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[Dragonborn]

I'll tell you what needs to be done.

The people who get hiring level jobs (producers/ creative directors etc.) in the gaming industry. Should really make an effort to hire more women, and actively discourage sexual harassment within the work place. Unfortunately a lot of men are intimidated by smart women, so it will take some time.

On the flip side of the coin, I also feel that more women have to start their own companies and do the hiring, so they can be in charge and at the same time also work on these issues.

The issue isn't the just hiring process. It's just there are a lot more males who into the field so obviously there's more males being employed. More women need to get into the field. And even then, the job should go to whoever is more qualified, in my opinion. Male or Female. Which is why getting more women into the field is the first step, I think.

 

[The Librarian]

As I wrote, its not that I'm doubting the veracity of their experiences, its just that I feel a hard line needs to be drawn between problems occurring within industry workplaces, and those that flood in from the internet.

I feel like the two are being conflated and in so doing is creating a perception that the treatment of women within the industry by male-coworkers is exceptionally bad.

Creating such an impression is doing noone any favours, particularly if its discouraging young women from bringing their talents to bear within the business.

Both problems stem from the same cultural problems of women being less valued than men.

 

[The Technomancer]

How can we go about changing the culture surrounding this?

Its a big endeavor. If we're talking about the issues of sexism in general one of the biggest things we can do is fight to end the parts of our culture that view sex as something to be obtained instead of an act between people, something that in the process inherently alienates the parties involved. There are damaging messages we're sending to our young girls as well, but if we restrict ourselves in this discussion to the problems young boys are facing I think this is one of the biggest ones, especially because of how much this specific perspective is fed to our children and even adults.

When people talk about "objectification" at the most basic level they're discussing this alienation, this displacement that results in sex as something you "get" and a woman's appearance (and even her existence) as purely functional for male arousal and release

I think a lot of misogyny, even if its not directly sexual in nature (although it so often is) stems from these issues

 

[Mesoian]

The issue isn't the hiring process. It's just there are a lot more males who into the field so obviously there's more males being employed. More women need to get into the field.

And more women need to be told that, should they enter the field, they won't be ostracized by people who aren't used to them not being there.

 

[Thorakai]

I think people think such harassment has to be overt. Here's a recent example I noticed the other day:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=858835

once the gif of the woman with red hair was posted, a number of posts dedicated to "Who is that girl" and sexual innuendos popped up. What did that have to do with the conversation? It's subtle, but it happens all the time.

This happened so much in the FIFA threads. Its fine to find someone pretty, but it happened way too much and it starts getting weird when people always ask for names/dig up their social media accounts.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

We would have less of a caveman society, isn't that good enough?

I'd like to agree, but I'm not entirely certain... beCAUSE:
There are by far fewer female computer science students. Most of those will be getting good jobs wherever they want. How many of them want to be game designers? The same portion of women that play non-mobile games?!?? That's not many. That means that game developing companies had to hire pretty much EVERY woman on the market to fill their ranks, while super hard desired game-dev jobs at cool companies for males would become even more scarce. Inevitably that would make the average male game developer in larger companies a lot more qualified than the average female game developer. Which again might very well cause tension and lead to the same amount of male-chauvinism.

 

[Concept17]

The first quote in the OP...

How does someone like that have a professional career? Are they seemingly normal people in every other regard?

 

[BennyBlanco]

I guess it's easy for me or anyone to say it wouldn't really bother me and I would just go on with my day and chalk it up to being part of the job. As a dude I really just can't fathom what actually dealing with it is like.

 

[Cheech]

There really is no great solution. How do I know? The same shit happens in Hollywood.

The ratio of male to female directors working on big budget movies is abysmal, and that's putting it lightly. Men have effectively locked them out, and there are a billion articles about it such as the one I linked.

In gaming there really isn't something like the DGA (director's guild) to even lobby on their behalf, so you get more women working in games. Which is great, but then they get to deal with torrents of abuse from their (largely juvenile) customer base. And even worse, their juvenile-minded peers.

I can only say that I see things slowly getting better from what they used to be. There is a very large outcry from the industry and the public on having no female playable characters in Assassin's Creed Unity; nobody would have batted an eye about it 5 years ago.

