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Dark Souls II - First review

P

Psycho_Mantis

Banned
Deified Data said:
Warping in DSII will be just like using the archstones from Demon's, wait and see. It makes too much sense to not be true. I'm not a fan of respec either but if there's one thing I'm sure From will get right it's warping.
Click to expand...

I think there is only going to warping to a few select bonfires and they will be spread out more.
 
L

LegendofLex

Member
Psycho_Mantis said:
Thats because in other rpgs your damage output relies on your level. In Souls, only scaling weapons rely on levels for damage outputs. Elementals mean you can have high dmg output at low levels. Its not because DS requires more skill and less emphasis on grinding (titanite slab for instance).
Click to expand...

If it sounded like I was implying this, I apologize.

Dark Souls is just like any other RPG in that if you aren't good enough, you can make it easier by grinding (for SL, gear, materials, etc.).
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
Backtracking through the world to just get to a merchant in Dark Souls was just an annoyance that made it feel like a step back from Demon's to me, so on a conceptual level I'm a fan of this sort of blend of the two where you have the free warping found in Demon's with the contiguous world of Dark.

LegendofLex said:
Getting stuck and being unable to progress is one thing. Enough people do SL1 runs that it's obvious this game was designed to be conquered through skill. As in any other RPG ever, grinding is a way to make up for any deficiencies in skill.

So if you're stuck, it's because you lack the skill needed to get through the game at your current power level - the solution is, of course, to muster up the difference in skill or continue fighting weaker foes to boost your power. And of course to grind effectively requires an appropriate measure of lower-level skill. In either of these cases, the game requires that you prove your skill to earn the right to progress.

Respeccing is a very different case. You've already done the work to boost your power - now you're merely deciding that you'd like to try a different approach to using your character. Deciding that "well, the player should be locked into whatever stats they already have" is really just arbitrary. The player being able to adapt his/her solution with the resources (in this case, soul level) he/she has already earned is perfectly appropriate within the "use your skills to progress" formula. There's really no reason to force the player to jump through additional hoops just for the sake of adding friction.

It's not as though respeccing suddenly turns a SL30 character into a SL60 character. The player still has to earn the right to whatever power level he/she has reached - only now the player has more freedom to allocate that power level as he/she sees fit. And it's not an unlimited capability, either - the player still has to manage the respecs by earning whatever item is required to perform it.

I don't see how this disrupts the merit-based progression system that's already in place. It's just another option available to players for advancing through the game.

And to say that this will negatively impact PvP is just laughable. You're either prepared for human opponents, or you're not.
Click to expand...
That's pretty much my thought on the matter.
 
V

VandalD

Member
jimi_dini said:
Managing to get to the Tomb Of Giants in Dark Souls 1 without having the ability to warp -> you had to get out of there by yourself, which was quite difficult, especially without a lamp. It happened to me, but in retrospect it was awesome. If Dark Souls 1 would have had warping right from the start, this difficult situation would not have happened to anyone.
Click to expand...
If Dark Souls had warping from the start, you'd still have to get there yourself with no warping, as you can't warp to bonfires you haven't been to yet. Is Dark Souls 2 changing this?
 
H

H3avyM3tal

Banned
jimi_dini said:
but that's exactly the case. Warping around right from the start will make it easier. You call that more accessible, I call it making the game easier at the same time.

Managing to get to the Tomb Of Giants in Dark Souls 1 without having the ability to warp -> you had to get out of there by yourself, which was quite difficult, especially without a lamp. It happened to me, but in retrospect it was awesome. If Dark Souls 1 would have had warping right from the start, this difficult situation would not have happened to anyone.
Click to expand...

DeS had warping from the get go. You only needed to unlock it first. Why is that so bad?
In Dark Souls don't need to warp to get to places. It just helped you with needless running across the vast world.

Also, the ToG is not the only place in Dark Souls, and its not reflecting on it in any way. Infact, its an exception to the game. Stop countering one feature with ONE place from a PREVIOUS game.
 
J

jimi_dini

Member
VandalD said:
If Dark Souls had warping from the start, you'd still have to get there yourself with no warping, as you can't warp to bonfires you haven't been to yet. Is Dark Souls 2 changing this?
Click to expand...

Hmm?
I was talking about warping out of Tomb Of Giants. I'm not talking about warping to Tomb Of Giants.
 
