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[Muppet of a Man]

I just recently finished MGSV, and I know there has been much contention about the story/ending. I want to know why because I think that Kojima has been planning this since the events of MGS2 unfolded. In fact, MGSV is for Big Boss the thematic analog of what MGS2 is for Solid Snake (Ground Zeros for Big Boss = Solid Snake's Tanker Mission & The Phantom Pain for Venom Snake = Raiden's Big Shell Mission), and because of that and the global theme of the sins of the father being repeated by the son (i.e., history bound to repeat itself), it had to be the way it was. He also gave us tons of hints with the early twin phantoms rising from the ashes Ground Zeros posters and David Bowie's The Man Who Sold The World (as in the lie of his identity).

So, when thinking about the story in this way, was it any surprise the way it unfolded?

 

[Platy]

Because you have mechas, clones, psychics, robot ninjas, people who do photosyntesys, vampires, ghost arms that are not ghost arms, weird parasites that works like nanomachines and ... nanomachines.

This is why it is stupid and this is why it is surprising since it could have gone ANYWHERE

 

[Broken Joystick]

I think that Kojima has been planning this since the events of MGS2 unfolded.

 

[RK9039]

I don't think Kojima plans anything.

 

[ponpo]

I think it's a surprise because the Venom Snake shit is mostly not needed. While there wouldn't have been an epic tweeeeessstt at the end, if people just got what they were expected (i.e. the "downfall" of Big Boss and creation of OH) I think they would have been more pleased.

I don't find it particularly stupid but I think it's unnecessary and surprising for the sake of being surprising.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I think that Kojima has been planning this since the events of MGS2 unfolded.

pssh




He's been planning it since MG1, son!

 

[Bananastand]

I think it is surprisingly stupid in a lovable Kojima kind of way.

 

[Banana Aeon]

There was no surprise. There was suppose to be some grand twist, but it was just handled extremely poorly.

From the twist being so blatantly apparent, to the motives of the characters being stripped away, to the loose ends that punctuated the bloated second chapter of the game, to the pointless operations that add nothing to the narrative, to the retcon which adds nothing and only creates more questions.

The game is a complete mess of a narrative.

 

[bluethree]

I just recently finished MGSV, and I know there has been much contention about the story/ending. I want to know why because I think that Kojima has been planning this since the events of MGS2 unfolded. In fact, MGSV is for Big Boss the thematic analog of what MGS2 is for Solid Snake (Ground Zeros for Big Boss = Solid Snake's Tanker Mission & The Phantom Pain for Venom Snake = Raiden's Big Shell Mission), and because of that and the global theme of the sins of the father being repeated by the son (i.e., history bound to repeat itself), it had to be the way it was. He also gave us tons of hints with the early twin phantoms rising from the ashes Ground Zeros posters and David Bowie's The Man Who Sold The World (as in the lie of his identity).

So, when thinking about the story in this way, was it any surprise the way it unfolded?

Snake's portrayal in MGS2 works because he's still a major character in the game even though he's not the playable character. You can also clearly see his development from MGS1, and he comes across as a great older, more confident mentor figure to Raiden. You literally don't know about the twist in MGSV until the last minute and it has no real effect on anything.

 

[bob page]

It is stupid and not in a good way.

 

[MechaX]

I don't think Kojima plans anything.

Yeah, there is absolutely no fucking way he planned this even after Peace Walker, let alone MGS2.

 

[GoldandBlue]

I think that Kojima has been planning this since the events of MGS2 unfolded.

In interviews Kojima said MGS2 was meant to be his last MG, I doubt he had anything planned for the future of the series.

 

[Strangelove77]

It's not the event as much as it's the execution. It was done pretty badly.

 

[NotLiquid]

The twist isn't surprising at all. It's been painfully unsubtle ever since the game's initial reveal, the entire opening, and people who actually "get" the entire point of The Man Who Sold The World and what that song was meant to mean would probably be even less surprised.

The problem is the game doesn't actually build up to it properly. It's given an hour in the beginning to set up implications, drops some tiny little easter eggs and pads it's running time for most of the story until it's exhausted it's ideas. MGS2 actually built up to it's grand reveal from the start and replaying the game you start to realize how it all makes sense.

I would have been okay with the game if it actually felt like telling a story and build up to an ending, but MGSV doesn't really end. It just stops.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

I understand why the story on a micro level is considered a mess with loose ends everywhere, but in the grander scheme of the series major themes, it totally makes sense. In fact, there are generational analogs in terms of passing memes/ideologies of the super soldier: apprenticeship/propaganda, hypnotic suggestion plus shared experiences, virtualized simulation, and nanomachines enhancing natural abilities.

