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[Jobbs]

Those are (high res emulator shots of) actual DS games, which was a platform with relatively similar technical limitations (in terms of polycount and texture variety) to the PS1/N64, but implemented without some of the major flaws of those consoles, and coded to by devs with much more experience at working in 3D.

Late-gen PS1 stuff isn't that too dissimilar, aside from the unavoidable technical limitations of the platform.

That's pretty much exactly the quality level that people are talking about when they discuss this subject (although personally, I still think that low-res rendering has a certain charm to it).

DS isn't a "retro" system. The idea presented in the topic is N64/PSX era as a target asthetic for new retro inspired games -- which I think is a terrible idea. Whether DS games look good (some do, sure) is another topic all together. PSX and N64 represented, in my opinion, an era when games were, more often than not, hideous to look at.

I'm curious Jobbs – I agree that all first generation of 3D consoles (PS1/N64/Saturn) had issues – but what about arcade and PC? What do you think of Model2 arcade games and early software rendered PC stuff like Quake1/2 or Homeworld?

Also, Metroid didn't look like that either on an actual screen. The aspect ratio isn't even correct in those shots you posted earlier.

In general I am not a fan of most any early 3D -- I think the form went through severe growing pains and didn't become particularly tolerable until the XB360 era (I know a lot will disagree with me, but even during the gamecube era I found the games sort of ugly for the most part, and played now I find them intolerable -- whereas I can and do still play SNES). N64 and PSX are 3D at its worst, though.

I recognize not everyone will agree with me on these points. Re. The Super Metroid screens, I just did a quick google search and grabbed some. Suffice it to say, I know what the game looks like. Five feet away from me right now there's a 27 inch CRT with a Super Nintendo hooked up and Super Metroid in the cartridge slot.

 

[Lomax]

Hopefully never.

First post nailed it. Early polygon art was horrible and best forgotten. Honestly, what annoys me more is how so many games seem to think "retro pixel art" is supposed to be crappy.

 

[kyser73]

I'd like some nice, super sampled low-poly stuff at high framerates, not a actual recreation of PS1 era graphics.

 

[evilromero]

A lot of the commentary here about how it'd be lazy, they could easily use better graphics along with the same gameplay, and that they'd just be conforming to old limitations for nostalgia's sake when we've moved on is reminding me of way back in 2008 when a lot of people were angry with Capcom for making Mega Man 9 an NES-styled game instead of using SNES or modern HD sprite graphics.

Exactly. You would've been laughed out of the room in the 90s if you suggested that games could look like 8-bit classics. People had "moved on" then. Yet, people's lack of foresight is the main issue here. It's going to happen whether they like it or not.

 

[beril]

Yeah, even something like Shovel Knight takes liberties here and there.

That's a massive understatement. Honestly I'm a bit annoyed by that approach (still looking forward to the EU release though), where they strongly claim it's based on the NES capabilities but ignore every limitation to the point where it looks nothing like it and the few things that are still based on NES limitations feels out of place.

Nearly every sprite is using too many colours. Yes there's a precent, we all know about Megamans face, but you can't just add colours to every sprite and still claim it's NES-like. The NES could never display that many sprites and no games looked like that. But the most obvious detractor is the paralax layers. They kindof glossed over that in their gamasutra article, claiming "This felt like the next technological step the NES would make so it didn't feel out of place to us.". Which is just silly considering what we know about later consoles and the actual hardware power required. Even the PC-Engine only had one BG layer, and even SNES couldn't do that many layers, and it completely changes how the games looks and feels to the point where calling its graphics NES-like, or even 8-bit becomes meaningless.

 

[Dicer]

Hopefully never.

Boom...

 

[Morrigan Stark]

So much hate for that look in this thread. Whatever happened to the fans of this thread? ^^

I agree having jaggies and low-res and pop-ups and pop-ins for its own sake wouldn't be interesting, but well done low poly art could potentially look as cool as retro pixel art. Personally I'm very tired of crappy pixel art myself. Shovel Knight looks good, but some of those new "retro" games are complete eyesores. Basically this:

Honestly, what annoys me more is how so many games seem to think "retro pixel art" is supposed to be crappy.

