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[Easton Dark]

This is interesting to see:

I vomited all over everything.

 

[Grief.exe]

Why would any company implement fixes or upgrades when they can save costs by not spending manhours addressing the problem, release the game in a sorry state for full price, then rely on their customers to fix the products, then take the lions share of what the customer fix generates?

This problem isn't mutually exclusive to this situation. How many games release completely broken or with a myriad of issues these days? Whether the developers support modding or not, often the community comes to the rescue.

As I said before, I find this stance completely arbitrary.

 

[GECK]

Why would any company implement fixes or upgrades when they can save costs by not spending manhours addressing the problem, release the game in a sorry state for full price, then rely on their customers to fix the products, then take the lions share of what the customer fix generates?

Yuup, 50% margin is straight up super villian scummy. If Beth was offering some kind of QA for the free content development/advertisement they are receiving then maybe. But they aren't.

Bethsoft set the 50%/25% rate and are essentially triple dipping because fuck you.

 

[Grief.exe]

'Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?'
"No" says the man in Bellevue, "it belongs to the distributor"
"Noo" says the man in Rockville, "it belongs to the IP holder"
"No" says the mob on the Internet, "it belongs to everyone."

I'm going to go the way of Durante and Evilore soon and start posting random memes, poems, and michael_jordan_laughing.gif instead of beating my head against the wall.

It's only a matter of time before I crack.

 

[reckless]

This problem isn't mutually exclusive to this situation. How many games release completely broken or with a myriad of issues these days? Whether the developers support modding or not, often the community fixes these issues.

As I said before, I find this stance completely arbitrary.

This situation certainly leads them to have even less of an incentive to fix problems. In a lot of cases it would be smarter for the developer to leave things out or not tailor things for PC gamers (like a UI) because now they make money when the community fixes it, but carry none of the risks of development cost, having to do QA or supporting it in the future.

How is that not a problem?

 

[Mavromatis]

'Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?'
"No" says the man in Bellevue, "it belongs to the distributor"
"Noo" says the man in Rockville, "it belongs to the IP holder"
"No" says the mob on the Internet, "it belongs to everyone."

And the worst part of it the mob is a large part of the target audience.

I've actually checked the Creation Kit when this craze started and I must say that I congratulate anybody that can create a good mod using that.

I still wish they added the Humble Bundle slider for payment and still hope some publisher will do that since this is publisher based.

And I still fear that Valve will cave in and put a barrier of entry as they did on Greenlight to stop the spam.

 

[Muscle Wizard]

Bethesda looked at all their old games still thriving years after release with active communities and thought "how can we make more money from this?"

 

[Suikoguy]

This situation certainly leads them to have even less of an incentive to fix problems. In a lot of cases it would be smarter for the developer to leave things out or not tailor things for PC gamers (like a UI) because now they make money when the community fixes it, but carry none of the risks of having to do QA or supporting it in the future.

How is that not be a problem?

Don't you know? It's ARBITRARY!

Which really does nothing to explain why it does not mater, but sorta sounds good.

 

[Grief.exe]

This situation certainly leads them to have even less of an incentive to fix problems. In a lot of cases it would be smarter for the developer to leave things out or not tailor things for PC gamers (like a UI) because now they make money when the community fixes it, but carry none of the risks of development cost, having to do QA or supporting it in the future.

How is that not a problem?

Do you concede that this issue is not mutually exclusive to games that support mods?

At least in this case, the developers have also released modding tools and allowed modders the chance to fix their mistakes.

 

[Mesoian]

'Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?'
"No" says the man in Bellevue, "it belongs to the distributor"
"Noo" says the man in Rockville, "it belongs to the IP holder"
"No" says the mob on the Internet, "it belongs to everyone."

Hey man, if Valve can get this store running to pre-spliced up chaos rapture standards, I'm all for it.

 

[Nocturno999]

It's interesting how Gabe is going to solve this PR nightmare judging by Reddit's responses.

He is seen as the pope of PC gaming and I can see him canning this project before killing consumer's good will.

 

[The Llama]

It's interesting how Gabe is going to solve this PR nightmare judging by Reddit's responses.