As far as the abuse listed in the OP, well... watch the movie 42 or read up on Jackie Robinson and all the shit he had to endure. People want to work with and hear ideas first from people they identify with, and only when they lose preconceived notions on race/gender/religion/etc. will they come around. Trailblazers breaking into traditionally white male-dominated areas will always have to deal with the imbecile horde until it is generally accepted that women are every bit as good at directing movies or creating videogames as men. It just takes time.

In the meantime, if you are an influence on a child's life, smack them down when you hear negative talk about anyone not like them. Childhood really where it all begins and lax parenting is why negative stereotypical attitudes persist.

 

[erragal]

All you have to do is watch the twitch commentary whenever Sheever was shown on camera during TI4.

Being a woman in this industry is unfathomably challenging. Indirect and overt sexism abounds. No matter how strong a characterization a female possesses she will still be judged based on image and sexuality. Her popularity will be directly based on imagw/sexuality.

I don't understand why so many boys are threatened by women being interested in games. If there aren't an equal number of women passionate and excited about what you love to do then it's always going to be a challenge finding an understanding and equally fervent partner if you value shared interests.

Then again I was always the guy that dated the girls who showed up at Fridat Night Magic...not the one that sat in the corner avoiding them.

Hell back in the mudding days gender spread was -far- closer to 50/50. On an MU* codebase it maybe skewed towards 60/40 female. Yet the MMO player base still loves to joke that women don't play mmos.

 

[Dragonborn]

And more women need to be told that, should they enter the field, they won't be ostracized by people who aren't used to them not being there.

Exactly. And by having more women choose to go into the field, they're no longer a minority in said field, and hopefully the discrimination will start going down. That carries over into employment and eventually, the hope would be that this would help curb the problem. It'll make it less male-dominated.

 

[Zakalwe]

If you honestly aren't sure that harassment, threats, etc are more targeted at women than men, especially in male-dominated fields such as the game industry and especially on the internet where there are few consequences, please do us all a favor and read this thread and the linked article: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=748748

I walk down the street, I don't get bothered. Ever.

My gf does and she gets guys whistle, make comments, even chase after her and offer to take her out.

There's a difference between the sexes and the attneiton they receive. That much is clear.

The problem is that, from what I can tell, the brunt of this abuse is made anonymously or via social media from random people, and I'm not sure what can be done about this kind of abuse. It's the seething underbelly, the stuff people wouldn’t say at work but would from behind the anonymity or detachment of a computer screen.

This kind of thing will always be there, and the internet has given it an outlet. I have no idea how you’d even begin to Police that.

 

[cerulily]

Anita Sarkeeson videos don't have comments, and the people who are usually the most vile in conversations like this one usually lambaste her about it because they don't have somewhere specific to spew their vitriol.

because the comments they post on her videos always looked like this

 

[mr2t]

If you honestly aren't sure that harassment, threats, etc are more targeted at women than men, especially in male-dominated fields such as the game industry and especially on the internet where there are few consequences, please do us all a favor and read this thread and the linked article: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=748748

I'm not too sure there's a huge bias in the video game industry over who gets death threats. There are plenty of gamers that will rage against anything they don't like. I think the kardashian mobile game shows how the hate has no bias as well. Doing a Google search for "death threats against game developers" I see cod devs, notch, league of legends, halo devs, flappy bird etc getting constant death threats. Seems like every Dev will be a victim at some point.

 

[Pimpwerx]

It starts with raising awareness. I think we're on the right path there... beyond that, though, it's a process that could take years.

It's been happening since before the civil rights movement and women's suffrage. It's a gradual adjustment. There's going to be a baseline level of hate though. Like the 30% or whatever that always vote republican or democrat, you'll always have assholes. I don't expect it to change drastically in my lifetime though. Homophobia has changed a lot, but race and gender have only seen gradual changes since I can remember. It's going to be generations after me before there's any point where private thoughts have caught up. PEACE.

