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[Game4life]

I just want Dragon Age games to have subtitles on the bottom.

Why they dont? I have not played them.

 

[VaultBoy101]

Don't bother reading them, you won't find a story there anyway.

I don't have time to explain why you don't have time to read this.

 

[FLAguy954]

I could not find a better picture but I was ltt(HD)p so I had to play Gears of War 2 on a CRT. Those subtitles are impossible as fuck to read on one.

 

[Zonic]

Some of the early-era 360 (& maybe some PS3?) games had unreadable text at times if you didn't play on a HD. I recall having trouble reading some of the text when I was playing Final Fantasy 13.

 

[timetokill]

I love the self-referential style here. Rare knew it was bullshit and made Banjo and Kazooie squint to read the text.

 

[Dreamwriter]

did they ever fix that? Always heard the game had good story, but i wouldn't know because i can't read shit at 1440p

Nope - though they eventually made the text larger on the PS4 version. PC remains tiny and unalterable.

 

[ianhamilton-]

It did. They were just really, REALLY small!

It didn't have any! Something good came of it though, as a result of the public outcry, Ubisoft made it a requirement that every game published through them from that point onwards had to have subtitles.

 

[ianhamilton-]

which is weird because eye sight gets worst with age


And are the game developers even responsible for subs? Aren't they usually outsourced?

The production of the subtitles themselves is often outsourced, but that's just the text itself, the technical side of it, i.e. the system that displays the subtitles and how they're presented, is always in-house.

 

[ianhamilton-]

I want to slap the person at Sentai who decided to make subtitles GREEN when a second person is talk. Like holy crap, it just looks terrible.

Not sure if these count , but games like Persona 4/Arena, which has a stronger focus on dialogue boxes, have very nice size text.

Big font with a background to make it easier to read. Though granted, with these types of games with a huge focus on dialogue/text, they probably spend a good amount of time making sure that you can read the text as well.

Well CNET's survey reckoned that 79% of people play with subtitles turned on. If those figures hold true for the wider industry, that means that EVERY game that has subtitles has a huge focus on dialogue/text.

 

[Vashzaron]

The worst I've seen is Final Fantasy XIV's dialogue text. It's tiny, and the higher the resolution of your screen, the smaller the text is. Everything else in the game can be scaled bigger or use larger fonts, but not the subtitles. I have a 40" 4k TV, and if I want to read the subtitles (and often non-voiced cutscenes), I have to lower the resolution to 1080p.

IIRC in the HUD layout editor thing, hit Ctrl + Home to rescale stuff.

Edit: Oh guess this may be one of those unscalable things.

 

[OccamsBlender]

Also, learn to put in proper freaking dramatic pauses in subtitles. I hate accidentally reading too far and "spoiling" the next line because a 5 second pause is totally ignored by the subtitles.

Not sure I want subtitles as big as the examples though honestly. TLOU were fine by me, but options would be nice. I have them on at all times in most games but don't want them super obtrusive either.

Some people need more time to read. The ability to change font size and all text vs word as read would be nice but the extra development cost, QA time would mean we'd never see these features.

 

[ianhamilton-]

I thought about this before, but it might be better of have a set of subtitles and then a set of closed captions. Until I thought about it I didn't consider how the two are different, but they are in the sense that closed captions clearly aims to capture as much sound as possible into text form, whereas subtitles largely serve to put spoken word into text form.

Obviously the most ideal approach is to have fully customizable subtitles/closed captions, but if that's not viable or is 'too much effort', having plain readable font size and font in two categories is sufficient.

Yes, subtitles just cover speech, and captions cover additional important background information.

Subtitles were originally for showing text in a different language to the recorded audio, and captions are for when you can't hear the recorded audio.

But it's not really like that now, clearly subtitles are predominantly used in the same way as captions.

Full closed captions are very rare in games. There are some companies who provide them though, such as Crystal Dynamics (full captions only), Valve (choice between subs and captions), and game kitchen (choice between subs and captions).

Either way though I don't think that captions/subs is an effective way to split presentation, as so many people use subs as captions. What's needed is pretty simple.. a good clear default, then if resources allow, some basic configuration on colour and letterboxing, then if more resources allow, some more advanced configuration on size, font, etc.

