mature movie to me).
Playing TLOU means creating a link with Ellie through Joel, without this link there is a lot that I'd miss and that's what would happen if TLOU was a movie.
Same goes for many others game: Bioshock's "revelations" work because they're NOT a movie. MGS3 worked because it's NOT a movie, they all know their nature of games and they all got the potential out of this.

A more concrete example: When I have the power of interactivity I want a survival game that challenges my reflexes, spartial thinking and resource managment and not a story about some guy and his daughter disrupted by pretty much trivial gameplay. I'd much rather read/watch the waling dead instead.
Can we really have both? Wouldn't the narrative break down if you give the player the options necessary to deal with more evolved gameplay? Like what if I want to shoot the daughter, one less mouth to feed afterall?

That would be great but it raises a problem that no other medium has: how can they do that while keeping it playable? Unfortunately or fortunately for us, gaming is directly connected with tech, it's not just a matter of writing or rolling a camera and rendering some CG.
Let's take your example: you kill the daughter, fine.. now what? The game must go on I guess, but what if the daughter had an important role? You can't cut it out of the game, so they could make the daughter a useless characters (bad decision) or they could program and write a totally different version of the story which is easy to say but not to do.
There're games that give you more freedom, like Fallout, but there's a reason if your kills don't influence the path of the story that deeply (it can become slightly different but that's all).
Another example, Heavy Rain or Beyond. No matter how many people you lose, story is going in one single direction even if with 20+ (slightly) different paths. Limits are always there, story can't be procedurally written like levels after all.
What you're asking for, then, is a game without story or something like DayZ, correct me if I'm wrong.

This GamesRadar article is a good place to start.

Good reading, thanks!
 
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