partyphone
Banned
huh?
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#GamerGate thread 2: it's about feminism in games journalism
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huh?
because of like-minded people seeking each other out online and interacting?
uh...sure.
I mean...it is a bit disheartening that people bond over their hatred of women,
but that's life, I guess!
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
I think they mean that they found out about the atheist community, at the same time finding out it's filled with misogyny.
I don't think that's the only thing uniting atheists
Though, yes, we do have a bit of a girl problem to put it mildly.I can definitely relate with this, lol. I guess I misread his post.
partyphone
Banned
ohhhhhhh. yeah it's super disappointing.
but there are a lot of amazing progressive voices and things are getting better.
Are there no women in these atheist communities?
At any rate, GamerGate has been eye opening for someone not in the US to see where all these movements and ideologies line up on the political and social spectrum. Hopefully someone makes a chart with all the various groups and how far either way they lean. I wonder where the bronies would be?
At any rate, GamerGate has been eye opening for someone not in the US to see where all these movements and ideologies line up on the political and social spectrum. Hopefully someone makes a chart with all the various groups and how far either way they lean. I wonder where the bronies would be?
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
You have to be a pretty hollow shit to send a rape or death threat just because you like trolling.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Yes... there are women...? Where did that question come from?
Let's examine this.
I'm gong to ignore the "zealously devoted to this antifeminist cause" part and the trolls part, but focus on "what degree people sending rape/death threats are simply convinced that the games industry is in distress?" What exactly are you asking here and why? What would that matter? And distress how?
From Zelda and others saying Atheists have a misogyny problem. I rarely post outside of GAF so I don't know the make up of these places and their leanings.
partyphone
Banned
there are a lot of amazing women. like greta christina, maryam namazie and rebecca watson. they're just nowhere near as famous as richard dawkins, sam harris, micnael shermer, etc.
I think gamergate probably appeals to the more libertarian sides of the spectrum. but like shitty internet libertarianism where it's just shitty assholes who think they're smarter than everyone else(as opposed to real world libertarianism which is shitty rich assholes who think they're better than everyone else).
That guy seems to really enjoy the phrase "BURN IT DOWN". Not sure why anyone reasonable would ever think he's a guy you'd want on your side.
I think Gamergate is fueled by insane reactionaries, libertarians, apolitical people and vaguely liberal-leaning people(whom I think mostly make up the so-called "moderate" part of GG). That's a pretty broad group of people, politically, but I don't really think it's so much ideology that unites GG as their shared angst over white males no longer being the only group that gets catered to in gaming. I believe that's one of the core reasons why there's not a whole lot of infighting to be found in GG, despite the decentralized nature of it.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
What the hell? What the helling hell? Saying the atheist community has a misogyny problem or saying there are misogynysts in the community (even saying there are a lot of them) isn't somehow creating a 1 to 1 statement of atheists are misogynists.
Relax, youre reading way too much into what I asked.
I edited that post you quoted to clarify.To the others thanks for the heads up.
He also always likes to state that he's from the military. The dude seems really mental and he has a really short fuse from what I've seen of his Twitter feed.
EDIT: Also taking pleasure in his work of knocking people down over the internet.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Relax, youre reading way too much into what I asked.
To the others thanks for the heads up.
Dude, you're in a thread where the idea that the gamer stereotype is outdated somehow translates to "every single person who has ever played a game is dead" or "all gamers should be shot in the face" and a bunch of other silly things... So when you translate what was said to "atheists are misogynists" it's just too soon.
I edited my post to remove what upset you.It was purely me not putting too much thought into a question I didn't think would receive much attention or mattered a lot.
The irony that he's some kind of figurehead in the GG community which criticizes Anita for slow delivery on her Kickstarter when this guy never delivered on the game he kickstarted, but he intends to burn down the indie gaming scene while flailing out at as many people as possible is another example of the hypocrisy of the campaign. Plus the guy doesn't seem to be playing with a full deck, yikes.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
My sister is fifteen, and while I don't know how much she games these days she used to play them a lot (like she probably has 200+ hours in Okami) and she's also very internet/forum active. I haven't asked her if she's encountered this shit because I pray that she hasn't
Alcoremortis
Member
No, I mean because it was a nice idea that turned into a cesspit of misogyny, similar to /v/ being a nice idea that turned into something very similar. I hate it when things I would have liked to be involved with turn so toxic that I want to dissociate myself from them as much as possible.
crap monkey
Member
I've been mostly ignorant of this whole GamerGate issue but reading through the comments in the thread I'm now really confused. Is gamergate not about ethics in gaming/game reviews? I thought it was originally about game critics positively reviewing games from developers they have had intimate relationships with and not disclosing that in their reviews/critiques to the public. Isn't that what it was all about? Some writer from Kotaku had sex with a developer and then proceeded to review that developer's game, assigning it a positive score, and not recusing himself from the review or didn't disclose his relationship with the developer. That seems like a pretty serious issue in gaming/gaming journalism. But now a lot of people here are against gamersgate? I thought a lot of people on GAF hated how games journalism is today?
