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[Biker19]

It's probably because gamers expect a certain levl of triple (of course that expectation comes down often due to publishers), If after a year or two has passed and that standard isn't met then it's a wasted investment, so the company invests more in order to reach that quality, or surpass this.

If mid tier games actually sold well we wouldn't have this problem to such a degree.

For the big publishers (EA, Ubisoft, Acti), they couldn't wait because it meant that mid-tier publishers and developers wouldn't be able to follow. They raised the budget ceiling so high that it lead to a whole bunch of developers dying, and with them in control of the market.

Problem is, now this big budget arms race and gamer expectations have spiraled out of their control and it's affecting them too. And it's mostly their fault.

Which is why it's the gamers fault that mid-tier games sell so poorly, because they expect too much out of them. As a matter of fact, they're so much better in quality than most AAA games today (same with indie games & smaller games from XBLA/PSN/Steam like Double Dragon Neon & Bionic Commando: Rearmed).

They wanted AAA games, now they got them. And now that market is about to collapse even further this gen, especially if Microsoft can't get more Xbox One systems to sell.

 

[dragonbane]

From what we can tell, 4 million is not up to expectations. I think the expectations which need to be adjusted here are yours; for a AAA game in 2013 -- particularly one with a long development cycle -- 4 Million in sales is simply not sufficient.

Well that depends on what you define as AAA. Is Uncharted 2 and Heavy Rain AAA? Because they both cost about $20 million only and Heavy Rain ended up generating at least $100 million in profit despite only selling 3 million copies in 3 years. The team was 150+ for 3 years plus another year of pre-production with a smaller team. France has pretty high labour costs too. Now, multi-platform development is a lot more expensive of course and likely operates with different standards. We need to make that distinction though, because both are still AAA.

Also a lot of studios just seem badly managed.

Sony, Hire Levin. Also Molyneux. Make them work with Cage. In the same room. With knives hidden. film that.

Jesus Christ. Molyneux loves Cage though, so they would probably gang up on Levine. Poor guy. Never stood a chance lol

 

[jim-jam bongs]

System Shock 2 had a budget of $1.7m and it's better than any game from the past 5 years. Ken is moving on to greater things.

 

[CrackPebbles]

JP from Platinum just tweeted this:

https://twitter.com/PG_jp/status/435905181251690496

Yo wtf

Don't get your irrational in my Platinum, that sounds weird as fuck.

 

[Skilotonn]

That is just terrible to read.

BioShock is one of my favorite new IP's of last gen, and just one of mt favorites series of all time. I really don't know how it's going to be with another team taking over BioShock now. Such a shame.

This reminds me that I'm still at the very end of BioShock 2, I still have Minerva's Den to even start after I beat BioShock 2, and I have BioShock Infinite still sealed to play once I beat all of those.

I guess that despite them being active for 17 years, it may be a consequence of being able to buy the limited collector's edition of BioShock for 20 and the LE of BioShock Infinite for 30 not long after launch for both. I still remember playing the demo of BioShock 1 the day before release to make me buy the Limited Edition on day one.

 

[maniac-kun]

Seems like he had the same issue with those AAA games that i have. There was a backlash for Bioshock Infinite where we thought. Awesome atmospere and we loved the flying city stuff but its the wrong genre for this game.

Maybe it wasnt possible in the AAA evironment to do something radicaly different. They sell us the same games over and over again with new skins / models maps. But the gameplay is always the same.

 

[Saty]

Give Bioshock to R*. Bisohock: Columbia City.

 

[NinjaFridge]

Wow, surprising. Feel bad for all those people let go. Like others here have said, I imagine this (letting everyone go) was a T2 decision more than anything.

Ah, even though some people had issue with the Bioshock games, I thought they were quite good, and I'll miss them. I'll still keep an eye out for the new Bioshock games though. I ended up liking Bioshock 2 well enough.

Minervas Den was fantastic

 

[Just_myles]

Well it doesn't have to be personal. This sounds like a business decision. In this life, nobody is owed anything, especially a job. None of us are exempt from this.

