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Polygon: "Shenmue's 3 budget is a mystery, and why that's a problem."
- Thread starter MouldyK
- Start date
Melchiah
Member
I'm going to take a wild guess, and say no.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
1) First off, you're welcome to all your thank yous.
2) I never said anything about him not liking the product, I said he doesn't like the structure of the way the product is being funded. I never once said that he didn't have the right to voice his opinion. I merely said that when he voices his opinion, everyone else has the right to not care what he says depending on his position and relation to the situation. I, nor anyone here is taking away the right to let Kuchera voice his opinion. I didn't pull his article down from Polygon. People are merely saying that they don't give a shit about his opinion based on his history as a journalist, and the fact that he isn't really effected by this problem. I don't know why you keep confusing these two things and think that me (And many others) saying "I don't care what this guy thinks." is the same as "He shouldn't get to voice his opinion." They are two clearly different statements, and you need to learn the difference between the two.
Just because someone has an opinion, doesn't mean everyone needs to take that opinion seriously. This seems to be a fact often forgotten these days, now that everyone has a platform for their opinion and thinks that everything they say matters. You keep implying that everyone is trying to take Kuchera's rights away, when really the situation is far closer to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkQ5oARNxLU
3) Somewhere around the place where you don't understand what a "Public interest" is in the first place. Kickstarter donators are far closer to adherents of an enonomic interest group then being part of a public interest group. This Kickstarter doesn't effect the general public. It is a donation set up for people to help fund a video game. A video game is not a matter of public interest, even if they're asking the public for donations. You not knowing the details of this Kickstarter won't effect your life in any way, because you not donating won't effect your life in any way.
4) You haven't been able to follow me on anything so far. You've misrepresented what I've said multiple times in saying that I've said that Kuchera shouldn't have a right to voice his opinion.
5) Again, you don't follow. Because in my analogy I am not siding with the seller, as I am the one going around complaining that he got screwed. Maybe my friend did get screwed, but if he doesn't feel like he got screwed, and him getting screwed doesn't effect me in any way, eventually I have to wonder why I give so much of a shit about something that clearly makes him happy, and doesn't effect me in any way. It's none of my business where my friend puts his money, even if I think where he puts it is a bad idea. As long as the car company didn't do anything illegal or harmful to my friend, I really have no leg to stand on in constantly complaining about his situation, because what I see as a problem clearly does not register as a problem for him. And considering he's the only one the "Problem" is effecting, I think it's fair to say that his opinion on the matter takes precedent over mine. Again, I would have the right to voice my opinion that I think he made a bad investment, but he also has the right to say "I don't care if you think that, I'm happy with what I did with my money." which is exactly what I, and everyone else in here are saying to Ben Kuchera.
You can think my friend, and anyone who is donating to Shenmue III without caring about the finer points is a "Weirdass motherfucker." but like I've said so many times before, all of those people also have the right to not give a shit about your opinion on the matter. Because when it comes down to it, it's not going to effect you, and the people it will be effecting are clearly happy with what they're doing. May it come back to bite them in the ass? Sure. But if they felt that that was a likely scenario, they wouldn't be putting the money up in the first place.
6) Perhaps to an extent, but obviously this Kickstarter is not infringing on any of those rights. Because it is breaking no rules of the site it's being hosted on, nor is it breaking any laws, otherwise it would have gotten taken down, as Kickstarters have before. And they certainly don't have the same rights as an investor of a company would.
Again, what you see as a "Right" is really just information you desire to have before you see the project as legitimate and open. These are not the same thing. I would even agree with you that it would be better and more transparent if they did divulge this information, but like I said, them not doing so doesn't mean their taking any rights away from any one.
FiveMinuteHero
Member
YS won't tell Polygon how much cash investment the game is getting (or needs). They say there is a problem.
Teletraan1
Banned
If you are a KS investor and you don't see the financial information or information that you yourself require for this to be a worthwhile investment transparently displayed then don't invest. Simple as that.
