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[Mesoian]

The "violence and sex & nudity" debate kind of suggests more mature (or at least less immature) material than Japanese Boob Games like DOAX. I'm all for sex and nudity to be less stigmatized in games but I can see why the JBGs would still stir up controversy. (Edit: And I'm not necessarily saying said boob games shouldn't exist, I just wish people would treat them like what they are.)

It would be easier if these types of games were actually good and could stand up on their own without the baseless titillation. But man, most of them are straight up trash.

I would much rather have the argument of, "man, this game is really good, but I wish it wasn't so sexy" that we have with games like Bayonetta and Street Fighter instead of "No, you guys just don't understand, there's nuance to this...bikini girl rancher game for the Vita..."

 

[Sianos]

Absolutely agreed, and this ties to the Victorian 'men shouldn't talk about things, that's for women to do' idea which is inferred from my post here on page 2.

You're right - the fact here is that 'tits and ass' for no reason is objectifying these aspects of the female body. Reducing/quantifying the female body to only their highly sexualised parts.

What you're talking about is sexual objectification - a symptom of structural sexism.

I agree, and I think the impact of what I call "puritanical guilt ethics" has ramifications beyond sexuality, but that's for another thread.

Part of the problem in general is that societal norms heavily discourage men from healthily discussing their emotions and scorn those who do. Men arent taught how to healthily deal with emotions, and in many cases are taught to actively supress any emotions besides hate and lust. This, combined with media exclusively modelling unhealthy and unacceptable sexual behavior and norms (sexual gratification can only be obtained by breaking people's boundaries and making them uncomfortable, women don't express their sexual desires so you have to push them, sex as a reward for doing tasks) without them being taught healthy behavior in their real lives has led to the proliferation of the toxic ideas expressed in movements like PUA and GG.

As far as objectification goes, there is a huge difference between sexualization and reducing a person down to their tittilating parts. In games, men may be sexualized, but they are very rarely objectified down to exaggerated parts on a thin frame - they are to be taken as a sexy holistic person. Yet the portrayal of women is often reductionist, focused on only parts of them. This is an unhealthy way to view a person and leads to the people themselves being treated as objects: combined with the fact that the media and society as a whole almost always models unhealthy and non-consensual sexual behavior, this is a very dangerous mix.

Context is essential for healthy depictions of sexuality, and there has not been enough in many cases.

 

[dragonbane]

Small detail, but in The Order 1886 you have a brief fight with a nude guy (in a cutscene, I think) and you can see his cock, and it's just a thing that happens and the characters quickly move on. It's in a brothel and the rest of the place is done tastelessly as one might expect, but I think it was the first naked man I've ever seen in a game and I liked how brief and downplayed it was.

Ethan's butt in Heavy Rain is another. Also very brief and it made perfect sense

 

[SomTervo]

This is why the whole Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 scenario is ridiculous. Feel free to go through this 365 post thread entitled "Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 (PS4/Vita) - Debut Gameplay Teaser Trailer & Screenshots" and point out all the times people complain about the game. If you don't want do, I've already done so and can tell you there are none. Someone mentioned that there was one other lengthy thread where they saw a couple of complaints, but we're looking at a very low ratio of complaints happening here if at all. The reason is that the context of the game is clearly to gawk at women in swimsuits who are at the beach, so there's nothing about mostly naked women that actually seems out of place here.

If the bolded is accepted in more dedicated gaming circles, it certainly isn't in broader society. It's anecdotal, but I know people are seriously put-off by games and imagery like that. The discussion covers wider cultural paradigms.

Also a GAF thread probably isn't the best evidence - readers might stay away from what they don't like. I know I would stay the heck away from that thread because I find DOA problematic and offputting.

 

[Obliterator]

I mean it is very bizarre to be honest. Nudity and sex are great things that can be a fantastic part of your life. Its natural.

Death and gore hopefully will not be a major part of your normal life though. And yet it is without a doubt far more accepting. I've met tons of people who are fine with their kids sadistically torturing someone as Trevor in GTA but the second even a side boob pops up they are furious.

Weird stuff

 

[Nerix]

Small detail, but in The Order 1886 you have a brief fight with a nude guy (in a cutscene, I think) and you can see his cock, and it's just a thing that happens and the characters quickly move on. It's in a brothel and the rest of the place is done tastelessly as one might expect, but I think it was the first naked man I've ever seen in a game and I liked how brief and downplayed it was.

You´re right, I remember that scene. It was really downplayed and seemed to be totally "normal". It should be done like that.

