Support NeoGAF

[gamerforever]

Got to admit the more criticisms of the graphics we continue to get, the less enjoyable we will make it for ourselves, at least until that current gen version drops.

Perhaps we should accept it's beauty for what it is, because it still contains the atmosphere highly regarded in the Dark games.

 

[Future PhaZe]

this is an opportunity for gaming journalists to do their jobs and get to the bottom of this

 

[pa22word]

It's also worth mentioning that both the GMG and Steam store pages only went up about a week or so before the console version released, so they aren't old shots.

this is an opportunity for gaming journalists to do their jobs and get to the bottom of this

Doubtful. Again, look at Bioshock Infinite. Not even a single review mentioned how downgraded the game was vs its last public longform gameplay demo.

 

[solarus]

I was about to ask the same. This uproar cries for an official statement.

The uproar is basicalky isolated to GAF honestly. If you wang them to care, get all of the big outlets to pick this up, but that would require them to realise that they never mentioned or noticed any of this in their reviews.

 

[cascardian]

That's what I believe as well, and it also works as yet another evidence that the PC version was really the lead, despite coming later, they desgined the whole game around the systems they made with the PC versions, and only later when porting they realized it wouldn't work on consoles, so they had to cut it all. It may sound amateurish, but this comes from the same guys who couldn't make Dark Souls run at higher framerates or resolutions on PC, after all.

We can only hope we'll still get their original vision on PC.

The framerate thing was pretty bad, too. Even Resident Evil 4 HD featured 60 FPS despite 30 FPS animations. And, given the shader thing figured out by someone with no source code access in two hours when QLoc couldn't, as well as fan textures still being better and the gamma still being screwed up, I don't judge QLoc all too technically competent either.

Anyway, FROM could have had the game run on mostly 60 FPS and quickly revert to 30 and back during rolls and jumps, which presented the only really game-breaking bugs. But they didn't.

 

[YianGaruga]

One thing worth mentioning (and yes I know it's not the best of indications) is that the PC version's steam store and GMG page has screenshots of the game with the dynamic real time lighting system and all the other bells and whistles too. What's more interesting is that the screen shots are actually different per store and not just regurgitated press release shots. So personally I think there's still hope that the PC version will indeed ship feature complete.

Just checked screenshots on amazon, they're all from the old build as well.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F6YD2FK/?tag=neogaf0e-20

That is really shady

 

[Clear]

I think this is the most likely explanation. Everything we've seen was just a large vertical slice.

That's NOT what a vertical-slice is. VS demo's are proof-of-concept in order to showcase mechanics and content. Watch_Dogs E3 thing was a classic example of a vertical slice, what FROM have shown is far more extensive and probably just the PC version.

 

[Raven77]

Just checked screenshots on amazon, they're all from the old build as well.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F6YD2FK/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Soooooo doesn't that constitute as false advertising? If I didn't know better, I would buy the game off of their and be dumbfounded upon playing it.

 

[Fallout-NL]

Got to admit the more criticisms of the graphics we continue to get, the less enjoyable we will make it for ourselves, at least until that current gen version drops.

Perhaps we should accept it's beauty for what it is, because it still contains the atmosphere highly regarded in the Dark games.

Does it though? I think it actually looks worse than DkS1 in most of these shots. Some of it is so bad that you'd half expect a fucking wireframe model to pop up around the corner.

Sincerely hope the PC version does have this stuff and it's just a really unfortunate case of miscommunication.

 

[butman]

Just wait to see the gorgeousness of PC version. It will be just like all this old build shots and more!

Also DS it's a timing game, so it's a must to play it on 60fps.

 

[jim2point0]

Here's another shot of the fire from the video I did, if anyone wants it.

Compare that to this:

And once again, we see entirely different assets on the bridge.

My money is on demo and retail being designed by two different teams and the PC version will just be a better version of what's on the consoles now (better textures, maybe better SSAO\shadows, etc etc).