V

VandalD

Member
jimi_dini said:
Hmm?
I was talking about warping out of Tomb Of Giants. I'm not talking about warping to Tomb Of Giants.
Click to expand...
Oh, I see. Sorry about that. I guess I never thought of that because I never went to even the catacombs without having gone to Anor Londo first. Would have sucked to have gotten two bonfires into Tomb of the Giants only to hit that fog brick wall and have to get all the way back out.
 
U

uomoartificiale

Member
I understand that a discussion about warping and respec'ng will be of any importance AFTER the game is out and everybody can check the real thing and make his own mind. Now there's just not enough information to make the discussion of any interest except for the paranoids who fear FROM is sabotaging his own game for the sake of selling a couple more copies.
Just take a deep breath, stop spamming the thread, then come back in a couple of weeks to discuss the topic in its own proper thread.
 
J

Jarsonot

Member
Principate said:
Couldn't they just have less bonfires. Don't really see the issue. New londo had like none. I'd imagine there's more area's like that.
Click to expand...

It'd be cool if there are a lot of bonfires, and you can warp to any of them, BUT you have to light it first, and there are limited items that will light the bonfire.

Then it would be risk/reward to push on as far as you can before wasting your precious item to light a bonfire. The further you can go, the more spread out and useful your warp points will be.

That would be awesome.

Like many have said, trust in From. I mean, go ahead and worry, but let's not start hating until we actually have the product.
 
U

Uthred

Member
Sanctuary said:
What bothers me is the potential for even more nonsense in the next Souls game if these "toned down" and "accessible" changes increase sales in any meaningful way.
Click to expand...

So you're bothered by something possibly occuring in a possible sequel based on something we know next to nothing about in the current game? Seems legit.

People going out of their way to upset themselves.
 
V

Vlade

Member
LegendofLex said:
Getting stuck and being unable to progress is one thing. Enough people do SL1 runs that it's obvious this game was designed to be conquered through skill. As in any other RPG ever, grinding is a way to make up for any deficiencies in skill.

So if you're stuck, it's because you lack the skill needed to get through the game at your current power level - the solution is, of course, to muster up the difference in skill or continue fighting weaker foes to boost your power. And of course to grind effectively requires an appropriate measure of lower-level skill. In either of these cases, the game requires that you prove your skill to earn the right to progress.

Respeccing is a very different case. You've already done the work to boost your power - now you're merely deciding that you'd like to try a different approach to using your character. Deciding that "well, the player should be locked into whatever stats they already have" is really just arbitrary. The player being able to adapt his/her solution with the resources (in this case, soul level) he/she has already earned is perfectly appropriate within the "use your skills to progress" formula. There's really no reason to force the player to jump through additional hoops just for the sake of adding friction.

It's not as though respeccing suddenly turns a SL30 character into a SL60 character. The player still has to earn the right to whatever power level he/she has reached - only now the player has more freedom to allocate that power level as he/she sees fit. And it's not an unlimited capability, either - the player still has to manage the respecs by earning whatever item is required to perform it.

I don't see how this disrupts the merit-based progression system that's already in place. It's just another option available to players for advancing through the game.

And to say that this will negatively impact PvP is just laughable. You're either prepared for human opponents, or you're not.
Click to expand...
Some segments are tough for melee, some for sorcery. Respeccing could be a crutch, an added tool for you to use. Just because I've earned my power level doesn't mean to me that I should simply be allowed to progress. Some games are about being able to plan your way through. I preferred the accomplishment of making my way through and making choices with incomplete info and making it work. I like that most people playing did it. I like that the rigid nature of the game makes for situations you have to play through... and again I like that we all did it.

Happy to read an opposing viewpoint too.
 
V

Vice

Member
jimi_dini said:
Like I already said before in this thread - this excuse is a terrible excuse.

All sorts of things in Souls could be considered grinding/time wasting. When you get killed by a boss, you also need to get through a bit of level again, there is no option to instantly retry. When you summoned people and get killed, you lose human form and can't instantly summon again. Oh noes, I have to get humanity to get back to human form, what a grind.
Click to expand...

It's a meaningless grind though that becomes second nature after investing enough time in the game. It's no more challenging then killing goblins in Final Fantasy to get 2000 gil for a steel sword. The grind is just padding if I've earned the levels and decide to change it's no problem and does not negatively impact the way others play the game.


