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[meanspartan]

Story can be added in later. It's much easier to work with a clean palette than to mold an existing piece of work.

Ya but you might want to add it in before the game launches....

 

[VinFTW]

You can legitimately buy insurance in MGS v

I'm talking about what happened with the game blatantly missing content and suspicions of development hell, again, with a high profile game developer leaving on bad terms.

 

[Kor of Memory]

So? People are the same way over mgsv without anything super concrete.

What's different here? I have my suspicions.

What does that have to do with anything? This isn't the MGSV thread. I've never even been in the MGSV thread.

Why does someone acting like a antagonist in the MGSV thread mean it's okay for you to act like an antagonist here?

Ya but you might want to add it in before the game launches....

Well of course, in ideal situations. Obviously they had some critical changes and choices to make along the road. They used their last 6 months to fine tune the game-play and let the story remain bare bones.

Considering the gameplay is probably what has saved the game from being a total failure, I'd say they bet on the right horse in this specific situation.

 

[The End]

I'm much happier with High Moon assisting on Destiny 2 that being consigned to CoD map pack purgatory forever.

 

[Lord Phol]

Interesting read, not sure it bodes well for Destiny 2 and the future though. Seems to be alot of core problems in the management and their engines. Also sounds like I always suspected is true, they really have no clue on what they want the game to be.

 

[Einchy]

Dreadnaught spaceship, which was later cut from vanilla Destiny and moved to The Taken King. Originally, this Hive ship would have been part of the main story. “The entire last third of the game took place on the Dreadnaught with you rescuing Rasputin,” said one person who worked on the game.

So, pretty much everything that I and others have said about cut content being cut from vanilla so it could be released for the DLC was correct?

Not done with the story but it seems like everything that people thought was happening actually was happening.

They probably still have Saturn and Chicago in their backpocket waiting for year 3.

 

[Haruko]

It's honestly the best MT model I can think of... To me, it's better than the GTAV MT model... it's better than the Halo 5 MT model... It's better than the Last of US PvP MT model... it's much better than the Ass Creed MT model... all of those are NOT cosmetic only... I expect Destiny to have cosmetic only MTs and maybe later it will have quick level booster MTs... and in exchange we get free DLC. I'm OK with that. It's similar to the Guild Wars 2 model.

It's the direction the industry is going with large budget titles unfortunately. If you play big budget games these days then most of them have MTs sadly...

Well, there is the fact that for Halo 5 (like Mass Effect 3), the MTs make the DLC map packs/content free. That's a pretty big bonus. GTAO would be included as well; all of that DLC content was free. I hesitate to call Destiny's method "better" than those, but I'm not against cosmetic MTs.

 

[NullPointer]

Once Destiny launched in September 2014, Bungie’s staff didn’t have much time to celebrate. Over the next few months, the developers had to grind constantly.

This bit earned a sensible chuckle.

What a fucking mess of chopped up bits for premium prices.

But just about all of this lines up with internet theorycraft and pastebin-driven detective work. Still, its great to see Kotaku putting out a singular version of events.

Interesting read, not sure it bodes well for Destiny 2 and the future though. Seems to be alot of core problems in the management and their engines.

Yeah, whats the expectation now for the next content drop? Will it even be up to Dark Below standards? Or a longer wait for something larger? Honestly have no idea where they go from here, but that keeps it interesting.

 

[VinFTW]

What does that have to do with anything? This isn't the MGSV thread. I've never even been in the MGSV thread.

Why does someone acting like a antagonist in the MGSV thread mean it's okay for you to act like an antagonist here?

Holy hell dude you missed the point completely.If you can't even TRY to see my point of view then give it a rest and move on. I'm done responding to you.

It should NOT bother you this much people have caution with bungie and destiny now.

 

[Omega]

I had to stop reading when I read "For the past 13 months, I’ve been investigating the answers to those questions".

Video game journalism, holy shit.

that's usually how these stories are found out.

or do you think this randomly gets brought up during lunch?