 

[Ranger Taffles]

This is terrible news to wake up to. I admired all of their IPs and this is a little hard to digest now. I wish everyone the best of luck for the future, damn sad though.

 

[RustyNails]

Long story short, is this because their games didnt perform well?

 

[Abel_Nightroad]

SSM tweeted this:

https://twitter.com/sonysantamonica/status/435909708193341440

 

[foxtrot3d]

System Shock 2 had a budget of $1.7m and it's better than any game from the past 5 years. Ken is moving on to greater things.

That's my feeling as well, I just hope the production value of his next game isnt shit. I don't want a small KS style game, I want another SS2. And I mean that in terms of quality and production value (ie not a small budget game) not that I want another System Shock (it would be nice) but I would like to see Levine try something different.

 

[Phatosaurus]

Yo wtf

Don't get your irrational in my Platinum, that sounds weird as fuck.

No keep those highly talented artists from Irrational away from Platinum and their cuhrayzee action games, that could never turn out well!

/s

 

[Marjar]

Well damn, glad to see so many studios have open arms for these devs. It's rather touching, really.

 

[Blastoise]

His letter comes off really selfish. Hopefully everyone involved, including Ken, has a happy ending.

 

[Persona7]

That sucks.

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

Well damn, glad to see so many studios have open arms for these devs. It's rather touching, really.

Yep, it's really nice to see other studios circle the wagons and try and help these guys out. Just got finished watching the stream GiantBomb did on the news and I have to give respect to Alex Navarro for really pushing the fact that this announcement means 200 people are out of jobs immediately.

Perhaps it's because I follow the industry so closely but when Levine states he wants to be closer to the fans and all that jazz, I just think "Don't bin 200 staff with zero notice then". It's definitely tainted my opinion of him. Entire thing has bummed me out for the day really. Such a sad situation. Can't think what it'd be like to give your heart and soul to a project for years to then suddenly be told you're essentially out on your ass...

 

[Guhnmystro]

Damn, my brother worked there. Just had a kid too.

 

[Nirolak]

But if you're not in hotspots like that, how do you run the AAA hiring spree/firing spree cycle?

Montreal, Seattle, 1+ hour away suburbs, or similar.

 

[Leb]

Well, if this is taken at face value, I suppose it kind of makes sense given all the staff turnover during the last 9 months of BI's development and the fact that in interviews, Ken always seemed super passionate about an entirely different kind of game; games with a strong focus on systems mechanics like X-COM: EU and Unity of Command.

Of course, taken at less than face value, seriously, what in the everliving fuck?!

I mean, what? Dammit.

 

[Nirolak]

Infinite's budget was $100 million or something. The game sold 4-5 million, right? My math sucks, but doesn't that mean they did somewhat decently? No massive losses, that is. Did they seriously expect to sell 10+ million copies? Why the hell was the budget so high?

It's like Tomb Raider. $100 million budget, 4-5 million sales -> disappointment.

It depends on average selling price and opportunity cost.

 

[Gannd]

I suppose it's good for the industry to put 100+ talented individuals in limbo as well?

Yes. The industry is in flux and cannot support the old AAA model. Sometimes layoffs are necessary.

 

[Dragon Puncher]

This shit is crazy.. I'm not the biggest Irrational fan, but I really wanted to see what they could do with next gen hardware. A damn shame.

 

[Syph Medwes]

Holy crap that's insane. Best of luck to everyone.

 

[The perfect Dark]

I'm glad I bought all three Bioshock games again last week. Replaying Bioshock 1 right now and it's still a masterpiece. Really sad news. Bioshock will never be the same....

 

[Stripper13]

Awful news. I'm currently progressing through Bioshock Infinite and while it certainly it has some issues. I'm not sure any developer has been able to craft worlds as interesting and unique as the Bioshock games.

Great to see some high calibur studios publicly reaching out to the Irrational team seeking jobs. Sometimes this industry is really, really cool.

