Seems like it is wrong to want things now, huh? Even if I my expectations were lower (Or null) I would still be disappointed by the cheap cop-out of this game. Just lame.
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SPOILER: Spoiler Metal Gear Solid V (TPS) Spoiler Thread (Contains Spoilers, Thanos).
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Seems like it is wrong to want things now, huh? Even if I my expectations were lower (Or null) I would still be disappointed by the cheap cop-out of this game. Just lame.
I've always been in Team Solid Snake. I knew Kojima would ruin Big Boss sooner or later. And it finally happened.
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
I'm a lot more calm now, since I originally had a very knee-jerk reaction.
However, I still don't like it. At all.
That's pretty much it..
Damn, thats pretty much exactly what I was going to post. Its like this game doesn't contribute anything at all to the overall franchise other than what you have there in that image.
Like someone else mentioned in this thread, I would've liked it expanded upon why Big Boss becomes a truly evil villain and NEEDS to be destroyed by Solid Snake because he's such a fucking evil ass evil Darth Vader evil man.
But no, the most evil thing he does is make a body double, and that body double is kinda "evil". Why does Big Boss need to be destroyed at the end of MG2? Because he's upset his phantom guy got killed in MG1? But he sent "himself" SS clone to do it in the first place.
I'm not getting it.
edit: I agree with Ishida. See, when he doesn't talk about MGS4 he can be a reasonable guy! xD Perhaps part of the problem is that we know what happens after the twist. And it doesn't change that much, it only takes away something from the legend of BB. At this point, was the double necessary? Plot wise no, for the sake of the game itself yes, absolutely. Therefore, the obvious question: is it worth it?
Nope, you don't get it. The value of the product, MGSV alone, is high. I'll enjoy it.
The changes in the story are a fact that I don't like now and I will not like tomorrow.
All the Big Boss myth, what the others characters do and say in his name. People who mention him, the story of MG1 and BB trying to stop Snake via codec. there's a lot that make less sense now because the picture we had of BB is now different and weaker.
It's not about emotions, who am I, David Cage? It's not about enjoyment either, I can enjoy to be played like a fiddle. What I don't like is a man overwriting what he did in the past years.
I express myself with the english I know and I'm replying pretty quickly. My choice of words probably is not the best but I need to deliver the message somehow. I mean no disrespect, ever.
To repeat the concept: when you try to explain supernatural with science, something you cannot do, you'll inevitably fall in bad writing and ridiculous explanations. It's better to simply believe in the supernatural (or fantasy tech, for example), especially when it has always been a constant in this universe and people learned to accept and apreciate. Now, to introduce new supernatural things and explain them in the same game is something I don't like much but it's ok. But to explain supernatural things of the past, that's worse. I loved the Cobra unit for what they were, why would you want to change that?
To please everyone is indeed impossible. Tip of the day: if something is not broken, don't fix it.
Nope, I want things to go the way they already did.
This is where we disagree and I'm hoping you can understand how important it is: I really care about the existing canon. Let me repeat again that canon or not doesn't prevent me from enjoying the game. Let's say it's a matter of principle. There's the gamer and then the almost-30 years MGS fan, I'd like both to be satisfied with everytime. MGS3 did it very well. didn't it? Everything made perfect sense!
It wouldn't be that hard with MGSV, either. Random example (it's silly, but just to get the idea): Venom finds out about his true identity, he tries to tear his skin from the face with no result and then he hears gunfire and explosions from outside. Player takes control (this is important, because it's about interactivity and bond between player and Venom now), he gets out and see something similar to another player's invasion but impossible to counter. Too many enemies and they're all too good, who are they? You see all your men die, screaming for your help, the buildings blow up and at the end, the real Big Boss with Miller and Ocelot on his side come after you. You can see the logo on their uniform, "Outer Heaven", and... *insert speech here* bang, you're dead. Big Boss has destroyed your Mother Base as SF destroyed his. Miller is speechless, he looks at Big Boss covered in blood, silent but pleased. You've been used and you did good, but there's only room for ONE Boss and that's the man you feared, Big Boss.
He repeats this for all the other players, like saying that there can be only one nation of soldiers. He takes the child of your base to bring them in Outer Heaven, just to use them against the next player. "Feed the War", remember? He's now a criminal and a terrorist for real.
