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[EventHorizon]

Amidst all the hand wringing and head shaking, I think we need to acknowledge that the developers have chosen to present the game in this way. What I mean by that is it would have been very easy to artificially extend the length of the game as many TPS's do by simply having wave based enemy encounters. By keeping the encounters short and tight they will have prioritised the pace and exposition of the story. The entirety of the debate and cyclical arguments will be very subjective for each person, and we won't really be in a position to comment until we've played it. I'd rather the game was honest and the developers confident enough to present it as so. But just let's wait and give it a chance instead of potentially harming what could be a very good experience.

But The Order does artificially extend the length of the game with the collectibles. That's how people are getting 10+ hours of game time instead of 5.5. You might like collectible more than fighting waves of enemies, but don't pretend that they don't both serve the purpose of extending the game length.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

That's the least important? Really? Christ.

Yes. This isn't Vanquish or Metal Gear Solid. No one is expecting interesting gameplay from this game. Interesting gameplay is not the point of a game like this.

 

[Dragun619]

Watching playthroughs and reviewing it from that? wtf?

Have we arrived to the point where it's not necessary to play the game anymore to review it? Man, what the hell?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I'm not saying it's exactly the same, but it's pretty close, especially if you're watching the full playthrough in full screen and not just checking out the cutscenes divorced of context.

Saying you can't have an opinion about the writing/story of a game as shown through its cutscenes unless you're holding the controller is a bit of nonsense if you ask me.

I don't think you can't have an opinion about the writing/story. I think you can't really have an opinion about any of the game without playing it. Like I said, a game is crafted to be experienced in a certain manner: namely actively playing and interacting with it. Divorcing that action from the consumption of the media makes no sense since the entire medium is based on the notion of interactivity. You cannot review a game without experiencing it.

Case in point again: I watched TLoU and thought the gameplay seemed weak, the story kinda meh and the cutscenes kinda pretty. Playin the game gave me a totally different perspective, because I was experiencing the game as it was meant to be.

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

3-5 hours?

What happened to 10 -12 hours?

Weren't we saying that like just a few days ago?

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Watching playthroughs and reviewing it from that? wtf?

Have we arrived to the point where it's not necessary to play the game anymore to review it? Man, what the hell?

Of course we have. If a game places a heavy emphasis on cinematic presentation and doesn't much emphasize gameplay then it's fair to treat it like a cinematic experience.

I don't think you can't have an opinion about the writing/story. I think you can't really have an opinion about any of the game without playing it. Like I said, a game is crafted to be experienced in a certain manner: namely actively playing and interacting with it. Divorcing that action from the consumption of the media makes no sense since the entire medium is based on the notion of interactivity. You cannot review a game without experiencing it.

Case in point again: I watched TLoU and thought the gameplay seemed weak, the story kinda meh and the cutscenes kinda pretty. Playin the game gave me a totally different perspective, because I was experiencing the game as it was meant to be.

The Last of Us is a totally different sort of game. You can't judge any game just by watching a let's play. But there are some games you can judge this way.

 

[Wensih]

Journey is one of the greatest games of all time. It also costs $15. If it cost $60 no one would like it.

The market value of video games shouldn't be used to determine the artistic value (or whatever you want to call the intrinsic value of the work itself) of the game. The industry has basically placed no economic value in games. They don't retain economic value. There's no economic reason to buy The Order for $60, just as there is no economic reason to buy Skyrim for $60. Both games will plummet to $10 within a year or two.

 

[thebloo]

Yes. This isn't Vanquish or Metal Gear Solid. No one is expecting interesting gameplay from this game. Interesting gameplay is not the point of a game like this.

What the...? How did you reach this conclusion? If that's not the point then why is anyone buying it? We would just wait for the Gamersyde-Rip.

 

[thelastword]

Jesus 35 pages already!
Good thing gaf represent 0.0001% of the gaming community otherwise this industry would collapse on it self.