He is seen as the pope of PC gaming and I can see him canning this project before killing consumer's good will.

I really, really don't think this is going away.

 

[FLEABttn]

"Noo" says the man in Rockville, "it belongs to the IP holder"

I think the bigger scam in this story is a company named Bethesda actually being in Rockville.

 

[Compsiox]

I really, really don't think this is going away.

He started DRM. He may do it.

 

[Decado]

I'm glad this debacle is finally making people question Valve (whether it's for the right reasons or not). The blind adoration and worship of them was actually pretty embarrassing, if not disturbing. I do think Bethesda share a lot of blame for this whole thing too, but on more on that in a bit.

"A bit"? For taking 50% to do dick all?

I know it is their game...but they've made their money and are only making more off mods.

 

[HariKari]

I really, really don't think this is going away.

He started DRM. He may do it.

Well, he dodged the question (twice) when asked if he would take a stand against mod DRM.

It's not too late to just scrap this initiative, bank the lessons learned, refine it, and do it at a more appropriate time, like the launch of a new game.

 

[RK9039]

Well, he dodged the question (twice) when asked if he would take a stand against mod DRM.

It's not too late to just scrap this initiative, bank the lessons learned, refine it, and do it at a more appropriate time, like the launch of a new game.

Yup, plus no one has even addressed that issue yet regarding broken mods and stolen assets (like that guy pointed out on reddit), and it seems like Valve doesn't have a clue either as Gary Newell couldn't answer.

 

[eot]

Well, he dodged the question (twice) when asked if he would take a stand against mod DRM.

It's not too late to just scrap this initiative, bank the lessons learned, refine it, and do it at a more appropriate time, like the launch of a new game.

Of course they're not going to demand that game developers allow modding outside of Steam Workshop. It's not their place to dictate what devs should do.

 

[reckless]

Do you concede that this issue is not mutually exclusive to games that support mods?

At least in this case, the developers have also released modding tools and allowed modders the chance to fix their mistakes.

I'd say that this specific issue is exclusive to games that support paid mods AND where the developer gets a cut from the sale of said mods.

Similar issues happen in every other game, but not this particular issue.

That's a problem, now they have more of an incentive than ever to just pass issues off to modders to fix.

 

[bounchfx]

to be honest I'm still not really sure what the deal is with people demanding a donate button. from what I understand right now, functionally, it's the same thing. There already is a "donate" button. the author of the mod can choose any price, including 0$. Including "Pay what you want" starting at 0$. the only thing that differentiates this is that valve/bethsoft also take a cut for doing their thing. But that's also up to the author. They agreed to it. They don't have to. They can still put it at free/0$ which is exactly how things have always been, only now they have the option to gain something from it if they so choose.

 

[CybernatonEvolution]

He started DRM. He may do it.

Skyrim mod DRM is very easy to implement; it already detects .esm files in your game folders regardless of where you download them. If you open up Skyrim via steam library and choose Data, you can see the list of .esm files.

Anyway, I wonder if you can get around that by renaming .esm files. It would be silly if they took it further and made a program that checks your game's files (specifically the mod files) and compare the similarity (similar to college plagiarism programs).

More importantly, I noticed that a lot of modders are using 3DMax to make custom assets/meshes. Why isn't Steam checking for their 3DMax's (or whatever software they used) licenses? Are the owners of the said software programs going to sue those who published 3Dmax content without having a license or paying royalties? This is getting really deep.

 

[The Llama]

Skyrim mod DRM is very easy to implement; it already detects .esm files in your game folders regardless of where you download them. If you open up Skyrim via steam library and choose Data, you can see the list of .esm files.

Anyway, I wonder if you can get around that by renaming .esm files. It would be silly if they took it further and made a program that checks your game's files (specifically the mod files) and compare the similarity (similar to college plagiarism programs).

More importantly, I noticed that a lot of modders are using 3DMax to make custom assets/meshes. Why isn't Steam checking for their 3DMax's (or whatever software they used) licenses? Are the owners of the said software programs going to sue those who published 3Dmax content without having a license or paying royalties? This is getting really deep.

AFAIK if you have a "student" version of 3DSMax or Photoshop or whatever, then you can't use that to create stuff that you sell, but if you have a "retail" version then you're ok.