Just saying, there's still a lot that I don't like of this fake ending but it's better than having 2 Big Bosses, one in OH and the other in ZL. Better than having Ocelot hypnotize himself to forget about the real Big Boss, better than retcon MG1. To be fair, you don't even need BB face to begin with, but you would be able to see the atrocity that the real Big Boss is capable of through the eyes of an avatar.
You sure?
Aye, I agree a lot but.. you know what I'm going to say, right? I'm very open to this stuff as I'm very interested to see how this medium can differentiate itself from the others. I'm not very open to retcons, but you've established that. Keep it in mind because it's all about this, nothing else. I remember I even mentioned MGS3 ending as the very prime example of what can be achieved with game.
I played enough games to know when something works out, at least trust me on this. The empty avatar doesn't work with me, even less when he thinks to be someone else, even less when the final twist has little to no consequences (yes, OH, but the other was doing ZL..) and even less when I've this terrible doubt that he's not BB since the first trailers.
Said that, all you say is very correct, I love it: interaction is the key to link a player and the character and can be used for more powerful communication with the players. But the things I mentioned are necessary as well (using gameplay, I'm against cutscenes). We wouldn't care about Ellie if she didn't stick with us all the time, very close, while reading bad jokes from a book. We wouldn't be linked to Naked Snake if we didn't take care of him in the jungle, but at the same time we couldn't understand his feelings if it wasn't for cutscenes and codec conversations.
Simply because the character arc is not there. There's point A and B and they jump straight from one to another. People die in the process and a ? materializes over my head every time while a question keeps echoing in my head: who the fuck is that, why should I care and why Lara is crying.
Doesn't matter, Venom and Fox are both person that lost something. But I knew Fox, not that much, but enough for me to care. When he told Snake about Naomi, I could feel his sorrows. I could share his need to fight Snake and when he died, I was there with Snake. I wanted Liquid dead.
In MGSV, I don't want BB dead.. I wouldn't shake his hand either. He.. I pity him, it's such a terrible sentiment toward this legend. :\
I can be sorry for Venom too, more or less, but.. if only I knew him before and I knew what was taken from him, it would be better. He was no one to me and he's no one - with BB face - now. Is it enough for the twist to have an impact? Raiden was no one, forced to be someone else, but at the end he decided to create his own future.. now, that works.
I understand what you say with "play the game first" but the premise is not there for me. It's more about the game itself playing you rather than BB himself, because he accepts you (and eventually he'll send Snake to kill you I guess..).
Oh, I see. Don't reply then, I'm not worth your time.
Nah
Even I probably won't have the same opinion. And that's a good sign. Means we've matured and have different, wiser perspectives.
Nope, you don't get it. The value of the product, MGSV alone, is high. I'll enjoy it.
The changes in the story are a fact that I don't like now and I will not like tomorrow.
All the Big Boss myth, what the others characters do and say in his name. People who mention him, the story of MG1 and BB trying to stop Snake via codec. there's a lot that make less sense now because the picture we had of BB is now different and weaker.
It's not about emotions, who am I, David Cage? It's not about enjoyment either, I can enjoy to be played like a fiddle. What I don't like is a man overwriting what he did in the past years.
I express myself with the english I know and I'm replying pretty quickly. My choice of words probably is not the best but I need to deliver the message somehow. I mean no disrespect, ever.
To repeat the concept: when you try to explain supernatural with science, something you cannot do, you'll inevitably fall in bad writing and ridiculous explanations. It's better to simply believe in the supernatural (or fantasy tech, for example), especially when it has always been a constant in this universe and people learned to accept and apreciate. Now, to introduce new supernatural things and explain them in the same game is something I don't like much but it's ok. But to explain supernatural things of the past, that's worse. I loved the Cobra unit for what they were, why would you want to change that?
To please everyone is indeed impossible. Tip of the day: if something is not broken, don't fix it.
Nope, I want things to go the way they already did.
This is where we disagree and I'm hoping you can understand how important it is: I really care about the existing canon. Let me repeat again that canon or not doesn't prevent me from enjoying the game. Let's say it's a matter of principle. There's the gamer and then the almost-30 years MGS fan, I'd like both to be satisfied with everytime. MGS3 did it very well. didn't it? Everything made perfect sense!
