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[shinobi602]

In August 1945, during the final stage of the Second World War, the United States dropped atomic bombs on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The two bombings, which killed at least 129,000 people, remain the only use of nuclear weapons for warfare in history.

It's a divisive subject in American history, regardless: RIP to all the innocent lives killed.



President Truman announces the bombing of Hiroshima: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trumann_hiroshima.ogg
Footage of the bombing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t19kvUiHvAE



Civilians after the bombing:

Strike order for the bombing of Hiroshima:

The mushroom cloud billows about one hour after a nuclear bomb was detonated above Hiroshima, Japan on Aug. 6, 1945. Three days later, on Aug. 9, 1945, the United States bombed Nagasaki. The bombs, nicknamed Little Boy and Fat Man, killed a combined 129,000-246,000 people and ushered in the nuclear age.

Hiroshima aftermath:

Before(left) and after(right) the bombing:

 

[Log4Girlz]

Ushered in the nuclear age and ended total war. What a terrible price to pay.

 

[Africanus]

Even 70 years later thousands of people are still receiving care for the effects of the atomic bombs.

Their suffering has never ended.

 

[AmyS]

CNN has a piece:

A tricycle, a toddler and an atomic bomb

A battered tricycle. Melted coins. A shredded shirt. Seventy years have passed, but artifacts and survivors still provide tangible links to the world's first act of nuclear warfare.

 

[Shadow_Lord]

The infamous permanent shadows of Hiroshima.

 

[wsippel]

Ushered in the nuclear age and ended total war. What a terrible price to pay.

Many historians these days would argue that the war was already basically over and the only reason the nukes were used was because the US had them, they were expensive, and they wanted to test them. And impress the Soviets.

 

[Africanus]

Many historians these days would argue that the war was already over and the only reason the nukes were used was because the US had them, they were expensive, and they wanted to test them. And impress the Soviets.

As much as I feel the atomic bombing was unjustified, let us not create a thread revolving around the age old argument.

 

[Lionheart1827]

The crazy thing about that aerial picture of the aftermath is that the power of it is considered super small compared to a modern hydrogen bomb.

We're talking a fart compared to a hurricane.

 

[Poeton]

As an American I understand why we did this. But as a nation I consider it a great shame for what we did.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Many historians these days would argue that the war was already basically over and the only reason the nukes were used was because the US had them, they were expensive, and they wanted to test them. And impress the Soviets.

Doesn't surprise me at all.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

There was a good documentary about it from BBC on Netflix, "BBC History of World War II: Hiroshima (2005)",

here is a clip from it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4x7G_AOL8k

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

As much as I feel the atomic bombing was unjustified, let us not create a thread revolving around the age old argument.

Yeah, that thread is already happening.

Should get down to Genbaku Dome this weekend

 

[tearsintherain]

Pretty sure 80% or more of Americans you ask on the street would have no idea what happened in Hiroshima or Nagasaki and probably around the same in major parts of the world. Which is kind of sad and scary.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

And trains kept running.

Anyone who goes on a trip to Japan owes it to themselves and the memory of this destructive war to visit Hiroshima and the museum/ peace park in particular (I promise it is an interesting city regardless, it's not like going to Auschwitz). Their exhibitions really do a good job of helping you understand the destruction of the atomic bomb. I left there wondering how could such a thing could have been allowed to happen - a week later in Okinawa I got my answer when I saw how much people had suffered there under the hands of the Japanese military who forced then into a state of total war, and so my personal belief is that the alternative to the atomic bombs would have been worse.

I'll be sure to ask my Tokyo high school students how they feel about it, I wonder if it is as distant and irrelevant to them as many European teenagers seem to feel about WW2.

 

[Africanus]

I'll be sure to ask my Tokyo high school students how they feel about it, I wonder if it is as distant and irrelevant to them as many European teenagers seem to feel about WW2.

Well it has been quite literally an entire lifetime (70 years). Although while they shouldn't be overly emotional, I do hope a sense of objectivity and respect regarding the past would be more common.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Well it has been quite literally an entire lifetime (70 years). Although while they shouldn't be overly emotional, I do hope a sense of objectivity and respect regarding the past would be more common.