In general, I think it´s quite strange that violence is widely accepted but not nudity / sex.

 

[Damigos]

Seriously, what's wrong with you guys?

Same thing happens in movies. Its not new

 

[Boss Doggie]

Well, I've never pulled out someone's spine, but I have seen a naked woman.

Violence is almost always exaggerated in the media. We can distance ourselves from it as it is very rare for us to experience violence as it is portrayed in videogames. Misrepresentation of sex is weightier as it is an everyday thing. Sex/consent are deeply psychological and easy to get wrong. That's not to say there's no problem with violence. But I think that's a false equivalency; they're two separate issues.

True that might be, violence in video games still stimulate people, and even actions in video games can still affect certain people psychologically.

Also if sex is an everyday thing, wouldn't it actually be less weightier since it's a common thing to see?

sex is much more integral to out lives than violent behavior, it's also much greyer, violence is always a negative, at best it's a necessary evil (with the exception of sports but idk if that actually counts as violence?), whereas sex can be good, bad, and even violent sometimes

they each need to be seen as their own thing for them to be properly understood in the context of art

This explanation I can see the point.

Though personally I feel like while the reasons above are legitimate, I don't feel that those are the reasons we see sex being seen as censored.

 

[Novocaine]

Yes. America is much more Catholic than, say, OP's home country of Italy: the Catholic Capital of the world.

It is misguided to assume this has anything to do with religion. Because it's 2015 and it doesn't.

Catholic/Christian, they both promote sexual repression, and treat any deviancy from sexual relations within marriage as a sin. Old habits die hard, the fact that it's 2015 has nothing to do with it, especially when the majority of America's population aligns itself to the Christian faith.

And anyway, I'm not claiming it's the sole reason for America's prudeness, but it would be kind of silly to rule it out as a factor completely you know?

 

[Dame]

Because there isn't a single example of sex or nudity in games that isn't awful, childish cringeworthy shite.

Agreed for the most part.
I'm all for the expression of sexuality, but you need heavy doses of context here, OP. Games and media don't do it with both men and women in mind. They really don't. That's where I understand this representation of women is dangerous to them. It carries over real life consequences of how we view women's bodies.

Is America very prudish and puritanistic? Sure. That doesn't mean that it has abandoned this weird contradiction where it puts girls in games like Leisure suit Larry or Rumble roses,man.

 

[Lunar15]

The bigger censorship "controversies" on GAF have pretty much squarely revolved around underage/underage looking girls in games with heavy fanservice. There's definitely conversation about the role of women in games and the impact of women as sex objects in games that aren't primarily about pandering, but the major "censorship!" threads are generally about that kind of sexualization.

At least from what I've seen. There's certainly exceptions, R. Mika being one of them.

EDIT: I feel like a lot of different arguments are being tossed together, which really isn't good. People arguing for better contextualization of women in games aren't necessarily anti-sex and anti-nudity, although there is crossover.

 

[Chaos17]

I agree with OP, we see much more nudity and sex in other mediums even when they're teen rated.
If people want nudity and sex be moderate then do the same thing about violence that are boderline to gore.
Ofc, some limits must be made but not just then in video games, please.
Otherwise that's just being an hypocrithe.

 

[Kinyou]

It is funny how the Got game didn't have a single hind of nudity

 

[Bartholomuse]

I checked this thread this morning assuming it would get shuttered due to the non existant OP, and I'm suprised to still see it go this evening.

It's unrelated, but what is Gafs policy on thread creators getting banned in their own thread? Does it not warrant locking the whole thread at that point?

(not undermining some of the good discussion which has managed to be wrangled out of this thread, I've just never seen this happen before and I'm curious)

 

[Crossing Eden]

I mean it is very bizarre to be honest. Nudity and sex are great things that can be a fantastic part of your life. Its natural.

Death and gore hopefully will not be a major part of your normal life though. And yet it is without a doubt far more accepting. I've met tons of people who are fine with their kids sadistically torturing someone as Trevor in GTA but the second even a side boob pops up they are furious.

Weird stuff

What's seperated is that "sexy" is so rarely if ever justified and most of the time looks completely out of place and awkward. And even when it is given a reason by the mostly male staff of writers it usually comes off as incredibly Violence however is almost always contextualized. That reason alone makes the comparison between the acceptance of the two incredibly disingenuous.
No one would bat an eye when you explain to them the context of something like this:

Because the reasoning comes from a genuine place, makes a lot of sense in a logical sense, that and it doesn't sound like a ridiculous narrative reason to excuse something that is pandering towards a specific gender.