But now I'm reading tweets about abusing women and gamersgate trying to kick women out of gaming. How did that happen?
But now I'm reading tweets about abusing women and gamersgate trying to kick women out of gaming. How did that happen?
I get the feeling most of the hatred people have for women on the internet is actually 90% based off of 12-16 year olds on tumblr. Most of their anonymous targets are probably going to be in that age group.
Kind of funny when you think about it. But also very depressing. Why would anyone feel so threatened by a demographic like that.
There was no review. The review was made up and the scenario gamergate wanted to play out had no basis in reality. :\
Read post 5.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Everything in your first paragraph is false. Everything.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
It would be. But its all false. More then that it was all proven false within like, hours of the initial accusation. And not in a "there's no proof" way, but in a "there's no coverage" way. The supposed positive coverage literally doesn't exist.
Many of us do. This was never about ethics. It was about using ethics as a cover to continue and expand the harassment of women and feminist critics. There's a reason why this is still about fucking Anita Sarkeesian but there was nothing from GamerGate during the Shadows of Mordor scandal
Alcoremortis
Member
This post should get you up to speed on everything that GamerGate has accomplished so far.
As a warning, it's fairly depressing.
/super ninja'd
securitypigeon
Banned
Blanketing the 'atheist community' with charges of misogyny is, to me, just as mis-guided as doing the same with 'gamers'. Why are so many of you willing to attach ideals to such a large swathe of people based on the espoused ideals of such a small, internet-dwelling few?
I'd be one of the last people to say that misogyny in atheism hasn't been a problem, but you're mistaken if you think that those issues uniformly expressed throughout every atheist community.
If you thought it was a nice idea, there are still good places like FtB or Skepchick that are explicitly feminist, and aren't toxic.
There was never any review. It was a baseless accusation from the start, and they targeted the developer instead of the journalist in question. It's never been about ethics in the media that's represented the hobby, which is frequently discussed on GAF, that was used as a screen to hide behind to direct attacks at a few women within the gaming industry, many of whom aren't journalists.
Gamersgate sells games. GamerGate is a hate campaign. Just wanted to note the distinction since Gamersgate has unfortunately been maligned by people not making the distinction.
crap monkey
Member
Wow that's fucking crazy. So it was all made up? That's some scummy shit. I don't understand how anyone can support gamersgate after knowing all of this...
For me it's a pretty passive impression, whenever I have dipped my toes into the circle of youtubers and such who seem to make up the atheist movement, I find so many pretty insufferable even when I completely agree with many positions. As a result I haven't followed it much at all.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Alcoremortis
Member
Thanks, I'll give those a look.
I didn't mean to imply that all atheists are misogynists, just that from my perspective it looked like it would be hard to avoid misogyny in online atheism. It's nice to see that isn't the case.
Sexism is everywhere. It is inescapable. You won't find a place on earth where misogyny isn't casually displayed. Personal unsavory feelings about the opposite sex generally go in dairies or on the internet where like-minded individuals roam. The bond in hatred makes a spiral of satisfying feelings from knowing you're not alone in your hateful thoughts. That pleasure becomes an addiction, and before you know it, there's another community bonding over their hatred of women and girls. Hatred is a form of pleasure, so it is extremely hard to get rid of, because it keeps your mind off of other problems. Hatred feels great!
I wish people would just vent their hatred into dairies and leave it at that. Just write out the hatred on paper, rewrite it ten times, sleep on it. Read it back in the morning and see if your words feel foreign later. That is honestly the only way to kill any form of hatred.
Zomba13
Member
Just a little nitpick here but gamersgate is actually a completely innocent webstore/digital download platform whereas gamergate (no "s") is the scummy group. I know it wasn't intentional on your part but I just really feel for them as this has (as in they had to put out a statement) negatively impacted them with people assuming they are the same.
He seems to take pride in elitism. He doesn't like the indie label anymore because everyone is now indie and no one is indie, he believes he's a mercenary in the scene now. Makes a lot of drive by shit posts and he gets very personal and dirty with his arguments. He has a very ill temperament.
This all comes from reading a ton of his old posts on Gamasutra when he was still a member and I still see a lot of that in his tweets.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Like Mumei said, there are some good places available. A big problem is that a lot of people don't care, so they want the people who do care to shut up. They don't want "SJW" issues injected into their atheisting.
securitypigeon
Banned
Obviously the internet houses a fair share of weirdness...but I'm not sure you've really answered my question.
chaobreaker
Member
Oh man, I never knew how screwed up the atheist community is. It's almost not a surprise but I can't believe how long it took me to put two and two together and see the parallels in the gamer community's treatment of women and feminism.
I heard of elevatorgate in some commonly posted 4chan image. It was this picture that was superimposing feminists like Ayaan Hirsi Ali as being true feminist because of her struggles and at the same tine painting Rebbecca Watson as not being one because of elevatorgate. Hearing Mumei's explanation of the events cleared up this misconception I had.
Anyway, what's with these white guys acting like they are some marginalized class while at the same time shitting on actual marginalized classes?
