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[BocoDragon]

That doesn't work. You have to ask why bother in the first place. If he loves us all, doesn't want any harm to befall us, any souls led astray, every person that can be saved ending up with him, why bother with the experiment? It's very human to feel the need for conflict. It's especially fucked up when you think about him knowing how this all would play out. The suffering of mankind since the beginning has been unending. Why not just say fuck it, this free will thing is no good. Let's all just chill in heaven.

Why bother with the experiment indeed? If you aren't going to make a world that allows for struggle and overcoming struggle, there is no point to making a universe.

If you mean "let's all chill in heaven" literally, that is a place with no struggle, and thus no narrative interest. It's like a baby game on iOS that has no conflict and no struggle and is the most boring thing ever so you delete it immediately. It's like a children's book where nothing happens. No conflict = boring.

And if you mean "let's all chill in heaven" as in a kind of un divided state where everything is one and hasn't been divided into the pieces of reality... (Like when Brahman is "sleeping" in Hindu mythology, between the end of the last universe and the beginning of the next one) That's like a page of code with nothing on it. That's like a blank piece of paper with nothing written on it. It's not a story.

Stories need conflict. It's not that humans need conflicts like some "evolution makes humans warlike.." argument. I mean fundamentally, any story is about a conflict. A universe needs conflict... Otherwise it has no reason to exist.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Having struggle for an eyeblink only to have eternity in heaven is stupid and pointless.

 

[CountAntonius]

"Well, I'll be damned."

 

[Damerman]

If I wanted to design an interesting universe, yes, it would include some measure of suffering.

Whether you make the universe a Dark Souls or a Kirby's Air Ride in terms of challenge is a design choice... But we can easily see how a universe with increased challenges can bring increased enjoyment with the story, the development of those who undertake these challenges, the urgency to try and succeed knowing that there is a fail condition, etc.

A universe without some struggle is incoherant... Just a formless void with no reason to do anything. Why even make creation in that case?

I hope you are a devout laisser-fair-ist... if you believe in a utopia... then, that would be a massive contradiction.

You think that an orgasm feels better if there is a struggle to get it? hell no, an orgasm feels better because your partner and you are not only deeply physically connected, but mentally as well. its almost as if you minds are physically partaking in the intercourse. it has nothing to do with a struggle. I don't see what would be so boring about a universe where you can float through an infinite universe with a significant other while intellectually and sexually stimulating each other... life would not be boring if it was all good.

 

[BocoDragon]

Having struggle for an eyeblink only to have eternity in heaven is stupid and pointless.

I agree with that. But I don't think Judeo-Christianity's concept of heaven is coherent at all. Heaven sounds completely boring.

 

[JNA]

 

[cackhyena]

Why bother with the experiment indeed? If you aren't going to make a world that allows for struggle and overcoming struggle, there is no point to making a universe.

If you mean "let's all chill in heaven" literally, that is a place with no struggle, and thus no narrative interest. It's like a baby game on iOS that has no conflict and no struggle and is the most boring thing ever so you delete it immediately. It's like a children's book where nothing happens. No conflict = boring.

And if you mean "let's all chill in heaven" as in a kind of un divided state where everything is one and hasn't been divided into the pieces of reality... (Like when Brahman is "sleeping" in Hindu mythology, between the end of the last universe and the beginning of the next one) That's like a lot page of code with nothing on it. That's like a blank piece of paper with nothing written on it. It's not a story.

Stories need conflict. It's not that humans need conflicts like some evolution/war argument... Fundamentally, a story is conflict. A universe needs conflict... Otherwise it has no reason to exist.

I just tend to think that's how we view it, because it's all we've ever known. We need it at every level. To rise up to occasions, to feel a sense of purpose, to challenge an otherwise stagnant existence. We can't fathom being all powerful, and therefor having the ability to actually create something devoid of conflict, suffering and the like. True bliss.

Heaven sounds staggeringly boring, in that sense. But again, if God truly cared for us the way it's written, he'd consider the ramifications of needing an entertaining story and get on with the bliss.

