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[The Victorian]

Space Invaders involves blasting alien ships out of the sky. Mario stomps on Goombas and hurls fireballs at his enemies. Pac-Man turns the tables on the ghosts and devours them. The vast majority of games involve some form of violence, even if its in a cartoonish and innocuous fashion. Sex, on the other hand, isn't traditionally a gameplay element outside of pornographic video games, which are an extremely small segment of the market.

It's a bit disheartening to see people sneering at others for being "uptight" about sex. What is considered scandalous in one culture is normal in another. Some of us aren't comfortable with brazen sexuality and don't want to see it in the media we consume (when I come across a sex scene in a novel, I usually skip over it), and it becomes tiresome to get labelled a "prude" time and again, as if that were somehow a bad thing.

I'm reminded of that all joke about how anyone who drives faster than you is a maniac and anyone who drives slower than you is a moron. In this case, anyone who is more reserved about nudity is a prude, anyone who is less reserved about nudity is a pervert.

 

[Obliterator]

I wouldn't even say that. It could be much better. Make no mistakes it is getting better, but it could still be more. The new ME will apparently have a buxom blonde woman as a companion for instance.

Oh I agree it could be better. We still need more strong female leads, hell thats something that's really awesome looking about Horizon coming up . Strong lead female protags. We need more. That said one sexy looking girl in a game really shouldn't be a big deal. There are buxom sexy blonde women in real life. As long as ME has a nice range of women types , personality, etc. then having one hot blonde really shouldn't be a big deal.

Now if they are all drop dead gorgeous busty girls that would be something quite a bit different.

 

[twobear]

Care to expand on this? I think about sex all the time but never about killing my sister. Am I supposed to?

Well that really just adds an extra layer of problem to the notion of 'basic instinct', it doesn't do anything to exonerate cheap titilation in its name.

 

[Death Penalty]

I don't really see the issue with sex in games, either. It seems to stem from the idea that sex, sexuality and nudity are somehow sacred when often sex has a lot in common with videogames. Usually, you have sex because you want to feel good and there isn't much more to it. Sorta like playing a videogame, it's just a hedonistic act with the main point being pleasure. Unlike violence, it's also an expected behavior of healthy adults and yet we can't handle the topic like we are adults.

 

[SomTervo]

Somewhat agree with you, other than that sex doesn't always need to be "contextualized". Something like DOA, the entire point is the sex. That is the context. Its the POINT of the game. Why is that a bad thing? Its not, its staring at virtual breasts, big deal.

1. You're not entirely wrong in this reading, but one potential issue is that it still highly objectifies the women involved - eg absurdly large breasts, often unrealistic or size-zero'ey figures, all 'perfect' etc - and they have no personalities. But it's basically soft-core porn, and that is the point of it, so this argument doesn't go far.

2. The bigger reason games like DOA are criticised is that there's no equivalent to staring at virtual dicks, biceps, thighs or 'hot guys'. There is only the female-ogling variant. The whole media panders to one gender/sexuality.

That's a different topic, though.

 

[Sianos]

I would say the distillation of my grievances with the portrayal of sexual content is this: open, straightforward and healthy sexual behavior is tabooed, while the mundane is overtly oversexualized out of context. This models unhealthy behavior, such as the belief that sex is a reward you are entitled to for doing good things, that women do not straightforwardly express their sexuality and therefore a no is a yes that needs justifying, or that the only way to obtain sexual gratification is through inappropriate subversive action in non-sexual everyday situations. Additionally, I think that men are usually sexualized holistically while women are usually sexualized piece-wise and distilled down to single parts: which is to say objectified, and unacceptable.

 

[Obliterator]

2. The bigger reason games like DOA are criticised is that there's no equivalent to staring at virtual dicks, biceps, thighs or 'hot guys'. There is only the female-ogling variant. The whole media panders to one gender/sexuality.

That's a different topic, though.

I agree with this one for sure. It is clear that gaming panders only to male titillation and there is very little options for women who would want something similar.

 

[Novocaine]

Well that really just adds an extra layer of problem to the notion of 'basic instinct', it doesn't do anything to exonerate cheap titilation in its name.