 

[Robot Pants]

It's stupid. Forgettable and laughably stupid.

 

[sn00zer]

It was just really really bad. Felt incredibly unfinished, none of the characters had any personality, and literally the most interesting character in the game had their legs cut out from under them with fanservice. It was made more noticeable by playing a few hours of Until Dawn soon after and was more interested in the blight of dumb teenagers than the epic conclusion of a decade of games.


Stil gameplay-wise probably the best playing game ever. Really could have been the best game ever if the story was halfway decent and the characters were more than "Very Mad Guy", "Exposition Guy", "It Wasnt My Fault" Guy, "Guy Who Looks Stern".

 

[WrenchNinja]

It was only surprising in how stupid it is.

 

[wolfhowwl]

Seeing complaints about bad writing in MGS is a little baffling.

It's Kojima, you knew it was a snake when you picked it up, right?

 

[JayEH]

I hated everything about the story for a month or so after the game came out. I've come to like it now. I like the Venom twist. The game is a big thank you to fans, you are now Big Boss and have an amazing stealth simulator to go with it. You also get to see Big Boss' downfall at the same time since you are the direct product of his moral decline. It wasn't the Anakin story everyone (me included) wanted but instead a more subtle way to show a man who gives no fucks for others around him. Venom has to take the fall for Big Boss in the same way The Boss did for the US government. I was initially shocked about the twist just because I kept telling myself there was no way fan theories were right. That moment in mission 46 where it it says Starring: Big Boss...then later Punished "Venom" Snake is something I wont' forget.

The game does have major issues though with pacing and the cut content but I enjoy what's there. The execution was off but I liked the ideas the story was going for and I like the meta ending. I don't think Kojima has planned this from years ago though lol. That's just crazy talk.

 

[internetwolf]

it's just very boring imo, and has zero MGS charm

 

[Prime crotch]

It's very consistent with the series themes, explicitly since MGS2.
A fitting ending for Big Boss.

 

[NotLiquid]

I understand why the story on a micro level is considered a mess with loose ends everywhere, but in the grander scheme of the series major themes, it totally makes sense. In fact, there are generational analogs in terms of passing memes/ideologies of the super soldier: apprenticeship/propaganda, hypnotic suggestion plus shared experiences, virtualized simulation, and nanomachines enhancing natural abilities.

It adhering to a theme doesn't mean it's necessarily executed well or consistently, especially considering MGSV actively contradicts many of it's own series' past themes. MGS2 ends with Raiden abolishing the player "projecting" onto him and deciding his actions while MGSV ends in the exact opposite way, with the player now "being" Big Boss. Not that it's a commendation that I'm even happy about considering Big Boss is still a villain and he admits in MGS4 that Solid Snake was the better person.

I get that the ending was Kojima's way of saying "thank you" to the player and I'm usually a complete sucker for stuff like that but it's really poorly executed in tandem with the story and the series' past. Kojima doesn't think these things through, he mostly wings it and writes games around whatever he's feeling like at the time.

 

[Banana Aeon]

It's very consistent with the series themes, explicitly since MGS2.
A fitting ending for Big Boss.

How is it consistent with MGS2 when it tells the exact opposite message that MGS2 tells?

 

[RK9039]

Yeah, there is absolutely no fucking way he planned this even after Peace Walker, let alone MGS2.

Yup, plus he said in an interview that he sees each game as it's own thing and because of that sometimes there will be inconsistencies.

 

[Foffy]

It feels more Resident Evil than Metal Gear.

That means it's stupid, by the way.

 

[Prime crotch]

How is it consistent with MGS2 when it tells the exact opposite message that MGS2 tells?

Venom is a memetic Big Boss. Him not rejecting those memes is just a tragic ending.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I miss solid snake. Too bad we won't get to play him again probably.

 

[Punished_Snake]

A lot of people hated the story because they were mad that they played the game as Venom and not Big Boss. The phantom pain is real.

Edit: Also a lot of fans created an imaginary story for the game in their mind before playing it expecting Gray Fox and Sniper Wolf to appear in the game. They were expecting Big Boss to kill children because trailers and forgot that Kojima is the master in misleading trailers. .

 

[massoluk]

From what I read about the game, it kinda ruined the entire "Let's build the perfect soldier from Big Boss gene" premise of the series, when you can just brainwash some random dude into perfect Big Boss.

