I just used Kotaku's listing for the categories so it was consistent. I don't know their justification for it.
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The Golden Age of JRPGs - Which Era Is It?
- Thread starter Shinta
- Start date
I don't really see how the GBA fits in with the Playstation, Saturn, and N64 era. It released when all of those systems were pretty much dead. I'd probably say the 16 bit era is the golden age in terms of the games feeling timeless. PS1 era visuals are just a mess so I would have a hard time putting them ahead of any of the others. I really enjoy games from every era though so I don't suppose it makes too much difference to me.
I think it depends. PSOne had more variety and some amazing games, Xenogears, FFVII, Dragon Warrior VII, Breath of Fire III, Wild Arms, Suikoden etc.
But SNES has some of the best JRPGs ever made. FFVI, Earthbound, Dragon Quest V etc
I think SNES had some close to perfect games, Chrono Trigger anyone? But I think other JRPGs on the platform live off of nostalgia. Definitely think the average JRPG on PSOne is better than the average JRPG on SNES. Plus PSOne has some close to perfect titles as well. Suikoden 2 for instance.
It's hard for me to say PSOne beats SNES, but I definitely think it does.
But SNES has some of the best JRPGs ever made. FFVI, Earthbound, Dragon Quest V etc
I think SNES had some close to perfect games, Chrono Trigger anyone? But I think other JRPGs on the platform live off of nostalgia. Definitely think the average JRPG on PSOne is better than the average JRPG on SNES. Plus PSOne has some close to perfect titles as well. Suikoden 2 for instance.
It's hard for me to say PSOne beats SNES, but I definitely think it does.
Couldn't agree more. There were a couple of all-time classics on the SNES, but we were absolutely spoiled by choice when it came to great JRPGs on the PS1. What a wonderful time that was.
See, this is why I made the distinction for what came out in NA and what came out in Japan (meanwhile Europe seemed to be so badly screwed that getting more actual attention in the Polygonal era gave that one the nod), while I have little doubt there was a lot of garbage we were perfectly fine missing like anime licensed RPGs there was also a lot of Squaresoft's more interesting output that got stuck there, and some niche stuff that had no real avenue for international release that generally exists these days, nevermind how Dragon Quest had the poor misfortune to be left behind for the whole generation (and seemingly history will repeat itself...) But that next generation we reliably got ALMOST everything worthy of note from Squaresoft, and it mainly stayed that way until later in the DS days when it collapsed again. Though the omissions were getting more and more noticeable before then, IE no FM5 in NA.
And it's not just SE either, we started actually getting the MegaTen umbrella games and even some of the stuff we missed from the 16-bit generation, I'd still count those with that era just because of when they were conceived but it says a lot about that generation how we more reliably got stuff.
aparisi2274
Member
The Golden Age of JRPGs was the late SNES to early PS1 era. Late PS1 through PS2 era was more of a Silver Age. By the late PS2 era, most of the big Japanese publishers had bowed out of the genre completely, leaving it in the hands of smaller publishers, leading to the Bronze Age of JRPGs, where you needed to turn to portables to get good RPGs for the most part.
I think we are standing at the end of the Bronze Age, waiting to see if we are about to descend into a darker Iron Age or be surprised by the emergence of a Heroic Age of JRPGs.
Or maybe I'm stretching this use of the X Age scheme too far.
I think we are standing at the end of the Bronze Age, waiting to see if we are about to descend into a darker Iron Age or be surprised by the emergence of a Heroic Age of JRPGs.
Or maybe I'm stretching this use of the X Age scheme too far.
16 bit.
16 bit JRPG's have aged much better, indie devs in the present still haven't captured what made those games special. Its a lot easier to pick up and be interested in a 16 bit JRPG versus PS1 era JRPG's. PS1 era JRPG's seem stiff and bloated when it comes to pacing, whereas 16 bit JRPG's have much brisker pacing. The premise and themes of Chrono Trigger are shown in the first ten minutes, Earthbound is mysterious and witty right from the get go.
Its not like all eras haven't had good JRPG's, but the most progress arguably came from the 16 bit era. Look at it this way, has JRPG story telling en masse really changed that much since the 16 bit era? Cutscenes have replaced dialog box scenes, 3D faces mean more emotion shown instead of being told. But the stories themselves seem similar.
16 bit JRPG's have aged much better, indie devs in the present still haven't captured what made those games special. Its a lot easier to pick up and be interested in a 16 bit JRPG versus PS1 era JRPG's. PS1 era JRPG's seem stiff and bloated when it comes to pacing, whereas 16 bit JRPG's have much brisker pacing. The premise and themes of Chrono Trigger are shown in the first ten minutes, Earthbound is mysterious and witty right from the get go.
