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[Amir0x]

So I've seen this more times than I can count (Forza 5, Ryse, inFamous, Knack etc have all been smeared with this), and the latest victim is The Order. First, let me preface by saying I agree they need to reevaluate how they're showing this game, because they keep picking areas that do not showcase what The Order is supposedly really doing according to their own words.

BUT

Why again is it a negative if something IS a 'standard' such and such? A 'standard' TPS that is super refined is still a phenomenal game, potential 10/10 for all we know. A 'standard' racing game that is super refined and polished is likely to play infinitely better than some shallow gimmick showpiece with some turd gameplay feature added to try to 'differentiate' itself from the rest of the market.

Where did this idea come from, that so many people seem to equate innovation for innovation sake with quality? We have literally hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of examples of developers doing just this and releasing garbage bin products with no regard for how the games actually feel to play, all because they're so worried that they're "innovating."

If the innovation comes from a natural place and supplements refined gameplay elements, awesome! But if a game is simply a refined version of what has come before, why is that bad if what came before was widely considered great?

For example, Uncharted is a 'standard TPS' with some platforming elements. The second game is widely regarded on neoGAF and among other gaming communities. I'm not on the same GOTY trip as the people who love that series (I have deep problems with the series, but I digress), but if The Order came out and played like Uncharted, mechanically as enjoyable, would these same people genuinely be criticizing the series still?

I'm not even sure at what point the standards changed for the gameplay entering into next-generation. So far, literally zero games have demonstrated any sort of gameplay that has vastly differentiated itself from some title from last-gen. If there is a single game, my apologies, because I certainly missed it.

Now maybe these people really do dislike everything that has come so far, and that's a respectable position to have. But what I want to know is: what is next-gen gameplay for you? What precisely are you looking for? And what elements of 'last-gen gameplay' are making you reflexively dismiss titles that play like them on next-gen?

 

[Jonboy]

Preach.

 

[Wynnebeck]

Because. Fanboys.

 

[JayEH]

How many threads are we going to have based on the new Order gameplay? This is two so far.

 

[vagabondarts]

The games I play look like PS1 games.
Who cares if the game is fun?

Also, 1st Person Dungeon Crawlers (my favorite type of game) are better when they aren't shoehorning innovation into them (see Unchained blades) so I see what you mean

 

[Amir0x]

How many threads are we going to have based on the new Order gameplay? This is two so far.

This is just using the Order as a point of example; it's actually not a The Order topic. I'm sure you know that.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Because the AI is brain dead . improve the AI ffs,

 

[EvB]

Ultimately this time around, the technology hasn't opened any doors to do things that simply weren't possible before, unlike previous generations.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Extended generation whose output gave us two AAA cover-based shooters with three or four games apiece. Sim racers with realistic graphics and a focus on tiny details...also lots of sequels. It's called genre fatigue and these 'new' next-gen/current-gen games, as nice as they look, constantly remind us of the many times we've already experienced them. People want to do new things in a new generation, not just see the old activities with better presentation.

 

[curb]

It's so early in the generation. I would think that a studio's first game on a new gen system will have to be more about getting used to the new tech and once they've got that down, they'll be more free to try new things later on. And besides, these days I doubt that publishers are going to shell out millions of dollars to fund games based on new gameplay systems that aren't proven - big budget games are going to be safer than ever.

I agree with OP, I don't know what people are really expecting at the start of a new console cycle.

 

[McDougles]

Watch Dogs will be one of the first next-gen games to feature any new gameplay elements with its seamless single-multiplayer. That's about it, I believe.

Regardless, you're absolutely right. Maybe it's because these consoles are the closest consoles have even been to its similarly-priced PC counterpart, but there seems to be an extraordinary high level of standards entering not even the first 12 months of a new console's life for both the PS4 and Xbox One.

There's barely anything new under the sun. It doesn't help that what Sony has shown out of The Order has little nuance as to what we can expect differently out of this cover-based TPS than any others.