 

[Damerman]

I agree with that. But I don't think Judeo-Christianity's concept of heaven is coherent at all. Heaven sounds completely boring.

i think you are over simplifying life... you act like a merit based society and a world with only good are mutually exclusive... i don't think that is the case.

 

[Soriku]

I agree with that. But I don't think Judeo-Christianity's concept of heaven is coherent at all. Heaven sounds completely boring.

Still not sure what you actually do there.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Don't ask a question if you don't want an answer. Love Fry.

 

[BocoDragon]

I hope you are a devout laisser-fair-ist... if you believe in a utopia... then, that would be a massive contradiction.

You think that an orgasm feels better if there is a struggle to get it? hell no, an orgasm feels better because your partner and you are not only deeply physically connected, but mentally as well. its almost as if you minds are physically partaking in the intercourse. it has nothing to do with a struggle. I don't see what would be so boring about a universe where you can float through an infinite universe with a significant other while intellectually and sexually stimulating each other... life would not be boring if it was all good.

No.

Orgasms are defined by there being not orgasms.

In a world where orgasms are things you can just have at will with no effort, and no possibility of not having one, they have completely lost their meaning.

I mean, there is actually the case of the woman who has a non stop orgasm, and she defines it as pure hell.

If you remove the limitations of this world, the fail conditions, the struggles, death, misfortune.... You completely remove all the value of the good experiences we have in this world.

A "perfect" world (like a heaven) is a world with less value, less storytelling, less experiences.

It's not like our universe is the only way it could be... But any possible universe will have to have limitations or it would not be an experience worth having.

Still not sure what you actually do there.

It's funny how you have millennia of that afterlife concept and it still hasn't gone much further than "Um.. You wear white suits and can fly I guess?"

 

[heliosRAzi]

12) Everything He Did to Job

Oh, Job. Other than a shit-ton of babies, no one had it worse in the Bible than Job, who was a righteous, good-hearted man who believed in God with every fiber in his being — which is when God decides to see how miserable he can make this dude before he gets upset. Note: This is a result of a bet between God and Satan. Also note: The bet is God's idea. He's literally just hanging out with Satan — which is kinda weird when you think about it — when he starting bragging about how awesome Job is. Satan points out that Job's pretty blessed — he's rich, he's got a lot of kids, etc., and he probably wouldn't be quite so thrilled with God if he didn't have that stuff. God downs his bourbon, presumably, and tells Satan he can fuck with Job all he wants. Satan does. He kills all of Job's children and animals, burns down his house, destroys his wealth, and then covers him in boils. Job doesn't not curse God, but he does wish he'd never been born (literally) and begs God to kill him, but no dice. This lasts a long time until finally Job wonders why a just God would be so shitty. This is when God pops up and basically tells him."Shut up, I don't have to explain anything to you." Job, having finally done something wrong, pleads for mercy, and God eventually gives him back animals and children — new ones, because the old ones are still dead. Because of a bet. That God made with Satan. For kicks. (Job 1)

And then there's this:

 

[Jak140]

If I wanted to design an interesting universe, yes, it would include some measure of suffering.

Whether you make the universe a Dark Souls or a Kirby's Air Ride in terms of challenge is a design choice... But we can easily see how a universe with increased challenges can bring increased enjoyment with the story, the development of those who undertake these challenges, the urgency to try and succeed knowing that there is a fail condition, etc.

A universe without some struggle is incoherant... Just a formless void with no reason to do anything. Why even make creation in that case?

The drive to succeed and avoid failure is just a consequence of evolution (through divine intervention or not). We want to succeed because our brain releases chemicals that make us happy when we do. We exist because of evolved mechanisms that drive us to survive and reproduce, if those mechanisms fail, then they are not passed on to offspring. Point being, the only reason success and failure matter to us is because they drive the nature of our existence. To an omnipotent god, there is no reason why that has to be the case for his creation, at best it could be considered a design choice.