I'm not one to whine about anything, people's opinions are theirs, but this thread is off the chains. I have never seen such.....OMG!

I really hope this game is uber successful to shutdown the naysayers, it's ridiculous.

 

[UnforgivenTwin]

No thanks.

 

[RoboPlato]

3-5 hours?

What happened to 10 -12 hours?

Weren't we saying that like just a few days ago?

One Youtuber took 5 hours and 41 minutes. Most gaffers took 10+ hours.

 

[foxdvd]

I might have missed it, but has Ready at Dawn made any games ever that are longer than 8-10 hours? Their history is portable games, and all of those have been 4-8 hours right?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I don't think you can't have an opinion about the writing/story. I think you can't really have an opinion about any of the game without playing it. Like I said, a game is crafted to be experienced in a certain manner: namely actively playing and interacting with it. Divorcing that action from the consumption of the media makes no sense since the entire medium is based on the notion of interactivity.

Again, this is solely about whether the person will think the story and writing are good. I don't think someone who seems to think it's downright bad would suddenly turn their opinion around because they were holding the controller, shot a few dudes and did some QTEs.

I totally get the idea of being immersed in the game, and that having an effect on your overall impression. I agree, for sure, but I don't think that has much to do with a person's opinion on the content of a story. They may come out of it still thinking the story was shit, but overall enjoying the experience they had with the game, but that's about it.

 

[Shaqiri1987]

Ready at Dawn should have taken notes from MGSIV. Lord of the Rings trilogy worth of cut scenes + great game play.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

My opinion is that it's not a good game, but who knows, maybe some of you will like it and there's nothing wrong with that.

Your opinion is that it's not a good game...that you haven't played

that's something that you can absolutely judge from watching a YouTube video, in the same way that you could judge a film by watching it on your laptop.

Terrible analogy, watching a video game be played is closer to listening to just the audio of a movie, not watching it on a smaller screen. An entire sense is lost.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

What the...? How did you reach this conclusion? If that's not the point then why is anyone buying it? We would just wait for the Gamersyde-Rip.

Because people enjoy cinematic games with pretty graphics and well-done stories. There's nothing wrong with that at all. People don't buy Uncharted because they expect interesting gameplay, they buy Uncharted because they want pretty graphics and an entertaining story. This is also true of The Order.

The market value of video games shouldn't be used to determine the artistic value (or whatever you want to call the intrinsic value of the work itself) of the game. The industry has basically placed no economic value in games. They don't retain economic value. There's no economic reason to buy The Order for $60, just as there is no economic reason to buy Skyrim for $60. Both games will plummet to $10 within a year or two.

You may well think that the market value of video games shouldn't be used to determine their artistic value, but it is a fact that if Journey had released at $60 everyone would have thought it was an affront rather than a masterpiece.

Terrible analogy, watching a video game be played is closer to listening to just the audio of a movie, not watching it on a smaller screen. An entire sense is lost.

Not all video games actually emphasize their ludic characteristics.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Again, this is solely about whether the person will think the story and writing are good. I don't think someone who seems to think it's downright bad would suddenly turn their opinion around because they were holding the controller, shot a few dudes and did some QTEs.

I totally get the idea of being immersed in the game, and that having an effect on your overall impression. I agree, for sure, but I don't think that has much to do with a person's opinion on the content of a story. They may come out of it still thinking the story was shit, but overall enjoying the experience they had with the game, but that's about it.

To each their own. The least a person could do is actually watch an entire walkthrough, which from I gathered that "reviewer" did not.

 

[SmokedMeat]

You're missing my point. I'm saying if you don't make noise about this kind of thing it keeps happening. The gaming industry is reactionary. By saying "Hey this game shouldn't do this" that cuts down on that type of game.

This game is like everything people complain about in modern gaming distilled into one single game. The idea that people are surprised or confused about why people have a problem with it is ridiculous. It's obvious.