I hope I'm wrong....

 

[Gbraga]

And once again, we see entirely different assets on the bridge.

My money is on demo and retail being designed by two different teams and the PC version will just be a better version of what's on the consoles now (better textures, maybe better SSAO\shadows, etc etc).

I hope I'm wrong....

I really don't expect the demo quality on PC, but it would be a real bummer not to even have dark areas being dark and torches more meaningful. They can just give an option to have the console lighting system for low end rigs and it's all done.

The downgrade won't be reverted, but it'll already make a big difference on atmosphere and gameplay.

 

[cascardian]

Soooooo doesn't that constitute as false advertising? If I didn't know better, I would buy the game off of their and be dumbfounded upon playing it.

Damn, I'm pretty sure it does. Not sure who's at fault there, though. It could either be Amazon or Bamco. Who controls what appears on those pages?

 

[Stone Ocean]

Got to admit the more criticisms of the graphics we continue to get, the less enjoyable we will make it for ourselves, at least until that current gen version drops.

Perhaps we should accept it's beauty for what it is, because it still contains the atmosphere highly regarded in the Dark games.

The problem is a lot of the time it doesn't.

The atmosphere and mood on the most contrasting areas is completely gone and it just looks ugly to boot. Areas that were made with the dynamic lighting in mind look like shit you'd expect in a PS1 game, with flat textures and dull scenery. No soft glows or anything, just gray gray gray gray and gray.

 

[UnrealEck]

People saying they took time off of working on the game to build (or rebuild) entire areas and lighting systems for gameplay segments shown in demos are jumping to the most extreme and unlikely conclusions. Same with Watch Dogs' situation.

 

[Vitor711]

That's NOT what a vertical-slice is. VS demo's are proof-of-concept in order to showcase mechanics and content. Watch_Dogs E3 thing was a classic example of a vertical slice, what FROM have shown is far more extensive and probably just the PC version.

Maybe that's what all the areas demoed so far were? The original TGS demo could have been the first thing they built as a proof of concept, they polished it up and used it for marketing without realising that they couldn't build a whole game around that tech.

I'm just highly doubtful that we'll be seeing the original vision and unchanged lighting mechanics in the final PC version, as much as I'd love that to be the case.

 

[bronzodiriace]

mmmm Looking from the distance the Hydra and rotating the camera, on the edge of the side I can see the hydra animated in a bad way (I think the half of the frame rate). The same thing occurs with some mob. All this in Dark Soul. Is this trick, to gain performance, still present in DS2?

 

[Valnen]

Why the hell do you care so much about getting a comment from ENB? He has nothing to do with this and isn't in a position to change anything

This is why I care.

It seemed to imply he knew something beyond mere speculation to me.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Doubtful. Again, look at Bioshock Infinite. Not even a single review mentioned how downgraded the game was vs its last public longform gameplay demo.

very clearly a vertical slice though

what we're seeing here is much more extensive and insidious

a very deep downgrade, unmentioned, unadvertised

 

[Fallout-NL]

Those shitty screenshots from a couple weeks ago suddenly make a lot more sense.

 

[zephervack]

Footage has to come from somewhere. Gotta be the PC version.

Yeah the footage came from a curated demo.

And once again, we see entirely different assets on the bridge.

My money is on demo and retail being designed by two different teams and the PC version will just be a better version of what's on the consoles now (better textures, maybe better SSAO\shadows, etc etc).

I hope I'm wrong....

BINGO, I have been saying this for days now, the differences stink of another team just recreating the "target" demo. Its just too damn different.

People saying they took time off of working on the game to build (or rebuild) entire areas and lighting systems for gameplay segments shown in demos are jumping to the most extreme and unlikely conclusions. Same with Watch Dogs' situation.

Do you have a better explanation? At some point they created a copy of the game, at this point they both looked like the retail version, Team A kept work on the normal game, while Team B worked tirelessly to decorate and prettify the press demos.