I heard of elevatorgate in some commonly posted 4chan image. It was this picture that was superimposing feminists like Ayaan Hirsi Ali as being true feminist because of her struggles and at the same tine painting Rebbecca Watson as not being one because of elevatorgate. Hearing Mumei's explanation of the events cleared up this misconception I had.
Anyway, what's with these white guys acting like they are some marginalized class while at the same time shitting on actual marginalized classes?
That's what makes it so frustrating, their entire movement has been a (proven) false facade from the very start; it doesn't make sense for anyone who actually wants a discussion about game journalism to ever go near this movement unless they're either completely ignorant or proud to be one of the harassers.
I know it's a typo, but I can't help but be amused by the idea of a line of cows looking rather puzzled whilst an angry gamer shouts at them about feminism.
It's been mentioned before, but it's worth mentioning again, The Atheist Experience is a pretty fantastic public access cable show produced by the Atheist Community of Austin. It's primarily a call-in format with two hosts fielding questions, although they sometimes will devote more time or an entire episode to a more specific in-depth discussion. The ACA also has a couple of podcasts it produces, including one specifically about feminism in secularism.
I recommend that you watch the show in its entirety rather than only the YouTube clips; they tend to focus on Matt Dillahunty's more combative moments, and that loses sight of the whole tone of the show--not only the fact that there are many shows that Matt does not host, but also the fact that his approach is basically founded on empathy and attempting to at least have enough meeting of the minds to communicate honestly with his interlocutor about what the point of disagreement actually is. When he doesn't have to run out patience or trust because someone is talking bullshit to him the discussions are much more interesting but less exciting.
securitypigeon
Banned
As a huge admirer of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the idea that the two are even remotely comparable figures is laughable to me. Hard to see how anyone could actually suggest otherwise.
As a side note, I am amazed by how liberally many people here even use the term 'misogyny'. Its thrown around like free candy and seems to hold no real weight anymore. You do realise the enormity of the accusation? In some cases, it seems to be used as a counter-agent to any male who might even remotely disagree with any female. Strikes me as very silly..
I've asked GGers if they could debunk the information I've provided them of the actual events and they always tell me that the info I provided is already debunked by giving me links to brietbart and other backwater sites that are already debunked. It is insanely frustrating to deal with any of them. Though now they are starting to mention Patricia Hernandez more and that she always promotes her friends and roomates. They're also bringing up all that Pinsof and destructoid stuff too and how he was blacklisted and whatever.
It's insane.
It's insane.
I guess I'm saying most online communities are "safe spaces" for guys to openly vent out issues they have with women. It's the purest bastion for misogyny. Hasn't much to do with games or atheists. It's just that people allow and then normalize that kind of environment because they enjoy it.
Hah. I guess I'll keep the typo in there.
uomoartificiale
Member
I sometimes watch the final bossman videos, because the guy is likeable enough, even if they are usually quite stupid. The last one was casually connected the this topic, where he made a couple of funny remarks, flip-flopped a bit, argumented for nothing. It was a bit disconcerting, but whatever.
Its comment section just blew me away, not because it was particularly nasty by gamergame standard, but because it was full of misinformed kids barfing out comments like this:
This is one of the most upvoted comment, and it's one of the best articulated in that page.
It made me see how much kids form the 80% of any serious internet discussion. When I was a child, I was just removed from the discussions of grown-ups, somehow shielded from it, while adults were shielded by my comprehensible stupidity. Beware, I'm not saying that these are just kids, nothing to be worried about, I just illuded myself that there was a thing called internet discussion and now my head is fuzzy...
Its comment section just blew me away, not because it was particularly nasty by gamergame standard, but because it was full of misinformed kids barfing out comments like this:
.
This is one of the most upvoted comment, and it's one of the best articulated in that page.
It made me see how much kids form the 80% of any serious internet discussion. When I was a child, I was just removed from the discussions of grown-ups, somehow shielded from it, while adults were shielded by my comprehensible stupidity. Beware, I'm not saying that these are just kids, nothing to be worried about, I just illuded myself that there was a thing called internet discussion and now my head is fuzzy...
No one in GG believes gamergate is about harassment. They believe every time something bad happens, it has nothing to do with them. So when the media reports it has something to do with them they get very upset.
These aren't just children, there are prominent youtubers saying this as well. And anything they say is echoed by all the others.
Alcoremortis
Member
I got locked into one of those for sixty pages on this one forum. It was awful. The worst part was when one person compared the marketability of a game with a positive female character portrayal... to that of a rape simulator. It's one of the few times I've lost my goddamn mind over a debate and had to just take a few minutes so I could type something that wasn't just enraged gibberish.
It also involved lots of personal attacks on me for not believing the bullshit they were peddling.
Remember, kids: If it looks like bullshit and smells like bullshit, it's probably about ethics in gaming journalism.
https://twitter.com/davidpakmanshow/status/528386833571655680
Parkman "apologised"
Parkman "apologised"
but seriously there should be some etiquette about using fucking "perceived" or synonym in apologies
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