Thinking about sex all the time makes sense though in terms of base instincts and what has kept us alive as a species. It being super fun is a side effect.

Killing family members sounds totally counter intuitive to that notion though.

 

[Paracelsus]

You're talking about sex when most major titles (if not most games period) can't have female enemies with all the baggage that comes with it, without expecing some sort of major backlash, regardless of whether it's Nathan Drake of Lara Croft to kill them. Let alone stuff like

 

[SomTervo]

The origin of the cultural values is immaterial considering the distance that separates the origin from their current incarnation. Where they came from is at best an interesting historical note at this point. Who their current biggest proponents are is much more germane to the current conversation. Which would be why I ended my post with

"In short, while its origins may have been British its now enshrined in American moral values. So yes, its "an American thing".

America is by far the biggest bastion of puritanism extant in the western world today. Similarly, I honestly laughed when I read "Where did the most historically recent giant empire come from, which enforced its culture on nations around the world (inc. bringing it to America)" Superpower's are the modern day equivalent to empire's and the most "historically recent", in that it currently exists and maintains dominance, is the US. Similarly the US has been, for literally decades, dominating media in the west (and arguably globally) thanks to its rampant and unabashed cultural imperialism (an extension of its role as the globe's dominant superpower). Honestly pointing at the origins of these societal trends from a century ago and trying to argue that because they originated elsewhere they arent now "an American thing" seems either purposefully obtuse or stupidly naive. Possibly both.

Bear in mind I said 'historically recent'. Of course America is the biggey today, rapidly being caught up by China and the BIRC group more generally - but yes America is the current bastion. I said 'historically recent' because, barring Russia, Britain was the biggest empire in recent history (not present day).

However, this is all besides the point. The point is that it's well documented that Victorian Britain (eg 1820s+, not "one hundred years ago") printed countless books and pamphlets about keeping sex and nudity under wraps (which came from their Puritan beliefs) and these were spread about (by word and paper) in America as well as Britain. A lot of the key phrases are still bandied about today, almost verbatim, including about how girls should be 'chaste' or committed, and should take care of their men - 1:1 comes from Victorian literature. When you read the stuff, it's terrifying how clearly it has been adopted in UK and US cultures (the same doesn't go for all of Europe). I studied this at university, should be able to find some examples.

 

[Sianos]

I agree with this one for sure. It is clear that gaming panders only to male titillation and there is very little options for women who would want something similar.

The difference is that hot guys are usually portrayed holistically and their sexual appeal is derived from their entirety: from body language, to overall muscularture as opposed to a single body part, to personality. Whereas the stereotypical portrayal of the hot girl is way more reductionistically focused on specific parts as the source of sexual appeal.

 

[Famassu]

I mean here's the thing, if women want a game the equivalent of DOA for them, then start calling out for it. Make the voice heard.

Listen, random sex in major mainstream games is ridiculous. Games that aim to be broad, should be all inclusive. They should try to avoid random acts of sexualization that could quite easily turn off or offend the female demo.

That said, you barely hear a single thing about Mortal Kombat or say God of War. The level of violence and gore in these games boarders on the absolute extreme and yet no one bats a single eye. And yet this is somehow fine, when a side boob isn't? I'm agreeing that we should avoid blatant pandering in major games but if you are going to bash that, is it fair to say extreme violence is fine? I don't think so personally, it seems like quite the double standard.

Basically sexy games are fine, when the game is designed for it. And leave the rando sexy out of broad demo games.

I think the problem that a very small number of people (and it is a small number of people, most people just don't give a shit, even people who want better representation of women in games) have with DOAX is that it is DOA themed game. If it was just some random Sexy Babe Extreme Volleyball game, I doubt it would draw even the small amount of criticism it does currently. But it takes characters from a (once?) popular fighting game series where these women are kicking some serious ass with the characters not being JUST eye-candy (though of course somewhat objectified) and puts those kinds of characters in a game where they are nothing BUT sex objects.