I'm not saying that violence is never out of place mind you, but the amount of examples where it makes sense massively outnumber the times where it doesn't, and even in the times where it doesn't it's usually a scene that's out of place where the rest of the game makes sense. Like why an underage girl is dressed like this in a game about ninjas fighting demons and shit. If most games with "sexy" portrayals of women had as much thought put into them as the contextualization of the main interaction between players and the game world specifically the enemies of said game world, then this argument would have a lot more weight, but at the moment, it doesn't seem genuine and more like a deflection of the issue of the portrayal of women in gaming.

People arguing for better contextualization of women in games aren't necessarily anti-sex and anti-nudity, although there is crossover.

ALSO THIS. It's such a hard reaching assumption to make about people who want better representation in games. When the person likely knows absolutely nothing about the people outside of the forum.

 

[The Dutch Slayer]

Because most AAA games come from USA and in the USA that is the way it is.

 

[Mivey]

Making violence entertaining interactively is easy. Well explored space of possibilities.
Making sexuality entertaining interactively is hard. Mostly it's low-interactivity porn, so the "player" is basically just watching and the actual interactivity is completely divorced from the element of sexuality. Making the sexuality itself interactive would require understanding how pretty much anyone could possibly react to that (including not wanting to engage with it). Basically you need to have an intelligent agent that can simulate a non-trivial relationship with the player. Very rarely done in video games, I guess mostly because it would not end up being "fun". See "Façade", that actually does this in a very rough way (though there is no overt sexuality, the characters are supposed to simulate non-scripted emotional reactions to the player. It is easy to see how an extension of this is needed for interactive sexuality to work effectively.


In the end, the medium is still in its infancy. And understanding an interactive medium is much harder than understanding a non-interactive one, such as movies or books. Its not surprising that even after almost 30 years we are still barely scrapping the barrel of possible kinds of interaction. Violence just happens to be the easiest one, the same way a child first learns gross motor skills, before mastering fine motor skills.

 

[Kinyou]

Actually when I think about it, regarding the Game of thrones game, Apple is notorious for pulling games that feature nudity. So it's likely that Telltale made that compromise for the mobile market.

 

[Corpekata]

It is funny how the Got game didn't have a single hind of nudity

Probably because it would be awkward as fuck in Telltale's borked engine, which was especially highlighted in GoT.

They can barely make basic movements convincing in that game. I'd hate to see how a sexposition scene would play out with them.

There was nudity in Wolf Among Us so they're not opposed to it totally.

 

[Obliterator]

What's seperated is that "sexy" is so rarely if ever justified and most of the time looks completely out of place and awkward. And even when it is given a reason by the mostly male staff of writers it usually comes off as incredibly Violence however is almost always contextualized. That reason alone makes the comparison between the acceptance of the two incredibly disingenuous.
No one would bat an eye when you explain to them the context of something like this:

Because the reasoning comes from a genuine place, makes a lot of sense in a logical sense, that and it doesn't sound like a ridiculous narrative reason to excuse something that is pandering towards a specific gender.

I'm not saying that violence is never out of place mind you, but the amount of examples where it makes sense massively outnumber the times where it doesn't, and even in the times where it doesn't it's usually a scene that's out of place where the rest of the game makes sense. Like why an underage girl is dressed like this in a game about ninjas fighting demons and shit. If most games with "sexy" portrayals of women had as much thought put into them as the contextualization of the main interaction between players and the game world specifically the enemies of said game world, then this argument would have a lot more weight, but at the moment, it doesn't seem genuine and more like a deflection of the issue of the portrayal of women in gaming.


ALSO THIS. It's such a hard reaching assumption to make about people who want better representation in games. When the person likely knows absolutely nothing about the people outside of the forum.

Somewhat agree with you, other than that sex doesn't always need to be "contextualized". Something like DOA, the entire point is the sex. That is the context. Its the POINT of the game. Why is that a bad thing? Its not, its staring at virtual breasts, big deal.

Now I can agree 100% that throwing random sexualiztion in games that don't need it is totally inappropriate. If I was playing The Last of Us and randomly one of your traveling partners is some hugely buxom babe that is barely wearing any clothes I would be furious. The game is serious and has serious tones.

That said in a GENERAL acceptance you will see far more people condemn something like DOA than Mortal Kombat. Which is pretty ridiculous imo.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Its not creepy or embarrassing, its just really personal.