 

[ianhamilton-]

Some people need more time to read. The ability to change font size and all text vs word as read would be nice but the extra development cost, QA time would mean we'd never see these features.

Not really, it's pretty trivial compared to most other stuff in the development of a game.

I've seen font choice done by a small indie with hardly any time or money, it took one developer two days to implement, with minimal QA impact. It was to give the option to swap out the default pixel font for an easy-read dyslexia friendly font. 14% of the first 150,000 people to play the game through to completion did so with the alternative font selected, so not at all a bad return on investment.

 

[mclem]

This is an excellent point, and one I'd not really thought of.

I suspect the key problem here is that subtitles are something of an afterthought, and therefore only really get properly scrutinised in a desktop environment when they're implemented and for a brief initial test. Since - at least for the dev I worked for - opportunities to do big-screen tests were both uncommon and reserved more for showcasing than actual proper testing - and space constraints make it hard to have, say, a big-screen test farm! - it's something that I can see why would get missed.

I've seen font choice done by a small indie with hardly any time or money, it took one developer two days to implement, with minimal QA impact. It was to give the option to swap out the default pixel font for an easy-read dyslexia friendly font. 14% of the first 150,000 people to play the game through to completion did so with the alternative font selected, so not at all a bad return on investment.

How long did it take to confirm that all text strings in all languages fit accurately within the screen constraints?

 

[mclem]

This seems like a good idea, actually, since you can track who's speaking by the colour and their character name.

Old-style British TV subtitles would colour-code based on character (sometimes with a brief key at the start of the programme). Don't know if they still do in the digital TV age, they certainly don't on iPlayer.

 

[cyberheater]

Uhm, yes. I'm not a native english speaker.

Your english is pretty good.

 

[mclem]

Professional subtitlers unite!

Automated subtitlers you night!

 

[Nintendojitsu]

I don't think developers or publishers are even aware of such a problem. It's not like the reviewers (who's job it is to do so) make an effort to point this out. Most of the time it goes often ignored when in actuality, it is a very import part of the games overall presentation and should be treated as such.

 

[LiegeWaffle]

I don't mind smaller subtitles on PC, since I am fairly close to the screen and the text I normally read is much smaller anyways. And for consoles, I use HDMI switch connected to the same monitor.

I do understand why this is frustrating for people who play in their living room with large TVs. Tweakable font size in subtitles sounds like something every game should have and should not be that hard to program.

 

[Visualante2]

Market research shows only 3-6% of players use subtitles, we really can't afford to dedicate more time and resources to this issue. Sorry.

edit. Just wanted to say that I was joking. I think that is how publishers see features like this.

 

[Philippo]

Playing PC Comfy Couch Mode, The Witcher 2 subtitles were fucking awful.

I actually had to download a mod which made them bigger.

They also have subtitles floating over NPCs heads and they're hardly readable too.

Pls fix this for TW3 (especially on console) CDPR.

 

[oneils]

Market research shows only 3-6% of players use subtitles, we really can't afford to dedicate more time and resources to this issue. Sorry.

Is this legit? I'd be very surprised if it's that low.

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

I don't understand why people who aren't deaf or don't speak a different language from the game would use subtitles. I just find them distracting.

 

[Mr Git]

Good thread, this is also a particular bugbear of mine. I despise having subtitles act as spoilers due to inaccurate line breaks and timing. Also font colour/size/drop shadows are really important, I've no idea who started ubiquitous yellow subtitles with no drop shadow but they need a painful poke in the ribs.

 

[ianhamilton-]

Market research shows only 3-6% of players use subtitles, we really can't afford to dedicate more time and resources to this issue. Sorry.

Is this legit? I'd be very surprised if it's that low.

No, not legit at all. I'd love to see the source of that data.

Even in TV-land the figure (in the UK) is 12.5%. And usage of subtitles when watching TV is far far less common than when playing games.

The best data that there currently is for games is the CNET survey on subtitle use, the results of which were that 79% of respondents played with subtitles turned on.

There's also a little bit of specific data from a game called The Last Door. Not on subtitles, because subtitles are permanantly on, you can't turn them off. But they had an extra option for closed captions, i.e. additional subtitles to describe background sounds (e.g. "crows cawing").