 

[SunhiLegend]

 

[Africanus]

I agree with that. But I don't think Judeo-Christianity's concept of heaven is coherent at all. Heaven sounds completely boring.

It has to be as neutral as possible while being as open to interpretation for people to believe it.

So if a loved one dies: "They're up in heaven now, you'll see them again!"

If you're sick: "Don't worry, in heaven, you'll never feel pain!"

If you've lost your home: "In heaven, everyone is provided for!"

If you're lonely: "You'll be in the loving embrace of God, in heaven!"

And so on.

It's an easy way to make mass appeal while not being strictly defined.

It's much like those nifty fill in the blanks!

You try!

(Troubling situation): (Explanation of how it will be solved in heaven)

Neat!

Lord have mercy, I'm a believer.

 

[injurai]

oh my god

 

[cackhyena]

lol

 

[Log4Girlz]

He has graced us

 

[BocoDragon]

I just tend to think that's how we view it, because it's all we've ever known. We need it at every level. To rise up to occasions, to feel a sense of purpose, to challenge an otherwise stagnant existence. We can't fathom being all powerful, and therefor having the ability to actually create something devoid of conflict, suffering and the like. True bliss.

Heaven sounds staggeringly boring, in that sense. But again, if God truly cared for us the way it's written, he'd consider the ramifications of needing an entertaining story and get on with the bliss.

I just know from programming games, which are a little bit like being a god and making your own creation, there is just no fun until you add struggles to overcome. And they tell you the same thing about writing stories "where's the conflict?" Your language professor will ask.

Now, I'm still making games in this reality, and for the human animal, who has all these reward centres for overcoming challenges and whatnot... So it could be that any human program is still cursed with the same conflict of this possible reality....

... But perhaps not? I rather think that you discover something fundamental to all possible realities when you create games and stories. They are created by setting limitations and having agents overcome those limitations. Take away the limitations and you're left with a formless void that isn't any kind of existence at all. "Brahman sleeping", basically.

 

[Damerman]

No.

Orgasms are defined by there being not orgasms.

In a world where orgasms are things you can just have at will with no effort, and no possibility of not having one, they have completely lost their meaning.

I mean, there is actually the case of the woman who has a non stop orgasm, and she defines it as pure hell.

If you remove the limitations of this world, the fail conditions, the struggles, death, misfortune.... You completely remove all the value of the good experiences we have in this world.

A "perfect" world (like a heaven) is a world with less value, less storytelling, less experiences.

It's not like our universe is the only way it could be... But any possible universe will have to have limitations or it would not be an experience worth having.

i fundamentally disagree with this. the reason i do is if you think of what our world would be like in 1000 years, at the rate at which we are solving problems, the world is headed towards your "dreaded" perfect world. Stem cell research is essentially going to almost cure everything. We know how to grow plants in space stations, world economic forums are out there solving problems, scientists are finding planets that are earth-like... it's really not that hard to put 2 and 2 together to figure out the trajectory of the human race if the good guys win. so what are you struggling for now? whats the point of you passing down your genes to a being who may not even enjoy his existence because society has "figured it out".

 

[Ingueferroque]

That's the best gif I have ever witnessed.

 

[Feep]

I believe

 

[Riposte]

That guy's expression is just bewildering. I guess he was offended, but it was just strange to look at.

So God is a sadistic DM?

"Sadistic" from the perspective of the lowly human. "Battle-worthy" for the hardened life-affirmer.

 

[Mimosa97]

I'd guess most people when confronting " God " would be like " Welp ... I'm fucked. "

And then they'd try to sneak their way into Paradise by bargaining
" Well remember when i took care of that little bird who had a broken wing when I was 9 ? That has to count for something ! I swear I always prayed like a good boy and then i was on Youtube, watching this black dude talk to me about Science and I was like that shit is tight ! Lemme tell you something, i give you that dude's name and you let me in. Deal ? Come on dog ! I ALWAYS KNEW YOU WERE REAL ! I WAS JUST TEASING YOU ! "

Jesus be like " Dad, you should give him a second chance. "

God be like " Ok but you'll have to share your room with him."