 

[Nzyme32]

The problem is the ''thirst'' that gamers have for bigger and better experiences. Look at a lot of the sentiment on this board, we're already mentioning droughts and such. Also although the PS4 is positioning itself as an indie machine, I'm sure many PS4 gamers won't be happy with only indie experiences.

This is a massive problem though. Most people buying these consoles are looking for that experience. Their gaming experience is based around franchises that are well known to them and nothing more.

Perhaps the problem is curating a player base of people that are not really interested in exploring the medium. You can see it in music and it's destroying the music labels as they fail to adapt to the changes. There are an increasing amount of people exploring new music through services that simplify that discovery of content. Meanwhile, there is an ever reducing amount of people willing to follow traditional pop music labels and grandiose marketing. I'd argue the same is true with televison with the netflix revolution and probably film.

Gaming is even worse, as it is an inherently digital product that is gradually turning into an ever evolving product. Again, failing to adapt to that is going to be devastating, and movements towards iterative long term "games as a service" with constant addition of value, appears to be cheaper and more successful for smaller teams.

Welcome to the post internet world, evolve or collapse

 

[dermannmitdemcolt]

One of the more creative western developers dead and almost all of the once great japanese giants in shambles....not a great time to be a gamer...

Where is the hope?

 

[NoPiece]

Well that depends on what you define as AAA. Is Uncharted 2 and Heavy Rain AAA? Because they both cost about $20 million only and Heavy Rain ended up generating at least $100 million in profit despite only selling 3 million copies in 3 years. The team was 150+ for 3 years plus another year of pre-production with a smaller team. France has pretty high labour costs too. Now, multi-platform development is a lot more expensive of course and likely operates with different standards. We need to make that distinction though, because both are still AAA.

Also a lot of studios just seem badly managed.

Heavy Rain had a smaller budget, but they have been really open about how they outsourced a lot to keep their costs down. Same with Naughty Dog - Last of Us outsourced a lot to China.

But to outsource effectively, you need even better management than normal, so I think you are right in pointing out that a lot of studios are poorly managed (or have publishers that inflict poor management on them).

 

[Thundercleese]

33 minutes by Giantbomb on Youtube - Let's Talk About Irrational Games Closing

Edit: I said something mean, removing it.

 

[Gannd]

Heavy Rain had a smaller budget, but they have been really open about how they outsourced a lot to keep their costs down. Same with Naughty Dog - Last of Us outsourced a lot to China.

But to outsource effectively, you need even better management than normal, so I think you are right in pointing out that a lot of studios are poorly managed (or have publishers that inflict poor management on them).

I don't trust any "budget" figures unless it has been independently audited or is said in part of a official business statement. Companies fudge the numbers a lot of the time by ignoring costs associated with development. Don't trust unless it's been verified.

 

[AkuMifune]

Is there a version of this without Alex?

Alex is what saves it.

 

[Thundercleese]

Alex is what saves it.

Disagree, but my comment was unnecessary. Edited.

 

[Messofanego]

"The few news posts I've seen about Irrational so far spend like 1 paragraph on ppl losing jobs and 4+ on What Levine Is Doing Next."

Feels weird that gaming journalists care more about Levine's next game than the 100s of people who lost their jobs.

 

[.la1n]

It's really nice to see other studios reaching out to those who had were unfortunate to lose their jobs. Wish we could see more of this from other industries. PlatinumGames did the same thing when the guys at Vigil games were jobless.

 

[Pyronite]

The game industry is full of people who know nothing about the game industry but have money / business degrees trying to abuse it and things like government funding, tax breaks and other things in order to make money.

I've worked with a ton of people in the game industry who were incredibly professional and knowledgeable about what they do. I'm not sure people on forums with gaming hobbies are really the ones to judge the machinations of publishers and developers.

 

[dragonbane]

Heavy Rain had a smaller budget, but they have been really open about how they outsourced a lot to keep their costs down. Same with Naughty Dog - Last of Us outsourced a lot to China.