It would be the same even in some scenario where no nudity was involved. Say Nintendo took Zelda and finally gave her a game of her own, but that game is Style Savvy: Zelda Edition. At that point people would have more of a legitimate reason to complain, when finally we get a Zelda game and it's about girls & clothing instead of being a proper adventure game. But when Style Savvy is an IP of its own, no one really gives a shit that Nintendo releases such a stereotypical "hey girls, we have a girly game for you" kind of game in a time when at least a part of society is trying to move away from such stereotypical gender roles/activities. Much in the same way, there are a portion of people who feel that a game like DOAX cheapens the DOA characters into something less than what they were in the fighting games, even if some level of objectification has always been in DOA's genes.

 

[twobear]

Thinking about sex all the time makes sense though in terms of base instincts and what has kept us alive as a species. It being super fun is a side effect.

Killing family members sounds totally counter intuitive to that notion though.

Not really. In some traditional cultures, for instance, they kill elderly members of a family during food shortages or when they're moving the settlement.

Also, lots of animals kill their siblings, and sometimes parents kill or even eat their young.

But again, how does any of this bear on the 'it's a natural instinct, therefore it's okay for DOAX to be cheap titilation and for quiet to be constantly writhing around and showing the player her cleavage'. That's a non sequitur if ever I've heard one.

 

[LPride]

I wouldn't even say that. It could be much better. Make no mistakes it is getting better, this e3 was very eye opening for the future state of the gaming industry, but it could still be more. The new ME will apparently have a buxom blonde woman as a companion for instance, there's Cindy in FFXV, Nier 2's protagonist was introduced with a panty shot. Etc etc.

What is wrong with Cidney aside from wearing a low cut shirt? Something that many blonde haired women I know do regularly.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Oh I agree it could be better. We still need more strong female leads, hell thats something that's really awesome looking about Horizon coming up . Strong lead female protags. We need more. That said one sexy looking girl in a game really shouldn't be a big deal. There are buxom sexy blonde women in real life. As long as ME has a nice range of women types , personality, etc. then having one hot blonde really shouldn't be a big deal.

Now if they are all drop dead gorgeous busty girls that would be something quite a bit different.

The "there are buxom sexy blonde women in real life" argument would hold more weight if the vast majority of women weren't incredibly idealized compared to women in real life. And ffs it's mass effect, chances are all of them will be designed to be considered gorgeous by a male audience, I'd love to be proven wrong after Bioware made DAI.

I don't really see the issue with sex in games, either. It seems to stem from the idea that sex, sexuality and nudity are somehow sacred when often sex has a lot in common with videogames. Usually, you have sex because you want to feel good and there isn't much more to it. Sorta like playing a videogame, it's just a hedonistic act with the main point being pleasure. Unlike violence, it's also an expected behavior of healthy adults and yet we can't handle the topic like we are adults.

There are a lot of reasons to have sex other than just basic pleasure. Many that can't be replicated via sex(in this case misinterpreting oogling at virtual women as "sex") in games.

What is wrong with Cidney aside from wearing a low cut shirt? Something that many blonde haired women I know do regularly.

You mean besides the fact that her outfit looks absolutely ridiculous when it was a great opportunity to do something really unique with the female Sid-esque character. Mechanics don't look or dress like that. They even could've kept the same low cut shirt that is apparently a trait of blonde women irl and not a useless anecdote.

And then ofc the cinematography decisions but I think we all know what i'm referring to. It's yet another example where female sexualization feels completely out of place and ridiculous at the expense of the character.

 

[Regiruler]

Violence, on a general level, can have a much wider range of justifications and implementations: the ESRB's many sub classifications is a good indicator of this. Some of these justifications and implementations can be considered more acceptable than others. Se, and nudity, by contrast, have a far narrower set of applicable contexts.

Not to mention violence is the cornerstone of combat, one of the bread and butter gameplay items (and the focus on which that can define genres).

 

[Famassu]

What is wrong with Cidney aside from wearing a low cut shirt? Something that many blonde haired women I know do regularly.

Mechanics usually dress something like this

http://previews.123rf.com/images/gi...is-being-repaired-in-the-work-Stock-Photo.jpg


Not this

http://gamesnosh.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/final-fantasy-xv-cindy-a-ukazka-mesta-a.jpg

 

[Apathy]

I think the problem that a very small number of people (and it is a small number of people, most people just don't give a shit, even people who want better representation of women in games) have with DOAX is that it is DOA themed game. If it was just some random Sexy Babe Extreme Volleyball game, I doubt it would draw even the small amount of criticism it does currently. But it takes characters from a (once?) popular fighting game series where these women are kicking some serious ass with the characters not being JUST eye-candy (though of course somewhat objectified) and puts those kinds of characters in a game where they are nothing BUT sex objects.