Jesus " ... Nevermind. I'm off to Yoga class. Cya "

 

[PsychBat!]

What a wonderful time to be alive.

 

[Lashley]

Amazing

Never change gaf, I love you

 

[Jak140]

I just know from programming games, which are a little bit like being a god and making your own creation, there is just no fun until you add struggles to overcome. And they tell you the same thing about writing stories "where's the conflict?" Your language professor will ask.

Now, I'm still making games in this reality, and for the human animal, who has all these reward centres for overcoming challenges and whatnot... So it could be that any human program is still cursed with the same conflict of this possible reality....

... But perhaps not? I rather think that you discover something fundamental to all possible realities when you create games and stories. They are created by setting limitations and having agents overcome those limitations. Take away the limitations and you're left with a formless void that isn't any kind of existence at all. "Brahman sleeping", basically.

Assuming that you are correct that it's impossible to create a meaningful reality without fail states (which is more a limit of imagination, imo), can you imagine yourself programming a game without a possible win state for a sizable percent of the players?

 

[DECK'ARD]

I think Stephen would love that.

 

[Mimosa97]

Omfg.

You sir are a genius.

 

[cackhyena]

i fundamentally disagree with this. the reason i do is if you think of what our world would be like in 1000 years, at the rate at which we are solving problems, the world is headed towards your "dreaded" perfect world. Stem cell research is essentially going to almost cure everything. We know how to grow plants in space stations, world economic forums are out there solving problems, scientists are finding planets that are earth-like... it's really not that hard to put 2 and 2 together to figure out the trajectory of the human race if the good guys win. so what are you struggling for now? whats the point of you passing down your genes to a being who may not even enjoy his existence because society has "figured it out".

Man, I can't be with this idea. It's in our nature to fuck each other over. You're talking about perfected beings at this point. No disease, mental or physical, no starvation, no wars? You crazy dreamer, you.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

The first thing I would do if I met God would be to cast Haste on my whole party.

 

[Suikoguy]

12) Everything He Did to Job

Oh, Job. Other than a shit-ton of babies, no one had it worse in the Bible than Job, who was a righteous, good-hearted man who believed in God with every fiber in his being — which is when God decides to see how miserable he can make this dude before he gets upset. Note: This is a result of a bet between God and Satan. Also note: The bet is God's idea. He's literally just hanging out with Satan — which is kinda weird when you think about it — when he starting bragging about how awesome Job is. Satan points out that Job's pretty blessed — he's rich, he's got a lot of kids, etc., and he probably wouldn't be quite so thrilled with God if he didn't have that stuff. God downs his bourbon, presumably, and tells Satan he can fuck with Job all he wants. Satan does. He kills all of Job's children and animals, burns down his house, destroys his wealth, and then covers him in boils. Job doesn't not curse God, but he does wish he'd never been born (literally) and begs God to kill him, but no dice. This lasts a long time until finally Job wonders why a just God would be so shitty. This is when God pops up and basically tells him."Shut up, I don't have to explain anything to you." Job, having finally done something wrong, pleads for mercy, and God eventually gives him back animals and children — new ones, because the old ones are still dead. Because of a bet. That God made with Satan. For kicks. (Job 1)

And then there's this:

Animated Snarky Version

 

[Mecha]

i fundamentally disagree with this. the reason i do is if you think of what our world would be like in 1000 years, at the rate at which we are solving problems, the world is headed towards your "dreaded" perfect world. Stem cell research is essentially going to almost cure everything. We know how to grow plants in space stations, world economic forums are out there solving problems, scientists are finding planets that are earth-like... it's really not that hard to put 2 and 2 together to figure out the trajectory of the human race if the good guys win. so what are you struggling for now? whats the point of you passing down your genes to a being who may not even enjoy his existence because society has "figured it out".

I would be surprised if humanity was still around in 1,000 years.

