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Gun sounds in games are severely lacking

MAX PAYMENT

MAX PAYMENT

Member
CHC said:
But what about all those overheating turret sequences!?!? /s

I agree with you big time though. In terms of stopping power I will hand it to Rockstar. GTA V guns, while lacking in many ways, knock anyone on their ass in a single shot, and they will often die shortly after from bleeding out. I've never shot anyone or been shot, luckily, but I know that being on the wrong end of the barrel isn't pleasant and I think that the one-shot-drops reflect that pretty well.
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When a barrel overheats the barrel gets changed. It doesn't just cool in 5 seconds.
 
S

SuperAngelo64

Banned
I shoot pretty often.

I think the main problem is that because the sounds gunfire produces relies so much on the environment and atmosphere it would be almost impossible to replicate perfectly without some kind of engine that emulates the way sound friction works in real time, echoes and all, which seems nearly impossible.

All gunfire in games sound like they're recorded in a shooting range where the acoustics are purposely set up to nullify the sound as much as possible, and I think that's kind of the best that can be done.
 
MAX PAYMENT

MAX PAYMENT

Member
UnluckyKate said:
well, no one really want to have their gun malfunction or over heating in a game, do we ?

Stopping power will never happen : it's limited by simple game design and balance rules.

Same goes for range and ballistic. See for example R6 Siege, average kill range is 7 meters. How do you add ballistic and stopping power in 7 meters of range ? You have to bend the reallity to make all gun usefull and fun but also balanced within 7 meters.

So you have to add shit rules...

Same goes for CoD. By the average lenght of the engagements, IRL, everybody would rock automatic shotguns because they don't spread nearly as much as they do in video games (they do in vg for obvious balancing issues) because if you want to fight in crowded, close quarter street, you don't need an M4 to shoot at 300 yards. You need a massive AA12 to clear rooms or street corner with the faster and biggest bullet you can get.
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I wasn't suggesting making guns exactly as they are in real life. Because, frankly, using fully automatic weapons is the opposite of fun. But I would like some small nods or references in games in maybe cutscenes that demonstrate a little realsim.
 
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lazygecko

Member
Gun sounds are fucking hard to get right in games. Plus, that video you linked clearly has a high pass filter active to mitgate distortion so of course there's not going to be any bass.

The main problem is the very nature of their short yet excessively loud transients, coupled with the fact that recorded sound is always going to have a ceiling in amplitude. If you had a mix set up for actual realistic amplitude levels of gunshots for a game, everything else would need to be very very quiet in order to get the accurate dynamics. But this would just make people adjust their volume so that everything else reaches normal levels, and this in turn would make gun sounds physically uncomfortable or even damaging to your ears and/or speakers.

SuperAngelo64 said:
I shoot pretty often.

I think the main problem is that because the sounds gunfire produces relies so much on the environment and atmosphere it would be almost impossible to replicate perfectly without some kind of engine that emulates the way sound friction works in real time, echoes and all, which seems nearly impossible.

All gunfire in games sound like they're recorded in a shooting range where the acoustics are purposely set up to nullify the sound as much as possible, and I think that's kind of the best that can be done.
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The straightforward, brute force way of solving this is to simply use premade gunshot sounds for a variety of environments. That's precisely what some of the upper tier sound designers do.

Liquidus Snake said:
well consoles devs have to hold back a lot of neat resources to fit the performance budgets. Its sad but true, the little things like gun sounds have devs cutting corners just so they can run games at a measly 30 fps.

Other platforms suffer because of this also, namely PC.
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This is also very true. Sound is one of the first things to get axed to make room for prettier visuals. I was really disappointed by the sound in Skyrim, and when I started modding it and rummaging around in the game data using the editor it became really apparent to me just how gutted the sound had been for the sake of using less memory.
 
T

Three

Member
SuperAngelo64 said:
I think the main problem is that because the sounds gunfire produces relies so much on the environment and atmosphere it would be almost impossible to replicate perfectly without some kind of engine that emulates the way sound friction works in real time, echoes and all, which seems nearly impossible.
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The video I posted a page back shows KZ:Shadowfall has that engine in place. The gun sounds are a little muted however (though I don't really know what guns in 2370 sound like). I think a lot of developers lower gun sounds so that you can hear other game audio cues.
 