It would be the same even in some scenario where no nudity was involved. Say Nintendo took Zelda and finally gave her a game of her own, but that game is Style Savvy: Zelda Edition. At that point people would have more of a legitimate reason to complain, when finally we get a Zelda game and it's about girls & clothing instead of being a proper adventure game. But when Style Savvy is an IP of its own, no one really gives a shit that Nintendo releases such a stereotypical "hey girls, we have a girly game for you" kind of game in a time when at least a part of society is trying to move away from such stereotypical gender roles/activities. Much in the same way, there are a portion of people who feel that a game like DOAX cheapens the DOA characters into something less than what they were in the fighting games, even if some level of objectification has always been in DOA's genes.

You just reminded me of that awful princess peach game where you had to use her emotions like crying and anger to get her to do things.

 

[Karsticles]

What's seperated is that "sexy" is so rarely if ever justified and most of the time looks completely out of place and awkward. And even when it is given a reason by the mostly male staff of writers it usually comes off as incredibly Violence however is almost always contextualized. That reason alone makes the comparison between the acceptance of the two incredibly disingenuous.

I disagree. Violence is often completely lacking in context. In numerous games, you slaughter numerous people just because they're in the way. Early games, like The Legend of Zelda, had no context at all for why you were stabbing things in the woods.

Even when sexualized characters are contextualized, they are often frowned upon. For example, R. Mika was revealed for Street Fighter V, and received a lot of negative feedback due to her showy outfit. However, as numerous people have pointed out, her outfit is contextually accurate for the profession she is a member of.

Furthermore, over-the-top violence is often beloved. When MadWorld released, and you gained points for torturing people in various ways before killing them, no one complained. People buy Mortal Kombat just to watch the fatalities.

I only cut your post short because it is huge and has images - I read the whole thing.

 

[Seven4sses]

The Order had a pretty realistic sex scene, and The Witcher 3 has great sex scenes from a context/equality perspective, even if they are woefully directed in themselves.

Ahh, good to know. I haven't played either games yet, but I heard Witcher handled sex better than Mass Effect.

The bigger problem is games that use the act of sex as some sort of bizzare minigame reward like mass effect. It really deflates whatever emotional connection you're supposed to form with these characters when eventually you ding out on their emotional meter and you're "treated" to a terrible sex scene which looks more awkward than loving, or even physically pleasing.

It works in wolfenstein because it's not some hamfisted extension of gameplay. The relationship is a concrete one, so they can play up the romance and have sex simply be an element of it instead of being the end all be all of what their relationship is supposed to be. It sort of works in fallout 4 because the bonding feels more natural as it's based on your acts in the game and not on some predetermined list of prerequisites (although the like/dislike system in fallout makes no sense at times). Games don't normally do this because, let's face it, most game developers don't give a shit about building emotional bonds.

I would have said Mass Effect would be a good example of it, but then I remembered I was playing a renegade Shepard and berating Ashley on everything so that definitely wouldn't be as believable or good.

Spoiler

Even less believable with an alien.

I feel like making the effort to build emotional bonds would be the next step for the medium. Then again, I feel like this would require better writing and stories for games and not many are going out of their way to make stories better.

 

[LPride]

Mechanics usually dress something like this

http://previews.123rf.com/images/gi...is-being-repaired-in-the-work-Stock-Photo.jpg


Not this

http://gamesnosh.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/final-fantasy-xv-cindy-a-ukazka-mesta-a.jpg

Are you really arguing that Final Fantasy outfits should be grounded in reality? The series with all the belts and zippers?

And then ofc the cinematography decisions but I think we all know what i'm referring to. It's yet another example where female sexualization feels completely out of place and ridiculous at the expense of the character.