Nobody was putting a gun to anyones head when this was announced. If you didn't agree with the terms or lack there of then that is on you. If you are mad that other people rushed in to support something that isn't transparent then fight the good fight but people buy into shity garbage everyday and it cant be stopped. It is why every game is chopped up into DLC bits and sold piecemeal because stupid people who have too much money will support anything. Not saying this game or KS is a bad investment but people will throw money at anything so of course there was going to be a rush of people paying whatever with little or no info for a long anticipated game.
Should KS be regulated or something. Probably. But it will take quite a few rather large KS to fail in a spectacular way before any sort of regulations would even be considered. Up till then use your own judgement.
Game is getting made people should be happy rather than following the money. Bunch of Lester Freemans up in here.
Nobody was putting a gun to anyones head when this was announced. If you didn't agree with the terms or lack there of then that is on you. If you are mad that other people rushed in to support something that isn't transparent then fight the good fight but people buy into shity garbage everyday and it cant be stopped. It is why every game is chopped up into DLC bits and sold piecemeal because stupid people who have too much money will support anything. Not saying this game or KS is a bad investment but people will throw money at anything so of course there was going to be a rush of people paying whatever with little or no info for a long anticipated game.
Should KS be regulated or something. Probably. But it will take quite a few rather large KS to fail in a spectacular way before any sort of regulations would even be considered. Up till then use your own judgement.
Game is getting made people should be happy rather than following the money. Bunch of Lester Freemans up in here.
Very true!
Everything gets picked apart to a molecular level these days, and the whole time it's like people are looking for blood - especially if the target lacks any iota of transparency. Kuchera says the 'budget is a mystery' but herein lies the problem.
Without going into detail about obvious overhead expenses during any particular (start-up) project; it's imperative that those numbers ($2M) come first.
Even top financiers can't predict exact numbers to their shareholders for huge projects. Movies in Hollywood perpetually go over budget during production from all kinds of uncertainties, why should we expect any different from this project?
Kuchera in a nutshell, essentially points to Sony - what about Sony?
Seeing how fast Sony jumped on the opportunity to help develop Shenmue 3 (only after it's record breaking KS goal was met), it's an easy constituent to base an assumption of an honest inquiry about a final budget - I get it!
It's clearly an emotional time - I get it!
Considering the ubiquity, and history of the IP in general, it's only natural to express a sense of concern (a sense of ownership) - that this project does well.
However, to sell the lack of transparency as problem because Yu Suzuki can't give a definitive answer, just comes off as contentious. As long as we're making assumptions it would be equally fair to say that Yu Suzuki didn't have a clue about Sony's interest in Shenmue 3 until after the fact.
I mean they're probably still shaking hands...
Lil'DigiOp
Member
Please let's cry more about recieving a game that probably would have never been made for 29 bucks. What a horrible fate.
I do have to ask. Are you the friend in this analogy, who is so vehemently fighting against getting the information if he got screwed or not? Because he is afraid that this information might screw with his purchase. Again, this isn't about annoying him. Its about asking for more information, which as a followup, benefits him.
This game is on Kickstarter.
What project in the ENTIRE WORLD! lacks unforeseen circumstances which can alter a project's - projected budget?
Here's a hint:
None!
We'll know when it's done - guanteed!
Zen_Arcade
Banned
No one is fighting against getting information in this thread. At worst, people are apathetic about getting said information, and think that Kuchera is blowing the issue out of proportion (Which Polygon has a track record of doing in an attempt to get traffic to their website). And if anyone has the right to say that he's blowing the issue out of proportion, it's the people who actively put their money into the project because ultimately, they're the only ones who are going to get effected by the outcome. And if THEY of all people don't give a shit, I think they, and everyone else, have every right to voice their opinion that Kuchera is making a mountain out of a molehill. Kuchera isn't speaking on behalf of the people who donated to this Kickstarter, he's speaking on behalf of himself. Which again, he has the full right to, but everyone else also has the right to criticize his opinion and not take it seriously.
Like I've said multiple times, Kuchera can ask all he wants about the information. No one is stopping him. No one is saying he shouldn't. The closest they're asking is "Why does he care so much about something that's not going to effect him, and why should I care about what he says in the first place?"