Yeah I'm not suggesting teens are immoral or uncaring, it is just a barometer for how quickly an event is being forgotten. I don't think many of them go on trips to Hiroshima for example.

 

[Savitar]

May it never happen again.

Too much to hope for perhaps.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

Funny how the country that preaches about nuclear disarmament to certain countries that have attained the weapon is the only one to have used it.

One of the greatest atrocities in human history.

Rest in peace to all of the men, women, and children that lost their lives that day.

I mean, it's not like the US is the only country preaching nuclear disarmament.

 

[water_wendi]

Yeah I'm not suggesting teens are immoral or uncaring, it is just a barometer for how quickly an event is being forgotten. I don't think many of them go on trips to Hiroshima for example.

The horror of nuclear war is far enough away that the countries younger generations doesnt really seem to care. This.. is not good.

edit:
clarified i was talking about all young generations and not just Japan.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Many historians these days would argue that the war was already basically over and the only reason the nukes were used was because the US had them, they were expensive, and they wanted to test them. And impress the Soviets.

Many revisionist historians, maybe. The U.S. was absolutely preparing for an invasion of mainland Japan when the bombs when the top officials were made aware of the bombs being finished, and the more complexly designed one having been proven to work. Japan's ability to win the war was long past, but the Japanese had demonstrated that infamous "to the last man" fanaticism again and again throughout the Pacific campaign and were actually training women and children in the area where the invasion was expected to come to engage in what were effectively low-tech kamikaze attacks. Shit was fucked up.

 

[Mobius 1]

It must never be forgotten. It ended a state of total war, served as a warning against the true horror of nuclear weapons, and it may even have saved lives in the long run.

But what a price to pay.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Well it has been quite literally an entire lifetime (70 years). Although while they shouldn't be overly emotional, I do hope a sense of objectivity and respect regarding the past would be more common.

Unfortunately, the war isn't really talked about or taught in Japan as the subject was taboo for a very long time and bomb survivors were and still are subject to discrimination, so most young people are largely ignorant about the events. It's complicated further by the right wing governments denials and revisions.

 

[matt360]

I ran by the A-Bomb Dome last night, and I'll probably go tonight to the 灯ろう流し (lit paper lanterns floating down the river). It's always beautiful.

Hiroshima is a pretty cool city. They've come a long, long way in 70 years.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Many historians these days would argue that the war was already basically over and the only reason the nukes were used was because the US had them, they were expensive, and they wanted to test them. And impress the Soviets.

The ultimate result was an end to total war.

 

[Team Alucard]

Japan surrendered because the Soviet Union broke the non-aggression pact and invaded Manchuria. The bomb was entirely unnecessary.

 

[GK86]

May the people rest in peace. Terrible thing the US did.

 

[HORRORSHØW]

unconscionable

 

[Late Flag]

The crazy thing about that aerial picture of the aftermath is that the power of it is considered super small compared to a modern hydrogen bomb.

This is the part that always blows me away. You see all the devastation caused by these, and they were the little ones. Thank goodness we never got to see what the big ones would do.

I'm in the camp that's firmly convinced that WWII was never going to end without a whole bunch of Japanese civilians dying. I have no quarrels with the actual atomic bombings that took place, given their historical context. I'm thankful that humankind managed to get through the next several decades without repeating this kind of tragedy on an even larger scale.

 

[Bodacious]

I lived in downtown Hiroshima (Naka-ku, Funairi-machi) for a year in the early 90's. It's a damned somber place to be on August 6, I can tell you that. I got up to go to work that morning, vaguely aware of what day it was but not fixated on it, and after the shower/shave went out to catch the streetcar to work. But it wasn't one of the usual streetcars that ran in Hiroshima in those days (which were, interestingly enough, retired Los Angeles streetcars). This streetcar was much older looking, with wooden floors and benches, leather grab handles, like something out of a Ghibli movie. I learned after getting to work and mentioning it that I had been fortunate enough to get a ride on one of the few pre-bomb streetcars that had survived in functional condition.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Funny how the country that preaches about nuclear disarmament to certain countries that have attained the weapon is the only one to have used it.

One of the greatest atrocities in human history.

Rest in peace to all of the men, women, and children that lost their lives that day.

I really don't understand what the point of your post is. Should I be upset and be against nuclear disarmament? Is US really the only country preaching it?