It wouldn't be that hard with MGSV, either. Random example (it's silly, but just to get the idea): Venom finds out about his true identity, he tries to tear his skin from the face with no result and then he hears gunfire and explosions from outside. Player takes control (this is important, because it's about interactivity and bond between player and Venom now), he gets out and see something similar to another player's invasion but impossible to counter. Too many enemies and they're all too good, who are they? You see all your men die, screaming for your help, the buildings blow up and at the end, the real Big Boss with Miller and Ocelot on his side come after you. You can see the logo on their uniform, "Outer Heaven", and... *insert speech here* bang, you're dead. Big Boss has destroyed your Mother Base as SF destroyed his. Miller is speechless, he looks at Big Boss covered in blood, silent but pleased. You've been used and you did good, but there's only room for ONE Boss and that's the man you feared, Big Boss.
He repeats this for all the other players, like saying that there can be only one nation of soldiers. He takes the child of your base to bring them in Outer Heaven, just to use them against the next player. "Feed the War", remember? He's now a criminal and a terrorist for real.
Just saying, there's still a lot that I don't like of this fake ending but it's better than having 2 Big Bosses, one in OH and the other in ZL. Better than having Ocelot hypnotize himself to forget about the real Big Boss, better than retcon MG1. To be fair, you don't even need BB face to begin with, but you would be able to see the atrocity that the real Big Boss is capable of through the eyes of an avatar.
You sure?
Aye, I agree a lot but.. you know what I'm going to say, right? I'm very open to this stuff as I'm very interested to see how this medium can differentiate itself from the others. I'm not very open to retcons, but you've established that. Keep it in mind because it's all about this, nothing else. I remember I even mentioned MGS3 ending as the very prime example of what can be achieved with game.
I played enough games to know when something works out, at least trust me on this. The empty avatar doesn't work with me, even less when he thinks to be someone else, even less when the final twist has little to no consequences (yes, OH, but the other was doing ZL..) and even less when I've this terrible doubt that he's not BB since the first trailers.
Said that, all you say is very correct, I love it: interaction is the key to link a player and the character and can be used for more powerful communication with the players. But the things I mentioned are necessary as well (using gameplay, I'm against cutscenes). We wouldn't care about Ellie if she didn't stick with us all the time, very close, while reading bad jokes from a book. We wouldn't be linked to Naked Snake if we didn't take care of him in the jungle, but at the same time we couldn't understand his feelings if it wasn't for cutscenes and codec conversations.
Simply because the character arc is not there. There's point A and B and they jump straight from one to another. People die in the process and a ? materializes over my head every time while a question keeps echoing in my head: who the fuck is that, why should I care and why Lara is crying.
Doesn't matter, Venom and Fox are both person that lost something. But I knew Fox, not that much, but enough for me to care. When he told Snake about Naomi, I could feel his sorrows. I could share his need to fight Snake and when he died, I was there with Snake. I wanted Liquid dead.
In MGSV, I don't want BB dead.. I wouldn't shake his hand either. He.. I pity him, it's such a terrible sentiment toward this legend. :\
I can be sorry for Venom too, more or less, but.. if only I knew him before and I knew what was taken from him, it would be better. He was no one to me and he's no one - with BB face - now. Is it enough for the twist to have an impact? Raiden was no one, forced to be someone else, but at the end he decided to create his own future.. now, that works.
I understand what you say with "play the game first" but the premise is not there for me. It's more about the game itself playing you rather than BB himself, because he accepts you (and eventually he'll send Snake to kill you I guess..).
Oh, I see. Don't reply then, I'm not worth your time.
So nobody mentioned to Solid Snake et al that the Big Boss he killed in Outer Heaven was just a doppleganger? Instead, dozens of characters go on (for decades) thinking that there was only one Big Boss, when clearly there must have been two at various points? Like Big Boss of Foxhound ordered Snake to go kill a different Big Boss and SS never thought anything of it?
The twist is so silly. And this franchise IS silly, but that doesn't justify adding more silliness on top of it. I can see what they were going for, but you don't fuck up the entire understanding of the series like this on your way out, in a little epilogue.