Well, we're still getting Assassin's Creed games are we? So the bitching about the "UBI Soft" formula in most of their big releases is falling on deaf ears.

If anything The Order is different from the deluge of "me too" open world cookie cutter games with boring tasks.

 

[Interfectum]

Because people enjoy cinematic games with pretty graphics and well-done stories. There's nothing wrong with that at all. People don't buy Uncharted because they expect interesting gameplay, they buy Uncharted because they want pretty graphics and an entertaining story. This is also true of The Order.

So now you are flat out trolling. Should go ahead and toss Last of Us in there too, no?

 

[SunBroDave]

Again, this is solely about whether the person will think the story and writing are good. I don't think someone who seems to think it's downright bad would suddenly turn their opinion around because they were holding the controller, shot a few dudes and did some QTEs.

I totally get the idea of being immersed in the game, and that having an effect on your overall impression. I agree, for sure, but I don't think that has much to do with a person's opinion on the content of a story. They may come out of it still thinking the story was shit, but overall enjoying the experience they had with the game, but that's about it.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[EventHorizon]

For judging a story, it's especially important to play it, and not watch or read it. It loses its visceral edge that being in the moment gives you or something.

What visceral edge? There are literally chapters that are entirely cutscenes. If you can't determine the quality of The Order by viewing it then you can't do it with a movie either.

 

[RoboPlato]

Again, this is solely about whether the person will think the story and writing are good. I don't think someone who seems to think it's downright bad would suddenly turn their opinion around because they were holding the controller, shot a few dudes and did some QTEs.

I totally get the idea of being immersed in the game, and that having an effect on your overall impression. I agree, for sure, but I don't think that has much to do with a person's opinion on the content of a story. They may come out of it still thinking the story was shit, but overall enjoying the experience they had with the game, but that's about it.

On the other hand, he said he bailed out about halfway through and a couple impressions here said the story picks up around the halfway point.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

So now you are flat out trolling. Should go ahead and toss Last of Us in there too, no?

No. The Last of Us absolutely emphasizes gameplay in a way that Uncharted does not. I don't really classify The Last of Us as a cinematic game, or at least not to the same extent as Uncharted or God of War or what have you.

I'm not trolling: I enjoy cinematic games. I'm not saying they're bad. I'm just saying that you we don't play them for the gameplay. We play them for the spectacle. That's why we call them cinematic games.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

You didn't even experience the whole story. Stop acting like your opinion is remotely valid.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

On the other hand, he said he bailed out about halfway through and a couple impressions here said the story picks up around the halfway point.

Well then...

I guess just take my post as a hypothetical argument in that case.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

You can't judge any game just by watching a let's play. But there are some games you can judge this way.

uuhhh what

 

[Wensih]

You may well think that the market value of video games shouldn't be used to determine their artistic value, but it is a fact that if Journey had released at $60 everyone would have thought it was an affront rather than a masterpiece.



Not all video games actually emphasize their ludic characteristics.

I'm just saying there's no point arguing over the length to price ratio because in a few months that point will not exist.

 

[Zukkoyaki]

One Youtuber took 5 hours and 41 minutes. Most gaffers took 10+ hours.

Well, there it is.

 

[SunBroDave]

To each their own. The least a person could do is actually watch an entire walkthrough, which from I gathered that "reviewer" did not.

On the other hand, he said he bailed out about halfway through and a couple impressions here said the story picks up around the halfway point.

You didn't even experience the whole story. Stop acting like your opinion is remotely valid.

If a story makes you want to "bail out" halfway, it's not a very good story. It's just not. No writer wants to write a story like that.

A lot of these comments are attacking how my opinion is invalid because of this or because of that, but they're not looking at the actual problem, which is that the story in The Order really just might not be that good. Whether I say it or not, you know it's possible that the story's just not that good.

 

[EventHorizon]

Watching playthroughs and reviewing it from that? wtf?

Have we arrived to the point where it's not necessary to play the game anymore to review it? Man, what the hell?