But no one who actually donated to this Kickstarter seem to be the ones worried that the lack of information that might screw with their purchase. The only ones voicing these concerns are people like Kuchera, who it doesn't effect. Which rounds back around to everyone saying "Who cares what this guy thinks?"
If my friend who is buying the car, and the people who donated don't CARE that they don't have this information or the benefits it would give (Which is exactly where we are at in this situation) then I wouldn't spend my time worrying about what they're doing with their money, because ultimately it's none of my business.
"This issue doesn't affect you, so stop caring about it!" rings so dumb and hollow. This world would suck if everyone turned a blind eye to issues that did not directly affect them. Not to mention that someone's displeasure with the transparency of this project has no affect on its supporters, so by their own logic they should not be as vocally dismissive. Shouldn't they actually be hoping to court other potential backers rather than saying "Shut up and don't back it then!"???
Moreover though, this Kickstarter has in indirect effect on the types of Kickstarters that will be launched in the future, and how appropriate it's considered to throw out tiny lowball goals or get the majority of funds from mystery investors. Kuchera does a relatively poor job of communicating all of these issues though.
Obviously the final budget is not known to anyone at this point (unless somehow written down in contracts not revealed to us), but they surely have internal expectations as well as (financial and other) plans, none of which have been made public. They have external financing after all.
As explained, it is completely okay if someone doesn't care about all this, it is not necessarily a big problem, but the vitriol towards those mentioning the lack of transparency is (in general) embarassing.
It's completely okay if you don't care whether they reveal their plans right now. It's not okay if others (verbally) attack those that consider this problematic. I think criticism/skepticism is understandable to some extent, even moreso given how often Kickstarter projects seem to run into problems or changes.
That doesn't mean that the project sucks or that it shouldn't be supported. That is ultimately a personal decision. It is nonetheless important to ask critical questions and I would expect journalists to bring up painful subjects, not just in this case and many have done a very poor job at this in the past.
Was the title of the thread accurate at the time the OP was posted? The headline on Polygon currently reads: "Shenmue's 3 budget is a mystery, Yu Suzuki isn't talking, and why that's a problem."
Just wondering, because I saw Polygon tweeted the link to their article with this description, "Yu Suzuki shuts down questions about Shenmue's budget. That's bad news." That paints the issue less as being in the dark about the game's budget, and more as Yu Suzuki, according to Polygon, 'shutting discussion of it down.'
Just wondering, because I saw Polygon tweeted the link to their article with this description, "Yu Suzuki shuts down questions about Shenmue's budget. That's bad news." That paints the issue less as being in the dark about the game's budget, and more as Yu Suzuki, according to Polygon, 'shutting discussion of it down.'
Thats not true for Star Citizen. They gave out a lot of financial details and predictions how much budget they need.
They freely talk about moving studios to bigger offices, cost of conventions, the head count of offices, technology they are buying etc.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Again, I never said that Kutchera shouldn't care about it (I dont personally understand why he would, but thats not the same thing as saying he shouldn't). He's free to care about it all he wants. I'm just saying that people don't have to care about his opinion on the matter and are allowed to voice that opinion in opposition to his.
I don't know why they would care about courting other potential backers when the project is already more then funded, quicker then any other video game has ever been funded, and when the money that is gotten through the Kickstarter will be a fraction of a fraction of the full budget anyway.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
The desire for people to see the budget comes from either
A) misguided concern. Therefore, seeing the numbers will somehow reassure these people that the game will be okay, even though they have no idea what each person is being paid, what the licensing or assets or office space will cost, or...
B) misguided desire to play "armchair analyst" like many on the internet love to do. Therefore, seeing the numbers will somehow allow these people to make sage proclamations as to what the appropriate way to spend the money would be, or allow them to judge how big the game will be, how many voice actors will be in it, etc.
Both propositions are idiotic. People should shut up about 'needing' to see the financial details. Even if y'all were given the numbers, you wouldn't know what to do with them and it would only create a giant financial fanfiction circlejerk.
