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Will DotA 2: Reborn's custom games bring back the old Brood War/Warcraft 3 magic?
- Thread starter ScOULaris
- Start date
LurkerPrime
Member
Advent of the Zenith already exists.
I have the same concerns.
If a kid is good enough to script a Dota 2 mod, it means he's also a few simple lessons away from being good enough to script a Unity3d game instead. And between making a mod shackled to a game and making game that can be freely distributed, most people will prefer the second option.
It's a different and better world in which we live than when SC and WC3 mod scenes were alive. Now most of the people who would be hobbyist modders are instead full fledged indie devs who make more original works than ever, and get legit paid for it. I don't think many mod scenes can survive that change, but then again it isn't a bad change, on the contrary.
DivineRage002
Member
Ever played Garry's mod? Pretty sure you can import anything from Half-Life, TF2 or L4D/2 without too much trouble.
Besides, yes people CAN make their own game without having to know much more than they would to make a dota map, but it's not because you're a good script person, that you can make 3d models or even 2d sprites for your own game.
Making a full game requires various talents, making a dota 2 map only needs scripting as far as I know.
DivineRage002
Member
Guys doto is dead, no one will make maps for that scrub game.
Sorry just thought that was funny.
Interfectum
Member
Dota IMBA is pretty fun.
YES!
I'd be pretty happy if WC3 will finally rest at our LANs if it get's replaced with Dota2.
Vargavinter
Member
Bring us Enfos for the love of Link!
Yea I'm not sure why someone would make a mod for a game with 10 million monthly players when they could create their own game and having to source all their own assets.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
i fink ur avin a laff m8
eh don't really agree with this, how does it matter if an asset is official or not? I'm a hobbyist 3d modeler since 15 years and I'm thinking about making some tilesets and general purpose model packs that stay consistent with dota 2 in style. I'm sure there are many others like me.
Interfectum
Member
If anything Dota 2 is the perfect place to test your gameplay ideas for a full fledged game. Not having to worry about multiplayer coding and infrastructure will save a lot of time.
also down the line it's likely valve will allow monetization of mods which might be controversial but still a strong incentive for modders.
Yeah that seems in line with their treatment of Dota.
I'm really excited by this, it's still quite buggy and early days but this is my favourite feature in a long time. Really optimistic about the possibilities.
I think he's right, though, in that the increasing complexity of the Blizzard world editors meant you got some more and more impressive maps, but you also created a barrier to entry that fewer and fewer "normal" players were willing to cross. Mastering triggers and such in StarCraft was incredibly straightforward. Jumping from WarCraft III and StarCraft, you basically had to be a programmer or understand scripting to jump in and do much of anything. While Blizzard certainly hurt their custom game scene themselves with the Arcade, I think part of the reason SCII customs never reached the heights of previous titles had a lot to do with making the process of creating custom games harder.
There's obviously a question of balance—is it better to have more people contributing, or fewer (with the expectation they'll be higher quality, although this isn't guaranteed?) As others have pointed out, the modding scene isn't really the same ground for breaking into the industry and the tools for full-fledged games have become less complicated, meaning that I don't think there's the same gulf that helped foster the excellent custom content scene of previous games.
I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think you need to worry too much. Valve looks to be all in when it comes to supporting this burgeoning custom games scene, so I think we'll see even more official assets added to the editor in the future. We're only in beta, and there are already tons of unique assets to work with that aren't part of mainline DotA.
The only thing that we might not be able to get are things like DBZ maps because these days IP infringement is enforced. It's a bummer, I know, but I still think we'll see the same variety in terms of game design from these custom maps as we did in Brood War and WC3. We'll just have to do without the use of existing copyrighted IP's.
And I'll just take this opportunity to reiterate: fuck Blizzard for what they did to custom maps in SC2.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
There are a lot of reasons, but it is mostly a combination of the editor not being as user friendly as previous games and the entire B.net 2.0/arcade structure just being totally mishandled/poorly designed when it comes to supporting a thriving custom map ecosystem.
Mostly because the Arcade system for custom maps in Bnet 2.0 made it really difficult for newer or less popular maps to ever be discovered and played. It quickly devolved into a situation where only the Top 5 most popular maps ever had people playing, and the rest would just fade into the background. It killed all incentive for would-be map developers because it became impossible to garner exposure for their new maps, let alone test them and get them to a point where they were polished and fun.