Thats it, the retail game was never going to look like that.

 

[Brerlappin]

BINGO, I have been saying this for days now, the differences stink of another team just recreating the "target" demo. Its just too damn different.

Sounds like the difference between the awesome looking Aliens CM demo, that was "all 100% in game!!" compared to the final product whose visuals were like regurgitated asshole

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Seriously, if they had shown the current build from the start, people would have complained it's not pretty like uncharted 3 and all, but there would be no uproar. You CAN have a vertical slice, like 1 year before the game is releasedthat looks different from the actual game, but this build was shown like ttwo month ago ?? THIS is what is unacceptable.

 

[Soriku]

Yeah the footage came from a curated demo.



BINGO, I have been saying this for days now, the differences stink of another team just recreating the "target" demo. Its just too damn different.



Do you have a better explanation? At some point they created a copy of the game, at this point they both looked like the retail version, Team A kept work on the normal game, while Team B worked tirelessly to decorate and prettify the press demos.

Thats it, the retail game was never going to look like that.

Let's assume you're right.

The beta still had all the lighting and such intact, unless you mean to say that Team B worked on that too.

However, the darkness/torch mechanic is something they newly presented to the players, and so obviously Team A will want to get feedback on it. However, if it wasn't going to be such a big deal in the final game, I don't understand why they would show off the beta in that way.

 

[Coreda]

And once again, we see entirely different assets on the bridge.

My money is on demo and retail being designed by two different teams and the PC version will just be a better version of what's on the consoles now (better textures, maybe better SSAO\shadows, etc etc).

I hope I'm wrong....

This... makes too much sense. Having 'target' demos has been done before. Would be super disappointed if that's the case, but at least it would be better than thinking From flicked a killswitch on the original lighting.

 

[zephervack]

 

[Stone Ocean]

At least they kept the windy swaying

 

[Polioliolio]

So is there a list of who we've asked about this?

Has anyone contacted joystiq, or Kotaku, or Jim Sterling (voice of the people, thank god for him)?? I know Adam Sessler wouldn't give a shit, but I'd at least like to hear an official "I don't give a shit" from that fella.

So far, Epicnamebro and Vaatividya have made comment, both, unfortunately, rather disappointing.. These are two Dark Souls fanatics, and they've seriously got nothing to say on the matter other than blowing the whole thing off?

 

[ced]

Ok that's damning.

 

[pa22word]

very clearly a vertical slice though

Highly doubtful considering the game was in development for 5 years prior to that video being shown, and we'd already seen their actual vertical slice about 2 or 3 years prior.

Also, here's a shot for the "PS3 version" of Dark Souls 2 over on gamestop.com:

Yeah....

Also can anyone with the standard edition put up a shot of the back of the box? I wanna see if they went so far to mislead people as to actually putting false screenshots on the back. I saw one image of the full boxart (back included!) but it was super low res and you couldn't definitively make anything out, but it looked like the shots were from the initial build. If anyone can confirm one way or the other it be really helpful, and very appreciated.

 

[Krusenstern]

Here's another shot of the fire from the video I did, if anyone wants it.

Compare that to this:

It looks like a different game. The lava pit in the first shot reminds me of PS1 visuals.

Do you have a better explanation? At some point they created a copy of the game, at this point they both looked like the retail version, Team A kept work on the normal game, while Team B worked tirelessly to decorate and prettify the press demos.

Thats it, the retail game was never going to look like that.

Wouldn't that be straight up false advertising?

I can't stop knocking my head on the desk.

 

[kvn]

Dragons on vacation. Come back later.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Do you have a better explanation? At some point they created a copy of the game, at this point they both looked like the retail version, Team A kept work on the normal game, while Team B worked tirelessly to decorate and prettify the press demos.

Thats it, the retail game was never going to look like that.

 

[robin2]

The beta still had all the lighting and such intact, unless you mean to say that Team B worked on that too.