 

[Hari Seldon]

As a brand new player to destiny, buying Taken King on a whim and not really following anything about this game, I do find it very addicting and a lot of fun. However unlocking story text and having to leave the game to read it is about the worst design decision I have ever heard of in video games. I cant' believe they haven't at least patched in a way to read these damn things as you unlock them.

 

[Alienous]

Sounds like Bungie just fucked it up.

Like, how is "Here's the story, hope you like it" a thing 6 months before release?

How is "Nah, we'll scrap it" an option?

What a clusterfuck.

Activision leave this looking like the good guys. They really put their trust in Bungie.

 

[BokehKing]

You guys misunderstood what I was saying.

The way it's inplemented right now? Perfect. Keep it that way.

Those non cosmetic data mined files were bungles ideas, THATS what I'm upset about. That they would even think of doing that and it was all their idea alone.


if they could get away with it, they would.

Everybody was saying it was activision, but it was bungie all along.

Makes more sense what you're saying now

 

[Alienous]

that's usually how these stories are found out.

or do you think this randomly gets brought up during lunch?

I meant the investigative gaming journalism part. Putting the time in over a year to build a picture of what happened. It's cool to see in the context of gaming.

 

[ViciousDS]

that original story with a Qui-Gon character on mercury sounds fucking awesome.......also holy shit at the dreadnaught being in the original game and then just removed.....that means the dreadnaught was basically done? I'm guessing they had it designed already and everything for the most part for this year?

This is kind of sad to read what the story still could have been.....because Rasputin still isn't really much at all



so does this mean the next expansion will be their first legit original content and not cut? If so......wow its going to be interesting in the next year for this game.

 

[Cleve]

Oh man I'm just digging in, but they felt the supercut was too campy and linear, so they shipped with what exactly?

 

[WhateverItTakes]

Man, what a fuckup. Good thing they had the marketing power and their own rep at the time to get them the sales they needed. Their loyal playerbase will help them but I'm not really sure if they deserve them

 

[PAULINK]

I love all these behind the scenes details even if I don't play the game in question.

 

[Kor of Memory]

So, pretty much everything that I and others have said about cut content being cut from vanilla so it could be released for the DLC was correct?

Not done with the story but it seems like everything that people thought was happening actually was happening.

They probably still have Saturn and Chicago in their backpocket waiting for year 3.

The problem with your argument is you assume this content is 100% done and finished, and just needs to be patched into the existing game.

You, and people with the same argument, don't seem to realize that things get cut at different times and places.

Dreadnaught could have been cut at like 75%. Maybe Europa was 15%. Maybe Mercury was 25%.

Either way, the content is not done. It was not finished and then cut out to sell back to us later.

 

[GlamFM]

Back to what? The game I want to play is the one I just read about, and the game I liked playing in spite of that disappeared with The Taken King. If it takes Bungie 8 hours to move a patrol beacon, then it'll take them 8 weeks to fix half of the problems I have with the game.

It would take 8 weeks to put the last word back where it once was?

 

[Alienous]

Oh man I'm just digging in, but they felt the supercut was too campy and linear, so they shipped with what exactly?

The bare minimum they could muster to connect the levels they had already created. They scrapped the original story, kept the universe and re-purposed character models.

 

[GillianSeed79]

I love how they gutted the story but still continued to market it as a cinematic story-driven game. They didn't even bother to edit out story mentions on the back of the box.

 

[NullPointer]

Blizzard is so powerful they fixed Destiny just by giving a talk lol.

They still have a ways to go to measure up to Reaper of Souls in terms of system changes and longevity. You have so much freedom in Diablo now compared to the initial release, and zero barriers between players who want to co-op, no matter their level, and no restriction on what to play in terms of viability in the loot hunt. Destiny is still shackled to old school MMO content gating, but that probably keeps players engaged and more likely to buy into the DLC.

Maybe if the expensive DLC packs aren't in the plans anymore, they could start loosening their grip a bit over the slow, daily drip-feed of missions that provide rewards.