 

[Sephiroth_GR_]

Uncharted is a bad example imo.Terrible third person shooter with even more terrible enemy AI

I think innovation will come from things like advanced AI and more open world-designed games.

 

[ShineALight]

For example, Uncharted is a 'standard TPS' with some platforming elements. The second game is widely regarded on neoGAF and among other gaming communities. I'm not on the same GOTY trip as the people who love that series (I have deep problems with the series, but I digress), but if The Order came out and played like Uncharted, mechanically as enjoyable, would these same people genuinely be criticizing the series still?

The Uncharted series (2 included) has its critics, and many of those are likely the same people that are down on The Order for having the appearance of being a mechanically sound but fairly boilerplate cinematic TPS.

 

[ComputerMKII]

I'd be fine with a last-gen-looking game if it ran at 1080p/60 fps.

 

[Amir0x]

Uncharted is a bad example imo.Terrible third person shooter with even more terrible enemy AI

I think innovation will come from things like advanced AI and more open world-designed games.

As I said in the OP, i have deep problems with the Uncharted series. I simply chose a game that was widely regarded as a high quality product among gaming communities, and that had what one could call 'standard' gameplay elements of its respective genre.

 

[Vic20]

There will be games that merely copy good games of the past with a fresher coat of paint. This is not a crime. The industry is big enough now that not every game must be ground breaking to be good.

 

[Raptor]

Fucking agreed.

Thats my reason for buying a damn new gen system, to have games with better graphics, better performance and of course teh most important better more detailed gore and thats it.

I don't know what so many people expected to be honest.

 

[NullPointer]

Hype is a monster, and the more you feed it and the more it grows the more devastation it unleashes when hype doesn't live up to reality.

Next-gen always fills the mind with ideas of what "next gen gameplay" is. Not presentation mind you, but honest to God gameplay that simply would not be possible in the previous generation. Revolutionary ideas, not evolutionary ones. That's what is sold with every generational transition, not just graphics improvements.

When flagship titles finally hit and show gameplay that could be done previous gen, only now done in much higher fidelity, it shouldn't surprise to see disappointment reign.

Its the nature of the beast, and just about everybody is responsible for it.

 

[Salex_]

I want last gen gameplay. Tekken 5 DR, Melee, and the real DMC games were amazing.

 

[njean777]

My question is: if they put more processing and time into the AI would that make the game look worse? This is a serious question as I have no clue what entails good AI. I always thought they would have to use processing power to accomplish it, and if they do that, they have to take it away from some other areas of the game.

 

[Dictator93]

This is the second thread about the reaction to the reaction to the order.

IMO, people complaining about boring gameplay, when all they are being shown is boring gameplay. sounds fine.

It is up to a dev to prove their game deserves attention by what they write about it and how they show it. The team making the order unfortunately has yet to say exactly what makes its gameplay so different.... apparently.

 

[BRocknRolla]

There is some kind of imaginary expectations that something new and revolutionary is going to come out of a new generation of consoles. It's nonsensical. We don't hold that standard up to any other industry, but somehow games have to be different.

You know what kinds of games are the most experimental with their gameplay? The most ready to throw out old gameplay conventions? Indies! And yet, you'll hear a vocal contingent of people around those titles decrying them for being indies rather than AAA. People find reasons to complain about anything at the merest hint of an opportunity.

Truly unique and revolutionary things are rare. It is true of video games and every other piece of media. That doesn't mean everything is useless tripe. A new setting and story is more than enough to make a good experience in most cases. If The Order, or Ryse, or any other "generic" title doesn't excite you, then that's just fine; you're entitled to your opinion. But these demands for "new" or "next gen gameplay," particularly with so many people wholly unable to articulate what that's supposed to mean, are ridiculous.

 

[Canis lupus]

It's just silly, what the hell does next gen gameplay even mean? We\ve been playing the same genres for generations. No one complained about the gameplay during transition from the PS2 and PS3.

 

[silver.tongue]

Because. Fanboys.