 

[Bigmac1910]

The issue isn't the just hiring process. It's just there are a lot more males who into the field so obviously there's more males being employed. More women need to get into the field. And even then, the job should go to whoever is more qualified, in my opinion. Male or Female. Which is why getting more women into the field is the first step, I think.

I agree, but, while key positions must go to the most qualified person, other positions can go to more women even if they have a little less experience than another male applicant. Is it fair? Probably not, but you got to start some place in order to move forward.

EDIT: Spelling

 

[Into]

How can we go about changing the culture surrounding this?

When its within the game industry, then nothing.

Talking about it on forums only goes so far, we do not have any names so we cannot even boycott any company's products or do anything. Its all a blur

And even if we did have a name or a studio, just how effective would something like a boycott even be?

Its depressing, the only hope is that future generations will know better and just look back at us with contempt. You have to hope kids today are more aware of this and grow up to do better than what "we" did.

After all we did better than our ancestors in regards to sex and race, hopefully that bodes well for the future.

 

[Mesoian]

because the comments they post on her videos always looked like this

Totally. She's right for doing it.

 

[KissVibes]

So their anecdotal evidence that it's happening EVERYWHERE is more legit than my anecdotal evidence?.

Yes, I'd say yours is worth less.

Attach your name and resume to your anecdotal evidence.

Yes I am dubious of her claim because I talk to women too. I've also been in the industry for 10 years, worked with many women at different companies all over the US, and have yet to see or hear from my colleagues of this kind of harassment.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying she's lying about her expirence.

Nor do I think she's trying to deceive people, I think she genuinely feels like it's rampant.

I'm saying that she's conflating her experiences with being a problem endemic of the video game industry as a whole.

If she's allowed to use her personal experiences to talk on the subject, why do you feel that am I not allowed to?

Maybe it's because they don't want to talk to you about it? Probably because you'd say stupid shit like 'Well I didn't see it' or the classic 'That doesn't always happen.'

 

[jetjevons]

It's an anime version of my original Eddie Campbell Bacchus.

I like it. A lot.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Noone is calling anyone a liar, the point is that hateful tweets and postings are undeniably a common problem on the internet. The evidence is there in black and white for all to see.

That being said, there is far less evidence that workplaces within the industry are populated by extreme sexists and misogynists. If it was that pervasive, I assure you based on my experience at many studios over the years, people would get called on it.

Bottom line is that, at least in my opinion, those that spew hatred and bile on the internet are minority of a large population. The games industry itself is comparatively tiny, so anyone with such an extreme personality defecit would immediately be very apparent.

Could you explain the difference between an extreme sexist/misogynist and a run-of-the-mill, normal sexist/misogynist?

 

[Mesoian]

I walk down the street, I don't get bothered. Ever.

My gf does and she gets guys whistle, make comments, even chase after her and offer to take her out.

There's a difference between the sexes and the attneiton they receive. That much is clear.

The problem is that, from what I can tell, the brunt of this abuse is made anonymously or via social media from random people, and I'm not sure what can be done about this kind of abuse. It's the seething underbelly, the stuff people wouldn’t say at work but would from behind the anonymity or detachment of a computer screen.

This kind of thing will always be there, and the internet has given it an outlet. I have no idea how you’d even begin to Police that.

The content creators need to police it. If people are posting shitty hurtful things on CNN, CNN needs to take steps to remove those people. Freedom of Speech doesn't apply in private avenues like these, so the owners of such avenues need to step up and let people know that said shit will not be tolerated.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Do people think Game Development is a hostile work environment here? How about Game Coverage or Publishing? Just curious. The industry, especially development is very small.

 

[Briarios]

I've met women who I could tell were threatened by me for being a man... but i've met easily an equal number that aren't at all... my boss, as an example, is intimidating as all hell (not by looks by attitude).

I get that women have to be more nervous because they aren't driven by testosterone, I just don't see the attacks on women around me that I hear are happening everywhere all the time. Apologies if I can't help! But I can't do much if I don't see anything other than keep talking about how awesome women are. :

Dude, listen -- they're not nervous because they aren't "driven by testosterone," they are nervous because there is a serious and persistent threat to them. 1 in 5 women report they have been sexually assaulted or someone attempted to assault them. That's not some tiny number -- as a woman, you have a 20% chance in America to be in the receiving end of a sexual assault.