Its not like all eras haven't had good JRPG's, but the most progress arguably came from the 16 bit era. Look at it this way, has JRPG story telling en masse really changed that much since the 16 bit era? Cutscenes have replaced dialog box scenes, 3D faces mean more emotion shown instead of being told. But the stories themselves seem similar.
This takes a really really narrow view of jRPGs. I love some of those old Square RPGs, but there were plenty of fantastic ones that the 16-bit era had that the 32-bit era missed out on. Phantasy Star and Terranigma being two (previously unmentioned) good examples.
NotMyRealName
Banned
16 bit era, before load times existed.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Late 1990's early 2000's are just the golden era of any rpg, both western and japanese. (the time at which a feature film of Final Fantasy would get made) it just doesn't split right around the generation switch.
Interesting perspective.
GalacticSushiman
Member
16-bit for sure for me.
Must play from this era: Chrono Trigger, FFVI, Mario RPG, Earthbound, Seiken Densetsu III.
Must play since then: Xenogear, Skies of Arcadia, Disgaea, Xenoblade.
Arf.
Must play from this era: Chrono Trigger, FFVI, Mario RPG, Earthbound, Seiken Densetsu III.
Must play since then: Xenogear, Skies of Arcadia, Disgaea, Xenoblade.
Arf.
drtomoe123
Member
But wouldn't the careful refinement of the genre's 16-bit successes inherently make the 32-bit era better?
Suikoden II, Moon: Remix RPG Adventure, Xenogears, Final Fantasy Tactics, Valkyrie Profile, Final Fantasy IX, Dragon Quest VII, SaGa Frontier
One of the 32-bit era's shining achievements was the creation of the 3D action RPG on consoles. Granted, the consoles had quite a few stinkers, but games like Parasite Eve, Vagrant Story, and Mega Man Legends 2 were very high quality games that were really unlike anything else out there at the time.
Manmademan
Member
What he's saying is that a relevant criticism of the 16 bit era is that many, many, many good games of that era simply never made it out of Japan. US and EU gamers never got to play them. It's odd that you bring up terranigma since THAT game never made it to the US for mysterious reasons, despite the existence of a version in English!
On top of that many that did get brought to the west ended up either broken, gimped, or with busted translations. FFIV SNES and 7th Saga are probably the two most glaring examples of this one.
It's hard to imagine now because it largely doesn't happen anymore, but games getting crippled or left in Japan for no good reason was the rule, not the exception. It wasn't until the 32 bit generation and later that some of the more notable 16 bit games even showed up- tactics ogre and ffv, for instance.
It's very difficult to label the 16 bit era as the best if you were actually playing games in that era, and not picking up ports and ROMS a decade later.
I find that most people that believe SNES was the golden era just didn't game that much in PSOne era and don't really play JRPGs at all anymore. Great JRPGs are still coming out. I think most of them don't believe this so they still cling to the SNES era.
Agreed.
Agreed.
The 16-bit era, and it isn't even close.
Don't get me wrong, I love RPG's from all of the different era, but for me personally, you can't beat the 16-bit classics. So many of my favorite RPG's of all time [including my favorite of all-time, Chrono Trigger] are from that generation.
Don't get me wrong, I love RPG's from all of the different era, but for me personally, you can't beat the 16-bit classics. So many of my favorite RPG's of all time [including my favorite of all-time, Chrono Trigger] are from that generation.
Admittedly Squaresoft can be argued as being a litmus test for the genre at large (well, maybe less so now that they kinda lost their way on that front), and I forgot to mention that apparently the PC Engine had a great lineup of RPGs so that alone is a huge reason for the NA/Japan release distinction.
EDIT:
Yeah, this post gets it. We still got some of the brightest gems, but a lot of stuff failed to come over and that which did was easy to miss. I don't doubt even some of the poor performing yet well received JRPGs today grossly outdoes anything not from Squaresoft from back then.
akidnamededdy
Banned
This was a good point until I remembered it's 2014.
Manmademan
Member
He's not wrong. Rpg's fucking exploded after ff7 was a success. Quality might be debatable but quantity isn't. Many, many, many more Rpg's were being made and translated, and at almost half the cost of 16 bit carts.
The ps2 era likely had just as many, but it slowed considerably last gen. I don't think we'll see the genre hit those heights again.
I think that's true for a whole lot of people. But that's not true for me, and I still voted for 16 bit.