J

jacobeid

Banned
VMAN01 said:
The Order 1886 had some amazing sounding weaponry.
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My friend.

I'm also playing through Metro: Last Light at the moment and I am impressed with the sound design.

Disclaimer: I've been to the shooting range four times in my entire life so I guess I don't really know what I'm talking about.
 
S

SuperAngelo64

Banned
Three said:
The video I posted a page back shows KZ:Shadowfall has that engine in place. The gun sounds are a little muted however (though I don't really know what guns in 2370 sound like). I think a lot of developers lower gun sounds so that you can hear other game audio cues.
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I went and watched it. That's pretty awesome.
 
K

Kinyou

Member
CaptainAhab said:
Call of Duty Advanced Warfare has some hilariously shitty sounding guns.
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Advanced warfare has generally strange soundesign, mostly through that weird clicking sound. Hard to describe, but you often hear it when there's an explosion near to you. It's like the bass is turned all the way down. It was unique, I give them that
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
Tangentially related to the discussion, something that really really bugs me is when the game engine cannot trigger gunfire for automatic weapons at a consistent rate. So you have little groups of two or three slightly closer together than others.

It's like the audio version of stuttering FPS. God.
 
T

The Janitor

Member
Agree 100%.

It's so disappointing when a game is really good but the guns just sounds like crap. If the sound is bad then it doesn't really feel like i'm shooting a gun.

I have a YT channel dedicated to sound mods. Most of them are kinda bad but I'm getting better, I have a CoD2 one in progress that is shaping up to be really good.
I'm hoping to do one for GTA V when tools become available.
 
I

III-V

Member
Solid Samus said:
Battlefield 3/4 with War Tapes does this better than any other game. The first time you fire off a shotty in BF4 War Tapes hooked up to a quality sound system, you'll be in love. Shits got KICK
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100% agree, enabling war tape and the game takes on all new life.
 
L

lazygecko

Member
Falk said:
Tangentially related to the discussion, something that really really bugs me is when the game engine cannot trigger gunfire for automatic weapons at a consistent rate. So you have little groups of two or three slightly closer together than others.

It's like the audio version of stuttering FPS. God.
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Sounds like the FMOD timing problem. See this blog entry here after the wwise section:

http://brettapitz.com/2013/07/30/guns-for-games-pt-2/

I dunno if they've gotten around to fixing this in later versions.
 
B

Bornstellar

Member
I had done a mod for Crysis using BF3 weapons sounds.

It was glorious, firefights would make you piss yourself.

Unfortunately I lost those files :(
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
lazygecko said:
Sounds like the FMOD timing problem. See this blog entry here after the wwise section:

http://brettapitz.com/2013/07/30/guns-for-games-pt-2/

I dunno if they've gotten around to fixing this in later versions.
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It's also an artifact of games running at an arbitrary FPS. If the engine is bad and allows you to only trigger sounds on each nextthink (or whatever analogue) instead of having an audio engine that properly paces sounds on events that occur at a rate around the game's framerate, this pretty much becomes an engine issue.

Due to the ear and brain's ability to identify patterns, something that's supposed to be a very consistent occurrence at rapid pace (which, after a certain point, turns individual events into more of a continuous rattle) will sound 'off' if it's not perfectly consistent.

Aside from gunfire, this is also a problem with 32nd drum rolls for fast BPM songs in games like Beatmania IIDX, since everything in those games are based off frames, which effectively quantizes trigger times.
 
Emedan

Emedan

Member
I spent two years in the army and honestly the most glaring problem is sound volume - people don't realise how noisy real weapons are, in a fire fight you hear nothing but the ear deafening sound of the weapons. I mean the sound is obviously mixed as such in games to make it comprehensible but in real life it really does dominate everything.

BF series since BC have had I would say the best sounding guns but again it should really dominate more, and cancel out most other sounds.


Let's not even talk about grenades, when throwing these bad boys we had to have double ear protection, in an open field a grenade exploding is ear deafening from 500 meters away, you can even feel the chock wave.

Due to the high risk of damaging your hearing in all cases any weapon was fired it was demanded that we wear ear protection if closer than 30 meters to a discharge if we got exposed to the sound being closer than that we had to go into something called "protective hearing environment" which meant you had to walk around with ear protection for a whole day looking like an idiot!
 