The twist is so silly. And this franchise IS silly, but that doesn't justify adding more silliness on top of it. I can see what they were going for, but you don't fuck up the entire understanding of the series like this on your way out, in a little epilogue.
Hayter at this point would sound really annoying if he had to do a serious monologue with the voice direction of PW.
Do people really want Big Boss to remain a hero? He is a scumbag villain who is in the same ranks as any of the patriots for following some sort of twisted logic and trying to fulfill the wish of their basically religious idol of the Boss. They've all gone mad ,Big Boss included.
Konami will definitely want a continuation and that is going to happen no matter how much we hate it, they're not gonna pass on such an opportunity.
Do people really want Big Boss to remain a hero? He is a scumbag villain who is in the same ranks as any of the patriots for following some sort of twisted logic and trying to fulfill the wish of their basically religious idol of the Boss. They've all gone mad ,Big Boss included.
Konami will definitely want a continuation and that is going to happen no matter how much we hate it, they're not gonna pass on such an opportunity.
It wouldn't be the first time in this series that somebody has seemingly survived a fatal encounter, would it?
It's a dangerous move to touch on anything that was written for MG1 and MG2, though. He can't have known the grandiose plans he had in mind for the Solid games and I'm sure he just wrote whatever for the small MSX games he was commissioned to make.
entremet
Member
I think the fans cared more about the series mythos than Kojima at this point.
He's obviously a great developer and this game reviewing high shows that, but he seems out of ideas with the established narrative.
SomedayTheFire
Member
Team Solid always and forever.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Like I said on the previous page, it's MG2 that is fuzzy now. Otherwise it works: BB draws the Venom out of himself to create a phantom that will carry on what would have otherwise ruined him, especially since it seemed to be Skull Face's goal to drive BB mad. So he shields himself from becoming a demon by splitting himself from his evil side. He eventually even sends his "son", the one person who would risk following him in the direction he once took, to kill this "evil" phantom of himself, effectively redempting himself in a sort of ritual and at the same time passing on his "meme" to Solid Snake (that of being against evil BB/Venom).
I think it all works out beautifully, but not if you consider what happens in MG2 if that is the real BB, and even less if MGS4 is canon.
If you consider that MG2 and MGS4 don't exist it all works out nicely, we just wouldn't know how BB is killed.
Hence why it feels like something still doesn't make sense and that would be MG2. If what O say above is true, why would he be evil in MG2?
I think it all works out beautifully, but not if you consider what happens in MG2 if that is the real BB, and even less if MGS4 is canon.
If you consider that MG2 and MGS4 don't exist it all works out nicely, we just wouldn't know how BB is killed.
Hence why it feels like something still doesn't make sense and that would be MG2. If what O say above is true, why would he be evil in MG2?
The fact that BB came back twice isn't what I'm referring to. That's already ingrained in the MG plot for years and was silly
It's that NOBODY picked up on it being two people or acknowledged it for 7 games until the very end of the last one that reeks of the worst kind of retconning.
But this is the deal. If you need to start disregarding canon entries in the series, mainline entries, for a plot to make sense, then what's the point of canon?
Hmm, about the possible time skip interpretations, if I rewatch the scene assuming there's a time skip, to me it flows like: Listens to the tape for the first time, realizes the truth, and when he appears again, way more "evil" and smirks, it's almost as if he's listening to it again quite some tame later, when shit's hitting the fan, and the smirk is a "fuck you, BIg Boss" smirk, and Big Boss is turning his back on him at the end. They indeed are one, Venom's actions will be part of the Big Boss legacy forever, but "my friend" he is not.
If you don't think a time skip happened, and his different look is just like his face changing on the mirror and supposed to be interpreted as a metaphor, then yeah, the smirk is him accepting his role and deciding to become one with the legend.
If you don't think a time skip happened, and his different look is just like his face changing on the mirror and supposed to be interpreted as a metaphor, then yeah, the smirk is him accepting his role and deciding to become one with the legend.
No, and avoid this thread.
rhophiehalul78
Member
Guys, do you think Kojima only thought of this story and plot during MGS5 development or is this the story he envisions years before?