Did you ever wonder why women don't just turn guys down face to face? Why they often waffle or say they'll get back to you or give guys a fake number? Because saying no to a man is dangerous for them

Keep your blinders on if you want, argue that your opinion is equally valid to all the facts people are presenting -- we both know the reality.

Just a final nite, you don't have to be able to see something happening to have the intellectual capacity to realize it is. You can't see gravity, but we see the effects constantly. It's the same with the harassment of women, you may not see it occurring, but the effects are ongoing.

 

[Zakalwe]

The content creators need to police it. If people are posting shitty hurtful things on CNN, CNN needs to take steps to remove those people. Freedom of Speech doesn't apply in public avenues like these, so the owners of such avenues need to step up and let people know that said shit will not be tolerated.

And how do you ban someone from the internet?

 

[The Librarian]

Do people think Game Development is a hostile work environment here? How about Game Coverage or Publishing? Just curious.

I love games. I'd be worried about getting harassed if I got a job in the industry, if that answers your question.

Of course, I'm worried about getting harassed when it comes to any field. Especially the television industry, which I want to have a career in.

 

[matrixman92]

People wont change, sorry, but I feel it is the truth. There is absolutely no way that problems like this will be solved as long as the internet exists. I had people tell me to kill myself, call me a faggot, just name it in high school...kind of just learned to shrug it off. I know this is about females in the video game industry, but same kind of bullying I guess. Some people just consider others not valuable, not dependent on gender

 

[Mesoian]

And how do you ban someone from the internet?

You can't, but you ban them from the little part of the internet that you're responsible for.

Because you ARE responsible for it.

(royale you by the way, clearly YOU are not responsible for what CNN does, in this example).

 

[Felix Lighter]

The people suggesting that these discussions are pointless because nothing will ever change, I will say that my perspective on these issues has changed dramatically after reading articles like this and listening to a few talks. I was not aware of how prevalent bigotry, sexism and racism still was today, I don't experience it. I didn't understand how hidden and insidious a lot of the cultural factors are and how they were impacting the way I thought about issues like these. Spreading awareness makes a difference. It's not a quick fix, it's not going to help with everyone but it does effectively change perspectives for those open minded enough to listen.

 

[Krejlooc]

This happened so much in the FIFA threads. Its fine to find someone pretty, but it happened way too much and it starts getting weird when people always ask for names/dig up their social media accounts.

Thats what it comes off to me as well. Its vaguely e-stalkerish.

 

[The Librarian]

I've met women who I could tell were threatened by me for being a man... but i've met easily an equal number that aren't at all... my boss, as an example, is intimidating as all hell (not by looks by attitude).

I get that women have to be more nervous because they aren't driven by testosterone, I just don't see the attacks on women around me that I hear are happening everywhere all the time. Apologies if I can't help! But I can't do much if I don't see anything other than keep talking about how awesome women are. :\

Wha-what? While I wouldn't want testosterone in my system (well, no more so than needed), I can assure my nervousness does not, in anyway, stem from my "lack of testosterone."

Seriously, dude?

 

[Sai-kun]

The people suggesting that these discussions are pointless because nothing will ever change, I will say that my perspective on these issues has changed dramatically after reading articles like this and listening to a few talks. I was not aware of how prevalent bigotry, sexism and racism still was today, I don't experience it. I didn't understand how hidden and insidious a lot of the cultural factors are and how they were impacting the way I thought about issues like these. Spreading awareness makes a difference. It's not a quick fix, it's not going to help with everyone but it does effectively change perspectives for those open minded enough to listen.

This is great to read. And I hope there are more folks like you on here. I hope the people who get banned for posting "who cares" in threads similar to this have their mind expanded a bit, and realize that yeah, stuff like this actually matters.

 

[Admiral Bone to Pick]

One thing I've noticed is that if you say something controversial as a man, people tend to attack your opinion. If you say something controversial as a woman, people tend to attack you personally (particularly physical appearance). God forbid an older overweight woman wants to have an opinion in this world about anything.