Maybe we are at a fundamental impasse here because I hear a lot of 'its at the expense of the character', for a Final Fantasy game. Shes the Cid. These characters deal in broad stereotypes, its not like FF is a masterpeice of characterization and storytelling. Vincent wont ever be anything but a brooding pretty boy and Rikkus just a spunky sidekick. Theres no risk of damaging the depth of Cidneys character, she wont have any. Shes ticking the boxes for the things that make an FF game.

 

[Apathy]

The "there are buxom sexy blonde women in real life" argument would hold more weight if the vast majority of women weren't incredibly idealized compared to women in real life. And ffs it's mass effect, chances are all of them will be designed to be considered gorgeous by a male audience, I'd love to be proven wrong after Bioware made DAI.


There are a lot of reasons to have sex other than just basic pleasure. Many that can't be replicated via sex(in this case misinterpreting oogling at virtual women as "sex") in games.


You mean besides the fact that her outfit looks absolutely ridiculous when it was a great opportunity to do something really unique with the female Sid-esque character. Mechanics don't look or dress like that. They even could've kept the same low cut shirt that is apparently a trait of blonde women irl and not a useless anecdote.

And then ofc the cinematography decisions but I think we all know what i'm referring to. It's yet another example where female sexualization feels completely out of place and ridiculous at the expense of the character.

Let's not be disingenuous here, both sexes are idealized versions of each other in video games. The women are made to be overly sexualized by their figures but the men are are also a power fantasy than no one actually achieves in real life. The amount of 6 pack abs, 6 feet tall, ruggedly handsome chisels jaw perfect Adonis that every man in the game wants to be and every woman in the game wanrs to be with is absurd. Do women get it worse, yes, because they are portrayed as only being useful for their sexuallity but it's still just a clusterfuck for everyone.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I disagree. Violence is often completely lacking in context. In numerous games, you slaughter numerous people just because they're in the way. Early games, like The Legend of Zelda, had no context at all for why you were stabbing things in the woods.

Even when sexualized characters are contextualized, they are often frowned upon. For example, R. Mika was revealed for Street Fighter V, and received a lot of negative feedback due to her showy outfit. However, as numerous people have pointed out, her outfit is contextually accurate for the profession she is a member of.

Furthermore, over-the-top violence is often beloved. When MadWorld released, and you gained points for torturing people in various ways before killing them, no one complained. People buy Mortal Kombat just to watch the fatalities.

I only cut your post short because it is huge and has images - I read the whole thing.

Bullshit violence usually never has any context, just using the example you provided, the legend of zelda had this in the manual.

Madworld too:

MadWorld is divided into several levels representing different parts of Jefferson Island that have been converted into sets for the game show "DeathWatch".

Both have entire backstory that provides the context of why you're doing what you're doing. And Madworld's designers intended it to be comical, hence the reason it's over the top.

Let's not be disingenuous here, both sexes are idealized versions of each other in video games. The women are made to be overly sexualized by their figures but the men are are also a power fantasy than no one actually achieves in real life. The amount of 6 pack abs, 6 feet tall, ruggedly handsome chisels jaw perfect Adonis that every man in the game wants to be and every woman in the game wanrs to be with is absurd. So women get it worse, yes, because they are portrayed as only being useful for their sexuallity but it's still just a clusterfuck for everyone.

Both sexes are usually idealized but there isn't a large effort to design male characters with the gaze of women in mind. In fact the total opposite, they're usually designed so that we can self insert ourselves into them. We also have many games where the protagonist is at least questioned and isn't a jesus like figure that is revered by every character.

Are you really arguing that Final Fantasy outfits should be grounded in reality? The series with all the belts and zippers?



Maybe we are at a fundamental impasse here because I hear a lot of 'its at the expense of the character', for a Final Fantasy game. Shes the Cid. These characters deal in broad stereotypes, its not like FF is a masterpeice of characterization and storytelling. Vincent wont ever be anything but a brooding pretty boy and Rikkus just a spunky sidekick. Theres no risk of damaging the depth of Cidneys character, she wont have any. Shes ticking the boxes for the things that make an FF game.

For the game that's a fantasy based on reality and even features real life brands and stuff, yes. Also, despite FF usually having terrible stories, (despite having 7 hours of cutscenes in recent entries), it would be nice to have a female character designed with the same mindset that goes into male designs. Having a character designed like Cindy is still overly common in huge jrpgs.