Pythonselkan was right all belong :3
What is that "Master Certificate(Standard)" thing on the screenshot?
Something you get for a Ground Zeros save? If so, how does he already have it, aren't the konami servers still offline?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
If you do you can just restart the mission and do it non-lethally.
I think it's obvious that Kojima has been making the story up as he goes along. But some hardcore fans will argue in favor of the latter.
Thanks nowhere else to ask. Don't worry, I managed to avoid the comments.
THOSE fuckers couldn't replicate the amazing technology that is being shown of here, like shit son this metal gear could wreck shit. This shit is sillier than you give it credit for.
The twist that there was a phantom big boss, fits right in there with anything else in Metal Gear like Big Boss sending Snake to kill 'him'. It's all retrofitting and has been done the entire series. Memes, AIs, doppelgangers, i really don't see what is missing to me. Unless people are waaaaaaay too much in love with the Big Boss legend and are feeling hurt that their idol didn't turn out to be all the way badass then i can't feel sympathy for you hating on this.
Also does the third end actually exist?
He makes stuff as he goes. He didn't have any of this planned beforehand.
I can see both sides to this. Either he's as much of a demon for allowing that to happen to cover his own ass, or he's a golden boy for not only not becoming a demon himself, but also for taking the burden of Venom's actions on his shoulders.
Either way he's an asshole.
The Silver
Member
I'll always keep saying not to take anything from MG1/2 as strict canon beyond what's confirmed in the Solid games. That being Big Boss(and now Venom) created their own military nations and Solid Snake stopped them. Along the way he beats Gray Fox and he learns that BB is his daddy.
The details in between are all up iin the air.
The details in between are all up iin the air.
You're right. But the difference is, you're using that as an excuse and handwaiving ADDITIONAL bullshit as "that's the way it always was!" and I'm saying I'm not going to let them get off that easy. I always thought that other stuff was dumb as well and I have called it out on it then, it's just that this shit has reached the breaking point.
"Everything in MGS is stupid" doesn't mean that there aren't degrees of stupid, or that by calling out one thing in particular means I've forgotten every other stupid thing. And it certainly isn't an excuse for doing more stupid shit.
It's pretty clear he completely makes up the story from scratch with each game. Sometimes it works out brilliantly (MGS3), other times....
He always was when you realize that Solid Snake is the real heir of The Boss starting with MGS2. He just doesn't know it. Among all the Snakes, he's the one fighting to "leave the world as it is".
Things that I have to complain about after 16 hours:
- I cannot stand Snake not talking
- I do not like this mature no griddy voice, doesn't feel like Metal Gear
- Game has so much micromanagement, which can be annoying
- Feels different...
- Miller is such an asshole
Plus:
- I hated cassests and things like these, but I really like listening to the tapes here (maybe because you can finally hear Snake talk a bit more?)
- Quiet is way better than expected
- Open world works nicely, but is there any way to get faster to the destinations other than taking the chopper or going by horse/vehicle?
- I cannot stand Snake not talking
- I do not like this mature no griddy voice, doesn't feel like Metal Gear
- Game has so much micromanagement, which can be annoying
- Feels different...
- Miller is such an asshole
Plus:
- I hated cassests and things like these, but I really like listening to the tapes here (maybe because you can finally hear Snake talk a bit more?)
- Quiet is way better than expected
- Open world works nicely, but is there any way to get faster to the destinations other than taking the chopper or going by horse/vehicle?
Now i can't really know what everyones own personal breaking point is, i don't see how this could be worse than Big Boss appearing in the end of MGS4, and so on and so forth.
It's complicated and seems like a mess from the perspective of people spoiling themselves and most playing the game i think. I am not that final in my statements because i haven't listened to every goddamn cassette yet, or experienced everything on my fucking own yet.
I don't feel like the part of the audience that feels betrayed or humiliated by this for your information. The fun i have with the series by the sheer craftsmanship of the game besides the story is not taken away by this since i will probably spend more time playing the game than arguing about it.
Cardboard Box fast travel.
funkystudent
Member
What if the MSX tape is a mod for MG1 that changes the script such that the body double makes some kind of sense in the over all canon.