 

[Alucrid]

So, pretty much everything that I and others have said about cut content being cut from vanilla so it could be released for the DLC was correct?

Not done with the story but it seems like everything that people thought was happening actually was happening.

They probably still have Saturn and Chicago in their backpocket waiting for year 3.

No, it sounds like they repurposed old concepts for dlc. I mean, considering the development the game went though do you really think they were creating content to stick in their backpocket months down the road? Especially when you consider how much of the content seemed to be designed in regards to many of the criticisms the game had.

 

[VendettaRed07]

I remember a lot of people saying Bungie purposefully cut out content from the original just to resell it later. But honestly after learning about how insane their development tools are, holy shit, how do they get anything done? They must struggle to put anything in the game at all. I highly doubt they held anything back on purpose if the process of moving a barrel takes 2 fucking days

 

[Einchy]

The problem with your argument is you assume this content is 100% done and finished, and just needs to be patched into the existing game.

You, and people with the same argument, don't seem to realize that things get cut at different times and places.

Dreadnaught could have been cut at like 75%. Maybe Europa was 15%. Maybe Mercury was 25%.

Either way, the content is not done. It was not finished and then cut out to sell back to us later.

I never said it was 100 percent done because at some point they realized they couldn't delivery all the content they promised so they trimmed what vanilla actually was into what it would be.

We now know Vanilla Destiny would have had, if everything went according to plan, 4-5 more locations than it actually shipped with.

Bungie royally fucked up.

 

[KingJ2002]

Well... the sad thing about reading that article is that the story pieces up to this point was originally supposed to be in the vanilla version of destiny. It make me feel a tad bit ripped off.

but when you consider all the gameplay tweaks and changes that came over with these expansion packs. I can say that the intended vanilla version might have sucked and the current taken king really redeemed this franchise internally and for the players.

Even with all these revelations I believe Destiny 2 is worth waiting for... there's still the european dead zone, osiris, the stranger, charlemagne ai and many other elements left out that could be reintroduced.

It's quite possible that the stranger still works for osiris... who has now distanced himself from the traveler (which would makes sense as to why the trials of osiris is in the reef and not in the tower).

Then there's the cabal army that has a base on mars.

and maybe... just maybe... they'll introduce a character who speaks russian and can translate what the war mind is saying.

either way... good article. looking forward to Destiny 2

 

[Patryn]

I still don't quite understand how the studio heads could not understand they were making a fairly linear game a year out from the (then) release date.

 

[Twilight Gap]

It would take 8 weeks to put the last word back where it once was?

This joke is now an automatic trip to my ignore list. I've listed two dozen problems I have with the game and can probably double that list before I even mention one gun. Drop it.

 

[Kor of Memory]

I never said it was 100 percent done because at some point they realized they couldn't delivery all the content they promised so they trimmed what vanilla actually was into what it would be.

We now know Vanilla Destiny would have had, if everything went according to plan, 4-5 more locations than it actually shipped with.

Bungie royally fucked up.

Well, your original point was that Bungie cut content from Vanilla with the purpose of selling it back to us later.

Versus, Bungie cut content from Vanilla with the purpose of shipping as complete a game as they could. While using unfinished assets later for DLC/Sequels.

I still don't quite understand how the studio heads could not understand they were making a fairly linear game a year out from the (then) release date.

It's not hard to imagine. What if one of your older veterans has an idea and has been pushing it from the beginning. You begin to see flaws in his ideas, but when you bring it to attention, you get promises of fixes, or dismissal. Eventually, enough time passes that you find yourself in a situation that is near impossible to climb out of. A writer that doesn't want to budge, and will probably quit when you tell him his work isn't working, or risk the entire studio on a piece of work that has shown to have issues.

Note: I'm not saying this is what happened. I'm just saying it's pretty easy to picture a situation where Bungie had to do what they did.