If they want to treat their games like movies then they can be reviewed like movies. The gameplay is nothing but typical by the book third person shooter stuff, and there really isn't that much of it. The only thing different is the game's cinematic element.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

A cinematic game is a game that's focus is weighed more on the cinematics than the gameplay. Like heavily weighed. But, and this is importsnt, it still tries to act like the gameplay is still as important or anywhere close to as importsnt as the cinematics.

That's why a game like The Walking Dead for example wouldn't be in that category. Bayo would definitely not be in that category.

Where did you get this definition? Because apparently there is no right answer to this. From my understanding, to be cinematic, it is a technique. A technique that all games have adopted because that how games evolved. There is no such thing as "tries to act like gameplay is still important." It is strictly as to how the camera angles work and emphasizing something in the motion that you want the audience to pay attention to. It has nothing to do with forgetting gameplay.

The Walking Dead is a interactive game with cinematic elements.

 

[De_Legend]

What visceral edge? There are literally chapters that are entirely cutscenes. If you can't determine the quality of The Order by viewing it then you can't do it with a movie either.

You guys will let it go soon I guess.

Must be tiring repreating the same thing over and over after watching videos.

 

[EL CUCO]

Well then...

I guess just take my post as a hypothetical argument in that case.

I guess you bailed out on half of his post

Spoiler

I dont blame you

 

[DVPredator85]

You didn't even experience the whole story. Stop acting like your opinion is remotely valid.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

If they want to treat their games like movies then they can be reviewed like movies. The gameplay is nothing but typical by the book third person shooter stuff, and there really isn't that much of it. The only thing different is the game's cinematic element.

Really introduces an interesting argument for recording and showing the entirety of such a game on YouTube. Would be downright piracy if it were released as a film.

 

[RoboPlato]

If a story makes you want to "bail out" halfway, it's not a very good story. It's just not. No writer wants to write a story like that.

A lot of these comments are attacking how my opinion is invalid because of this or because of that, but they're not looking at the actual problem, which is that the story in The Order really just isn't that good. Whether I say it or not, you know it's possible that the story's just not that good.

There is a way to go about framing your opinion on what you saw with the caveat that you didn't finish. Making it out to be a definitive statement about the entirety of the game is why some are reacting so harshly to what you said.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

If a story makes you want to "bail out" halfway, it's not a very good story. It's just not. No writer wants to write a story like that.

A lot of these comments are attacking how my opinion is invalid because of this or because of that, but they're not looking at the actual problem, which is that the story in The Order really just might not be that good. Whether I say it or not, you know it's possible that the story's just not that good.

Serious reviewers don't usually bail out on product they're reviewing. If you had been more transparent about not finishing the game and been more honest that you can't make a definitive judgement on the game, maybe you wouldn't be getting piled on.

 

[Zukkoyaki]

I have to say, I'm hella pumped to play this game regardless of length and have it pre-ordered. But I'm almost more excited for the reveiw thread. It's going to be a graveyard.

 

[SunBroDave]

There is a way to go about framing your opinion on what you saw with the caveat that you didn't finish. Making it out to be a definitive statement about the entirety of the game is why some are reacting so harshly to what you said.

Right, right. People are upset with the way I framed my opinion.

 

[blazinglazers]

3-5 hours?

What happened to 10 -12 hours?

Weren't we saying that like just a few days ago?

Youtube has a full, non-speedrun, deaths included play-through clocking in at under 6 hours. Spoiler ahead: of that 6

Spoiler

maybe a third

is comprised of actual moment-to-moment combat gameplay.

People racking up anything over that are literally strolling around every corner of every room to appreciate the incredible graphic fidelity, and spending inordinate time with side-collectibles.

I have only watched the YouTube play-through, I have not played the game. But it's very apparent exactly what kind of game this is, and what it offers the player.

 

[Stereogatari]

I haven't watched any of the footage. Is it significantly shorter than an Uncharted game?