 

[Occam]

Regarding hypocrisy:

 

[LPride]

Let's not be disingenuous here, both sexes are idealized versions of each other in video games. The women are made to be overly sexualized by their figures but the men are are also a power fantasy than no one actually achieves in real life. The amount of 6 pack abs, 6 feet tall, ruggedly handsome chisels jaw perfect Adonis that every man in the game wants to be and every woman in the game wanrs to be with is absurd. Do women get it worse, yes, because they are portrayed as only being useful for their sexuallity but it's still just a clusterfuck for everyone.

Usually the 'it happens to both sexes' argument falls flat because msot games are designed by men and for men, but FF is a different case since Noctis and company are complete fujo-bait.

 

[capitalCORN]

If I can't have it in real life, I want it in games damnit!

 

[Apathy]

Usually the 'it happens to both sexes' argument falls flat because msot games are designed by men and for men, but FF is a different case since Noctis and company are complete fujo-bait.

The problem is it shouldn't fall flat. It's still a stereotype, it's still detrimental to individuals. For people (not you specifically) to toss it aside and say it isn't a problem men face is also disingenuous. Both men and women are susceptible to body issues and the problems with mental health that brings.

 

[Bergerac]

The answer is actually the backwards example. It's not that sex is forbidden because it's something you shouldn't do, it's rather that violence is prevalent in games because it's something you shouldn't do IRL.

It's a conscious effort to create an outlet. Violent 'interaction' is prevalent in games because it's the only place you can get away with it. It's not that we 'don't' want sex it's that a lot of us 'do' want to play out a violent romp. That's why developers jump towards creating an action fantasy. It's actually something you can't fulfill without severe consequence as an absolute.

 

[capitalCORN]

The problem is it shouldn't fall flat. It's still a stereotype, it's still detrimental to individuals. For people (not you specifically) to toss it aside and say it isn't a problem men face is also disingenuous. Both men and women are susceptible to body issues and the problems with mental health that brings.

Do you feel physically uncomfortable when seeing the average male protagonist?

 

[Novocaine]

Not really. In some traditional cultures, for instance, they kill elderly members of a family during food shortages or when they're moving the settlement.

Also, lots of animals kill their siblings, and sometimes parents kill or even eat their young.

But again, how does any of this bear on the 'it's a natural instinct, therefore it's okay for DOAX to be cheap titilation and for quiet to be constantly writhing around and showing the player her cleavage'. That's a non sequitur if ever I've heard one.

I was not trying to be a dick with the derail, I was legitimately curious.

I really don't know how to explain the natural thing. I'm a hetero male with a high sex drive, so to me it just makes sense. Granted I don't really get sexual stimulation from video game characters with huge tits, but I can totally understand why someone would, and how it would feel natural and normal to be that way.

 

[twobear]

I was not trying to be a dick with the derail, I was legitimately curious.

Well as I said, that just adds further issues to the notion of natural instincts, which isn't likely to help the claim that it makes the status quo fine.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Do you feel physically uncomfortable when seeing the average male protagonist?

I understand the point he's trying to make, it's still a bad one, because a shot like this is still incredibly uncommon to the point that it's notable because it so rarely happens.

 

[Shadoken]

Violence leads to many good game mechanics Fighters,HackNSlash,Shooter games. Plus most sports are technically violent in nature. I cant think of how Sex or Nudity can lead to any good game mechanic or system.

And if you are just referring to cutscenes then this isn't something only with Video Games. Even in Movies,Comics,Cartoons its all the same. I suppose Video games are put alongside Cartoons,Comics where people think the primary audience is still kids , so its held to stricter standards than movies.

 

[Apathy]

Do you feel physically uncomfortable when seeing the average male protagonist?

No, I personal don't have any issues of how anyone, male or female is portrayed in fictional media (well that's not true, I have an issue with how blade and soul handles is female characters). I also have no issues with violence. But that is because I also got over my issues with my body issues in my early 20's when I stopped caring what the idealized male body type that the media was pushing was not what I wanted to be. as an overweight teenager I struggle with body image issues. Sure I'm a healthy weight now, but I don't strive for 6 pack abs because of fictional depictions and I don't get upset by them, but I do realize the negative impact they can have, specially on teenagers, the target demographic for these things.