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iMax

Member
What's so good about War Tapes? I gather it just normalises all sound effects/voice/and environment to the same level.
 
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lazygecko

Member
iMax said:
What's so good about War Tapes? I gather it just normalises all sound effects/voice/and environment to the same level.
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Well, yeah, it flattens everything using heavy compression. The point of war tapes IIRC is to simulate the type of poor sound fidelity you hear from amateur war footage filmed with cheap consumer cameras/phones and mics. People often associate that stuff with authenticity. It's essentially the aural equivalent of chromatic abberation.
 
T

The Janitor

Member
Emedan said:
I spent two years in the army and honestly the most glaring problem is sound volume - people don't realise how noisy real weapons are, in a fire fight you hear nothing but the ear deafening sound of the weapons. I mean the sound is obviously mixed as such in games to make it comprehensible but in real life it really does dominate everything.

BF series since BC have had I would say the best sounding guns but again it should really dominate more, and cancel out most other sounds.


Let's not even talk about grenades, when throwing these bad boys we had to have double ear protection, in an open field a grenade exploding is ear deafening from 500 meters away, you can even feel the chock wave.

Due to the high risk of damaging your hearing in all cases any weapon was fired it was demanded that we wear ear protection if closer than 30 meters to a discharge if we got exposed to the sound being closer than that we had to go into something called "protective hearing environment" which meant you had to walk around with ear protection for a whole day looking like an idiot!
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Yeah sometimes the reload sound is even louder than the actual shoot sound.

I know it's a game and the gun sounds shouldn't be too loud, but atleast make the shoot sounds louder than your average sound.

Here's an example, turn up your volume and listen to this. The shoot sound will become normal but the reload sound will just be obnoxious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SnGKm3K2C4
 
U

UnluckyKate

Member
MAX PAYMENT said:
I wasn't suggesting making guns exactly as they are in real life. Because, frankly, using fully automatic weapons is the opposite of fun. But I would like some small nods or references in games in maybe cutscenes that demonstrate a little realsim.
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Well, there is this cult classic scene in MGS3 where Snake goes on full gun fetish details about his custom 1911 A1 and you can find all the modification on the wiki :

Naked Snake's M1911A1 included the following customizations:

- A feeding ramp polished to a mirror sheen, providing a smooth area for the cartridge to slide into the chamber on, improving reliability;
- A reinforced National Match slide;[4]
- Mating of frame and slide for a precise, tight fit, with the frame itself having been iron-welded and scraped down multiple times, for maximum precision and accuracy;
- "Stepping" texture on the mainspring housing to avoid slippage during recoil, as well as a checkered front strap part for a more positive grip;
- A high-profile 3-dot type sight system. It features an enlarged front sight, giving it superior target sighting capability, helping the user to see over the suppressor;
- A ring hammer from the Colt Commander model, replacing the standard spur hammer. This eliminates "hammer bite" occasionally experienced by some shooters and decreases lock time, making the ignition system faster;
- A unique dovetail that stood in for the altogether removed grip safety mechanism, designed to simultaneously accomadate the ring hammer;
- An extended thumb safety and slide stop to allow for easier operation of both controls;
- A long-type trigger replacing the standard version, which is more comfortable for people with longer fingers. Holes have been drilled into the trigger shoe to reduce bouncing from the recoil. Trigger pull has been estimated to be around 3.5 lbs(1.6kg);
- A bevelled magazine well for easier and swifter reloading;
- A shaved down and recheckered magazine release button to lessen the chance of accidental magazine drops during a firefight;
- Cocking serrations at the front of the slide to allow the user to press-check and clear jams using the front of the slide. This is easier to do for some shooters;
- Whittled down walnut grips to create a less bulky grip when holding the CQC knife (Naked Snake performed this modification himself using his CQC knife);
- A threaded barrel made to accept a custom suppressor;
- A blued finish, with a high-polished slide and controls for a striking two-tone look.
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Or you have the game Receiver on steam that does a good job showing how to operate the gun as its the game main and really only mechanic
 
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lazygecko

Member
Black was made by Criterion after they had been bought by EA, and after that some of the sound people from Criterion ended up at DICE.
 
