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Let's face it: us gamers hate innovation

A

Alex_Mexico

Member
The other day I was going to post a lengthy post talking about how much us on GAF and many other gaming-centric websites we talk so much about wanting games to innovate because that's what we all want and feel should happen in order to spend our money on them and reward said innovative developers.

I was going to say that for every Okami, Ico and Valkyria Chronicles that sell just good enough there's a slew of Maddens, FIFAs, Assassin's Creeds, Call of Dutys and whatnot that sell millions and millions.About how badass and new was Super Mario Galaxy and yet New Super Mario Bros Wii (a great, but by-the-numbers 2D Mario that did nothing new) sold three times as much as SMG did.

And yet I never got around to do it and I'm happy I never did because I saw this video that tells it better than I could ever dream.

Everytime a message board poster talks about how "mundane" Uncharted is by saying how it does nothing new. That third person cover based shooters with a story are nothing new or how they dont like The Last of Us because it lacks some sort of innovation (if I got a penny for everytime someone dissed those games because of that I'd be rich) instead of seeing them as the sum of its parts for how good they are, just remember this: gamers in general hate innovation. And I refer you guys to this video:

https://youtu.be/Cxhs-GLE29Q

Sure. There's always the odd Minecraft every now and then that breaks the mold and makes billions but they're far from the norm.

Thoughts?
 
F

Feep

Banned
I'd argue the general populace (who, unfortunately, drive the industry these days) doesn't value innovation on the whole.

If you're talking to GAF, though, I'd disagree with you there.
 
Y

YianGaruga

Banned
Stop following only "mainstream" games. There are tons of innovative games out there that do well enough.

There isn't a single group of "gamers"
 
T

Twilight Gap

Member
good change is great. change for the sake of change usually isn't.

no need to innovate when you could refine and perfect and make just as good of a game as any.
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
Feep said:
I'd argue the general populace (who, unfortunately, drive the industry these days) doesn't value innovation on the whole.

If you're talking to GAF, though, I'd disagree with you there.
Click to expand...

Of course I'm talking about the general population of gamers.

GAF is a very small part of this increasingly bigger pie.

Please watch the video and see what I mean.
 
D

Dremark

Banned
Alex_Mexico said:
Well yearly FIFA and Call of Duty sales say that's correct.

Please watch the video to fully understand the point.
Click to expand...

Interesting how Call of Duty MW made a bunch of innovations that changed things from the previous version and then sales sky rocketed.

You can't say gamers hate innovation then just site sales. There are innovative games that sell well and there are innovative ones that don't sell well. You can't just ignore that multitude of other factors, jump to that conclusion and expect it to hold any water.
 
C

CrispyGoomba

Member
I don't think Uncharted get's a lot of flak because it doesn't do anything new. I have a couple problems with the game myself, but then you have The Last of Us in which I consider one of the better games out there.

Honestly, who says that they don't like TLOU because it doesn't innovate? Much less any game out there? Seems like a dumb reason to hate on a game, but I might be missing something.
 
R

Renekton

Member
Looking at Kickstarter:

Star Citizen - Wing Commander Privateer
Mighty No 9 - Rockman
Yooka Laylee - Banjo Kazooie
Torment - Planescape
Wasteland 2 - Wasteland
Pillars of Eternity - Baldur's Gate
Bloodstained - Symphony of the Night
Planetary Annihilation - Total Annihilation
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
Dremark said:
Interesting how Call of Duty MW made a bunch of innovations that changed things from the previous version and then sales sky rocketed.

You can't say gamers hate innovation then just site sales. There are innovative games that sell well and there are innovative ones that don't sell well. You can't just ignore that multitude of other factors, jump to that conclusion and expect it to hold any water.
Click to expand...

I beg of you: watch that video and you'll understand. Gamers like sequels but not so much innovation. Of course there's innovation here and there that works!

BrettHeazy said:
you post this like none of us are beyond excited for rift/morpheus/vive
Click to expand...

Sure. Us in GAF! But we're not the general population that drives this industry as a whole.
 
I

Infernal Monkey

Member
q9YTzwO.png
 
N

NinjamicWZ

Banned
I've watched this video before. It doesn't apply to me. I like what I like and take everything as it comes. Good + Same or Good + New. Even many things I find mediocre or offputting at first can grow on me. I rarely hate anything except the absolute most recycled, lowest common denominator that's been driven into the ground, shoved down my throat, and was never for me in the first place.