But to outsource effectively, you need even better management than normal, so I think you are right in pointing out that a lot of studios are poorly managed (or have publishers that inflict poor management on them).

Sounds about right. Outsourcing was a big part of it definitely. Also probably not a high turnover rate with the leads and senior staff, most of them work there since 2005. So good management definitely saved them a lot of money, even with a team of 150.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

It's really nice to see other studios reaching out to those who had were unfortunate to lose their jobs. Wish we could see more of this from other industries. PlatinumGames did the same thing when the guys at Vigil games were jobless.

If I remember right, Sony Santa Monica and Crytek did too. Most of them are in Crytek I think.

 

[A Serious Man]

Insane. I hope everyone lands on their feet.

 

[Nome]

"The few news posts I've seen about Irrational so far spend like 1 paragraph on ppl losing jobs and 4+ on What Levine Is Doing Next."

Feels weird that gaming journalists care more about Levine's next game than the 100s of people who lost their jobs.

Not terribly surprised, as that's what has an impact on your average gamer.
I'm sure a pedigree at Irrational will keep doors open for the unfortunate folks though.

 

[FaintDeftone]

Sucks, but I'm more concerned about the folks laid off. Hopefully they'll find work quickly. Good to see the company is doing a lot to help them.

Poor Shawn Elliot, ships one game and gets the boot. I'm sure the experience he earned will land him a sweet gig, though.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

All the best to the employees, hope you get something sorted asap

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

"The few news posts I've seen about Irrational so far spend like 1 paragraph on ppl losing jobs and 4+ on What Levine Is Doing Next."

Feels weird that gaming journalists care more about Levine's next game than the 100s of people who lost their jobs.

That's exactly it. Leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. Levine has essentially thrown his team to the wolves whilst keeping his corporate sponsor. If he wanted to go indie he should have straight up quit. What comes next for the studio then is on take two. As a founder of irrational with a responsibility to his employees the fact he's basically binned 95% of his team whilst keeping himself and a small coven secure seems really shady to me.

 

[dragonbane]

I don't trust any "budget" figures unless it has been independently audited or is said in part of a official business statement. Companies fudge the numbers a lot of the time by ignoring costs associated with development. Don't trust unless it's been verified.

It was an official presentation by the CFO and he broke down development, distribution and marketing costs, team size, development length, sales and profit. Not sure which costs he could have ignored. QD was always pretty open with their financial side and I see no reason why he should be lying in that instance.

You never know for sure of course, but I trust the presented numbers in this case.

 

[Curufinwe]

"The few news posts I've seen about Irrational so far spend like 1 paragraph on ppl losing jobs and 4+ on What Levine Is Doing Next."

Feels weird that gaming journalists care more about Levine's next game than the 100s of people who lost their jobs.

They should. So should gamers.

Levine is in no way morally obligated to spend his life making AAA Bioshock games just because a lot of other people would work on them.

 

[GitarooMan]

This is really just sad for me. Obviously for the jobs lost first, and all that talent being split up. Bioshock Infinite is one of all-time favorite games, and to think that talented group is not creating games anymore is really depressing. I wish everyone there the best, and they should all be really proud of the work they did.

 

[JohnyRL]

Oh shit...

 

[Gannd]

It was an official presentation by the CFO and he broke down development, distribution and marketing costs, team size, development length, sales and profit. Not sure which costs he could have ignored. QD was always pretty open with their financial side and I see no reason why he should be lying in that instance.

You never know for sure of course, but I trust the presented numbers in this case.

I'm just saying that as an accountant unless something is independently audited we really shouldn't trust it. Companies fudge this stuff all the time. I'm not saying they were in this instance just that I wouldn't put too much weight behind it. I also think that, in general, QD is more of an outlier in that respected.

 

[Dany]

They should. So should gamers.

Levine is in no way morally obligated to spend his life making AAA Bioshock games just because a lot of other people would work on them.

What came first?

Levine leaving and take2 dissolving irrational?
or take2 dissolving irrational and then levine leaving?