 

[Interfectum]

Right, right. People are upset with the way I framed my opinion.

Passive aggressive too. Why not just say what you are thinking?

 

[Last Hearth]

RAD's idiotic PR talk is the real culprit here. All their "filmic experience" and "we can't get around the fact it's a game" talk have created a group of people who wants to see them eat crow and that means wanting this game to flop.

Everything we've seen since, the contested nature of every The Order thread. Whether it's the length of the game, or the black bars, or the QTEs. It's all because of it.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

uuhhh what

What exactly do you find confusing?

1. Not all games can be judged just by watching a let's play.
2. Some games can be judged just by watching a let's play.

I haven't watched any of the footage. Is it significantly shorter than an Uncharted game?

It's hard to say since I don't think anyone keeps track of exactly how much time they spend poking around in corners for trinkets in Uncharted, but yeah, it does seem like the game is a few (2-4) hours shorter than Uncharted 2 or 3 at least. And a few hours is pretty significant when we're talking 10-hour games.

 

[Interfectum]

No. The Last of Us absolutely emphasizes gameplay in a way that Uncharted does not. I don't really classify The Last of Us as a cinematic game, or at least not to the same extent as Uncharted or God of War or what have you.

I'm not trolling: I enjoy cinematic games. I'm not saying they're bad. I'm just saying that you we don't play them for the gameplay. We play them for the spectacle. That's why we call them cinematic games.

I'd argue that both God of War and Uncharted would be fun to play even without the spectacle. I actually enjoyed Uncharted 2 multiplayer.

 

[cormack12]

But The Order does artificially extend the length of the game with the collectibles. That's how people are getting 10+ hours of game time instead of 5.5. You might like collectible more than fighting waves of enemies, but don't pretend that they don't both serve the purpose of extending the game length.

The difference being that collectibles are optional and usually fill in backstory or enrich the environment/lore. Also they are completely optional. Wave based encounters force the completion of enemy vanquished before allowing player progress. They are not the same, if you have no interest in the environment or story then yeah, ignore everything and complete the game in 5 and a half hours. But then why buy it in the first place?

 

[Welfare]

Is this the Ground Zeros thread?

 

[LookAtMeGo]

If a story makes you want to "bail out" halfway, it's not a very good story. It's just not. No writer wants to write a story like that.

A lot of these comments are attacking how my opinion is invalid because of this or because of that, but they're not looking at the actual problem, which is that the story in The Order really just might not be that good. Whether I say it or not, you know it's possible that the story's just not that good.

Movies usually are not 5-10 hours long. Games keep our interest longer because we play them. The story might not be that good but your opinion would mean more if you had at least watched the entire thing.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

What exactly do you find confusing?

1. Not all games can be judged just by watching a let's play.
2. Some games can be judged just by watching a let's play.

You don't read your own quotes?

You can't judge any game just by watching a let's play. But there are some games you can judge this way.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

I'm not trolling: I enjoy cinematic games. I'm not saying they're bad. I'm just saying that you we don't play them for the gameplay. We play them for the spectacle. That's why we call them cinematic games.

Speak for yourself. I wouldn't touch Uncharted 2 or The Last of Us if they weren't designed as well as they are at a core level, from mechanics to encounter design to pacing. The "spectacle" is failrly well done as well, and they just happen to be the outliers in the industry by not having garbage writing so I consider those icing on the cake. That's why all I've cared about with The Order from day 1 has been regarding the game's flow and design because holding out hope that a game's story or set-pieces will blow you away is a recipe for depression.

A cinematic game is a game that's focus is weighed more on the cinematics than the gameplay. Like heavily weighed. But, and this is importsnt, it still tries to act like the gameplay is still as important or anywhere close to as importsnt as the cinematics.

That's why a game like The Walking Dead for example wouldn't be in that category. Bayo would definitely not be in that category.

Cutscenes have no bearing on how cinematic a game is. I wish we would all stop looking at it like this.