 

[Jobbs]

I worry about the human race sometimes.

 

[ishibear]

Regarding those seeking ways to take action -- I think men, including myself, can be proactive about this in two ways:

- reconsidering our own behavior and language
- calling out examples of blatant sexism and/or harassment targeted at either gender within our community

It's time for the awful concept of "White Knighting" to die. Assuming a man calls out harassment or defends a woman solely for the purposes of securing an advantage diminishes all parties involved in a confrontation.

If you see harassment on social media, report the user. Take the time. Speak out against them. Doing nothing is tacit approval of the harassment. Take pride in being accused of defending someone.

Beautiful. Thank you.

Yes I am dubious of her claim because I talk to women too. I've also been in the industry for 10 years, worked with many women at different companies all over the US, and have yet to see or hear from my colleagues of this kind of harassment.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying she's lying about her expirence.

Nor do I think she's trying to deceive people, I think she genuinely feels like it's rampant.

I'm saying that she's conflating her experiences with being a problem endemic of the video game industry as a whole.

If she's allowed to use her personal experiences to talk on the subject, why do you feel that am I not allowed to?

This isn't about you, that's why.

You always come into these topics and whine about women wanting more action to be taken against these sexist and cruel treatment, only to whine about yourself and how the world is around you.

I'm so sorry you have to think outside the box but it can't hurt can it?

What I'd love to see from you is "its not happening around me, from what I've seen, but maybe that's because more action has been taken or there aren't as many creeps around here. I'm shocked this is happening elsewhere but if there's anything I can do, I'll do it and I'll even ask my lady friends if they're experienced this. That way I can be more supportive."

 

[Zakalwe]

You can't, but you ban them from the little part of the internet that you're responsible for.

Because you ARE responsible for it.

(royale you by the way, clearly YOU are not responsible for what CNN does, in this example).

Except those kinds of bans are very easy to workaround. It'll help for sure, but it's not going to remove the issue. Very likely, in the cases where the banned person doesn't have the knowledge to workaround the ban, it will only deflect it.

 

[Mesoian]

I love games. I'd be worried about getting harassed if I got a job in the industry, if that answers your question.

Of course, I'm worried about getting harassed when it comes to any field. Especially the television industry, which I want to have a career in.

Tertiary: a friend of mine was asked to be the host of bi weekly anime con youtube show. She made up a bevy of reasons to tell people why she turned them down, but ultimately, it was because she knew she wouldn't be able to actively handle the bullshit that would be thrown at her from the unchecked internet.

And I can't blame her.

Except those kinds of bans are very easy to workaround. It'll help for sure, but it's not going to remove the issue. Very likely, it will only deflect it.

Then you keep banning them, again and again, each and every time you see it.

Because it's your responsibility. And, as I said before, the answer is not "do nothing, because it's hard." Change is hard.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

This is great to read. And I hope there are more folks like you on here. I hope the people who get banned for posting "who cares" in threads similar to this have their mind expanded a bit, and realize that yeah, stuff like this actually matters.

Yeah, things changed for me when I finally sat down, shut up, and LISTENED. That's the first step. I stopped talking about MY insignificant stupid-ass experienced and listened to others'.

 

[The Technomancer]

One thing I've noticed is that if you say something controversial as a man, people tend to attack your opinion. If you say something controversial as a woman, people tend to attack you personally (particularly physical appearance). God forbid an older overweight woman wants to have an opinion in this world about anything.

Absolutely. Men deal with harassment. Women deal with harassment specifically targeting their appearance or the fact that they're a woman

 

[leadbelly]

I'm not really sure what can be done other than women phoning the police if threats become particularly overt. The same goes for men as well.

Patrick Klepek did a good talk about this on TED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydw__QSy8pE

Also an article he did about the guy who made Flappy Bird who got thousands of death threats and abusive tweets because he decided to remove the game from the mobile marketplace.
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/our-internet-empathy-problem/1100-4862/

It is a common problem, which doesn't have an easy solution I feel. I suppose one way of limiting the abuse would be if social media became much more strict on this issue and started IP banning people. Although, I don't really know what their policies are on this.

once the gif of the woman with red hair was posted, a number of posts dedicated to "Who is that girl" and sexual innuendos popped up. What did that have to do with the conversation? It's subtle, but it happens all the time.