Wat.jpg

 

[Crossing Eden]

Somewhat agree with you, other than that sex doesn't always need to be "contextualized". Something like DOA, the entire point is the sex. That is the context. Its the POINT of the game. Why is that a bad thing? Its not, its starting at virtual breasts, big deal.

Now I can agree 100% that throwing random sexualiztion in games that don't need it is totally inappropriate. If I was playing The Last of Us and randomly one of your traveling partners is some hugely buxom babe that is barely wearing any clothes I would be furious. The game is serious and has serious tones.

That said in a GENERAL acceptance you will see far more people condemn something like DOA than Moral Kombat. Which is pretty ridiculous imo.

In a medium where that is overwhelmingly the case that most of the time it is out of place, I'm sure the reactions to such games that are completely honest about what they are, (the fans most of time seem unable to do this when citing that no really it's about the gameplay -_-) would be much different, especially if there were just as many games created with the female gaze in mind either, you'd never hear things like about for the development of a male character.

The PlayStation 4 version of game is to feature an improved breasts physics engine from Dead or Alive 5 Last Round, called Soft Engine 2.0., with the PlayStation Vita version using Soft Engine Lite

Not to mention the other issue stems where sexualization is still randomly thrown in games very commonly with flimsy excuses from the devs and fans. And again, the violent gameplay in Mortal Kombat is way more contextualized than say who's behind the voyeur camera spying on women. The logic behind comparing
-something that is almost always contextualized
vs
-something that almost always isn't

and saying:Why is the
-that is almost always contextualized

more accepted than
-the one that isn't

is relatively ridiculous when you really think about it.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Honestly, I would have 0 problem with the weird slightly creepy anime gal games if the girls weren't so very obviously under 16. That's not okay.

Which is a fine stance to have that many people understandably have. It's not really going to stop them from coming out though as I said here. With the success of Criminal Girls and DRPGs in general, I imagine more will hit here as well.

 

[Obliterator]

In a medium where that is overwhelmingly the case that most of the time it is out of place, I'm sure the reactions to such games that are completely honest about what they are, (the fans most of time seem unable to do this when citing that no really it's about the gameplay -_-) would be much different, especially if there were just as many games created with the female gaze in mind either, you'd never hear things like about for the development of a male character.

Not to mention the other issue stems where sexualization is still randomly thrown in games very commonly with flimsy excuses from the devs and fans.

I mean here's the thing, if women want a game the equivalent of DOA for them, then start calling out for it. Make the voice heard.

Listen, random sex in major mainstream games is ridiculous. Games that aim to be broad, should be all inclusive. They should try to avoid random acts of sexualization that could quite easily turn off or offend the female demo.

That said, you barely hear a single thing about Mortal Kombat or say God of War. The level of violence and gore in these games boarders on the absolute extreme and yet no one bats a single eye. And yet this is somehow fine, when a side boob isn't? I'm agreeing that we should avoid blatant pandering in major games but if you are going to bash that, is it fair to say extreme violence is fine? I don't think so personally, it seems like quite the double standard.

Basically sexy games are fine, when the game is designed for it. And leave the rando sexy out of broad demo games.

 

[ZSeba]

Whatever nudity and sex is there in videogames comes mostly from western developers. I don't see otaku pandering/fanservice as actual nudity or sex. Its mostly sexual objectification wich I'm personally against.

 

[AntMurda]

How is this medium any different than television / news / films ?

 

[RustyNails]

Didnt satan have a nice big floppy cock waving around in dante's inferno?

 

[Crossing Eden]

I mean here's the thing, if women want a game the equivalent of DOA for them, then start calling out for it. Make the voice heard.

Listen, random sex in major mainstream games is ridiculous. Games that aim to be broad, should be all inclusive. They should try to avoid random acts of sexualization that could quite easily turn off or offend the female demo.

That said, you barely hear a single thing about Mortal Kombat or say God of War. The level of violence and gore in these games boarders on the absolute extreme and yet no one bats a single eye. And yet this is somehow fine, when a side boob isn't? I'm agreeing that we should avoid blatant pandering in major games but if you are going to bash that, is it fair to say extreme violence is fine? I don't think so personally, it seems like quite the double standard.

Basically sexy games are fine, when the game is designed for it. And leave the rando sexy out of broad demo games.

It's fine because the games go out of their way, (more than they need to honestly), to fit those elements within the context. But then also go out of their way sometime to reinforce many things wrong with the portrayal of women in not just games but media in general. Many times "side boob" is all a female character will amount to. While there's an entire story and lore dedicated to why Kratos is fucking pissed or why these people are participating in a horribly violent fight to the death tournament right down to the names of the series themselves.