Frankly, the beta footage I saw looked already totally downgraded (compared to that initial footage, which is used in comparisons).


I'm also thinking about the separate double development. They said their new engine was a next-gen engine. Then: Team A did the game, Team B put together, with assets from the game, a demo to test-push the capabilities of the new engine. And the latter is what was shown off.
I need explanation on this.

 

[Scrawnton]

Is it really that surprising that they showed off pc versions to press and now the ps3 version is not as good? The fact that people are pissed over this pretty much forces From to release a ps4 version.

 

[Piers]

Dragons on vacation. Come back later.

Yeah, what the fuck guys. They made that whole scene really dramatic and unnerving.
Guess we're seeing more and more evidence that this isn't simply FROM switching off awesome graphics for limited hardware. They legitimately cut this stuff out for good.

 

[Clear]

Maybe that's what all the areas demoed so far were? The original TGS demo could have been the first thing they built as a proof of concept, they polished it up and used it for marketing without realising that they couldn't build a whole game around that tech.

I'm just highly doubtful that we'll be seeing the original vision and unchanged lighting mechanics in the final PC version, as much as I'd love that to be the case.

They said from the start that they were leading development for this project on PC. Essentially meaning that they build the game on the most powerful platform and backport it to PS360 during the final stages of development. Ergo for the majority of the dev cycle the build most worthy of being shown is the PC one, as squeezing it into the far more restrictive architectures of the last gen consoles takes time and a whole bunch of trade-offs.

Besides, as developers you always want to put your best foot forward, so it makes sense to always show the best looking version.

 

[jim2point0]

Is it really that surprising that they showed off pc versions to press and now the ps3 version is not as good? The fact that people are pissed over this pretty much forces From to release a ps4 version.

People are upset because the PS3 version used to look like this. Not the PC version.

 

[KarmaCow]

Is it really that surprising that they showed off pc versions to press and now the ps3 version is not as good? The fact that people are pissed over this pretty much forces From to release a ps4 version.

People played the game on a PS3, both in press events and during the beta, it's not really a case of PCs being under the table with a controller attached.

 

[Sickbean]

The weird thing is, I think those shots look pretty similar, EXCEPT for the massively squashed dynamic range of the lighting.

Is that even something that costs rendering time? It mostly looks like someone just switched the big light on (Peter Kay reference there).

 

[solarus]

Is it really that surprising that they showed off pc versions to press and now the ps3 version is not as good? The fact that people are pissed over this pretty much forces From to release a ps4 version.

Yeah no, you have no idea what you are talking about. Playstation access played a ps3 build of the game in january 2014 with all of this lighting etc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3MdOBH-jDc

 

[Durante]

The weird thing is, I think those shots look pretty similar, EXCEPT for the massively squashed dynamic range of the lighting.

Is that even something that costs rendering time? It mostly looks like someone just switched the big light on (Peter Kay reference there).

It's not just the dynamic range, the lighting on both the scene and character are totally different. Entirely different light direction for one.

 

[Clear]

People are upset because the PS3 version used to look like this. Not the PC version.

That being the case, why did they change it? To fuck with people?

C'mon guy, that makes no sense whatsoever.

Ask yourself: Why would you throw away all that work?

Simple question, apply Occam's razor and the obvious answer is because they had no better choice.

 

[Sickbean]

It's not just the dynamic range, the lighting on both the scene and character are totally different. Entirely different light direction for one.

Does the one on the left hand side even have a light direction though? Just looks like everything is lit evenly from every direction.

 

[doofy102]

That being the case, why did they change it? To fuck with people?

C'mon guy, that makes no sense whatsoever.

Ask yourself: Why would you throw away all that work?

Simple question, apply Occam's razor and the obvious answer is because they had no better choice.

We're not questioning that.

We just don't see why From should get a free pass on this, "oh they had no choice so let it go," because, after all, it's still their fault this whole mess happened.