 

[Aurongel]

It's sickening to imagine that something like this saved lives in the long run, above all else it's a stern reminder of what the Cold War could have looked like.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

The ultimate result was an end to total war.

Eh, I'd say it's more of a pause until the next tier of horror is discovered. Granted we have things like the Geneva Convention and provisions against biological warfare, but if some government decides they REALLY want someone else's resources, well...

 

[Machina]

The fact that Hiroshima was microscopic on the Nuclear scale should be cause for great concern. These weapons will end us if we don't get rid of them entirely.

 

[AlimNassor]

No justification. It was an atrocity, a war crime if you will. Those who gave the order should have been arrested and imprisoned. Japan was surrendering, it wasn't if, they were but, we wanted to impress the Soviets. Horrific.

 

[Skyzard]

No justification of course, how could there be. Truly an atrocity, like many things in war, this was just on an unreal scale/incident.

 

[soulassssns]

As an American I understand why we did this. But as a nation I consider it a great shame for what we did.

I feel the same way...

 

[Log4Girlz]

Eh, I'd say it's more of a pause until the next tier of horror is discovered. Granted we have things like the Geneva Convention and provisions against biological warfare, but if some government decides they REALLY want someone else's resources, well...

So 70 years on we're still waiting for a war on the scale of a WW2 or WW1? I would say these horrific bombs did more to save lives than any other weapon ever created. Machine guns were created to be so horrific they would curtail war. They did not. Air bombing was created to be so horrific it would curtail war. Many horrific weapons that caused countless millions of lives were made to curtail war, but they didn't. At least these weapons kept the major powers in check and prevented death on such massive scales as we saw during the world wars. Not that war has vanished and isn't horrific, but certainly their scale has been limited.

Maybe one day we can do away with war altogether. But I do not see that as ever being a possibility without nuclear weapons as deterrents.

 

[Piecake]

Japan surrendered because the Soviet Union broke the non-aggression pact and invaded Manchuria. The bomb was entirely unnecessary.

Tsuyoshi Hasegawa, the historian has done the most definitive study on the relationship between the Soviet Union, the US and Japanese surrender (or at least the most research) in this book, argues that "Without the twin shocks of the atomic bombs and the Soviet entry into the war, the Japanese never would have surrendered in August."

No justification. It was an atrocity, a war crime if you will. Those who gave the order should have been arrested and imprisoned. Japan was surrendering, it wasn't if, they were but, we wanted to impress the Soviets. Horrific.

There is no evidence that they were contemplating surrender.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/52502

 

[Rafterman]

Doesn't surprise me at all.

Doesn't surprise me that you'd believe it.

Many revisionist historians, maybe. The U.S. was absolutely preparing for an invasion of mainland Japan when the bombs when the top officials were made aware of the bombs being finished, and the more complexly designed one having been proven to work. Japan's ability to win the war was long past, but the Japanese had demonstrated that infamous "to the last man" fanaticism again and again throughout the Pacific campaign and were actually training women and children in the area where the invasion was expected to come to engage in what were effectively low-tech kamikaze attacks. Shit was fucked up.

Truth. As horrible as they were they actually saved lives over the alternative.

 

[KHarvey16]

No justification. It was an atrocity, a war crime if you will. Those who gave the order should have been arrested and imprisoned. Japan was surrendering, it wasn't if, they were but, we wanted to impress the Soviets. Horrific.

This represents the typically ignorant view of history so many have. The Japanese were not about to surrender, and we know this for a fact given the communications we intercepted from them at the time. Their plan was to prolong the war as long as possible and force an allied invasion. Until that happened, they were not going to give in. The emperor himself had to step in to end it, and when he did there was a coup attempt to kill him for it.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Can we not drag the just locked thread in here

 

[antonz]

Interesting read on some recently found documents etc. of Japan's march towards the Atom Bomb in WWII. There is always a lot of talk of Hitlers desire for the Bomb but the Japanese had 2 programs going to develop the bomb. One with the Navy and one with the Army.

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-japan-bomb-20150805-story.html#page=1

 

[KHarvey16]

Can we not drag the just locked thread in here

We aren't ranking atrocities here.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

No justification. It was an atrocity, a war crime if you will. Those who gave the order should have been arrested and imprisoned. Japan was surrendering, it wasn't if, they were but, we wanted to impress the Soviets. Horrific.