How is this medium any different than television / news / films ?

In some ways it's not but in many ways it is, the interaction between the viewer and game characters for one. Not to mention, this is a game forum.

 

[slavesnyder]

As long as I don't get violencehub I have to get my brutality somewhere else.

 

[kuroneko0509]

In a medium where that is overwhelmingly the case that most of the time it is out of place, I'm sure the reactions to such games that are completely honest about what they are, (the fans most of time seem unable to do this when citing that no really it's about the gameplay -_-) would be much different, especially if there were just as many games created with the female gaze in mind either, you'd never hear things like about for the development of a male character.

Not to mention the other issue stems where sexualization is still randomly thrown in games very commonly with flimsy excuses from the devs and fans. And again, the violent gameplay in Mortal Kombat is way more contextualized than say who's behind the voyeur camera spying on women. The logic behind comparing
-something that is almost always contextualized
vs
-something that almost always isn't

and saying:Why is the
-that is almost always contextualized

more accepted than
-the one that isn't

is relatively ridiculous when you really think about it.

That video is kind of a poor example. That's the after fight camera that lets to pan around regardless of who it was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50oY2p7g75A

 

[Obliterator]

It's fine because the games go out of their way, (more than they need to honestly), to fit those elements within the context. But then also go out of their way sometime to reinforce many things wrong with the portrayal of women in not just games but media in general. Many times "side boob" is all a female character will amount to. While there's an entire story and lore dedicated to why Kratos is fucking pissed or why these people are participating in a horribly violent fight to the death tournament right down to the names of the series themselves.

Sex is a basic instinct though. I mean its our base level drive. We are animals, as much as people try to pretend we are not. You run on random chemical signals that drive your body to do the things it does.

Does a game like DOA need context for its sex? I mean come on, that's not the point of it. It exists literally only to stimulate a male's base level stimuli and get him horny. I really do not see the issue with that.

Again, in a story driven narrative game? No, there are other places for that. If you are going to try to deliver real art like The Last of Us, Gone Home, etc.

Not every game needs to be Citizen Kane. There is a place for both art, and for porn.

 

[Gamer79]

Welcome to America. We can show murder, torture, and curse on TV. God forbid if you show a pair of tits

 

[Uthred]

Where did Puritanism come from?

Oh yeah, the Church of England.

Where did the most historically recent giant empire come from, which enforced its culture on nations around the world (inc. bringing it to America)?

Oh yeah, Britain.

Which nation at which time formulated the most gender-normative, stereotyping publications and pamphlets about women and sexuality, which were widely read and still broadly adhered to today?

Oh yeah, the Victorians in Britain (coinciding with point 2).

The origin of the cultural values is immaterial considering the distance that separates the origin from their current incarnation. Where they came from is at best an interesting historical note at this point. Who their current biggest proponents are is much more germane to the current conversation. Which would be why I ended my post with

"In short, while its origins may have been British its now enshrined in American moral values. So yes, its "an American thing".

America is by far the biggest bastion of puritanism extant in the western world today. Similarly, I honestly laughed when I read "Where did the most historically recent giant empire come from, which enforced its culture on nations around the world (inc. bringing it to America)" Superpower's are the modern day equivalent to empire's and the most "historically recent", in that it currently exists and maintains dominance, is the US. Similarly the US has been, for literally decades, dominating media in the west (and arguably globally) thanks to its rampant and unabashed cultural imperialism (an extension of its role as the globe's dominant superpower). Honestly pointing at the origins of these societal trends from a century ago and trying to argue that because they originated elsewhere they arent now "an American thing" seems either purposefully obtuse or stupidly naive. Possibly both.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I would love to have more meaningful nudity and more contextually justified sex. That's part of human nature and when it's done tastefully with agency and depth, it is greatly appreciated.

I would also love to have more meaningful violence and more contextually justified killing. Violence, death, war, etc. are also something that is (unfortunately) very present in our reality. I would appreciate if those topics were covered with more nuance.

Unfortunately both topics are woefully treated in mainstream video games and that is what people are criticizing. It's basically pulp trash where either only superficially depicted female characters fawn at the male player character or mindless drones fall over each other to get stabbed/shot in the face by the player character.

Sex and violence are terribly executed in mainstream video games and it is not fruitful to set up a thread that assumes both topics are mutually exclusive. it just reproduces the recurrent misunderstanding of criticism pertaining to sex and violence. The title and OP are incredibly misleading and poisons the conversation.