 

[HariKari]

Of course they're not going to demand that game developers allow modding outside of Steam Workshop. It's not their place to dictate what devs should do.

Not allow. I mean locking down a game so that it only accepts paid authorized mods. That's a possible outcome now.

 

[CybernatonEvolution]

AFAIK if you have a "student" version of 3DSMax or Photoshop or whatever, then you can't use that to create stuff that you sell, but if you have a "retail" version then you're ok.

The retail version's license is very expensive isn't it? I do recall it being 2000$+.

 

[MUnited83]

Not allow. I mean locking down a game so that it only accepts paid authorized mods. That's a possible outcome now.

No it isn't. Stop with the doomsday scenarios and crappy conspiracies. They will never stop people from releasing free mods on the workshop. They are not going to force people to charge for their content.

 

[Moral Panic]

I see the inherit value in mods such as SkyUI or Gedosato and be willing to pay for their use.

So you think it is right that Durante should have to pay 50% of anything earned to Namco for DSFix?

 

[HariKari]

No it isn't. Stop with the doomsday scenarios and crappy conspiracies. They will never stop people from releasing free mods on the workshop. They are not going to force people to charge for their content.

Valve won't, you're correct. However, Gabe specifically refused to take a stand against disallowing such things on the platform he runs. What Valve won't do willingly, publishers will gladly do.

 

[Damerman]

I guess this is good for the mod creators, but I just don't see myself paying for mods.

not unless they are really really really good... money tends to bring that effort out of people

 

[Damerman]

Not allow. I mean locking down a game so that it only accepts paid authorized mods. That's a possible outcome now.

the only reason a publisher makes money off of a mod is if the creator makes money. Its the same way if you use the unreal engine 4 to put out a free game, what royalties can Epic charge you?

 

[draetenth]

Gopher has posted a video with his thoughts.

Basically it seems like he thinks:

-System is flawed, though not malicious or devious in intent
-People attacking mod authors are being disgusting and childish
-The level of vitriol directed at Valve is absolutely inappropriate.

A fairly level-headed opinion, to be expected.

I'm watching this now, it is a great video. I agree with him. The comments on Chesko and his treatment were spot on...

 

[Nocturno999]

Some of the new mods people are uploading are hilarious.

 

[CybernatonEvolution]

So you think it is right that Durante should have to pay 50% of anything earned to Namco for DSFix?

If you are talking about GeDoSaTo, Namco has no rights to that injector tool; it is an open source software made by Durante that works with any DX9 game.

If I remember correctly, Xinput (PS3 driver/emulator) required you to be a member of the software author's forum, which was a paid membership. Durante can take that path if he wants to sell his injector.

Also, don't forget that Durante used some SweetFX shaders, and his injector relies on something that I don't remember; I don't know the technical details. So it is a cluster-fuck software to sell (unless Durante gets rid of the DX9 injector code and SweetFX shaders).


That aside, Bethesda should get part of the split. You are using their Modding toolkits and IP; your mod doesn't work without that IP. Remember that video games have large inflated budgets due to marketing, and your mod is getting exposure by being playable at that video game/game engine. Bethesda invested a lot in making Skyrim moddable and making the appropriate tool kits. too.

 

[Aselith]

So you think it is right that Durante should have to pay 50% of anything earned to Namco for DSFix?

Durante has the option of selling it for 50% or giving it away for free. So your example is...dumb. You think he should not be ALLOWED to ask for some money for his hard work?

 

[Joey Ravn]

I honestly don't care about this issue either way. I'd probably never buy a mod, but I don't mind modders charging for them. After a couple of days of constant fighting, I just want this issue to be settled once and for all in a way that the majority is happy, so we can go back to enjoying Steam as before

 

[FyreWulff]

More importantly, I noticed that a lot of modders are using 3DMax to make custom assets/meshes. Why isn't Steam checking for their 3DMax's (or whatever software they used) licenses? Are the owners of the said software programs going to sue those who published 3Dmax content without having a license or paying royalties? This is getting really deep.