It's good that voices like GT exist to reach all the right, applicable people it can. Just like his "you're being played" and his "is this what gamers want" videos do.
 
D

diggmcbadass

Member
That people in general like sequels should be evident by every media's biggest sellers are almost always sequels. It doesn't say much about innovation though.
 
D

Dremark

Banned
Alex_Mexico said:
I beg of you: watch that video and you'll understand. Gamers like sequels but not so much innovation. Of course there's innovation here and there that works!
Click to expand...

I'm not in a position to watch the video right now. Unless it does some sort of actual analysis to show that we hate innovation I doubt it's going to hold much water either.

You also state gamers like sequels but not innovation like the things are mutually exclusive. Honestly the arguments you are presenting sound more like new IP vs. Old IP than innovation being something hated by gamers.
 
M

Madao

Member
innovation (along a slew of other things) are keeping F-Zero dead because Miyamoto says he can't come up with new ideas.

there's no innovation necessary. they just need to put together the best from every F-Zero game into an HD entry to make a new and fresh game (track editor would be new outside japan)
 
R

random25

Member
Sorry, I'm no US citizen so I don't belong with what you're saying :p

Seriously, the general consuming public is more about what is mainstream. For example, tablet computers have existed since the early 90s, but it really never took off until Apple made it mainstream with the iPad. Thing is, innovation needs to be mainstream to succeed.

A dual-screen handheld called Nintendo DS became the best selling handheld console of all time, and it is because it is mainstream. It was really innovative during its time and has been a commercial success to the gaming public. Games like CoD, Zombie games and 2D Mario sells well because they are mainstream games. Super Mario Galaxy was innovative, and while it didn't sell as much as 2D Mario games, it still was a commercial success. Innovation in gaming do succeed in the market, just not all the time.

If innovative games don't sell well, it's not because gamers don't want innovation. There's just a lot of things that attract a consumer to buy products, in this case games, aside from being innovative, such as brand power, trends, peer influences and presentation.
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
YianGaruga said:
Could you summarize it? I'm not gonna watch a 12 minute overproduced YT video.
Click to expand...

He makes a pretty strong case with sales numbers about how much we say we want innovation and yet the best sellers are the sequels to established franchises. Even within a single franchise, like Mario for example, we see how the 2D more traditional Marios sell, by far, the most and yet the 3D critical darlings like Super Mario Galaxy or the SMBW2: Yoshi's Island goofball sold the least.

It is an overproduced video but it is very interesting and an eye opener. It is also entertaining.

Madao said:
innovation (along a slew of other things) are keeping F-Zero dead because Miyamoto says he can't come up with new ideas.

there's no innovation necessary. they just need to put together the best from every F-Zero game into an HD entry to make a new and fresh game (track editor would be new outside japan)
Click to expand...

That is sad. Innovation for innovation's sake is bad and often unnecessary. We haven't had a new F-zero in 12 years. We've yet to see it in HD or even have a track editor that doesnt involve importing from Japan a 15 year old failed peripheral. This same reason is why I'm worried about Star Fox on WiiU. I fear Miyamoto is going to try an reinvent the wheel with it and the WiiU Gamepad.
 
U

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
No we don't. Original ideas are always welcomed as long as the product is of a decent standard. Innovative titles like Wii Fit, Minecraft, Hearthstone etc are massive successes.
 
Freshmaker

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Feep said:
I'd argue the general populace (who, unfortunately, drive the industry these days) doesn't value innovation on the whole.

If you're talking to GAF, though, I'd disagree with you there.
Click to expand...

Eh. I've always felt the innovation drumbeat is kinda misguided. New stuff is great. There's still tons of people who just got something they liked however and they're looking for more of that with refinements.

New stuff is great. It's just not something that will happen or not just because someone wants it to however. Need the proper market conditions, and it has to be implemented in a way that's not a hassle to play etc.

If you're going to generalize though, according to at least half the comments I've read the past two years, innovation = the exact same game except steampunk.
 