I was playing JRPGs since Dragon Warrior. They exploded on SNES with an extremely sharp rise in quality. I actually had a hard time finding the motivation to even keep playing them during the PS1 era. They were slow, and often ugly. After playing Mario 64, FFVII was just ugly as sin, even at the time of its release. It felt like a massive downgrade from Chrono Trigger and FFVI. I liked VIII more, but not that much. IX was neat, but slow as shit and had an awful cast excluding Vivi. Lots of PS1 JRPGs were extremely shallow affairs sold primarily because of an anime cover and anime cutscenes, rather than genuinely compelling gameplay. I purchased dozens of duds that I never could make myself get all the way through. Why even play that when Ocarina of Time was out? They were painful to play even at the time of their release. It wasn't until the PS2 era that I truly got back into JRPGs with FFX, FFXI, and FXII leading the way. I play even more top tier JRPGs in the modern era than the PS2 era, with fantastic ones on consoles and portables.
I agree with you though that a whole lot of people don't even play them anymore, and just talk about it online.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Oh I agree, but the nostalgia-goggles argument is kind of a silly one when it's SNES vs. PS1.
I gotta give the edge to 32 bit myself. SNES was home to more all time favorites, but the PS1's sheer volume can't be just written off.
I liked KH1 a lot, liked KH2, but what you're saying is ridiculous. KH amounts to being a extra lite JRPG mixed in with a lite character action game.
Manmademan
Member
I'm hedging between ps1 and ps2 myself. Both had outrageous volume that the snes just can't touch (the ps2 has more GOOD games for it than the snes has games TOTAL) but the ps2 era was more refined and aged a lot better, while the ps1 had a lot more crazy, "experimental" games that pushed the envelope a bit more.
16-bit era had some legendary games, but I gotta go with 32-bit for the sheer quantity of amazing RPGs, and really pushing the genre forward.
It's when Square, Konami, Capcom and many, many others were all consistently delivering the best stuff they've ever done.
Just off the top of my head here...
Final Fantasy 7-9+Tactics
Xenogears
Chrono Cross
Vagrant Story
Valkyrie Profile
Persona 1-2
Suikoden 1-2
Breath of Fire 3-4
Dragon Warrior 7
Grandia
Lunar 1-2 Remakes
Wild Arms 1-2
Tales of Destiny 1-2
Star Ocean 2
...and many others I can't think at the moment, but there's a lot.
It's when Square, Konami, Capcom and many, many others were all consistently delivering the best stuff they've ever done.
Just off the top of my head here...
Final Fantasy 7-9+Tactics
Xenogears
Chrono Cross
Vagrant Story
Valkyrie Profile
Persona 1-2
Suikoden 1-2
Breath of Fire 3-4
Dragon Warrior 7
Grandia
Lunar 1-2 Remakes
Wild Arms 1-2
Tales of Destiny 1-2
Star Ocean 2
...and many others I can't think at the moment, but there's a lot.
I honestly don't think they pushed the envelope that much at all in the PS1 era. Ocarina of Time showed almost the whole genre in that time period was dead on arrival. They had already been completely surpassed in almost every way. PS1 JRPGs were basically just timid extensions of the innovations pushed in the 16 bit era. They didn't really catch up until PS2.
The big push on PS1 was because games were cheaper to make on that system, and we got a lot of cheaply made JRPGs.
I actually think rather the opposite. In simple terms, the refinement was of a system that wasn't all that great to begin with. PSX-era games are one which, by far, have aged terribly. There's a lot of nostalgia built into digging in yesteryear, and the reality is that those in the 16-bit era, generally, aged better. Some of them still have better writing than games of today, and that's saying a lot when, at least in the past, "nobody" knew how to write for videogames.
The formula for the games that were so iconic in the 16-bit era was effectively beaten to death by the time the 32-bit era was over. The PS2 era shows this by having a greater dearth of experimentation in actual gameplay in the jRPG genre.
Also, manmademan, I don't know how to take the ahistoricism of your statements. You're simultaneously saying the era was the great, but it wasn't because the games were "flawed" when they were released. The games during the 16-bit era are far more timeless than those of the 32-bit era. It's probably why those 16-bit classics keep getting endless remakes and sequels, rather than the 32-bit games. Though I also mark FFVII as the death of the classic jRPG and the birth of the anime-jRPG, so your mileage may vary.
"Flawed"
You spoony bard!
Son of a submariner!
Uhhh, yeah, this honestly may be one of the craziest opinions I've seen on JRPGs.
Seriously though KH1 just is really, really far from what I want out of action RPGs, nevermind RPGs in general. Exploration isn't particularly great, it IS heavily focused on combat yet that can drag out and be repetitive, and it doesn't even really have a story I care about. I missed how action RPGs used to be "Zelda but with more RPG elements" in that they were still in a continuous world and could have really fast paced action, and outside of Ys the only series that's even come close to being similar there to me was the Demon's Souls/Dark Souls one.