 

[BocoDragon]

i fundamentally disagree with this. the reason i do is if you think of what our world would be like in 1000 years, at the rate at which we are solving problems, the world is headed towards your "dreaded" perfect world. Stem cell research is essentially going to almost cure everything. We know how to grow plants in space stations, world economic forums are out there solving problems, scientists are finding planets that are earth-like... it's really not that hard to put 2 and 2 together to figure out the trajectory of the human race if the good guys win. so what are you struggling for now? whats the point of you passing down your genes to a being who may not even enjoy his existence because society has "figured it out".

There will always be conflicts and interesting interplays between aspects in this universe (humans and otherwise).

They can cure polio, but then #gamergate happens. You really think the story ever ends because old limitations are ended? Not a chance. At the very least "what happens after paradise?" Is a struggle unto itself.

There is no end to the stories that will arise from the conflict and interplay of elements in this universe. It doesn't matter if the rules and objects all change. From dinosaurs to the Mongol hoarde to the 2020 Olympics... There will always be struggles and conflicts.

The drive to succeed and avoid failure is just a consequence of evolution (through divine intervention or not). We want to succeed because our brain releases chemicals that make us happy when we do. We exist because of evolved mechanisms that drive us to survive and reproduce, if those mechanisms fail, then they are not passed on to offspring. Point being, the only reason success and failure matter to us is because they drive the nature of our existence. To an omnipotent god, there is no reason why that has to be the case for his creation, at best it could be considered a design choice.

I don't think "evolution" is the orignator of this at all. Evolution simply adapted us to be good at something far more intrinsic to this universe.

There are limitations to this universe, and the interplay between limitations make coherent experiences happen (even if they're pre-biological, like two rocks smashing into one another in space).

A universe without those limitations and interactions (ie conflicts)... Nothing occurs. No story. No experiences. Why even have a universe then.

 

[ZehDon]

... if this Abrahamic god appears before you, a militant atheist, you already know you're going to die the second death. As such, you'd do it on your terms rather than any malevolent god. Airing greivances is always good for the mind.

Confronted with not only the knowledge that they are fundamentally wrong about virtually everything that they have ever believed, but also that they face the unimaginable awe of an omnipotent being, who has looked across space, time, reality and existence itself, contemplated this individuals worth with absolute knowledge, and found them wanting, you really think a militant atheist is going to hold their head high, tip the fedora and throw down an insult? Give me a break. Staring down an omnipotent being with wry witticisms is little more than an anti-theists wet dream. They'd shit their pants twice, kneel down in their own excrement, and make shit-angels while begging for mercy like anyone else. One cannot fathom the entity itself, let alone their reaction when confronted by it. Especially if you've spent your life actively pissing it off. I don't think I have words that could do justice to the undiluted fear that would encapsulate me in that position. Fry's got a lot of good to say on a lot of topics, but here, he's wearing himself as a hat.

 

[BocoDragon]

Assuming that you are correct that it's impossible to create a meaningful reality without fail states (which is more a limit of imagination, imo), can you imagine yourself programming a game without a possible win state for a sizable percent of the players?

That's a good question. It's definitely a very imbalanced game. Some character classes are OP as fuck.

But what's the win state? If it's "have an interesting experience" Id say most lives do fit that bill.

 

[TheXbox]

lmao at these gifs

I don't entirely disagree with what Fry is saying but I feel bad for the interviewer. His distress was palpable

 

[Jak140]

I don't think "evolution" is the orignator of this at all. Evolution simply adapted us to be good at something far more intrinsic to this universe.

There are limitations to this universe, and the interplay between limitations make coherent experiences happen (even if they're pre-biological, like two rocks smashing into one another in space).

A universe without those limitations and interactions (ie conflicts)... Nothing occurs. No story. No experiences. Why even have a universe then.

I don't consider evolution the originator of all, I don't think anyone makes that argument. My point was that evolution is what created the brains that cause us to consider success and failure as positive and negative and what defines which events fall into which category. You can say that the nature of this universe means that things must be as they are, but to an omnipotent creator, the rules of this universe would not apply. If you are arguing that the laws are more primal than god, that is a more limited interpretation of god than the classical judeo-christian one.