 

[Krusenstern]

I'm getting really mad when no retail build is going to look like the demo builds we have seen in the last months.
That they developed demo builds with superior graphics just for showcasing the game.

Now that would be deliberate false advertising.

 

[Robobandit]

That being the case, why did they change it? To fuck with people?

C'mon guy, that makes no sense whatsoever.

Ask yourself: Why would you throw away all that work?

Simple question, apply Occam's razor and the obvious answer is because they had no better choice.

The big reason people are questioning this is because they had a beta in January where the game looked like this on PS3. Now two months later there has been such a drastic change and the game still runs like crap in places..

I completely understand that fans want an explanation of why the game got such a huge downgrade and why we didn't find out about it until now. (I know it's probably related to marketing/PR bullshit, but there should still be some answers given)

 

[catashtrophe]

Is there any comparison videos of the beta PS3 version versus the PS3 retail?

Same area etc so we can see exactly how big the difference is?

 

[Blargonaut]

Are we all just going to accept this and settle for the PC version? Seriously? After reading this entire thread, I CANNOT believe that is seriously the consensus. This is a f**king outrage.

I do not have a sufficient PC to play this. I'm sure many others don't as well. I chose to spend my money on a console to enjoy games. I'm sure many others did that too.

I spent money on Dark Souls 2 for PS3, expecting a console version matching the footage that the maker provided. I waited. Now I have an inferior version, blatantly stripped of a visual feature advertised to be a core gameplay mechanic RIGHT UP TO THIS DATE.

With no formal WARNING or EXPLANATION from From Software or the publisher!

They sold us a polished turd, are taking our money and running. WE ARE HOLDING SHINY FECES IN OUR HANDS, AND SMILING AT OUR REFLECTION.

ARE WE SERIOUSLY SETTLING FOR THIS?

Aren't any of you ANGRY at this?




We had a PLAYABLE build of the version including dynamic lighting JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO. Even though it was a beta, it was PLAYABLE.

ON PS3.

ON PS3.

Why does the general consensus on this thread seem to be:

"Oh, it's not that big of a deal. You console players shouldn't have had such high expectations. Just wait for the PC version..."

...DESPITE From Software showcasing the superior PLAYABLE console version to us MERE MONTHS AGO (weeks even!).

This is a bait-and-switch in its TRUEST FORM. We were NEVER told of this before release and we only had mere hints of it from investigations and screenshots from FANS, OF ALL PEOPLE. Like private investigators sniffing out information on their own. From Software NEVER made a formal announcement about this downgrade BEFORE release.

And the worst part is that From DID NOT, AND CONTINUES TO NOT make a statement regarding this blatant downgrade and removal of a key gameplay feature, one they TOUTED in every major press release and reveal?

THIS WAS NOT JUST A REMOVAL OF EYE CANDY.

THIS IS REMOVAL OF AN ACTIVELY-CONTRIBUTING GAMEPLAY FEATURE. A FEATURE TOUTED BY FROM AS A KEY ASPECT OF THE ATMOSPHERE AND MECHANICS OF THE ENTIRE GAME.

IMPORTANTLY, ONE THAT WAS ALREADY SHOWN TO BE PROVEN TO WORK ON CONSOLES.



There must be some action to take to FORCE From Software to make a statement about this. Their silence is equivalent to taking the money and running with it, and the majority seems happy to suck up an INFERIOR PRODUCT, which is PLAIN WRONG. This is boycott-worthy stuff.

The best goal to aim for would be re-implementing the lighting in a soon-in-the-future patch.

From Software should NOT get away with this. THIS SHOULD NOT TURN INTO THE AAA PRECEDENT FOR THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOUR.

 

[wicko]

Does the one on the left hand side even have a light direction though? Just looks like everything is lit evenly from every direction.

Sunlight is coming from forward-right, and in the other gif behind-right. Prefer behind right so I can actually see the detail in the castle.