So does Big Boss head off to america now and lead foxhound and Venom is the one who is off doing Outer Heaven? Thats the only way it would work if Venom goes a little bit crazy and starts the Outer Heaven Uprising and BB has to put him down. But that doesnt explain why Big Boss vanishes after MG1 and starts Zanzibarland....
This game is a trainwreck if you expected some kind of finality to the Metal Gear saga. Kojima leaves it with a giant unexplainable reton that will never be fulfilled.
And we are never getting a remake of the first 2 games to work this stuff in. I think if Konami tries to keep the franchise going as a AAA thing (which I still wouldn't bet on) they would go a completely new direction with the story and world. Like Ac!d but still a action game.
So does Big Boss head off to america now and lead foxhound and Venom is the one who is off doing Outer Heaven? Thats the only way it would work if Venom goes a little bit crazy and starts the Outer Heaven Uprising and BB has to put him down. But that doesnt explain why Big Boss vanishes after MG1 and starts Zanzibarland....
This game is a trainwreck if you expected some kind of finality to the Metal Gear saga. Kojima leaves it with a giant unexplainable reton that will never be fulfilled.
And we are never getting a remake of the first 2 games to work this stuff in. I think if Konami tries to keep the franchise going as a AAA thing (which I still wouldn't bet on) they would go a completely new direction with the story and world. Like Ac!d but still a action game.
What? How? In the old games it was way easier, but here are so few vehicles to hide myself into...
Hands of Stone
Member
It was never made clear who exactly killed Miller. TPP finally confirmed it was Ocelot.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
You can get sticker from the various outposts and use them on your cardboard box and get transported by the postal service.
(I don't have the game yet so I don't know how exactly it works, but thats how they explained it on the GC gameplay trailer and Greg Millers Lets Play) But didn't they explain it ingame?
The game isn't over. Keep playing. Finish up Chapter 2.
Ohh wow. I really try to read through everything and take it slow, but it could be that I missed that... lol Thanks will look into that
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
So, do we know if the burned model of Venom appeared somewhere yet?
Spainkiller
the man who sold the world
I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.
My (much repeated, but never refuted) point is that the disappointment if not having gotten what you wanted is making you knee-jurkingly judge the ending extremely negatively, despite not even having played the game. To the point even that you'll post a simplified picture that ignores every other implication that the twist makes.
Which part of "you can't be 100% sure of how you'll feel about something a decade from now due to the simple fact that you constantly change as a human being and will form different tastes and opinions constantly" don't you understand? You can't claim what you're claiming, not even about your wife let alone a mere video game.
Also, and I can't fucking believe I have to reiterate this, but: YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED THE GAME YET. You haven't established a connection with your avatar and you haven't felt the reveal through that same bond, among many elements that factor into your emotional and intellectual response about the twist.
You're so angry disappointed about not being to play with your waifu Big Boss that you're flat-out guaranteeing someone on the internet whom you've never met, that you'll be FOREVER disappointed about this big reveal. You know, despite events like MGS2 and the reevaluation by the fan base years later, proving how such things change.
You're still reacting emotionally to such a huge extent that you're making promises you can't even keep. It's very pathetic.
A lot has changed, but it still all makes sense, just in a different context. Don't say things that are blatantly not true.
Well, you definitely seem to put as much thought in your posts as Cage does in his storylines, so yeah, who knows?
In all seriousness: it's also about emotions. And it's also about enjoyment. It's about all of these things. And you haven't experienced a lot of these things because you spend your weekend watching someone else play it and then read about it on a forum.
There is nothing wrong with retconning stuff. The act of retconning itself is neutral.
AGAIN: what you don't like is WHAT has been retconned, which is surprisingly little. A lot of new context has been added, but bar the mythos of Big Boss, most elements have stayed the same.
You don't have to reply quickly. Feel free to take your time. I rather wait a day for a reply that has been worded properly than one that has been jumbled together rapidly.
In the end, all I can work off of, are your words, not your intentions.
The first bold bit is bullshit in the very definition of both the supernatural and empirical science (in the end, "magic is just advanced science we haven't explained yet") plus Kojima did a pretty decent job giving semi-scientific explanations to supernatural phenomena. If you look at our history, people made up gods simply because they couldn't explain shit yet.