I feel parts of this thread are trying to equate the situation in 2005 with the situation in 2015, when they're actually very different.

In ~2005, we were having debates around topics like Hot Coffee, Jack Thompson/Leland Ye, and Mass Effect, where the question was clearly "Why is there sex in these toys for children!!!"

That era has long since passed in the West and having nudity and sex in games is a completely non-issue on that basis.

For example, let's take The Witcher 3. It's a game where you can have graphic, full nudity sex scenes, can sleep with multiple women, and can even sleep with multiple women at the same time. There was no real controversy around this. If you look at the only "sexy thing" controversy the game actually had, it was that people felt Ciri's heels were impractical for Witcher fighting.

As you may notice from this, the debate in the West in 2015 revolves around the context of sexuality rather than sexuality itself.

This is why the whole Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 scenario is ridiculous. Feel free to go through this 365 post thread entitled "Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 (PS4/Vita) - Debut Gameplay Teaser Trailer & Screenshots" and point out all the times people complain about the game. If you don't want do, I've already done so and can tell you there are none. Someone mentioned that there was one other lengthy thread where they saw a couple of complaints, but we're looking at a very low ratio of complaints happening here if at all. The reason is that the context of the game is clearly to gawk at women in swimsuits who are at the beach, so there's nothing about mostly naked women that actually seems out of place here.

Now let's move on to a character who generated a lot of controversy: Cindy from Final Fantasy XV. So the premise of Final Fantasy XV is that you're going on a brotastic road trip on your way to an arranged marriage.

Let's imagine that FF15 was a modern WRPG instead and the developers wanted her to be a sexual character. When you first meet her, she'd likely be fully dressed, maybe with her regular mechanic's jumpsuit somewhat unzipped. You'd then be able to flirt with her, go on a date to a nearby restaurant, and then have sex with her. In the sex scene, she'd wander out in the outfit she has now and make some terrible pun about how "I'm dressed to fix a different kind of problem today." and then she'd end up stripping off the top and you'd see boobs and an actual sex scene. This is the type of thing that would go unnoticed in 2015, because it's fully contextualized and generally expected.

However, this is a T-rated Japanese game where they actually view their audience as potentially having lots of children, so instead of putting that in or even having implied sex scenes when a guy is on his way to get married, we just have her sitting there mostly naked as part of her regular work attire. There doesn't appear to be any attempt to actually contextualize this either beyond the game just going "LOOK!! BOOBS!!!". When Tabata was asked about her character, it's not like he sat down and went "Well we're making a T-rated game, but it's in the style of R-rated road trip movies, and thus we're attempting to get into that raunchy nature while still keeping it appropriate for younger teens. As such, Cid runs a series of mechanics shops called 'Tube Lube' that are essentially like Hooters. This is why Cindy is dressed this way. It will be clear in the full game." Instead, his answer was basically "Our artists wanted to make a hot chick and I didn't want to bother coming up with a reason for it."

The defense of nudity/sexuality in the 2005 era and the complaints about arbitrarily sexualized outfits in the 2015 era are actually coming from the same place. It's about people not wanting to be treated like children.

Amazing posts. Thanks for these, saves me the trouble. Of course, we'll still see inane posts like this being made over and over again, I'm afraid:

It's always been amusing for me how we are soooo okay with crazy violence in games but nudity is treated like the worst thing in the universe.

It's quite sad and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

There's nothing wrong with nudity, we should celebrate the beauty of the naked body but instead we have so many people bitching about it all day while we get games like God of War and Mortal Kombat and no one cares.

lol... yeah, no one ever criticized God of War and MK. It must be fun to live on planet lala-land.

 

[Jedi2016]

'cause 'Murica.

That's why things like DOAX exist, because not 'Murica.

 

[Crossing Eden]

That video is kind of a poor example. That's the after fight camera that lets to pan around regardless of who it was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50oY2p7g75A

That misleading title. ._.

Sex is a basic instinct though. I mean its our base level drive. We are animals, as much as people try to pretend we are not. You run on random chemical signals that drive your body to do the things it does.

Does a game like DOA need context for its sex? I mean come on, that's not the point of it. It exists literally only to stimulate a male's base level stimuli and get him horny. I really do not see the issue with that.

Again, in a story driven narrative game? No, there are other places for that. If you are going to try to deliver real art like The Last of Us, Gone Home, etc.

Not every game needs to be Citizen Kane. There is a place for both art, and for porn.