Steam doesn't check to make sure you've licensed all your middleware correctly for regular steam releases. Neither does Wal Mart, Best Buy, Gamestop, Amazon, Xbox Live, PSN, eShop, or your local game store. That's not their job and it's a near legal liability impossibility to even begin enforcing it from their end.

That's your legal problem and if you are busted using a non-commercial license you'll face the consequence of it just like if you used it for any other situation.

 

[Almighty]

not unless they are really really really good... money tends to bring that effort out of people

It seems like it would pretty much take the planets to align for that to be the case though. As I admitted in the Gabe AMA thread I don't value mods very highly so that would take some mod. It would also take not just the mod being good, but the process of installing it to be quick and easy as well. Pretty much the mod would have to be on the same level as official DLC.

Actually you know what as I was typing this it occurred to me there is one mod that I would of happily paid for. It was that Morrowind Overhaul mod I used sometime back. That mod made it easy to make Morrowind look amazing and probably saved me countless hours of doing it manually.

 

[CadetMahoney]

I'd agree if they actually DID STUFF, but as it stands they basically do nothing, no QA, Quality Control, Compatibility Checking, etc etc. And they expect 75% for doing nothing.

The current model, they deserve no more then 50%, ideally closer to 25%.

pretty much. 75% is crazy.

 

[Jarate]

I honestly don't care about this issue either way. I'd probably never buy a mod, but I don't mind modders charging for them. After a couple of days of constant fighting, I just want this issue to be settled once and for all in a way that the majority is happy, so we can go back to enjoying Steam as before

Cantr happen because Steam is terrible because they dont release games anymore and they are charging money for people to put up free mods for free and are literally ruining steam by not making Half Life 3.

 

[ajb1888]

I would frown at paying for things I once enjoyed for free. Its just how I feel from my perspective.

I've enjoyed a lot of PC Skyrim mods, but I wouldn't have tried out as many if I had to pay money.. My feelings are complicated on this issue

 

[Mithos]

So whats the deal with mods that are already installed that have been changed to a pay model...just won't load or what?

EDIT: looks like it, out of 40 mods, 9 loaded...awesome, the subscribed feature is turned off I assume for the mods that have changed so, no more updates without paying...lol nope

They can't effect what is installed on your computer, but since I don't play Skyrim I'm not aware of how those things are updated. Theoretically, they should still function.

The reason why mods from steam workshop is bad, they autoupdate as long as you subscribe, and apparently people claim that after this paid mod update they even autoupdate even after you unsubscribe.

 

[Rafterman]

It's amazing how many people have been conditioned to attack their fellow gamers when they critize things that negatively effect them. Considering the amount of shit that gamers have had to deal with, and the amount of nickel and dimeing that they been subjected to over the years, calling them entitled for not wanting the purest aspect of PC gaming to turn into a greedy shitshow is laughable. It's been a slow erosion over the years but with paid mods the pod people have finally taken over, and if don't step in line, bend over and take it you're "entitled". If I had a time machine and could go back and tell gamers past how easily we fell for this shit they wouldn't believe it. If only EA had done this it would be getting the reaction it deserves, instead of this apologist bullshit.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Interesting:

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/cqojx8y

Yeah, because Steam are doing this out of pure goodwill, they aren't expecting to get money out of it or improve their business.

Right...

 

[Zombie James]

What a fucking mess. Shame on Bethesda for being greedy fucks and shame on Valve for letting it happen.

 

[Jarate]

It's amazing how many people have been conditioned to attack their fellow gamers when they critize things that negatively effect them. Considering the amount of shit that gamers have had to deal with, and the amount of nickel and dimeing that they been subjected to over the years, calling them entitled for not wanting the purest aspect of PC gaming to turn into a greedy shitshow is laughable. It's been a slow erosion over the years but with paid mods the pod people have finally taken over, and if don't step in line, bend over and take it you're "entitled". If I had a time machine and could go back and tell gamers past how easily we fell for this shit they wouldn't believe it. If only EA had done this it would be getting the reaction it deserves, instead of this apologist bullshit.

yes im sure that Valve allowing content creators to put up the content they made for a charge is literally nickel a dimeing me. Every mod on earth is going to be a 60$ DLC horse armor and we are all idiots for not understanding this.