N

nckillthegrimace

Member
I got half way through the video before I decided that the author probably has no idea what he's talking about and that he's annoying. The Mario example is particularly idiotic. The 2D games sell the best because they're incredibly accessible. Anyone can figure out dpad plus two buttons. It has nothing to do with shunning innovation amd everything to with prefering simpler games. And, hey, Mario Galaxy still sold like 12 million copies, so his desperate attempts at painting it as a failure reek of trying to contort data to fit his stupid argument. I'm not even going to touch him trying to paint the GameCube as some sort of super innovative console with super innovative games. That's just...what.
 
M

Mushroomer25

Member
Here's the thing, saying "us gamers" ceases to make sense. The majority of people buying games don't fall into a classification relevant for this conversation. Every GAF user can adore a game for it's innovative principles, but combined we're a drop in the bucket of sales necessary for a AAA release.

We are not the majority vote in these matters.

Also, NSMB was bundled with a bunch of consoles. Probably accounts for a significant percentage of sales. Add in the multiplayer benefit (which in a way, was innovative for the franchise), and you can see why one outsold the other.
 
R

Roshin

Member
Innovation is a big word and it can mean just about anything.

If it's something clever, fun, and/or useful, then I wouldn't mind. If it's a pointless or annoying gimmick, shoehorned in just to be different, then I would mind.
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
Renekton said:
Looking at Kickstarter:

Star Citizen - Wing Commander Privateer
Mighty No 9 - Rockman
Yooka Laylee - Banjo Kazooie
Torment - Planescape
Wasteland 2 - Wasteland
Pillars of Eternity - Baldur's Gate
Bloodstained - Symphony of the Night
Planetary Annihilation - Total Annihilation
Click to expand...

Sad but true. So fucking true.
 
Y

YianGaruga

Banned
Alex_Mexico said:
He makes a pretty strong case with sales numbers about how much we say we want innovation and yet the best sellers are the sequels to established franchises. Even within a single franchise, like Mario for example, we see how the 2D more traditional Marios sell, by far, the most and yet the 3D critical darlings like Super Mario Galaxy or the SMBW2: Yoshi's Island goofball sold the least.

It is an overproduced video but it is very interesting and an eye opener. It is also entertaining.
Click to expand...
I watched most of it. (it was terrible) The biggest problem I still have is that he says "you" and "we" as if this applies to everyone.

Yes, the games with the biggest (marketing!) budget sell the most and take the least risks, but I don't see how that is surprising or worrying. They're supposed to sell to "everyone" and you can't do that by doing something completely new and crazy. That's why it's called "mainstream". There are games with (ideally) smaller budgets that are innovative and sell well enough to be successful for the creators. I see no problem here.

That the media and the hardcore forums are asking for innovation and new experiences but the general public isn't, isn't new or exclusive to videogames.
 
T

-TK-

Member
US gamers like innovations, but are much more poor than european gamers and that's why they don't buy new things as quick.
 
M

MrBadger

Member
I hope putting "us gamers" in the title doesn't derail the discussion too much.

Having said that, there is a fair bit of truth there. If what we know is really good, sometimes we'd rather stick with what works than try new things, no matter how well the new thing is pulled off. I know for a fact that I'd be more likely to buy a Super Mario Galaxy 3 than Splatoon (which I'll probably still buy).
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
nckillthegrimace said:
I got half way through the video before I decided that the author probably has no idea what he's talking about and that he's annoying. The Mario example is particularly idiotic. The 2D games sell the best because they're incredibly accessible. Anyone can figure out dpad plus two buttons. It has nothing to do with shunning innovation amd everything to with prefering simpler games. And, hey, Mario Galaxy still sold like 12 million copies, so his desperate attempts at painting it as a failure reek of trying to contort data to fit his stupid argument. I'm not even going to touch him trying to paint the GameCube as some sort of super innovative console with super innovative games. That's just...what.
Click to expand...

I think he exaggerated to make his point across but what he means is the GC did have the strangest and most divisive 3D Mario, the strangest and most divisive 3D Zelda, the strangest and most divisive (at least before launch) Metroid game, one of the weirdest new Nintendo IPs with Pikmin, so on and so forth.

Compared to the Wii, the GC took more chances with new IPs and weird sequels to some of its most beloved franchises. Thats what he meant and I think he was correct.
 