Oh, and the lack of chat rooms killed all sense of community that would've been expected after all of those years in Bnet 1.0. Fucking boneheaded decisions all around.
Long story short, Blizzard ruined everything and now Valve is attempting to right the wrongs of the past.
me0wish
Member
If the switching existed, it always failed that I forgot it's even there, and it suffered the same problems that DOTA suffers from now, it was always bad, but bad didn't stop it from being fun.
Yesterday I spent a couple of hours just to try to play 1 decent custom match and I just gave up, I literally got stuck in a loop of afk hosts for a total of 30+ minutes.
It was definitely never an issue in Brood War. AFK hosts were rare, and a host leaving mid-game didn't kick everyone else out.
At least I don't remember the game ending when the host left.
Yes indeed. Fantasy RTS has pretty much been dead since Warcraft 3. Nothing but military and space RTS as far as the eye can see these days.
no doubt there will be great modelers out there that adhere to valve's style but having art assets come directly from valve's in-house artists is something i'd prefer. it's world building from the source. again, it's not that big of a deal but inconsistency (in this case, art assets) can distract from a game at times. anyways these are custom games after all, the most important part is if it's fun! (i played some skillshot wars and survival co-op last night which were pretty fun despite the connection/bug setbacks)
stretch goals for TI6: new art assets to work with for custom games!
I highly recommend Enfo's Team Survival as well. Two 5-man teams defend against increasingly difficult waves of creeps on separate sides of the map. The first team to succumb to the horde loses. It's pretty fun.
And of course Overthrow is great as well. And Bomberman.
It won't be precisely the same because the modding/indie landscape is different now, but there's much to be gained from working using an established asset set and an established audience.
Just as an example, Heroes of the Storm has shown that there's a substantial audience for the Lord Manager formula without all the traditional trappings (laning phase, last hitting, items, 30+ minute commitments, etc). There's plenty of people who'd like to play these games but want something more bite sized and immediately fulfilling, and that's the niche HOTS is going for. But the pay-for-heroes model isn't very appealing.
What if, just as a hypothetical, there was a way to retool DOTA 2 to provide the mechanically appealing aspects of HOTS without the business that weighs it down?
Now there is.
Just as an example, Heroes of the Storm has shown that there's a substantial audience for the Lord Manager formula without all the traditional trappings (laning phase, last hitting, items, 30+ minute commitments, etc). There's plenty of people who'd like to play these games but want something more bite sized and immediately fulfilling, and that's the niche HOTS is going for. But the pay-for-heroes model isn't very appealing.
What if, just as a hypothetical, there was a way to retool DOTA 2 to provide the mechanically appealing aspects of HOTS without the business that weighs it down?
Now there is.
i've got enfos downloaded but wasn't able to get into a match, hopefully tonight i'll have better luck. what i'm really looking forward to are the RPGs that come out of this (which i imagine will be a while from now.)
Yeah, same here. So far Warchasers is the closest you're gonna get.
I think months down the line we'll start seeing some more fully developed RPG maps, though, and I can't wait. RPG maps were always my favorite in Brood War. I snatched up and collected every one I ever came across.
wow, that warchasers map looks pretty neat, i'll have to download that one later. SC RPGs were also some of my favorites, i really enjoyed the Diablo Acts that came out; although finding them hosted or to even download was very rare, but awesome when i was able to.
Wait, is there no "trigger" editor in Dota 2 editor? Based on Valve's overview, it seems scripting is in but that's all.
Would go wonderfully with tile-based editor.
I wonder because Blizzard's trigger system was great for beginners. I recall that one could create quite complex systems with SC1s trigger editor...
And it was quite intuitive. I was like 11-12, figured it out by studying Blizzard's maps triggers.
Scripting is not something i can do. (Well, i could probably learn it but sure won't be as easy as a simple trigger system.)
One could argue it is limiting compared to scripting but i'd argue it will give beginner modders a stepping stone. It is encouraging to see you can do something, and i think it gives one more motivation to learn more complex systems.
EDIT Apparently scripts can be saved or something? So one could theoretically make a "script library" and use them as needed? And possibly export and import them as well?
Would go wonderfully with tile-based editor.