Hahaha spot on.

Hey guys have some Soul Reaver:

This is from Soul Reaver 2 (PS2 era), actually. I agree Soul Reaver aged nicely though.

Still need the middle ground .... low poly bakcgrounds with sprites

I fucking love this.

 

[Dragoon En Regalia]

As for games with polygonal scenes and sprite-animated objects, Dark Savior's a great, solid-looking example:

This screen almost looks 2D from a distance, with the subtle black outlines on models and 2D art alike. But, in a game then known for its camera controls, there's enough of a 3D feel that you can think back and forth between the pixel art and polygon paradigms.

 

[arhra]

DS isn't a "retro" system. The idea presented in the topic is N64/PSX era as a target asthetic for new retro inspired games -- which I think is a terrible idea. Whether DS games look good (some do, sure) is another topic all together. PSX and N64 represented, in my opinion, an era when games were, more often than not, hideous to look at.

You're completely missing the point. Which is that high-end PS1 games look very much like those DS games. Just take a look at Threads of Fate running on ePSXe, for example (which doesn't even fix some of the more annoying PSX hardware limitations - the wobbly polygons, lack of z-buffer, and warping textures almost definitely wouldn't be something a modern faux-retro indie game would reproduce).

Yeah, a lot of PS1/N64 games looked godawful, no arguments there. But so did a lot of NES and SNES games, and no-one uses that as a reason why nobody should bother trying to ape 8/16bit art styles (at least, not any more).

 

[JordanN]

So much hate for that look in this thread. Whatever happened to the fans of this thread? ^^

That was done as a tribute though. Literally a "what if x game was made for the original Playstation?".

It kind of reminds me of this contest.

 

[Popstar]

.

 

[Jobbs]

You're completely missing the point. Which is that high-end PS1 games look very much like those DS games. Just take a look at Threads of Fate running on ePSXe, for example (which doesn't even fix some of the more annoying PSX hardware limitations - the wobbly polygons, lack of z-buffer, and warping textures almost definitely wouldn't be something a modern faux-retro indie game would reproduce).

Yeah, a lot of PS1/N64 games looked godawful, no arguments there. But so did a lot of NES and SNES games, and no-one uses that as a reason why nobody should bother trying to ape 8/16bit art styles (at least, not any more).

I can't think of a single polygonal PS1 or N64 game I'd like to see used as a target asthetic for new games. The example you gave -- Maybe some people think that looks good, I simply don't.

While there may be sort of neat looking, low poly 3D games out there or coming out, I don't think new games that actually look like PSX/N64 games will ever be a big craze. I certainly hope not, at least.

 

[Gilby]

Does this count?

 

[Doc Holliday]

N64/ps1?

Can we get to the 16 bit era first? Where are the retro games that look like cybernator, contra 4, and flashback. I feel like indie retro games are still stuck in the late Atari/early nes era.

 

[Sami+]

Low poly, but with really clean textures and modern rendering techniques - especially with lighting. Sky Rogue and Drift Stage are both gorgeous, and the PS1 models in Ground Zeroes looked really cool in the Fox Engine.

Mixing the old with the new can make for really charming styles, imo.

Oh my good gracious how did I forget to post my most favorite recent memory example, Boson X.

Dude thanks for posting this

game's fucking awesome

 

[radios shipping overview]

N64/ps1?

Can we get to the 16 bit era first? Where are the retro games that look like cybernator, contra 4, and flashback. I feel like indie retro games are still stuck in the late Atari/early nes era.

Retro-themed games have hopped back and forth across the 8/16-bit boundary so often that "8-bit" has come to refer to anything vaguely pixelated.

despite a couple of good games, it was a *TERRIBLE* era in gaming. best forgotten.

More like: one of the most creative eras in gaming, when development hit a sweet spot where there was enough power to do a lot of interesting things, yet costs weren't yet in the stratosphere, and there was still enough money to go around for plenty of odd projects.

 

[Xane]

I want some Super-FX-like games first!

 

[Burai]

First post nailed it. Early polygon art was horrible and best forgotten. Honestly, what annoys me more is how so many games seem to think "retro pixel art" is supposed to be crappy.