This.
Stop listening to fanboys and just play your damn games, man.

"Next-Gen Gameglay" is by far the most stupid buzzword people like to use now...

 

[Malcolm9]

Uncharted is a bad example imo.Terrible third person shooter with even more terrible enemy AI

I think innovation will come from things like advanced AI and more open world-designed games.

Uncharted a terrible first person shooter? The AI isn't fascinating but it does the job in the type of game it is.

 

[Cosmozone]

Making a good game is hard enough. But you also need variety to avoid the experience going stale. Try to listen to your favorite song 100 times in a row and see what happens. The human brain reacts positively to new experiences. More of the same makes it feel dull over the time.

 

[Sephiroth_GR_]

As I said in the OP, i have deep problems with the Uncharted series. I simply chose a game that was widely regarded as a high quality product among gaming communities, and that had what one could call 'standard' gameplay elements of its respective genre.

Then you should had included Gears of War instead, regarding " 'standard' gameplay elements of its respective genre" if you are talking about tps in general

Uncharted is high quality product among gaming communities for it's "Wow" cinematic moments.Basically an excellent cinematic adventure game, but as a tps..well..

 

[Amir0x]

Hype is a monster, and the more you feed it and the more it grows the more devastation it unleashes when hype doesn't live up to reality.

Next-gen always fills the mind with ideas of what "next gen gameplay" is. Not presentation mind you, but honest to God gameplay that simply would not be possible in the previous generation. Revolutionary ideas, not evolutionary ones. That's what is sold with every generational transition, not just graphics improvements.

When flagship titles finally hit and show gameplay that could be done previous gen, only now done in much higher fidelity, it shouldn't surprise to see disappointment reign.

Its the nature of the beast, and just about everybody is responsible for it.

I agree with this in principle: i made a similar point about people's expectations about visuals.

But the difference here is that I'm not sure anybody has actually showed a single example of 'revolutionary' gameplay yet for any of the next-gen platforms, even Wii U. My deeper question is: what ARE people expecting? What do they think would be next-gen gameplay? For example, let's just say somebody wanted to make a good racing game. How would you go about making that so innovative that you'd call it 'next-gen gameplay'?

Now it's not your job to come up with these ideas, I know. But I'm trying to get an understanding of what people's expectations are, because if it's just some vague nebulous idea that something should be different... even when nothing is... then maybe we can internally re-evaluate those expectations in a discussion like this?

 

[ricardokenshin]

"Next-Gen Gameglay" is by far the most stupid buzzword people like to use now...

I came to post this but it was already covered.

 

[Alex]

I love good sequels and reiteration and while I thought Uncharted 2 great that shtick has worn thin for me. I'm essentially done with the 2007-2009 cinematic corridor game boom, barring any unforeseen strains that push more personal buttons.

Sony has a good head for finding an audience with these things though, so I'm sure they'll make something of it. I just can't hack any more, personally, unless we're talking one hell of a crazy gameplay slant that isn't chest high walls and push forward for emotions.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Mario World was just Mario 3 with next gen graphics OH NO!

the only next gen game ever was Mario 64, all other games were and are terrible

 

[SlasherJPC]

Expectations are at an all time high. Especially since these new systems were a long time coming. With that you get folks that expect amazing graphics, 1080 resolution, 60fps, and inovated gamplay mechanics. The reality is, you'll most like never get a combination of all four of those things I just mentioned.

Personally I'm loving the new systems but yeah, I've seen this over and over.

 

[GYNGA]

I agree with OP. Also people seem to forget that RaD is a studio that haven't made a bad game. All of the games they've made are top-quality, including gameplay side.

Apparently devs didn't even know about this stream so it's just Sony's PR doing a mediocre job at showcasing the game.

 

[thehypocrite]

I skip past troll/ignorant post like those. Have no time for that negative bullshit and empty criticism. I'm sure these guys/gals never have sex with the same person, never eat the same food, wear the same type of clothes, listen to the same music album. Everything is new and awesome in their life, they're capable of such high levels of innovation that would make steve jobs, Tesla and others be ashamed and commit harakiri.