G

Gaogaogao

Member
whynotboth.gif

shadow of mordor is a prime example of giving people something they know they want (batman and assassins creed), plus something new and innovative (the nemesis system).

some games dont get credit for any steps they take to improve/ innovate on a proven concept. axiom verge comes to mind...

not everything can be 100% ground breaking.
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
Renekton said:
Looking at Kickstarter:

Star Citizen - Wing Commander Privateer
Mighty No 9 - Rockman
Yooka Laylee - Banjo Kazooie
Torment - Planescape
Wasteland 2 - Wasteland
Pillars of Eternity - Baldur's Gate
Bloodstained - Symphony of the Night
Planetary Annihilation - Total Annihilation
Click to expand...

Exactly! And they're the biggest crowdfunded games ever and they're all spiritual successors to old, established franchises.

Im sure most of them will/are great (hell, I backed 3 of those) but hardly what you'd consider the epitome of innovation.

MrBadger said:
...there is a fair bit of truth there. If what we know is really good, sometimes we'd rather stick with what works than try new things, no matter how well the new thing is pulled off. I know for a fact that I'd be more likely to buy a Super Mario Galaxy 3 than Splatoon (which I'll probably still buy).
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
R

Randomizer123454444

Member
No.

"Us gamers" are the ones funding kickstarters and buying indie games that innovate. FTL & Bastion for example.

Alex_Mexico said:
I was going to say that for every Okami, Ico and Valkyria Chronicles that sell just good enough there's a slew of Maddens, FIFAs, Assassin's Creeds, Call of Dutys and whatnot that sell millions and millions.
Click to expand...

There are over billion gamers in world: http://venturebeat.com/2013/11/25/more-than-1-2-billion-people-are-playing-games/

Many of them don't play that often. The Call of Duty 2013, COD 2014, COD 2015 they buy may be the only games they play. They buy those games, because to them they are fun to play. They don't get tired of annual releases because they don't play that many games.

The mistake you are doing is thinking "gamers" is some kind of uniform hive-mind community. Saying "us gamers hate innovation" is like saying "movie watchers hate innovation". Both categories are so absurdly large that there is no point in discussing "what gamers want" like we were one group with one opinion.
 
Stiflers Mom

Stiflers Mom

Banned
I usually even don't like playing sequels to games I love.

Vastly prefered Mario Galaxy to its sequel for instance.

So, I guess, I am not one of "us gamers"...
 
D

DICKS AHOY

Banned
Isn't this mostly due to middleware games disappearing last gen, leaving two extremes where you had indies that were meant to be throwbacks to what the developers grew up with and AAA games where the budgets inflated so hugely companies simply can't take the risk to 'innovate' too much unless it's with a proven IP? Seems less like gamers oppose innovation and more the way the market's developed you just have to look out harder for it, assuming you mean Minecraft-levels of uniqueness.

Plus that list of successfully funded Kickstarter games isn't so bad when you consider just how dead a lot of those style of games have been for the past decade if not longer. It's not innovation per say, but when there's such a huge gap of time I don't think it's fair to call it stagnation either.

Infernal Monkey said:
q9YTzwO.png
Click to expand...
fucking gamers
 
F

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
That's like saying "Nobody likes good books anymore!" or "Nobody makes good movies anymore" because Twilight and 50 shades of Grey sell well and Transformers is a box office hit.
Of course the big mainstream stuff will be more popular and will sell better. That's why it's called "Mainstream".
 
D

danmaku

Member
Alex_Mexico said:
I think he exaggerated to make his point across but what he means is the GC did have the strangest and most divisive 3D Mario, the strangest and most divisive 3D Zelda, the strangest and most divisive (at least before launch) Metroid game, one of the weirdest new Nintendo IPs with Pikmin, so on and so forth.

Compared to the Wii, the GC took more chances with new IPs and weird sequels to some of its most beloved franchises. Thats what he meant and I think he was correct.
Click to expand...

I'd argue that the Wii was successful because it was extremely innovative and different from the competition, while the GC was a standard console with games only slightly different from the tradition.
 
E

EGM1966

Member
Don't include me in your boring majority OP. I prefer one and done, risk, new IP and innovation and get tired and move away from franchises pretty quickly as I have little interest in "more of the same but different" sequels and commercially dictated further entries.

You're probably right about the majority though.
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
EGM1966 said:
Don't include me in your boring majority OP. I prefer one and done, risk, new IP and innovation and get tired and move away from franchises pretty quickly as I have little interest in "more of the same but different" sequels and commercially dictated further entries.

You're probably right about the majority though.
Click to expand...

Sadly, I think I am.
 
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