L

laxu

Member
SuperAngelo64 said:
I shoot pretty often.

I think the main problem is that because the sounds gunfire produces relies so much on the environment and atmosphere it would be almost impossible to replicate perfectly without some kind of engine that emulates the way sound friction works in real time, echoes and all, which seems nearly impossible.

All gunfire in games sound like they're recorded in a shooting range where the acoustics are purposely set up to nullify the sound as much as possible, and I think that's kind of the best that can be done.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's such a big problem. We can simulate different spaces quite well with convolution reverb etc.

Overall the gun sounds in most games sound somewhat like what you would hear if you're further away. In the army you could hear gunshots (ranging from pistols to rifles to light machine guns) from the (outdoor) shooting range in the woods and they don't sound anything like what you hear when you are there yourself.

Personally I'd rather have the movie style where they just try to make the guns sound like they have power behind them, even if it means crazy stuff like mixing a lion's roar together with the gunshot sound.
 
S

supernormal

Member
I think the only game that could probably get away with trying to emulate the real feeling of being next to a gun when it's fired is a slow paced stealth game. Like many have posted the problem with guns in real life is that the sound is too overwhelming. You'd have to have a really wide dynamic range and every other sound would be pretty much silent next to it at a tolerable volume.

With a stealth game, since you don't have guns going off all the time, you can have the dynamic range needed without the compression seen in something like COD. So I have my speakers at level where I can hear voices and other sounds at a proper volume, and then when that 1 gunshot does happen you can have it be loud as fuck, overwhelming, and disorienting like real life.

Remember that first shotgun blast in Drive?
 
S

Spring-Loaded

Member
supernormal said:
I think the only game that could probably get away with trying to emulate the real feeling of being next to a gun when it's fired is a slow paced stealth game. Like many have posted the problem with guns in real life is that the sound is too overwhelming. You'd have to have a really wide dynamic range and every other sound would be pretty much silent next to it at a tolerable volume.

With a stealth game, since you don't have guns going off all the time, you can have the dynamic range needed without the compression seen in something like COD. So I have my speakers at level where I can hear voices and other sounds at a proper volume, and then when that 1 gunshot does happen you can have it be loud as fuck, overwhelming, and disorienting like real life.

Remember that first shotgun blast in Drive?
Click to expand...

That's a really good point. And scaling the audio according to frequency of gunshots is good not only for practical reasons, but it can fit with a game's setting — if the player is assuming the role of someone who is used to shooting weapons, a single gunshot wouldn't be as intense for that character as it would be for the player in real life (most likely).
 
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Inf3cted_b3ast

Member
Killzone shadowfall to me beats all the other fps games I've played including CoD, Bf3 and 4 and hardline. Especially when using a good surround sound system.
 
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BLUElightCory

Member
Falk said:
Pretty much this. A lot of stuff recorded by handheld cameras are misleading because of the inbuilt compression (audio, not data) in consumer devices making the tail a lot louder in comparison to the crack.

The difference in volume between the crack and the reverberant tail is much more massive in real life, and doesn't translate well to media (Either the crack is so loud it's gonna distort, or the tail is absurdly soft)
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As an audio engineer, this is dead-on. The compression being used on many of these videos de-emphasizes the initial "crack" (which actually makes the whole sound feel fatter and beefier than it actually is) and makes the decay seem louder in comparison since the compressor is letting go of the audio and allowing the sound to come back up to normal volume.

When you discharge a firearm in real-life the sound is deafening, and that raw volume and the feeling of the gun kicking is part of the sensation of power you get from it. People playing games generally aren't going to be able to replicate that kind of volume (it's probably ill-advised to do so even if you could) and obviously a vibrating controller isn't going to feel like a kicking firearm.

I think that in a lot of games the struggle is probably to make the weapon feel powerful on TV speakers or in consumer headphones, so the sound designers have to take a different path since they can't rely on the raw volume and kinetics of a real gun. So we get doctored, processed gun sounds, and sometimes it works but sometimes it doesn't. If I was a game sound designer I think I'd lean towards sound design that feels satisfying over realism in most cases, since the things that make the real thing great aren't available in most gaming situations.
 
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