 

[Bergerac]

Added to that, the vast majority of games are operating in the mainstream, built by dev teams in office buildings, answering to publishers, shareholders and very corporate parties. In that way, games development is no different than movies.

Unless we suddenly have a boom in French developed games, don't expect a major outpouring of erotic mainstream games like their films. These guys are making mainstream action romp and horror games. They're not seeking to do anything else because they have ther market. Unless you're Arty and Mac over there making their 2D erotic point and click, chances are you're not in the business of erotic medium.

This question may as well be asked of Universal, 20th Century Fox, etc.

 

[capitalCORN]

No, I personal don't have any issues of how anyone, male or female is portrayed in fictional media (week that's not true, I have an issue with how blade and soul handles is female characters). I also have no issues with violence. But that is because I also got over my issues with my body issues in my early 20's when I stopped caring what the idealized male body type that the media was pushing was not what I wanted to be. as an overweight teenager I struggle with body image issues. Sure I'm a healthy weight now, but I don't strive for 6 pack abs because of fictional depictions and I don't get upset by them, but I do realize the negative impact they can have, specially on teenagers, the target demographic for these things.

Masculinity is sold as power, not sex, female characters are so exclusively on body alone. If you have no problems now, then you have no wager.

 

[Apathy]

Masculinity is sold as power, not sex, female characters are so exclusively on body alone. If you have no problems now, then you have no wager.

Yes it's not like I could possibly have worked with youths that experience these issues before right? So I can't possibly have a problem with media representation as it is now. Masculinity is sold as both a power fantasy as well as a sex fantasy in video games as it is in films and tv's. The buff guys getting the women and easily bedding them. Women swooning over their muscles. You clearly think because I may have gotten over my own issues I can't somehow fight the issues others face. Guess now I should no longer fight against discrimination I see because I have no wager in them either?

 

[Senoculum]

Somewhat agree with you, other than that sex doesn't always need to be "contextualized". Something like DOA, the entire point is the sex. That is the context. Its the POINT of the game. Why is that a bad thing? Its not, its staring at virtual breasts, big deal.

Now I can agree 100% that throwing random sexualiztion in games that don't need it is totally inappropriate. If I was playing The Last of Us and randomly one of your traveling partners is some hugely buxom babe that is barely wearing any clothes I would be furious. The game is serious and has serious tones.

That said in a GENERAL acceptance you will see far more people condemn something like DOA than Mortal Kombat. Which is pretty ridiculous imo.

It's not that it's a bad thing, it's just immature. Titillation is a real thing, and it's low hanging fruit to have a secret "panty shot" in a game, or to have alternative costumes that're hyper sexualized. It's not serving anyone but those who are willing to jack off to pixels. It's totally and utterly ridiculous and panders to fan service. Especially something like DOA Volleyball. "The point" is lost because it's silly and cartoonish and stuck in a high school mentality.

Let's be real here, some developers can be silly and childish - it's not like they're paradigms of civility and maturity; I mean, you literally have 3D artists making porn from character models from all sorts of games...

This is coming from someone who doesn't think either virtual violence or sex is inherently bad. Contextualization is important - if you want to gain the respect of your peers, if you're relying on your storytelling, and it displays your emotional tact (or sexual frustrations).

Finally, the OP is dead wrong, violence walks on the same line. Something extreme and appalling is met with equal amounts of distaste. I haven't seen a game that exactly sinks to the depths of "Silo" or "A Serbian Film" or "Genocyber."

 

[Karsticles]

Bullshit violence usually never has any context, just using the example you provided, the legend of zelda had this in the manual.

Madworld too:

Both have entire backstory that provides the context of why you're doing what you're doing. And Madworld's designers intended it to be comical, hence the reason it's over the top.


Both sexes are usually idealized but there isn't a large effort to design male characters with the gaze of women in mind. In fact the total opposite, they're usually designed so that we can self insert ourselves into them. We also have many games where the protagonist is at least questioned and isn't a jesus like figure that is revered by every character.