 

[Branniganz Love]

I guess it's nice to have confirmation of all this, reading the article just made me feel burned all over again. Destiny was such a disappointing experience for me. No offense to anyone who plays and enjoys the game still, as far as gameplay goes there is still so much to love. I just feel pissed off because what we were charged for and what we got was just so far out of line especially when it comes to the first two expansions, The Dark Below is especially shocking. To learn that all of these troubles were self inflicted due to poor management and over ambition topped by technical hurdles because of the engine... for me personally any amount of goodwill and trust in Bungie as a developer is gone.

I think that the reason this game is still alive after the development hell it's been through is mainly due to three factors: 1. Strong shooting and combat mechanics 2. The quest for awesome loot keeps people coming back for more 3. Bungie's name and previous goodwill. Can you imagine a relatively unknown or new studio surviving this? It would have been a disaster of epic proportions.

 

[John Kowalski]

What a mess.

 

[Zaph]

Another great piece by Jason, it's a shame he's almost in a league of his own. 6 sources is impressive, but that really gives the impression of an unhappy team wanting the world to know what happened.

The engine tooling sounds insane and practically impossible to work on. Anyone know how those import/opening times compare to the tools in similarly large AAA titles?

 

[RowdyReverb]

Geez, it sounds like they been in permanent crunch mode since 2013. That sucks.

 

[Garlador]

I'll eat crow on this.

I was ready and waiting to blame Activision for so many of Destiny's problems. I mean, it's Bungie! BUNGIE! They earned their sterling reputation over a decade of quality, gamer-friendly games and development choices. It HAD to be the Call of Duty publisher who ruined things, right?

... And, nope, sounds like Bungie imploded from within and Activision was actually doing their best to salvage the situation, grant them extensions, and push back against some of their less-savory ideas.

I really don't know what to think of this. I feel like up is down, cats and dogs are living together, and one of my hero devs was unmasked as isn't quite as awesome as I spent my youth thinking they were.

Another great piece by Jason, it's a shame he's almost in a league of his own. 6 sources is impressive, but that really gives the impression of an unhappy team wanting the world to know what happened.

The engine tooling sounds insane and practically impossible to work on. Anyone know how those import/opening times compare to the tools in similarly large AAA titles?

Everyone optimizes differently. I work with Unreal Engine 4 (not with any studio, just on my own for now), and entire, large levels can be loaded, edited, and played within 30 minutes. Changes are made lightning quick.

Eight and a half hours to do a split-second change is like giving Michelangelo a box of crayons to paint the Sistine chapel. Their tools are grossly inadequate for the job at hand.

 

[qa_engineer]

I still don't quite understand how the studio heads could not understand they were making a fairly linear game a year out from the (then) release date.

While there are processes and procedures on how to develop and release a video game, shit does happen and things do fall through the cracks. But yeah sort of hard to believe with a major developer like Bungie.

Edit: I guess we owe Activision an apology, or at least the benefit of the doubt next time one of their AAA blockbuster new IPs doesn't deliver on day 1

 

[Cleve]

Oh man, the dreadnought was cut from vanilla too? I like Destiny now but they're going to be in for a lot of work when they actually have to develop all new assets again and not just half done ones stripped from the game.

It sounds like their tech tools are awful and completely unacceptable.

“Let’s say a designer wants to go in and move a resource node two inches,” said one person familiar with the engine. “They go into the editor. First they have to load their map overnight. It takes eight hours to input their map overnight. They get [into the office] in the morning. If their importer didn’t fail, they open the map. It takes about 20 minutes to open. They go in and they move that node two feet. And then they’d do a 15-20 minute compile. Just to do a half-second change.”

That's fucking insane. Why on earth is their tech so difficult to work with?

 

[Einchy]

Well, your original point was that Bungie cut content from Vanilla with the purpose of selling it back to us later.

It served both purposes.

They bite off more than they could chew and couldn't actually complete their original vision for the game in the time that they had and whatever they didn't finish they could put off and finish it later as DLC.