 

[Prime crotch]

From what I read about the game, it kinda ruined the entire "Let's build the perfect soldier from Big Boss gene" premise of the series, when you can just brainwash some random dude into perfect Big Boss.

They never did, that's the thing, Solid was the faulty clone.

 

[Deckard Chapel]

There was no surprise. There was suppose to be some grand twist, but it was just handled extremely poorly.

From the twist being so blatantly apparent, to the motives of the characters being stripped away, to the loose ends that punctuated the bloated second chapter of the game, to the pointless operations that add nothing to the narrative, to the retcon which adds nothing and only creates more questions.

The game is a complete mess of a narrative.

The game is just a complete mess.


MGSV is more shit than substance.

 

[A.Romero]

I love and respect Kojima a lot. MGS2 to me is a master piece and in my opinion is one of the deepest games there are (thematically speaking).

That said, MGSV felt totally pointless. Gameplay wise is very good but the history did nothing for the MGS universe. It is very sad because:

- There is an army of people believing that all this is a part of a huge ruse and eventually Kojima will come out and say that he never left Konami and that there is a way to unlock the third chapter (it even makes me believe for a second some times)

- Kojima will probably never have a chance to work on MGS again. Whoever gets to direct the next game will either do something totally different or try to emulate Kojima and most likely fail.


On topic: the history doesn't make sense, doesn't add anything and the game in general is just a disjointed set of scenarios.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

My major gripe with the game is that most of the missions are filler. So many of them are just you going to do work for a random client.

In MGS5 you could go long stretches before you hit anything that has something to do with the central story due to all that filler.

I don't remember that in the ones I played (didn't play Peace Walker), it was all a continuous narrative IIRC.

 

[Nessus]

I find it weird anyone found the twist surprising.

I recognized Kiefer Sutherland's voice immediately as the other patient with the bandaged face in the very first Phantom Pain reveal trailer back in 2012. As soon as they announced he'd be playing Snake it was obvious there was something going on.

 

[Inumbris]

I feel like it was a combination of:

- Obvious cut content (a lack of conclusion for the theft of Sahelanthropous and its inexplicable technological advantages over the TX-55).
- The way that the ending revelation was shoe-horned into the game after completing enough side-ops.
- The expectation that we would get a greater insight into Big Boss' character leading up to the events of the original Metal Gear games, which was essentially bypassed by the twist.

The way that almost all of the characters were handled throughout the game also really bugged me:

- Ocelot's personality reduced to a generic right-hand man with a weird penchant for botany (also, I can't believe that he hypnotises himself twice in this series).
- Everything about Huey's character was grating to me, and the way that they handled the death of Strangelove seemed way too cold and calculating to match his bumbling persona.
- Kaz was the most well handled of the core characters, but even he had a very monotone personality throughout the game with his obsession over revenge. They could have done more with his character progression, but I feel everyone just talked him down and conflict never really came to a point. Also I felt like it would have made more sense if Ocelot and Kaz had swapped personalities.
- All of the other characters like Quiet, Code Talker, and Eli felt way too shallow. I felt that especially Eli had great potential to be fleshed out and give us an insight into how Liquid was shaped.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

It's not the event as much as it's the execution. It was done pretty badly.

Yes.

V Snake = Great concept. The whole body double thing could make for a fantastic narrative about identity and what it means to be a legend, where the divide lies between the man and the hero, the illusion of living a life that isn't yours. But none of that was touched upon, ever, and the twist was tacked on at the end instead of given proper time to settle in with players and be built upon.

Also, whoever said "let's give him a super high profile voice actor and make him almost mute" is really, really misguided

 

[Banana Aeon]

My major gripe with the game is that most of the missions are filler. So many of them are just you going to do work for a random client.

In MGS5 you could go long stretches before you hit anything that has something to do with the central story due to all that filler.

I don't remember that in the ones I played (didn't play Peace Walker), it was all a continuous narrative IIRC.

Well, that's why. MGSV is pretty much PW: Next Gen, and it shows.

 

[akira28]

Also, whoever said "let's give him a super high profile voice actor and make him almost mute" is really, really misguided

every time they gave Sutherland another line, Konami exects Fultoned off a KojimaPro team member into the atmosphere, never to be seen again.

 

[KOMANI]

It's surprising how stupid it is

 

[antitrop]

I can't believe how little actually happened in the cutscenes. It felt like they were there for the sake of being there, most of the time.
Then I got to the truck ride with Skull Face and then the WHOOOO, and I just couldn't.