I'm not really sure what to make of this. I find it a bit odd really because there is a very obvious fact that men are attracted to women. It is easy to understand why someone might be interested to know who the girl is simply because they are attracted to them.

Is it inherently sexist to express your own sexuality? Where exactly is the line? It just seems a weird topic of discussion for me because, where is that line?

 

[Krejlooc]

because the comments they post on her videos always looked like this

Aside from how vile those comments are, they are also so unoriginal. "Hurr hurr get in the kitchen," sick 50 year joke duder. You sure showed her.

 

[stufte]

Yes, I'd say yours is worth less.

Sweet.

Attach your name and resume to your anecdotal evidence.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=2651024

Maybe it's because they don't want to talk to you about it?

Maybe. But I doubt it.

Probably because you'd say stupid shit like 'Well I didn't see it' or the classic 'That doesn't always happen.'

You're just great.

 

[Fehyd]

Both problems stem from the same cultural problems of women being less valued than men.

I'd say it's not about being less valuable, but so valuable that they are turned into trophies or objects of worship. If a woman isn't a person, but an object, it's easier to treat her as such.

 

[Gbraga]

It's so weird reading the actual text they receive, it's just such an alien concept to me that anyone would actually write those things, it's just inconceivable, why would anyone think that way?

I don't get many kinds of discrimination, but this kind of hostility really confuses me. Just... why?

 

[Kamina]

It does happen
Just have to take a look at the twitter accounts of the call of duty community managers

Wow, why the fuck do people talk like that given the fact that anonymity online is less and less possible; wait screw that, why do people talk like that at all?
This is sick.

 

[Briarios]

People wont change, sorry, but I feel it is the truth. There is absolutely no way that problems like this will be solved as long as the internet exists. I had people tell me to kill myself, call me a faggot, just name it in high school...kind of just learned to shrug it off. I know this is about females in the video game industry, but same kind of bullying I guess. Some people just consider others not valuable, not dependent on gender

It's not remotely the same kind of bullying. For one thing, women experience actual physical assaults at a level far beyond men. And saying people won't change is basically saying you won't change and you don't have the courage to call people out on their BS. Things can change, things have changed. It changes when people take it seriously and finally accept that it's a problem.

 

[Thorakai]

This should never be happening. Please PM a mod if someone does this.

Got it.

 

[partyphone]

People wont change, sorry, but I feel it is the truth. There is absolutely no way that problems like this will be solved as long as the internet exists. I had people tell me to kill myself, call me a faggot, just name it in high school...kind of just learned to shrug it off. I know this is about females in the video game industry, but same kind of bullying I guess. Some people just consider others not valuable, not dependent on gender

People change a lot. look at gay rights. it wasn't long ago that a democrat president enacted don't ask don't tell and now look at how many states have legalized gay marriage. Then look st the stats on how young people view LGBT issues. and it didn't happen because gay people sat down and shut up.

Do not sit down and shut up about this issue. the children using the internet right now will learn from us and the more of them who learn the right lesson the brighter the future will look.

 

[The Librarian]

Maybe. But I doubt it.

Why? From my experience in the working world, there's a lot women don't talk to their male colleagues about.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

I love games. I'd be worried about getting harassed if I got a job in the industry, if that answers your question.

Of course, I'm worried about getting harassed when it comes to any field. Especially the television industry, which I want to have a career in.

I really don't want people to think that and I feel that a silent majority are amazing, creative people. I can't vouch for other parts of the industry but developers I know are some of the most open people. My wife and I have been working in game development/production for almost twenty years combined (jeezus) and met all sorts of incredible talent.
What always surprised me is the diversity not in triple A games on consoles but in companies that create solely for Mobile.

TV industry, like manufacturing, I know nothing about but TV production is all about networking and starting literately from the bottom and working up. There is a lot of trust needed when editing or working with someone. Risk aversion is a big factor.