It's insane to think that things that are still coming out a year later and probably for the next year were things that were supposed to be there from day one.

 

[ViciousDS]

I'll eat crow on this.

I was ready and waiting to blame Activision for so many of Destiny's problems. I mean, it's Bungie! BUNGIE! They earned their sterling reputation over a decade of quality, gamer-friendly games and development choices. It HAD to be the Call of Duty publisher who ruined things, right?

... And, nope, sounds like Bungie imploded from within and Activision was actually doing their best to salvage the situation, grant them extensions, and push back against some of their less-savory ideas.

I really don't know what to think of this. I feel like up is down, cats and dogs are living together, and one of my hero devs was unmasked as isn't quite as awesome as I spent my youth thinking they were.

That's how I feel as well


I honestly thought Activision was pulling strings here and nope.....shits been Bungie all along...........fuck, this makes me thing of Bungie really different. Sounds they also need to use a whole new set of tools for the sequel or just buckle down and go for UE4 like everyone else is doing.

 

[Kathian]

Two years in and the leads have no idea what the story is? I mean I agree less linear is actually good for the type of game they were going for but the whole thing seems poorly managed.

Wonder if MS actually was the glue and worked with those teams on individual bases?

 

[Kor of Memory]

It served both purposes.

They bite off more than they could chew and couldn't actually complete their original vision for the game in the time that they had and whatever they didn't finish they could put off and finish it later as DLC.

It's insane to think that things that are still coming out a year later and probably for the next year were things that were supposed to be there from day one.

What if I told you everything in Halo 3 was originally designed to be in Halo 2? Was cut, and then resold to us a few years later as a full priced game?

 

[OneUh8]

One of the best and most interesting pieces of games journalism I have read. Great work Jason!

 

[zabuni]

Blizzard is so powerful they fixed Destiny just by giving a talk lol.

I once said that Blizzard needs to give classes in how to make MMO-like random loot games. Not because they always do the right things, but because they have probably done every boneheaded move on the way to the right thing. They probably have a giant book of "Things not to do".

 

[NastyBook]

Meanwhile at Bungie and Activision:

The fact that there's a DualShock in this gif makes it even more hilarious.

Also, SMH @ Bungie.

 

[Jarmel]

Sounds like Bungie just fucked it up.

Like, how is "Here's the story, hope you like it" a thing 6 months before release?

How is "Nah, we'll scrap it" an option?

What a clusterfuck.

Activision leave this looking like the good guys. They really put their trust in Bungie.

It's mind blowing how incompetent Bungie has to be for this to repeatedly happen.

 

[Einchy]

What if I told you everything in Halo 3 was originally designed to be in Halo 2? Was cut, and then resold to us a few years later as a full priced game?

Oh and Halo 3's levels were shown before Halo 2 came out and some were actually found gated off?

I'm fully aware of what happened with Halo 2 and it's not even remotely similar to the cluster fuck that's Destiny.

 

[KingdomHeartsFan]

Yea this really shows when you see the quality of the game.

 

[Bold One]

I'll eat crow on this.

I was ready and waiting to blame Activision for so many of Destiny's problems. I mean, it's Bungie! BUNGIE! They earned their sterling reputation over a decade of quality, gamer-friendly games and development choices. It HAD to be the Call of Duty publisher who ruined things, right?

... And, nope, sounds like Bungie imploded from within and Activision was actually doing their best to salvage the situation, grant them extensions, and push back against some of their less-savory ideas.

I really don't know what to think of this. I feel like up is down, cats and dogs are living together, and one of my hero devs was unmasked as isn't quite as awesome as I spent my youth thinking they were.


.

is there space on this table for 2?

 

[nOoblet16]

Bungie's code is incredibly messy and it has always been from what I remember.

This is the reason a simple change takes ages to implement and it has always been the case, now we have further confirmation on this.

 

[Troy]

is there space on this table for 2?

When you have evidence that Activision was guilty of causing any of the fuckups, please post it.