There's also the possibility that by allowing for respecing From can tailor certain fights that force a player to learn,and exploit, the system or introduce an element that screws the player over if they've never learned how to master one style of fighting. The Souls games are good at introducing elements and punishing players for not learning them or relying on them while still allowing players to progress in their own way if they want. I would believe this is more likely than the game becoming an easier experience. A lack of grinding is not the same as a lack of challenge. it simply saves the player time and allows them to focus on progress rather than spending time killing mooks to grind out 5 more dex for their weapon.
 
Sanctuary

Sanctuary

Member
Hypron said:
Yeah. I mean, if people can do SL1 runs I don't see why you wouldn't be able to resist the temptation of respeccing.

I don't particularly like respeccing because I feel it cheapens the experience a bit, but I'll just not use it.

Anyway, I'm not really one to optimise my characters or anything. I really realised that a couple of weeks ago. I went to a friend's place and we decided to start new characters at the same time and play through the game side by side. He started by going around, getting lots of weapons and gear, looking up which stats he should increase... I just played all the way to the iron golem without even swapping weapons just by increasing whatever stats I needed. Having an overpowered character isn't particularly fun imo, flawed characters make the game more challenging and more interesting.
Click to expand...

Death leads to anger
Anger leads to hate
Hate leads to whining
Whining leads to less Dark Souls

Uthred said:
So you're bothered by something possibly occuring in a possible sequel based on something we know next to nothing about in the current game? Seems legit.

People going out of their way to upset themselves.
Click to expand...

Did you just start gaming in 2005 or something? Otherwise, you wouldn't make such ridiculous statements. Even for more recent examples, look at what happened to Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Dead Space, Bioshock, Diablo, Devil May Cry, Resident Evil and Final Fantasy.
 
R

Raitaro

Member
Since we seem to be suggesting OT titles between all the bickering ehh polite discussing, here are a few of mine:

Dark Souls II |OT| Where's Demon's Souls II Miyazaki?

or

Dark Souls II |OT| Now go back to work on Demon's Souls II Miyazaki

or

Dark Souls II |OT| The only dead ragdoll is you

or

Dark Souls II |OT| Hollow chest ahead

or

Dark Souls II |OT| Prepare to be invaded

or

Dark Souls II |OT| No rest for the Hollow

...

(Sigh, I guess I might not be cut out to come up with the most catching OT titles. By means of a meagre contribution apart from the above suggestions, I feel the OT should reflect one or more of these things: (a) people keep bringing up Demon's Souls II as well, (B) that there are no ragdoll bodies anymore, (C) that Dark Souls II seems to be more casual due to respeccing and fast travel, or (D) more unforgiving by contrast due to unsafe backstabs, hollow invasions)
 
S

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Dark Souls 2 ||OT|| We Didn't Ask For This

Dark Souls 2 ||OT|| Respec and thou shall be saved

Dark Souls 2 ||OT|| Say Hollow to the Casuals

I'm shit at this.
 
T

The Lamp

Member
I'm sorry, I can't follow pages upon pages of back and forth. Why exactly are people complaining? Did they design something that casualizes the game or something? Or are people jumping the gun again?
 
V

VandalD

Member
Dark Souls 2 ||OT|| It's the Dark Souls 2 of Dark Souls

The Lamp said:
I'm sorry, I can't follow pages upon pages of back and forth. Why exactly are people complaining? Did they design something that casualizes the game or something? Or are people jumping the gun again?
Click to expand...
People are voicing potential issues the game may have without having played it first. It's pretty typical when a developer mentions a game being more accessible. We'll just have to see how it turns out when we play it.
 
K

Kieli

Member
Dark Souls 2 |OT| Amazing Chest Ahead

Dark Souls 2 |OT| Sticky White Stuff

Dark Souls 2 |OT| Prepare to Casual (this one has probably been said)

Dark Souls 2 |OT| Emerald Waifu Edition
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
Uhm, although the beta turned me off big time, i hope the reviews will change my mind once the game is out (i have to wait for the PC version anyway).
 
L

LegendofLex

Member
Vlade said:
Some segments are tough for melee, some for sorcery. Respeccing could be a crutch, an added tool for you to use. Just because I've earned my power level doesn't mean to me that I should simply be allowed to progress. Some games are about being able to plan your way through.
Click to expand...

I never once felt like Dark Souls was a game that I had to "plan my way through." Generally if you're stuck, it's a matter of adjusting your strategy and equipment. So forgive me if I don't find giving the player more extensive control over his or her strategy and equipment to be a "crutch." If anything, it'll encourage a vaster knowledge of the game mechanics and give players more options for adapting their playstyle to suit different situations.