Here's the thing, sex is a basic instinct, but most of the time, you have all these games with women in skimpy clothing designed specifically for the male gaze, you've got camera closeups, voyeuristic cinematography etc etc, and these women aren't even having sex. "Sex is a basic instinct" isn't a good excuse when 99% of the time women aren't even having sex in the first place. When so many other games do the same it's just adding one to the pile instead of a unique case.

 

[Obliterator]

That misleading title. ._.

Here's the thing, sex is a basic instinct, but most of the time, you have all these games with women in skimpy clothing designed specifically for the male gaze, you've got camera closeups, voyeuristic cinematography etc etc, and these women aren't even having sex. "Sex is a basic instinct" isn't a good excuse when 99% of the time women aren't even having sex in the first place. When so many other games do the same it's just adding one to the pile instead of a unique case.

I mean the most popular forms of porn globally are usually lesbian sex, or solo female. So why is it even remotely surprising that most of the "porn type" games are this style? Its what the male demo has shown to like. Look at how popular things like cam girls are world wide.

 

[Kinyou]

Probably because it would be awkward as fuck in Telltale's borked engine, which was especially highlighted in GoT.

They can barely make basic movements convincing in that game. I'd hate to see how a sexposition scene would play out with them.

There was nudity in Wolf Among Us so they're not opposed to it totally.

I wouldn't have wanted them to show people banging, or god forbid to even turn it into a QTE event, but some bare breasts or butts wouldn't have been that out of place I think.


Forgot about Wolf Among us, and that apparently it's also on the IOS store.

 

[Lunar15]

One thing that's also not being mentioned is that the same people who bring up arguments against the oversexualization of women in games are often also the same people who bring up arguments against needing to have so much violence in games, particularly violence that isn't well contextualized.

As the people who enjoy games gets older, we look at this stuff in completely different lights. One main drive is to see this medium grow out of something that only targets males 13-24. There's nothing inherently wrong with targeting that demo, but that's been the majority target forever and there's an urge to see more topics covered.

Can we please get off the whole puritanism train? I feel like a lot of this topic is here just to stir up more nonsense after the whole DOAX thing, which, to my knowledge, had almost zero controversy on this board before this week's announcement. It's practically inventing boogeymen to attack.

 

[twobear]

'It's a basic instinct' doesn't really strike me as a great argument. Fratricide is arguably a base instinct too but we don't really condone that.

 

[Hahs]

The Rubins (Pee Wee), the Cosbys, the Fogles help to make intimacy/sex weird, and some - if not most companies don't want to be associated with that type of weirdness.

It could also be that violence isn't really relegated to a private act as much as sex; something that's typically performed behind closed doors - whether consensual or not.

For whatever reasons (right or utterly wrong) violence is typically seen as a means to an end, and the gore associated with it can be boiled down to physics.

Plus in comparison to sex, violence isn't really relegated to a private act as much as sex; something that's typically performed behind closed doors - whether consensual or not..

But basically the stigma of perversion is just too much here in the States right now, and considering that most games are to be sold here....

 

[Crossing Eden]

I mean the most popular forms of porn globally are usually lesbian sex, or solo female. So why is it even remotely surprising that most of the "porn type" games are this style? Its what the male demo has shown to like. Look at how popular things like cam girls are world wide.

Because the industry leads so much towards a male demo instead of focusing on both even when it comes to games with an explicit purpose to titillate.

One thing that's also not being mentioned is that the same people who bring up arguments against the oversexualization of women in games are often also the same people who bring up arguments against needing to have so much violence in games, particularly violence that isn't well contextualized.

As the people who enjoy games gets older, we look at this stuff in completely different lights. One main drive is to see this medium grow out of something that only targets males 13-24. There's nothing inherently wrong with targeting that demo, but that's been the majority target forever and there's an urge to see more topics covered.

Can we please get off the whole puritanism train? I feel like a lot of this topic is here just to stir up more nonsense after the whole DOAX thing, which, to my knowledge, had almost zero controversy on this board before this week's announcement. It's practically inventing boogeymen to attack.

Another thing that's actively ignored is that there ar more non violent games than ever before. Even many triple A games are being advertised as "stealth games" and are giving players the option to just avoid violence altogether or use non lethal play styles.

 

[Obliterator]

Because the industry leads so much towards a male demo instead of focusing on both even when it comes to games with an explicit purpose to titillate.

I don't disagree with that at all. If the female demo wants a game with the type of fanservice as DOA more power to them. Make that voice heard, call out for it. Hell if you are a female developer out there who thinks this sort of thing is wanted make one and sell that bad boy.