That's a good question. It's definitely a very imbalanced game. Some character classes are OP as fuck.

But what's the win state? If it's "have an interesting experience" Id say most lives do fit that bill.

I agree heaven seems a dull reward, but in the majority of popular western religions it is heaven. Given that there was a time when most of the population did not have access to those religions, you would have to consider them as unable to achieve a win state.

 

[Mimosa97]

Confronted with not only the knowledge that they are fundamentally wrong about virtually everything that they have ever believed, but also that they face the unimaginable awe of an omnipotent being, who has looked across space, time, reality and existence itself, contemplated this individuals worth with absolute knowledge, and found them wanting, you really think a militant atheist is going to hold their head high, tip the fedora and throw down an insult? Give me a break. Staring down an omnipotent being with wry witticisms is little more than an anti-theists wet dream. They'd shit their pants twice, kneel down in their own excrement, and make shit-angels while begging for mercy like anyone else. One cannot fathom the entity itself, let alone their reaction when confronted by it. Especially if you've spent your life actively pissing it off. I don't think I have words that could do justice to the undiluted fear that would encapsulate me in that position. Fry's got a lot of good to say on a lot of topics, but here, he's wearing himself as a hat.

Perfect post.

Doesn't the bible say something in the lines of " The only thing God can't forgive is not believing in him " ?

 

[Mecha]

That's a good question. It's definitely a very imbalanced game. Some character classes are OP as fuck.

But what's the win state? If it's "have an interesting experience" Id say most lives do fit that bill.

Having an "interesting experience" is too vague and varies from person to person, a "win state" would have to have parameters. Some might say feeling content would be a "win state", while still vague it's still more of a shared sensation than an opinion. I personally would say enlightenment is as close to a win state as you can get, but not everyone would accept that viewpoint.

 

[Feep]

That's a good question. It's definitely a very imbalanced game. Some character classes are OP as fuck.

But what's the win state? If it's "have an interesting experience" Id say most lives do fit that bill.

Torture and suffering are "interesting", I suppose.

Sorry, but as a fellow game designer, I gotta call you on this one. Some people aren't winning, and it's insulting to even imply as such.

 

[cackhyena]

It's just fucked to think that God would sit back and go "look, fail states have to be a thing. I gotta be interested if I'm gonna do this shit. Just gonna see what happens when these Mongols sack this treasure of a city. I just wanna let this kid with leukemia go through this. I need that narrative to play out." He doesn't. Not if he's all powerful. It suggests he doesn't have the control he's purported to have. He's as stuck in the cycle as we are.

 

[Busaiku]

Praise be.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

This is great

 

[Loxley]

And Stephen Fry remains one of my favorite people ever.

Fucking LOL

 

[Mecha]

It's just fucked to think that God would sit back and go "look, fail states have to be a thing. I gotta be interested of I'm gonna do this shit. Just gonna se what happens when these Mongols sack this treasure of a city. I just want a let this kid with leukemia go through this. I need that narrative to play out." He doesn't. Not if he's all powerful. It suggests he doesn't have the control he's purported to have. He's as stuck in the cycle as we are.

A fault of many major theistic religions is the belief that a god would behave similarly to a human.

 

[Riposte]

Torture and suffering are "interesting", I suppose.

Sorry, but as a fellow game designer, I gotta call you on this one. Some people aren't winning, and it's insulting to even imply as such.

The challenge of accepting God as a "game designer" is a lot like Eternal Recurrence. It's a good test to see how much of life you can affirm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzschean_affirmation

 

[Feep]

The challenge of accepting God as a "game designer" is a lot like Eternal Recurrence. It's a good test to see how much of life you can affirm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzschean_affirmation

 

[cackhyena]

A fault of many major theistic religions is the belief that a god would behave similarly to a human.

But they throw out the ever lovely excuse that we just can't understand his designs as well. They get to have it both ways. Lucky dogs.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

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