And that's a good thing, right?
 
G

Gorillaz

Member
+1 to the casul title

either

prepare to casul
or
what are you? a casul?


either way the word has to be there somewhere, misspelled
 
U

Uthred

Member
Sanctuary said:
Did you just start gaming in 2005 or something? Otherwise, you wouldn't make such ridiculous statements. Even for more recent examples, look at what happened to Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Dead Space, Bioshock, Diablo, Devil May Cry, Resident Evil and Final Fantasy.
Click to expand...

The irony here is palpable, my statement wasnt ridiculous, it was an accurate description of what youre doing. You are making up a possible negative scenario based on an unconfirmed sequel based on a mechanic from the current unreleased game that theres very little information about. You are creating an imaginary scenario to whinge about, which is fine, to each their own, chicken little your heart out. But that doesnt mean I find the behaviour any less ridiculous or laughable.
 
B

Bloomers

Member
Dark Souls 2 |OT| Hollowlujah

Dark Souls 2 |OT| Demon's Souls 2

Dark Souls 2 |OT| Key to GAF's ether

Dark Souls 2 |OT| Curse the Dark
 
T

tintin1029

Member
For the title, it needs an OnlyAfro or an ENB reference in there.
Dark Souls 2 |OT| Estus, do you drink it!
Dark Souls 2 |OT| Go Beyond Backstaboo
Dark Souls 2 |OT| Can we Praise Sun?!?
Dark Souls 2 |OT| The Legend Reborn
Dark Souls 2 |OT| Many Beanpoles Ahead, Needing Head
 
Sanctuary

Sanctuary

Member
Uthred said:
The irony here is palpable, my statement wasnt ridiculous, it was an accurate description of what youre doing. You are making up a possible negative scenario based on an unconfirmed sequel based on a mechanic from the current unreleased game that theres very little information about.
Click to expand...

I guess I could have just gone the opposite way and completely disregarded the last nine years. That's probably the more sensible thing to do. Because it's not like once a developer starts seeing the $$$ that they ever change a franchise for even more mainstream appeal.

If you'd read any of my previous posts, you would have realized that I like to use the words if and possible. I also said that I'm not particularly bothered by the majority of the announced changes in Dark Souls 2. But you're kidding yourself if you think From won't be paying close attention to the feedback and sales numbers (which is what prompted a few of these changes in the first place). If this game breaks the 3 million mark, chances of it being "dumbed down" even more are greater.

Or at least that's what has happened with virtually every big franchise. I'm sure this time will be different though!
 
O

Orayn

Member
Sanctuary said:
I guess I could have just gone the opposite way and completely disregarded the last nine years. That's probably the more sensible thing to do. Because it's not like once a developer starts seeing the $$$ that they ever change a franchise for even more mainstream appeal.

If you'd read any of my previous posts, you would have realized that I like to use the words if and possible. I also said that I'm not particularly bothered by the majority of the announced changes in Dark Souls 2. But you're kidding yourself if you think From won't be paying close attention to the feedback and sales numbers (which is what prompted a few of these changes in the first place). If this game breaks the 3 million mark, chances of it being "dumbed down" even more are greater.

Or at least that's what has happened with virtually every big franchise. I'm sure this time will be different though!
Click to expand...

Couldn't you just as easily argue that poor/middling sales would drive them to casualize it even harder?

Fuck it, let's just give up now. It's doomed no matter what.
 
S

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Sanctuary said:
I guess I could have just gone the opposite way and completely disregarded the last nine years. That's probably the more sensible thing to do. Because it's not like once a developer starts seeing the $$$ that they ever change a franchise for even more mainstream appeal.

If you'd read any of my previous posts, you would have realized that I like to use the words if and possible. I also said that I'm not particularly bothered by the majority of the announced changes in Dark Souls 2. But you're kidding yourself if you think From won't be paying close attention to the feedback and sales numbers (which is what prompted a few of these changes in the first place). If this game breaks the 3 million mark, chances of it being "dumbed down" even more are greater.

Or at least that's what has happened with virtually every big franchise. I'm sure this time will be different though!
Click to expand...

What was that game that came out in the last nine years that completely bucked mainstream trends and had a successful and popular sequel that managed to do the same, even though people thought before it came out that some of the latter's design choices would compromise it?

Can't think of the name of it for the life of me...
 
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