This is utterly disconnected from reality. Allied intelligence indicated that the Japanese were training their civilians for low-tech kamikaze-like combat, anticipating a landfall of American troops. They had attempted to court the Soviet Union to convince America to negotiate a peace that was favorable to the Japanese and would allow the militaristic and Imperial infrastructure to stay in power, but America balked at this because their very war aims lay in utterly dismantling the militarism that had made Japan such a threat to global security in the first place. The Japanese had no path to victory, but they had demonstrated, on island after island, a willingness to let FAR more of their people die prior to surrendering than any other nation in the war, and the high end of estimates for the cost of the invasion of Japan, which was GOING to happen with or without the bomb as far as allied commanders were concerned, was upwards of a million military and civilian deaths. The bombs were an attempt to avoid that.

There was actually a post by a Gaffer in the thread about Nanking in which he shared a short blog post by a noted historian who utterly dismantles the claim that Japan was on the path to an acceptable surrender prior to the atomic bombings. There simply is no evidence in the record left by the men at the pinnacle of Imperial Japan's regime that they were even considering a surrender prior to the one-two punch of the atomic bombings and the declaration of war by the Soviets.

 

[black_13]

I was just reading about the Kyūjō incident the other day. How there almost was a military coup detat by some military officials who saw Japans surrender as disgraceful and tried to stop the radio transmission. Who knows, if that had happened there might have been another bomb dropped.

 

[Savitar]

Going to repost what I said in the other thread:

Everything I've seen or read does suggest the nuclear bombs did make Japan surrender, they were truly willing to fight to the very last. They were training school children, even girls to fight near the very end. The military aspect of the Japanese wanted to go down with their honor, anything less was unacceptable. The first bomb definitely shocked them but they didn't believe the allies had another. The second one was what finally pushed enough to say, okay we got to do or we're just going to be vaporized where is the pride and honor in that. Even then they had to do everything in secret since many would have sabotaged any attempt at surrender. And some tried to make sure it wouldn't happen.

Dropping the bomb was no doubt a horrible heinous act, one that should never be repeated. But I got no doubt if they had not been used and it had been fought as normal the amount of people and pure destruction would have been worse. Talking about mass suicides and everything.

The horrors men do. And the horrors they're sometimes forced to do.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

We aren't ranking atrocities here.

It's turning into the same content minus the ratings.

But do what you want

 

[pa22word]

No justification. It was an atrocity, a war crime if you will. Those who gave the order should have been arrested and imprisoned. Japan was surrendering, it wasn't if, they were but, we wanted to impress the Soviets. Horrific.

On August 7, a day after Hiroshima was destroyed, Dr. Yoshio Nishina and other atomic physicists arrived at the city, and carefully examined the damage. They then went back to Tokyo and told the cabinet that Hiroshima was indeed destroyed by an atomic bomb. Admiral Soemu Toyoda, the Chief of the Naval General Staff, estimated that no more than one or two additional bombs could be readied, so they decided to endure the remaining attacks, acknowledging "there would be more destruction but the war would go on."[164] American Magic codebreakers intercepted the cabinet's messages.[165]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Events_of_August_7.E2.80.939

 

[Kabouter]

Interesting read on some recently found documents etc. of Japan's march towards the Atom Bomb in WWII. There is always a lot of talk of Hitlers desire for the Bomb but the Japanese had 2 programs going to develop the bomb. One with the Navy and one with the Army.

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-japan-bomb-20150805-story.html#page=1

I think it's safe to say, every major nation had a desire for the bomb in the war. I think it's even safer to say none even came close to possessing the resources needed to develop it other than the United States, whilst still engaging in a massive conventional war at the same time.

We aren't ranking atrocities here.

Exactly, keep it that way and keep discussion limited to the nuclear bombings and the background thereof and we're fine. As long as no one starts ranking things, I have no intention of locking.

 

[Ludovico]

Some friends and I went to the WWII museum in New Orleans a few weeks ago, during which we got to see Beyond all Boundaries.

The way the bomb was presented was heavy, and that segment really stayed with me throughout the next few days. Pray the world never sees the use of such a weapon again.