No. They think it's supposed to be cheap.

People here are misunderstanding why most devs go for the "NES+" aesthetic. People aren't making their games look 8 bit because it's cool, they are doing it because it's cheap and quick. You can make it look cool but that's a byproduct of decent art design, it's not the primary objective.

Development teams ballooned in size with every new generation and, for most indie developers a SNES, let alone PSone, sized art team is beyond what they can afford. Pixel art doesn't come cheap and the more detail you add and the better the animation, so the costs rise and no amount of easy access dev tools can overcome that.

 

[Dead Early]

Never?

Most games with "retro" graphics are a simple case of laziness. It'd probably be harder to recreate a PSX/N64 look than just have shoddy 3D.

 

[Paracelsus]

No, but gaf should make it so that it becomes illegal in case they think of doing so, just in case.

It's pretty much 2015, PS2 graphics should be doable by 4 people in a garage.

 

[Jobbs]

More like: one of the most creative eras in gaming, when development hit a sweet spot where there was enough power to do a lot of interesting things, yet costs weren't yet in the stratosphere, and there was still enough money to go around for plenty of odd projects.

while I agree that games were more diverse then than now, if you want to go by that standard as an important part of how you rate eras, I think PS2 is probably the golden era -- where we had much more tolerable presentations, but still diverse and creative games.

 

[Celine]

If it's solid 3D and not PS1 shitty 3D than I m fine.
Though the problem with this retro inspired games ia always the gameplay, because often they are pale copies that lack imagination abd aound core mechanics.

 

[Bishop89]

indies are flooding us with retro platformers.

Step up your game and bring us 3d stuff already.

 

[Jobbs]

No, but gaf should make it so that it becomes illegal in case they think of doing so, just in case.

It's pretty much 2015, PS2 graphics should be doable by 4 people in a garage.

Just as an incidental point of interest, all that and more is already possible, especially now with the efficacy of Unity.

This is made almost completely by one person.

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

What's this?

 

[Paracelsus]

Indeed, can't wait for someone to make a Mario 64-killer, it's long overdue.

The jump will happen because drawing and animating sprites is a craft that is getting lost very quickly, they will have to skip the NeoGeo generation, sorta, though a game with art by Orioto might be cool.

 

[Jay Sosa]

Hopefully never.

yep

 

[The Dear Leader]

This is more of the type of stuff I want to see. Sprites in a 3D environment.

http://www.wingsofstnazaire.com/

 

[jb1234]

What's the third game from the top in the OP? Looks fun! I recognize all the others.

 

[Orniletter]

The generation best left forgotten. It would be like doing retro 2600 style graphics for 2D. Nobody wants that. Ever. Easily the worst console generation.

Avatarquote.jpeg

 

[Garland7G]

Hopefully never.

This.
I think for an indie game to stand out, it needs 1 of 2 things.
1. Awesome gameplay.
2. Awesome art style.
A truly great game will have both plus story and music

 

[Jay Sosa]

despite a couple of good games, it was a *TERRIBLE* era in gaming. best forgotten.

I think in all the time I spent here I never disagreed more with a post. Basically all we get since the PS1/N64 days are just graphical updates (despite GTA).

Couple of good games?

The generation best left forgotten. It would be like doing retro 2600 style graphics for 2D. Nobody wants that. Ever. Easily the worst console generation.

Wow, just....wow.

I can't even tell if you guys are serious or too young to know what you missed.

 

[Zalman]

Even some of the best games from that era don't hold up very well today.

 

[Widge]

I like to think of the indie scene creating either perfected or delicious twists on the 16bit 2D era.

As such, I can't wait for people to hit up the PSone era. If only to see someone pick up the jRPG baton that Square left behind there and create the definitive 2D backdrop/3D battle engine/no voice acting jRPG.

I think there is a market for it, and the lower technology barrier wouldn't make the entire thing cost prohibitive.

 

[Garland7G]

Even some of the best games from that era don't hold up very well today.

You had to live through the era to appreciate it. Having said that, the graphics just don't hold up today as they did then.
You have to imagine, 3D was new when these consoles came out, so that was the big thing. The hook. And the graphics were a lot better than previous gens. Games like Soul Caliber were amazing.