A) misguided concern. Therefore, seeing the numbers will somehow reassure these people that the game will be okay, even though they have no idea what each person is being paid, what the licensing or assets or office space will cost, or...
B) misguided desire to play "armchair analyst" like many on the internet love to do. Therefore, seeing the numbers will somehow allow these people to make sage proclamations as to what the appropriate way to spend the money would be, or allow them to judge how big the game will be, how many voice actors will be in it, etc.
Both propositions are idiotic. People should shut up about 'needing' to see the financial details. Even if y'all were given the numbers, you wouldn't know what to do with them and it would only create a giant financial fanfiction circlejerk.
michaeltraps
Member
For the life of me I don't understand why the people who were looking forward to this game can't just be happy. I don't care myself but if I could help make Half Life 3 or a new proper Metroid happen I don't really care what I have to do. Just bring me a great game, how doesn't really bother me.
This.
You donate to the development of the game and/or buy the game plus stuff related to it. Nothing Møre and nothing less.
Interficium
Banned
But if we get more numbers and transparency maybe we could get another thread as awesome and embarrassing as that legendary SkullGirls thread guys.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
RichiRamjag
Member
Majority of people who were looking forward to the game are happy and donated. Then you've got this other sect of people who haven't donated, and probably weren't going to donate trying to make a stink. It's disgusting imo. Everything always has to become a hot topic nowadays in gaming.
Green Wiggly
Member
Reading that was a waste of time.
Yeah, it's probably Decepticons or something. Be careful out there.
Yeah, it's probably Decepticons or something. Be careful out there.
Every article from polygon is trash. Don't go there and give them hits/clicks.
Finally! Found someone with the same circuitry as me on this matter.
Sony jumping on board is damn near a clean slate; projections are definitely skewed now, plus Yu-Suzuki is probably still shaking hands with Sony...even he probably doesn't know final budget numbers.
I said it before, and I'll just go ahead and say it again:
No different than a record label looking at an indie band's Facebook likes, and fan numbers to gauge whether to sign them or not.
Sheeple need to calm the fuck down!
maquiladora
Member
In a translated interview from the other thread, Yu Suzuki says that the majority of the funding will come from the Kickstarter. He decided to fund it through Kickstarter after considering it for 3 years and was not able to find a partner with a company that met his criteria.
Remachinate
Member
Is there a direct source for this? It would basically vindicate the article's concerns about the size of the budget if true.
Edit: From Gaffer translating the interview:
IrishNinja
Member
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
2 Slice Toaster
Member
Interesting. I assume your feelings on this are the same for SalesGAF, and for those who follow NPD/MediaCreate/etc. ?
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
Not really. The NPD/MediaCreate numbers are more or less given freely and publicly. In this case, people are calling for Dr Frankenstein to open his gates and give up the monster on the sole injustice that they want to know but they aren't getting the chance to know the budget.
Also, people can make some intelligent guesses and reasonable armchairing based on those hard sales numbers, e.g. "PS4 has sold 50k more than X1 each month for 6 months in a row. Microsoft better cut price or..."
I do not anticipate any such intelligent guesses that would - in any way - contribute to the topic if people got their hands on budget numbers. If the discussion was possible, people would already be bringing up the talking points to try to "prove" why we need to see the budget. At this point, the argument comes to a dead stop just prior to people giving these sort of details.
That leads me to believe no one really has anything smart to say about the budget. People are just #concern.
2 Slice Toaster
Member
There is still a struggle to ensure the information is available month to month, the recent drama involving Aqua is a strong indicator of that.
And the lack of readily available information to support any strong meaningful dialogue is not cause to shit on people who have a strong interest in understanding how games are made, and how the money goes into them. We have this for movies, why not games? Gamers and media continuing to express a strong interest, even demanding this information can only help in breaking down the barriers that prevent the meaningful armchair analysis that goes on in SalesGAF, but for budgets.
I appreciate you have no real passion for it, but its evident a large part of this community do, and having a better perspective on how games get made does not feel to me like all too bad a thing.