Even those additional closed captions for background sounds, which are much less commonly used than subtitles, were used by 12.33% of the first 150,000 players to play through to completion.

 

[ianhamilton-]

I don't understand why people who aren't deaf or don't speak a different language from the game would use subtitles. I just find them distracting.

Lots of reasons! There are people like yourself who find them too distracting, but they're often relied on by people who aren't deaf due to playing in a noisy environment (e.g. a group of friends talking while playing), playing on a mobile device without headphones, playing with the volume turned down due to the baby being asleep, or even simply because the audio mix in games is often either poor or unpredictable, with for example a big explosion or loud bit of music going off just at the point that you're receiving an important bit of in-game dialogue.

 

[jamesinclair]

Games are not covered by the same laws. The only way they're covered is online games, where their primary use is communication rather than gameplay, in which case they come under the FCC's juristiction.. somewhat predictably the games industry played for a waiver on the law when it came into effect, which they managed to get based on the dev lifecycle time of games. That waiver is due to expire in 2015 though, so interesting times ahead.

There are two ways to file (and win) a disability discrimination lawsuit:

-Letter of the law violation
-Spirit of the law violation

So we know you cant file a letter of the law suit for games because the laws were written before games were on peoples mind.

But spirit of the law? Absolutely. If sound is a critical component of the experience, which it is in these cinematic games, and a death person is excluded from the experience due to the lack of proper closed captioning, thats discriminatory, and it's a lawsuit I think one could easily win.

TV closed captioning is actually required by the FCC, instead of ADA. Movie closed captioning is actually not required at all, but every DVD and most modern cinemas include the option.

Why? Because the movie people know that even though theyre not required by law, if they didnt do it, theyd be sued and lose. And they're worried the requirements set forth by a court might be more difficult to meet then what they do today, which works well. So they do it anyway, and everyone is happy.


Heres an example of a spirit of the law suit, which I may be getting wrong, as its from memory:

Letter of the law required all new cinemas to be accessible to folks in wheelchair.

So cinemas starting building stadium seating theaters, where you entered at ground level, and walked up the stairs to seats. They removed a few seats by the entrance, and folks in wheelchairs would have to watch from the very bottom.

AKA, the worst seat in the house. Even though that met the initial letter of the law, the cinemas were sued and it was found to be discriminatory.

Youll note that in all new theaters, you walk in around the middle, with maybe 5 rows down and 10 rows up. That way, the wheelchairs can access very good seats. It's more expensive, as you have to dig down when constructing the theater, but it is fair to everybody.

Likewise, in flat theater, they used to put wheelchair at the very back. During retrofits, they now remove a couple of aisle seats in the middle.

Point is, even though the law doesn't spell out that video games need to provide closed captioning, I believe they can be sued because not providing them is discriminatory, and not an undue hardship

 

[IntelliHeath]

I don't see why you couldn't file an ADA lawsuit and win some serious money.

Television and cinema don't offer closed captioning because they're nice, they do it due to accessibility law.

I would like to believe that it's not applying to video games yet so I don't think we can sue them for that. If there are a law, then God of Wars, Assassin Creeds, and other games would have subtitles in first place.

Edited: Never mind. Someone already beat me to it.

Games are not covered by the same laws. The only way they're covered is online games, where their primary use is communication rather than gameplay, in which case they come under the FCC's juristiction.. somewhat predictably the games industry played for a waiver on the law when it came into effect, which they managed to get based on the dev lifecycle time of games. That waiver is due to expire in 2015 though, so interesting times ahead.

 

[jamesinclair]

I would like to believe that it's not applying to video games yet so I don't think we can sue them for that. If there are a law, then God of Wars, Assassin Creeds, and other games would have subtitles in first place.

Edited: Never mind. Someone already beat me to it.

Youd be best to read the post directly above yours

 

[rapid32.5]

Wolfenstein New Order had a terrible text I couldn't read shit. there should be an option to choose text size and font.

 

[The Hermit]

Thank you Jett, I though I was the only one.

Zombi U subtiles are ridiculous, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYKMmL7X94c

 

[Darkangel]

The Evil Within is permanently letterboxed on console yet they didn't use the space for subtitles. On top of that the subtitles fade the bottom of the viewing window giving you even less visibility.