Though I only ever finished KH1 and I did hear a lot of praise for KHII and BbS, so I guess I'll just play the HD release of those, but even if I like them way more than 1 I just can't see them being a genre or sub-genre peak.
(Also Diablo's probably the furthest from what I want out of an action RPG, though maybe not an RPG in general. That and similar games CAN be a lot of fun with other people, but randomized dungeons leading to boring exploration, combat that can be slow-ish in at least non-DII games, and a focus first and foremost on getting tons of loot with minimal differences. If I can't play them with other people they are mind numbingly bland.)
Yeah, I figured you meant that when I saw that. Though if this was decided while the 32-bit generation was at its peak there'd be the arguments perhaps of neophilia. At least they both have the nostalgia angle I guess to partially cancel each other out, but then for some of us it may be which we have stronger nostalgia FOR... and admittedly the 32-bit era may be that for me with the 16-bit era nipping at its heels.
Or mid to late 20s at least, though much younger than 27 or 28 and I can't imagine you'd have gotten serious 16-bit exposure.
They've always been "anime-jRPGs", literally the first megahit within the genre that codified it (Dragon Quest) was big partially because they got Akira Toriyama doing artwork for it.
It's just about what era and flavors of anime we're talking about, and which we were exposed to. The likes of FFVII definitely seemed born from the kind of culture that brought us Evangelion, and likewise we have a lot more of the pandering type of JRPGs as that stuff seems more prevalent in anime (or at least it's the same type of pandering a lot modern anime/manga will do.) Funnily enough I could probably give you that it was probably the game to point out as the animefication of Final Fantasy, but even then you could make similar arguments for the characterization of the prior games, and just how their in-game sprites looked.
AcademicSaucer
Member
SNES
PS2 era for me.
Persona 3
Persona 4
Shin Megami Tensei III Nocturne
Final Fantasy X
Final Fantasy XII
Dragon Quarter
Shadow Hearts
Shadow Hearts 2
Tales of the Abyss
Valkyrie Profile 2
Star Ocean 3
Dragon Quest VIII
Just a few on top of my head. Ridiculously good games there.
Persona 3
Persona 4
Shin Megami Tensei III Nocturne
Final Fantasy X
Final Fantasy XII
Dragon Quarter
Shadow Hearts
Shadow Hearts 2
Tales of the Abyss
Valkyrie Profile 2
Star Ocean 3
Dragon Quest VIII
Just a few on top of my head. Ridiculously good games there.
29. I guess that's part of why the two generations are sort of in a tight race for me and generally come out way ahead of every other generation in my mind.
Nevermind if you decide to change this to JUST RPGs, not just JRPGs, because Ultima VII may be a classic but I'll gladly play Fallout, Baldur's Gate, or Planescape Torment over that any day.
Or they prefer different games? This is really disrespectful. Telling people that their opinion isn't genuine. You have no idea what their history is or what they have played. And you're completely discounting that several people, myself included, played games during that era in Japanese without issue.
Can we just all agree that it certainly ISN'T the PS3/360/Wii gen? The genre was healthy and thriving for a decade before last gen took a steaming shit all over it.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
I'm a huge 16-bit era fanboy, but there's no denying 32-bit RPGs beat their predecessors.
I don't actually think this is the case. I think that while the artwork was anime-flavored, I'm mostly getting back to the writing. Even so, the art that was in the 16-bit era was often heavily infused with medieval overtones that really didn't make it across to the 32-bit era (wild western and steampunk environments tended to be much more popular overworlds). The fact that everyone was chasing FFVII at the time meant that games continued to try and create a sense of grittiness in their game worlds and it frequently just comes across as... pardon the choice of words, but the writing of a confused teenager attempting to relate to an audience. I consider the PSX-era to effectively be the awkward teenage years of the videogame industry. There was some really interesting stuff that came out of it, and some really terrible stuff, but generally what was created lacked direction or focus. The childish wonderment of the younger systems, especially RPGs, became infused with lavish attempts at appreciating complex issues, but only in the most simple and narrow-minded of ways (which again, gets back to NGE and all those influences as well).
Ruling it out is possibly dumber, because by all rights it's PS3/360/Wii/DS/PSP generation. Preferences are still a factor obviously, and people may just not like the shift period, but to ignore those two systems is sticking your head in the sand about where the genre actually is.
... Nevermind that the PS3's finishing surprisingly strong and that the Wii had one last strong burst before dying.