 

[hateradio]

I think I find this more visually appealing than today's photorealistic racers. It's beautiful.

If they throw in some music in the vain of Full Power aka Full Throttle: All-American Racing, I'd be into it. That game literally had one racing song, but it was so good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3-XtAPf7VDc#t=165

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=onzoB9q5ziY#t=298

 

[Popstar]

.

 

[Carn82]

I guess a lot of the PSX/N64 visual 'style' is attributed to a low resolution, glitches, lack of zbuffering, fog/draw distance, etc etc. When you take the same games, but in a higher resolution and some cleaner rendering, it's suddenly a PS2/Dreamcast game ;o

 

[Demmi]

This is interesting because I always wanted to discuss the merits of what makes 3D an artform.

When you look at CG movies, next to none of them feature anything that looks like a PS1/N64 game. It seems like low poly always existed as a limitation, as opposed to an actual art direction.

Of course, this is circumstantial evidence. But when you look at 8-bit or 16-bit, it seems like something that's generally accepted in not just games but in other media as well (i.e look at Wreck it Ralph. They had no problems going for old arcade looking sprites).

Of course, everything is subjective. It's possible there are other explanations why low poly hasn't taken off. Or maybe it really isn't a style at all.

I have one theory behind this. Think about brush strokes. Can you still make a painting with only 10 strokes? Sure. But chances are, you'll end up with a painting that is very crude. If you had more brush strokes, you could paint until you come up with an image actually resembling something.

Uh... are you familiar with abstract/minimalistic painting? Because low poly design is the 3D equivalent of that, and is absolutely a legitimate style. In fact, to someone like Picasso or Dali, it might be considered the more artistic route to take. Like modernist sculpture in motion.

It's origin as a 'limitation' only strengthens its validity as an art form, and I'm surprised to see that you're trying to use this fact against it.

 

[KooopaKid]

My first gut reaction was hell no! But after seeing the two examples in the OT, why not but the rendering and framerate have to be perfect. Like Shovel Knight is emulating a NES++, it will need to emulate a Playstation++.

 

[stilgar]

"Terrible era in gaming"

Okay, GAF is having one of those days

 

[Paracelsus]

It was an era with great, amazing games but 3D graphics were bad, for you to find a charm in them doesn't mean they're good. Alundra will look nice in 150 years, Alundra 2 looked bad at launch. You can find charm in Shenmue with all those terrible textures but there's a limit to everything.

Just look at FFIII and IV for DS, they are supposed to be remakes and they need remakes of their own, the originals (and the PSP version for FFIV) aged better.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Some of this looks pretty cool, but early 3D games didn't actually look like this, so if you made a game that looked like this it would just be a stylized 3D game -- not a psx/n64 era inspired game.

N64 games in reality looked more like this:

and running at 15 fps.

despite a couple of good games, it was a *TERRIBLE* era in gaming. best forgotten.

Why would anyone do a perfect emulation of the n64 faults. I mean none of these 2d games are representative of any particular 8bit or 16bit machine. Yet we have no problem calling them 8bit or 16bit graphics. Think of it as 32 or 64 bit art.

 

[Burai]

Just as an incidental point of interest, all that and more is already possible, especially now with the efficacy of Unity.

This is made almost completely by one person.

Yup, one person with an Indiegogo budget of $50k and the interest of Microsoft.

 

[KainXVIII]

Hopefully never.

This.

 

[MrBali]

As long as it's hd and has better textures than ps1 (ugh), low poly could end up looking really nice.

 

[Lynd7]

I hope we see this sort of stuff happen. I am sick of 8 and 16 bit styles.

 

[Kris Pistofferson]

It were low display and texture resolutions rather than low poly counts that made early 3d games look so bad. Often these were running at 10-15fps and without any texture filtering.

The N64/PSX were too limited but you can absolutely do stylized and emotive art using low polycounts:

 

[ramparter]

No Man's Sky Ps1

More like Jaguar.

Yup, one person with an Indiegogo budget of $50k and the interest of Microsoft.

50k can barely allow two persons work for a year max.

 

[ramparter]

dp