Yeah, because Steam are doing this out of pure goodwill, they aren't expecting to get money out of it or improve their business.

Right...

Or maybe they are pushing this to see what will happen. Not everything Valve does is for "the good of the gamers" or "for loads of money" a lot of the stuff they push out is just to see how it will work. But then again, im conditioned to believe that a company who wants money is clearly evil and only companies that dont want money are good products

What a fucking mess. Shame on Bethesda for being greedy fucks and shame on Valve for letting it happen.

Imagine you;re in Bethesdas shoes. You created a software in which people are going to be making money off of, and not with their own engine, but by literally just pushing in 3d models into the software and charging for those models. it's not greedy, bethesda probably spent a lot of time and money working on thye creation kits for these games, and if someone is profiting off of it, then they deserve a cut. It's their software

 

[Nzyme32]

Direct? That response is a complete non-answer.

Seems like an answer to me - he pretty much admits the whole theft / platgarism thing has only got some hack solutions in play at the moment (namely the DMCA takedown request is the only option), and their belief is that working on a sizeable solution that will scale with their exponential growth is the way to go / what they are working - with the equivalence being greenlight and their customer support

Now you have the option of actually believing / trusting they are working on it, or you can believe it is all bullshit and non-answers from the super evil mega corporation. The choice is yours, but I'd guess time will show which is right

 

[EviLore]

So you think it is right that Durante should have to pay 50% of anything earned to Namco for DSFix?

That's purely a business decision between Durante and Valve/Namco. If someone creates a derivative work using someone else's intellectual property, they're not entitled to anything, legally or ethically, if they want to profit from it. It's up to the original IP holder, and there's really nothing ambiguous about that whatsoever. You can't sell your own NeoGAF tees unless I say so, and if my terms are a 99%/1% rev share in my favor, well, I must not want you to be able to sell NeoGAF tees. Tough luck, make your own brand.

Before now, you could give your Skyrim mod away for free or, um, try to work out some sort of deal individually with Bethesda, in which case, honestly, if you were somehow successful, you'd probably get a much worse deal than a 25% revenue share. In your dystopian hypothetical scenario, Durante probably gets a thousand times more money than he actually got out of DSFix from donations. I'm totally shaking my fist at the greedy corporations right now at the prospect of them taking the biggest cut while the content creator still gets exponentially increased compensation.

So, now you can give away your Skyrim mod for free or put it on the marketplace and get 25%, which is an option content creators didn't have before. It's up to them as to whether it's worth it or not. Community members working on Valve's games for 25% revshare certainly seem to think it's worth it. There's not much point being angry on their behalf.

 

[Suikoguy]

yes im sure that Valve allowing content creators to put up the content they made for a charge is literally nickel a dimeing me. Every mod on earth is going to be a 60$ DLC horse armor and we are all idiots for not understanding this.

I say fuck the modders for putting their mods up there with such horrendous terms.
The ONLY leverage modders have is refusing to participate.

Btw, if you find the terms so good, I have a lawn service I basically run, You can mow yards for my lawn service but I keep 75% of the proceeds.

Yeah, I advertise it and maintain customer service, but that justifies 75% don't you think?

 

[Dre_G_Writer]

'Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?'
"No" says the man in Bellevue, "it belongs to the distributor"
"Noo" says the man in Rockville, "it belongs to the IP holder"
"No" says the mob on the Internet, "it belongs to everyone."

Man, this quote rings so damn tru to this situation, as if it was made for it.

 

[Rafterman]

yes im sure that Valve allowing content creators to put up the content they made for a charge is literally nickel a dimeing me. Every mod on earth is going to be a 60$ DLC horse armor and we are all idiots for not understanding this.

You're not an idiot, just naive. Every time these things happen you get the "no big deal" brigade telling us there is nothing to see here and by the time everyone realizes they are wrong it's too late to do anything about it.

 

[Nzyme32]

What a fucking mess. Shame on Bethesda for being greedy fucks and shame on Valve for letting it happen.

Get used to it basically. They have said this previously and are now saying it again - they will let the devs or pubs do what they want whether their decisions are good or bad - that is their philosophy.