The latter bold bit is just an assumption/opinion, and I hate it when people pass that up as facts. Kojima might not be the best writer, but don't you dare even suggest for one second that it's straight-up impossible to write scifi like that (supernatural explained emperically) properly.
It isn't. Not necessarily. Stop acting like your opinion is how the series should've been done.
You keep proving my point: that you're butthurt because Kojima didn't take the series in the direction you wanted it to. You're also proving that your emotional response is clouding any form of trying to understand what Kojima did instead, as you have now proven again and again.
Like I've said time and time ago: I know you do. For some strange reason, you care about a tight canon more than you do about concepts like subversion.
It's not a matter of principle. Mainly because no one forced that principle on you except yourself.
You literally said earlier that you understand how bad it is to try to please everyone.
It's a good thing that Kojima didn't try to cater to the very specific fan who gets a massive boner if a dozen games that weren't even meant to be made as a series somehow flow perfectly narratively. Again: consistent canon is not a goal, it's a means to an end. Kojima knows this.
MGS3 was a copout in that regard as Kojima abandoned the Solid Snake saga to start a completely new storyline. He didn't have to fit that game in between other games; he could almost do whatever the fuck he wanted.
TPP doesn't have the luxury.
I can't believe you can't see that and are honestly trying to use Snake Eater as an example of "how to do it properly". If anything, TPP does a better job of fitting in relatively well into the canon AND doing such a twist, considering how tight it had to fit into the exact middle of the series.
Get out.
Oh, don't you dare. Don't you dare criticize the twist for being, amongst one thing, silly, only to then try to show us how it's supposed to be done with the disclaimer that it's, indeed, silly.
If it's so easily done (spoiler alert: it isn't) your "example" would not have been "silly".
Your example is much worse than Kojima's effort, because: 1) it'd make Big Boss cartoonishly evil, instead of humanly evil, and nothing in the games has hinted at him being such a cunt that he'd kill his double in such a cold manner, 2) it doesn't destroy the Big Boss mythos like the reveal does, and thusly says very little about how legends are made or thought of, and 3) one of the interesting things about Kojima's reveal is how it makes us look at MG1 and 2 completely differently, without having to go back and change those games. Your example doesn't have anything nearly as interesting as that. Your example just turns a beloved character into a 2D killer, right after revealing that he used a double.
There's no grace in it, whereas Big Boss' gratitude in Kojima's twist means that he acknowledges his own weakness.
It really isn't.
Except that ties into Guns of the Patriots, so it actually works on more levels.
It's not a retcon. It doesn't change MG1. You can play MG1 and everything will be the same, you just know more now. The context has changed, but it has not been retconned.
You sure?
Very much so.
So what you're saying is you're open to change, unless something has to change that you don't want to have changed (like retcons)?
That's not how being open about something works. It's like saying "I'm not a racist! I love every race!" and then saying "... except Jews, of course" the moment tries to introduce you to a Jewish friend.
Logical fallacy.
The amount of video games you have played says nothing about the validity of your arguments.
Very true.
But you've essentially agreed with what I said about how gameplay/interaction is the most important of all those things, right?
Because in that case you've just proven that you can't judge the twist properly seeing as how you HAVEN'T INTERACTED WITH THE GAME YET. You only saw the cutscenes.
Wait, what the fuck? Have you read nothing I just said?
It DOES matter! You just admitted yourself that gameplay is the most important element in creating a bond between you and your interactive avatar, and now you're trying to tell me that it doesn't matter that Gray Fox isn't playable?
OF COURSE it is! He's not even the avatar; it's a completely different kind of connection! He's not playable; he's a side character, FFS.
What premise are you referring to?
No, it's also about the game playing you. It does that whilst giving you crucial information on BB's character.
It's quite smart.
Oh, I see. Don't reply then, I'm not worth your time.
You really aren't.
But I do somehow hope that you (and others that might read this) might exit this discussion a wiser man.
Ether_Snake
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So, do we know if the burned model of Venom appeared somewhere yet?
Not until MG2!
Hands of Stone
Member
Was there any more back story given to Skull Face other than he somehow "assisted" Big Boss on certain missions?
Why exactly was he angry at them?
Why exactly was he angry at them?
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Ir until MG1 is patched in!
- Status