I wonder because Blizzard's trigger system was great for beginners. I recall that one could create quite complex systems with SC1s trigger editor...
And it was quite intuitive. I was like 11-12, figured it out by studying Blizzard's maps triggers.
Scripting is not something i can do. (Well, i could probably learn it but sure won't be as easy as a simple trigger system.)
One could argue it is limiting compared to scripting but i'd argue it will give beginner modders a stepping stone. It is encouraging to see you can do something, and i think it gives one more motivation to learn more complex systems.
EDIT Apparently scripts can be saved or something? So one could theoretically make a "script library" and use them as needed? And possibly export and import them as well?
That looks nice, beat warchasers last night and was looking for other similar stuff
Is there a functioning Footman Frenzy map out there? The one we tried yesterday, which is just called Footman Frenzy, was buggy as hell. All creeps looked the same, creeps didn't attack heroes and could in fact be controled by enemy players and the teams got all mixed up.
Also, a friend of mine is trying to find this minigame that he played at lans a decade or so ago. He says it was 3v3 fighting against a horde of creeps coming at you. He doesn't remember the name unfortunately. It wasn't Hero Line Wars but something similar.
And does anyone know if a Takeshis Castle game is in the making or if it is too complex to be made in Dota? That shit is so much fun playing with your friends.
Also, a friend of mine is trying to find this minigame that he played at lans a decade or so ago. He says it was 3v3 fighting against a horde of creeps coming at you. He doesn't remember the name unfortunately. It wasn't Hero Line Wars but something similar.
And does anyone know if a Takeshis Castle game is in the making or if it is too complex to be made in Dota? That shit is so much fun playing with your friends.
Not yet. That one you mentioned is in active development, I think, but it's still very early. Without a doubt we'll see dozens of Footmen Frenzy games down the line.
Better to spend time on scripting ideas for Dreams and win that short films Oscar.
Its a better way to get fame and money, its what these modders really want. I know one.
Well the question answers itself: you can only live off one of the two.
Besides good quality generic assets aren't that hard nor expensive to get nowadays.
My point is if the two are almost as hard to do, picking the mod path isn't that attractive. It would've been better if the dota mod tools were much easier and without script knowledge required, like starcraft and WC3 tools were. But if you need to be a semi-pro scripter, you're much better off making your own stuff.
Definitely to be expected this early on. It'll take some time before we start seeing more finished, polished custom games. At least Valve plans on releasing more of their own in the coming weeks.
Just about everything besides Overthrow was made with the source 2 alpha tools which was extremely limited compared to what they just released.
Indeed, just ignore the Riot PR.
The castle fight (Ancient Wars) port seems promising, but still very basic.
I can't find Element TD, but afaik it exist.
edit:
~end of 2014
So here are the custom maps I've played so far that are polished and worth playing:
- Reflex
- DotA Strikers
- Bomberman
- Warchasers
- Skillshot Wars
- Goldrush
- Overthrow (obviously)
Pretty damn good selection for being only a few days into the beta, and most of these were built with the more limited alpha tools.
- Reflex
- DotA Strikers
- Bomberman
- Warchasers
- Skillshot Wars
- Goldrush
- Overthrow (obviously)
Pretty damn good selection for being only a few days into the beta, and most of these were built with the more limited alpha tools.
OnionPowder
Member
Skillshot Wars is my jam. I haven't played a normal dota match in a while just strictly playing custom games.
If you liked that I highly recommend Reflex. It's very polished and unique.
voodoopanda
Member
The time spent in WC3 custom games was some of the most fun I've ever had with a game. If this can capture even just a piece of that magic it should be a lot of fun.
Where's Wintermaul?
Where's Wintermaul?
It'll come, but it will take a while. The beta editing tools just went live a few days ago, so it'll be months before we start seeing more robust, polished custom games.
That being said, there are already a good number of fun games in the Workshop right now. Most of them were made with the alpha toolset and ported to work with Reborn, so really they're only a small glimpse at what's possible in the future.
Sorry to bump a slightly old thread, but I wanted to check in and see what everyone thinks about how the "scene" is developing one week in. It's still very early, but I've already found a good handful of maps that are relatively polished and lots of fun to play:
- Reflex
- Archer Wars
- DotA Strikers
- Skillshot Wars
- Goldrush
- Bomberman
- Slide Ninja Slide