Remachinate
Member
You seem to be willfully ignoring the parts of this thread where those talking about have already been raised. We already know what the first two Shenmue games cost to produce. One doesn't need an itemized production budget to get a general sense of the scope of Shenmue 3 relative to the previous entries, merely an idea of the total committed funding from other parties. Why is it so unreasonable to present such a figure before asking the fans to part with their cash based on merely a promise?
Brianimaniac
Banned
Getting this vibe from the people bothered by this article:
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
If you're basing your "need" to know the numbers on the budget of a pair of games developed 15 years ago, under a different company, on a different console, with a different development team, in a different market environment...
...then I can comfortably stand my ground and say again: stop whining. You clearly have no idea what you'd do with the budget information, even if they gave it to you.
Also, you must not buy very many games. After all, since it's so important to know the financial information about a game before forking over cash, I'm sure all these retail games and indie games that don't offer the details of their budget must REEEEEALLLLY make you uneasy.
True, but despite the drama, I don't really see people getting up in arms saying "WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE, NINTENDO? NOT GIVING OUT SPECIFIC NUMBERS?!?!?"
"strong interest" is not the term I'd use here. Those in this thread who are demanding financial information seem to think that unless financial information is furnished, somehow something shady is going on and/or the true scope and nature of the game can never be truly trusted unless we see those numbers.
That's silly.
I don't follow movies too closely, but when a movie is first teased/announced do they also announce the planned budget for it? I think some movies do, but not all. And certainly not all games do this, either.
I have no problem with people wanting to do meaningful analysis and to get hard numbers. But in case I haven't made myself clear, that is not what I'm seeing in this thread. People are demanding numbers with the #concern that something is being hidden from us, and knowing the budget will dispel that cloud of doubt. I don't see how, but that seems to be the war-cry.
And ultimately, some things aren't going to be public. Boo hoo. No company is obligated to disclose this as far as I know.
I have nothing against people who have a "strong interest" in it and want to analyse what the numbers mean. And maybe that's how you view it. However, the article in the OP and several of the people in this thread on the same side of the article don't really seem to have "strong interest".
It's more like entitled know-nothings whipping up a fevered mob over something they'd like to know but really have no business commenting on.
2 Slice Toaster
Member
But what about if the information is important in determining what kind of game the consumer can expect? Over in the kickstarter thread, some people have expressed concern over comments from Suzuki that he expects the primary source of funding to be derived from individual backers, leading to speculation over how much funding Sony has really promised to assist in development. This in turn has led to people encouraging others to continue donating as much money as they can, since the lack of clarity over Sony's strength of support makes it uncertain the game will be the full-fledged experience unless KS patrons make it happen it themselves. This is in strong contrast to the notion previously put forward that the KS was merely a platform by which Shenmue 3 only had to prove its worth by hitting the 2 million milestone to earn Sony's complete support, which no longer appears to clearly be the case.
People shouldn't expect a complete breakdown of financial numbers, but a game that is drawing from Kickstarter as a primary funding source should be providing its backers with specific information in terms of the experience they can reasonably expect for their patronage. A $2 million budget Shenmue is considerably different from a 10, 20 50, 100, etc. Shenmue. Which one are consumers getting?
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
Lemme pose a situation: I have magical insight and I can tell you with confidence that the budget will be $10 million.
Now what? What does that mean? Please, if the information is SO important, what does that mean? Explain to me what that implies. What will the game have? What will it lack? How big will it be? I'd be very interested to hear some concrete info, because you're implying that knowing the number will then allow us to discern the above.
Next situation: the budget is $45 million. What does THAT mean? How much bigger will the game be? How many more voice-actors will we have? Will it have mulitplayer now? How many coin-op games will be included? Please, since you've made it clear that the fans NEED to know a dollar amount, what can be concluded now that you know the budget?
I'm all ears.
Elfforkusu
Member
So, turns out Yu Suzuki said something interesting about the budget in the Famitsu interview he did:
If the kickstarter is the majority of the money, that would seem to make the budget much less mysterious.
I read that as (1) negotiations for other funding are ongoing [Sony], e.g. the ink isn't dry, but (2) he doesn't expect to get much more than $2m out of Sony and friends.