There is a male demo that has proven they will buy these types of games. If the girls want some titillation too then make the voice heard and start developing the games.

'It's a basic instinct' doesn't really strike me as a great argument. Fratricide is arguably a base instinct too but we don't really condone that.

Comparing the act of consensual sex to Fratricide? That's jumping the shark right there.

 

[Lunar15]

Because the industry leads so much towards a male demo instead of focusing on both even when it comes to games with an explicit purpose to titillate.


Another thing that's actively ignored is that there ar more non violent games than ever before. Even many triple A games are being advertised as "stealth games" and are giving players the option to just avoid violence altogether or use non lethal play styles.

Undertale is one of the best statements on how weird violence in games can be.

I don't disagree with that at all. If the female demo wants a game with the type of fanservice as DOA more power to them. Make that voice heard, call out for it. Hell if you are a female developer out there who thinks this sort of thing is wanted make one and sell that bad boy.

There is a male demo that has proven they will buy these types of games. If the girls want some titillation too then make the voice heard and start developing the games.

This isn't a really great argument, and it's somewhat key to why a lot of the current arguments about this stuff recently are less about the fact that this stuff is sexual, but rather, objectifying.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I don't disagree with that at all. If the female demo wants a game with the type of fanservice as DOA more power to them. Make that voice heard, call out for it. Hell if you are a female developer out there who thinks this sort of thing is wanted make one and sell that bad boy.

There is a male demo that has proven they will buy these types of games. If the girls want some titillation too then make the voice heard and start developing the games.

The thing is focusing on better representation first is better than keeping the same status quo that's been prevailing for years while the issue gets sidelined. Or alternatively, trying to bring up a different issue altogether like the OP did.

 

[Occam]

The origin of the cultural values is immaterial considering the distance that separates the origin from their current incarnation. Where they came from is at best an interesting historical note at this point. Who their current biggest proponents are is much more germane to the current conversation. Which would be why I ended my post with

"In short, while its origins may have been British its now enshrined in American moral values. So yes, its "an American thing".

America is by far the biggest bastion of puritanism extant in the western world today. Similarly, I honestly laughed when I read "Where did the most historically recent giant empire come from, which enforced its culture on nations around the world (inc. bringing it to America)" Superpower's are the modern day equivalent to empire's and the most "historically recent", in that it currently exists and maintains dominance, is the US. Similarly the US has been, for literally decades, dominating media in the west (and arguably globally) thanks to its rampant and unabashed cultural imperialism (an extension of its role as the globe's dominant superpower). Honestly pointing at the origins of these societal trends from a century ago and trying to argue that because they originated elsewhere they arent now "an American thing" seems either purposefully obtuse or stupidly naive. Possibly both.

Thank you, you saved me the time to spell it out. It's of no consequence where this nipple-hypocrisy originated when determining where it's coming from now: The USA.

 

[twobear]

Comparing the act of consensual sex to Fratricide? That's jumping the shark right there.

I'm just saying you can't really pin moral values on 'it's a natural instinct'.

 

[Obliterator]

The thing is focusing on better representation first is better than keeping the same status quo that's been prevailing for years while the issue gets sidelined.

This is a strawman though that is RAPIDLY changing in the industry. The vast majority of AAA Western releases are leaving behind the whole Titular stuff. It is a dying breed in the AAA game space, as it should be, and is moving more towards its niche games and audience, as it should. For every MGSV and Quiet, there are multiple Syndicates, Black Ops 3, Star War Battlefront's etc that don't have extreme titillation.

 

[Novocaine]

'It's a basic instinct' doesn't really strike me as a great argument. Fratricide is arguably a base instinct too but we don't really condone that.

Care to expand on this? I think about sex all the time but never about killing my sister. Am I supposed to?

 

[Crossing Eden]

This is a strawman though that is RAPIDLY changing in the industry. The vast majority of AAA Western releases are leaving behind the whole Titular stuff. It is a dying breed in the AAA game space, as it should be, and is moving more towards its niche games and audience, as it should. For every MGSV and Quiet, there are multiple Syndicates, Black Ops 3, Star War Battlefront's etc that don't have extreme titillation.

I wouldn't even say that. It could be much better. Make no mistakes it is getting better, this e3 was very eye opening for the future state of the gaming industry, but it could still be more. The new ME will apparently have a buxom blonde woman as a companion for instance, there's Cindy in FFXV, Nier 2's protagonist was introduced with a panty shot. Etc etc.