 

[Metalingus5150]

People like to complain.

 

[GameSeeker]

Amen Brother Amir0x.

Expecting "new gameplay" from every game is nonsense. Refinement is the key to success in many genres. For example, racing games and sports games are all about refinement, not reinventions of the genre.

If someone says The Order:1886 is a "Gears clone" I take that as very high praise. Gear of War is a best selling series and Microsoft loved the gameplay so much they paid a very, very, large sum of money for it.

 

[jetjevons]

How many threads are we going to have based on the new Order gameplay? This is two so far.

Read the OP.

 

[chicagocubsfan]

I don't get this argument at all. This same sort of nonsense was spouted at Infamous for some reason.

 

[Touch]

I know some people that say this and don't even play video games anymore or very rarely.

 

[Penguin]

Ultimately this time around, the technology hasn't opened any doors to do things that simply weren't possible before, unlike previous generations.

I think this is what it is

Each gen transition we are sold on these new consoles being able to do things we haven't been able to do before.

Most of the time, we end up with prettier versions of games we've played before, but there are those games that raise above the rest.

The problem so far is I don't think we've had that game yet, and it doesn't really look like we're getting that game this year.

People want that one game that really does define a new gen, an idea or a design that was unimaginable before

 

[Bad_Boy]

Agreed. I mean The Last of Us isnt really doing anything new. But damn if it isnt one of the most amazing games ever released.

 

[Brazil]

I'd be in love with The Order if it was refining anything, but Vanquish exists.

You won't ever be able to impress me new coats of paint on the same house, even if your game is good. If it is, I'll play it and enjoy it, and then promptly forget it afterwards. But I won't be part of the mindless hype machine.

 

[Superflat]

People don't know what they want.

 

[SolsticeZero]

Testify!

 

[Paracelsus]

There's only so much you can more-of-the-same something great, let alone more-of-the-same in general. Resident Evil was done and buried by RE3, they remade and polished the original then moved on to the next level. RE4 came out of it, and it lasted a good one entry, because it went downhill from RE5 onwards.

It's not the gamers' fault the PS360Wii generation lasted way past its expiration date and now people are unimpressed about a lot of things.

 

[KingFire]

People like you is the reason we have a slightly more refined Call of Duty game every year. But hey! Who cares about innovation?

Call of Duty is a standard FPS that is, surprisingly, well made. Is this the future of gaming that you want? Standard well-made games in standard genres?

 

[Katzenjammer]

The only title I've played lately that truly "felt next-gen" was Pikmin 3. The challenge mode in the game requires you to macromanage on the gamepad while micromanaging with the wiimote+nunchuck, and it was a new experience to me that hasn't been possible to do before.

But generally most new games seem rather iterative, and even if that's to be expected so early into the new generation, it has been a bit disappointing considering the hype leading up to the new console launches.

 

[Toki767]

The logic those people use are weird. I could understand if they claim something like genre fatigue after all the FPS and TPS games last gen but to say it's the same thing but prettier graphics is pretty ignorant.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

It's just silly, what the hell does next gen gameplay even mean? We\ve been playing the same genres for generations. No one complained about the gameplay during transition from the PS2 and PS3.

We've been playing fewer of the same specific takes on genres more often. It's easy enough to go back to every previous generation and look at all of the different takes on roughly similar gametypes and see how they've gotten closer and closer together, only choosing to really amplify the visuals and 'immersive' or cinematic nature of their presentation. Things are becoming more narrow at the top end and those games are precisely the ones that are being heavily promoted in front of and for these new consoles. The more novel twists on familiar games and more greatly expanded evolutions of them are still in the distance, many having been delayed to next year or simply never having had a solid release period to look forward to. This year, apart from to-be-announced games (probably at E3), is looking very last gen with a new coat of paint and very thin, on top of that.

 

[K' Dash]

Amir0x, I hate you, but I agree with you