The worst thing about the story is the pacing. It's one of the worst paced stories I've ever seen in a game, I played for like 40 hours and nothing happened, then a TON OF shit all happens at the same time right at the end of Chapter 1. Never seen anything like it.

Didn't even bother with Chapter 2, can't do it.

 

[Lingitiz]

I can't believe how little actually happened in the cutscenes. It felt like they were there for the sake of being there, most of the time.

Then I got to the truck ride with Skull Face and then the WHOOOO, and I just couldn't.

Yeah not only are the cutscenes super sparse, but the ones that are there are so irrelevant and pointless that they might not exist at all. All the trips back to base and checking in on Huey for whatever damn reason, or just other pointless motherbase shit didn't even need to exist. The cutscenes rarely ever advance the plot and then all of sudden you reach the final confrontation with Skullface and it's hard to even care.

The biggest crime this game did is fucking up Sins of the Father. How do you have a song that good and not even use it well?

 

[antitrop]

Yeah not only are the cutscenes super sparse, but the ones that are there are so irrelevant and pointless that they might not exist at all. All the trips back to base and checking in on Huey for whatever damn reason, or just other pointless motherbase shit didn't even need to exist. The cutscenes rarely ever advance the plot and then all of sudden you reach the final confrontation with Skullface and it's hard to even care.

The biggest crime this game did is fucking up Sins of the Father. How do you have a song that good and not even use it well?

If there's anything that you can say about the cutscenes of MGS1-4, it's that shit actually happens. Lots of shit, maybe even too much shit, but at least shit happens.

Sometimes it's literally shit, if Johnny Sasaki is around.

 

[KOMANI]

The game is just a complete mess.


MGSV is more shit than substance.

Shitsistence?

 

[eso76]

I don't think Kojima plans anything.

This.

I think he's pretty skilled in using the gaps he accidentally left and branch the story in tortuous ways from there, though.

When Snake meets big boss at the end of mgs4, they never mention the events of OP. Intrude 313. and only acknowledge what happened in Zanzibar land.
I'm sure Kojima later thought this was an incredibly lucky circumstance that gave him the opportunity to write in an entire new arch, and this is how venom Snake was born.

Still, I have to respect him for walking the minefield of MGS already convoluted lore and adding in new stories that still fit, somewhat.
All these years he has had to write stories within an increasingly intricate maze, with so little room for manoeuvre its amazing he still managed to stay on the path without contradicting any major point established in the prequels.

Women breathing through photosynthesis and language-activated parasites aside, I think he at least tried to tell a message that hasn't been in videogames before.
Language being a large part of one's identity certainly isn't a common theme and while the whole thing sounds pretentious and he probably wasn't really able to get his point across, I still appreciate that he tried, and that he still can't refrain from using his games to offer his perspective on a multitude of pertinent or completely unrelated matters.
Like hamburgers.

 

[Nibel]

Planned?

This felt like something he had to come up very quick after the fact that Konami wanted to have this game out this year and seemingly cut the budget. Everything about this screams "unfinished".

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Venom is a memetic Big Boss. Him not rejecting those memes is just a tragic ending.

This is exactly how it is the prequel analog to MGS2, in the same way that Raiden's is a memetic Solid Snake.

 

[Lingitiz]

If there's anything that you can say about the cutscenes of MGS1-4, it's that shit actually happens. Lots of shit, maybe even too much shit, but at least shit happens.

Sometimes it's literally shit, if Johnny Sasaki is around.

That's the biggest problem for me. MGSV did not feel like I had started one place and been somewhere totally different by the end of it. I remember being excited prior to release to learn all of the secrets that have been so obscure in trailers over the past few years. Only to realize that there is little story to the game and most of the major events can be summarized quickly. Not to mention most scenes had already been given away by trailers.

As flawed as the other games are, they felt like grand stories with development for characters and an narrative arc. In the case of MGS4 it was too much story, too much shit going on, but it still left satisfied, even if many of the narrative choices were dumb as hell. With MGSV there's nothing really to be mad about, love, or even feel any emotion for. I left that story feeling indifferent, to the point where I watched the final repeat mission on YouTube.

 

[Yabberwocky]

My vote is for Team Stupid, much to my misery.

 

[RetrospectiveLamb]

The story was the most disappointing aspect to the game. I had much more fun just parachuting all my goats and enemies then ever caring about the story