For the game that's a fantasy based on reality and even features real life brands and stuff, yes. Also, despite FF usually having terrible stories, (despite having 7 hours of cutscenes in recent entries), it would be nice to have a female character designed with the same mindset that goes into male designs. Having a character designed like Cindy is still overly common in huge jrpgs.

"You have to defeat Ganon, so go kill those spiders hopping around in the mountains." - makes perfect sense.

If you think that a character being on a gore-reality TV show is enough to justify torturing people and removing their limbs, then how is a bikini island not enough context for Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball? They're the same levels of "back story" to justify the context. I think you are applying some serious double standards here.

 

[capitalCORN]

Yes it's not like I could possibly have worked with youths that experience these issues before right? So I can't possibly have a problem with media representation as it is now. Masculinity is sold as both a power fantasy as well as a sex fantasy in video games as it is in films and tv's. The buff guys getting the women and easily bedding them. Women swooning over their muscles. You clearly think because I may have gotten over my own issues I can't somehow fight the issues others face. Guess now I should no longer fight against discrimination I see because I have no wager in them either?

Men can lean down and bulk up. Women can't suddenly grow triple-d breasts and grow a desirable ass out of nowhere.

 

[Apathy]

Men can lean down and bulk up. Women can't suddenly grow triple-d breasts and grow a desirable ass out of nowhere.

Wow, can't even believe you typed this out as an argument.

 

[Kinyou]

The difference is that hot guys are usually portrayed holistically and their sexual appeal is derived from their entirety: from body language, to overall muscularture as opposed to a single body part, to personality. Whereas the stereotypical portrayal of the hot girl is way more reductionistically focused on specific parts as the source of sexual appeal.

I believe part of that comes down to differences between what women and men find appealing though.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Honestly, I would have 0 problem with the weird slightly creepy anime gal games if the girls weren't so very obviously under 16. That's not okay.

Why though? It's not like they're really 16. Isn't allowing people to live out their fantasies virtually, whatever they may be, better than forcing them to repress them?

 

[The Real Abed]

Men can lean down and bulk up. Women can't suddenly grow triple-d breasts and grow a desirable ass out of nowhere.

I'm pretty sure they kind of can.

 

[Basketball]

I'm pretty sure they kind of can.

lol tis tru

 

[Zee-Row]

Women in the US can't even breastfeed in public without having a problem. It's crazy.

 

[Uthred]

However, this is all besides the point. The point is that it's well documented that Victorian Britain (eg 1820s+, not "one hundred years ago") printed countless books and pamphlets about keeping sex and nudity under wraps (which came from their Puritan beliefs) and these were spread about (by word and paper) in America as well as Britain. A lot of the key phrases are still bandied about today, almost verbatim, including about how girls should be 'chaste' or committed, and should take care of their men - 1:1 comes from Victorian literature. When you read the stuff, it's terrifying how clearly it has been adopted in UK and US cultures (the same doesn't go for all of Europe). I studied this at university, should be able to find some examples.

No, what's beside the point is the initial origin of these values. The key point, the germane point, is that origin of the value system is not relevant to the current situation because the phrase "it's an American thing" is referring to the present or recent past. It is not referring to the reality a century or more ago. America is, clearly, the dominant cultural force in the West as well as the main driver behind these values. You can find plenty of academic research to back that up as well, shockingly enough other people also attended college and covered cultural studies, media and communications. Which is probably why so many of them have time to waste on internet message boards .

Was it originally a British thing? Certainly. No-one's contesting it's origin. But it is most certainly "an American thing" these days.

 

[RipperGrim]

I haven't really even heard of anyone making a fuss about sex in games (Besides the same people who believe video games causes violence but they are just idiots to be ignored).

The only times I have seen it really is when it's done terribly and people call it out and make fun of it (Dragon Age Origins and Ride to Hell come to mind) or how women are represented in games and that's not really getting upset with the actual act of sex anyways.

The Witcher series is even famous for it's outrageous sex scenes and fans expect them to be in the games.

 

[pj]

I get enough sex from real life and porn.

I don't pop many mutant heads off with a laser from 150m away in my daily life, so I play videogames.

 

[mr.beers]

I think Witcher 3 did well in this regard. It was usually playful and harmless.