 

[10k]

Oh good. I thought I was the only one. Thought I needed a stronger prescription or something.

I support this thread.

 

[Mohasus]

I started F.E.A.R. today and...

Funny thing, there is a Hud text scaling option that does nothing.

 

[Dezeer]

I started F.E.A.R. today and...

Funny thing, there is a Hud text scaling option that does nothing.

Old game, things break, use this: http://pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/F.E.A.R.#Small_subtitles

 

[Louis Cyphre]

Why do so many games have subtitles on by default? I hate that. Do people watch movies with subtitles on too even if they understand the dialogue spoken?

 

[adj_noun]

Do people watch movies with subtitles on too even if they understand the dialogue spoken?

I do. I tend to mishear or not understand some lines sometimes, and subtitles help with that.

If I have something completely memorized I don't use 'em (Jurassic Park, for example) but other than that I tend to if it's an option.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

On the subject I sometimes forget to turn them on which really fucking annoys me because I have to at best pause the game and at worst hack out to the main menu.

Infamous First light, the moment someone started talking it popped up with press triangle to turn on subtitles. Fucking revolutionary.

 

[Abdozer]

I have to agree, I'm hard of hearing and some subtitles are just downright terrible. I really have no choice though, it really sucks when some games have no subtitles since that's a gamebreaker for me. I know Singularity doesn't have subtitles so I never played it even though it's in my Steam library. It came out in 2009, why doesn't it have subtitles?

 

[Saiyan-Rox]

I absolutely can't stand when the subtitles aren't the same as what's being said. it's increasing as of late when the character says one thing and the subtitles have something completely different.

 

[ianhamilton_]

With the help of a few friends I've written up a piece on best practices for subtitle/caption design, quoting a number of posts from this thread as part of it:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/IanH...subtitles_well__basics_and_good_practices.php

It has had a quite staggering amount of interest on social media, from the smallest indies through to one of the biggest AAAs, so with any luck we might see to see some better practices start creeping in over the next year or so.

 

[JoduanER2]

Yeah, subtitles in video games are the worst. Absolute worst. I support this thread, good day sir!

As i! Subtitles in videogames suck, tiny and no breaks.

 

[Biker19]

I would have to agree.

 

[DieH@rd]

I like larger subtitles.

But Tomb Raider reboot takes the prize for most fucked up approach. I don't know what idiot choose to implement subtitles like that.

 

[diggmcbadass]

They're almost always tuned towards someone playing on a monitor, so I have no problem with them.

 

[Fractal]

Being that I play on the PC, can't say I ever had any problems with subtitles size or font. I only find it a bit annoying when subtitles are out of sync or different from what the characters are saying, but that's rare.

 

[echoshifting]

With the help of a few friends I've written up a piece on best practices for subtitle/caption design, quoting a number of posts from this thread as part of it:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/IanH...subtitles_well__basics_and_good_practices.php

It has had a quite staggering amount of interest on social media, from the smallest indies through to one of the biggest AAAs, so with any luck we might see to see some better practices start creeping in over the next year or so.

Excellent piece, I read the whole thing.

 

[TC McQueen]

With the help of a few friends I've written up a piece on best practices for subtitle/caption design, quoting a number of posts from this thread as part of it:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/IanHa..._practices.php

It has had a quite staggering amount of interest on social media, from the smallest indies through to one of the biggest AAAs, so with any luck we might see to see some better practices start creeping in over the next year or so.

Great article man; I'm glad to hear it's getting a lot of exposure since this is such a big issue for players.

 

[mrklaw]

Maybe let me select from a couple of sizes.

Subtitles work differently for me in games Vs movies.

In movies it is because you need to read the subtitles to understand what is being said. Either the native language is different or you are deaf/hard of hearing.

In games you may be deaf, but people that can hear fine may want subtitles to ensure they don't miss a plot point as a cutscene unfolds. That is why I switch them on.

For those situations full size subtitles may be too obtrusive. Small is fine as they are only there as a backup to my primary listening

 

[Garlador]

Dragon Age: Inquisition suffers not only from tiny subtitles, but the baffling decision to stick them at the TOP of the screen.

Why? Just... why?!