If the kickstarter is the majority of the money, that would seem to make the budget much less mysterious.
Remachinate
Member
You come off as awfully condescending for someone who has no idea what my background is, nevermind everyone on this forum. But let's disregard expertise, and consider the simple fact that due to escalating production costs, combined with inflation, and make the safe conclusion that Shenmue 3 would require *at least* the same budget as its predecessors to reach the same level of quality. Shouldn't would-be backers be concerned if Sony isn't willing to put up that minimum? It's not rocket science.
You do understand the difference between weighing the purchase of a completed game on its merits and evaluating the risk of backing nothing more than a promise, don't you? Or are you just trolling?
At either of those figures, it's pretty safe to conclude you're not getting an AAA-quality title. For some fans, that'd be enough to think twice.
2 Slice Toaster
Member
Based on knowing what the previous game's cost, the 45 million dollar one is likely closer to recreating the experience of the original games?
I do not see where I set out to try to prove that fans absolutely NEED this information. I was simply pointing out how the uncertainty of the exact budget the developer is seeking for the project, in addition to the extent of the financial support of their highest profile backer has created uncertainty for people highly enthusiastic for the game over what kind of game they are going to get. Typically, the original goal amount of a kickstarter attempts to in some ways address this, but when you games use it merely as an initial proof of support, and you don't know have clear information on what other financial support a developer has, why do find it so ridiculous that people are putting forth questions?
I do not see where I set out to try to prove that fans absolutely NEED this information. I was simply pointing out how the uncertainty of the exact budget the developer is seeking for the project, in addition to the extent of the financial support of their highest profile backer has created uncertainty for people highly enthusiastic for the game over what kind of game they are going to get. Typically, the original goal amount of a kickstarter attempts to in some ways address this, but when you games use it merely as an initial proof of support, and you don't know have clear information on what other financial support a developer has, why do find it so ridiculous that people are putting forth questions?
As one of the people who's been arguing in favour of getting more information, I think that interview is fairly satisfying in terms of being able to set a general expectation. I'm fully on board with the game and the Kickstarter now.
Then you have completely misread the thread.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
I disagree with that conclusion, but at least we're getting somewhere and throwing real answers back and forth. I appreciate that.
Would it not also be fair to consider why Shenmue originally had a high cost?
First of all, Shenmue (or its prototype, rather) started development on the Saturn and then later was re-developed for Dreamcast as a tech demo, and then re-re-developed into Shenmue.
It was doing a multitude of new things in the videogame realm which increased the overall cost significantly. These things included:
- full orchestrated score plus two composers
- full voice acting for all characters and NPCs, in both Japanese and English
- extensive reference work (I think they used either dolls or clay models) for all of the animation for all of the character models
Coupled with fairly high-end graphics (for the time) and a long dev cycle, it's not surprising that the game was so expensive. But that was then. The development process and costs have changed dramatically since then. I don't see how the first game offers a valid reference point as to what the budget should be for Shenmue III.
Now, if someone could say "since Shenmue had x number of voice actors and approximately x hours of voice acting, paying that part part alone would cost x-million dollars". THEN we'd really be getting somewhere, wouldn't we? I actually don't have that expertise. I couldn't say one way or another what it would cost to match the hours of voice acting from the first game or what that would cost. But until we can start hashing out those numbers, I see no reason why the fans are owed a budget breakdown.
The difference between the two is that one usually has a few more trailers than the other. But you're right, poor example. A pre-order might be a better example. I'm still not seeing the purpose of why fans need to know the full scope of the budget before dropping their money.
But why wouldn't you be getting a AAA experience? That's all I'm asking. Actually, I take that back. Why would you need a AAA experience? Why does a Shenmue follow-up need to be AAA? I think that's a more important question.
I disagree that the original budget needs to be hit in order to create an experience of equal quality. I can understand people wanting more clarity (like, "Is Sony going to actually offer financial and development support or not?") but that has nothing to do with a final dollar amount.
Zomba13
Member
Probably when they were announced but not now. Shenmue 3 generates the clicks not those boring old Kickstarter successes.
fuck hahahahaha