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[Almighty]

It's not hard to see the chasm in writing/dialogue quality between the two companies when comparing New Vegas with 3/4. Seriously, if you play the games and try to claim that there's no discernible difference in quality, it says more about you than anything else really. And writing is pretty damn important in an RPG where there's tons of it.

Pretty much. The writing in FNV might not be a masterpiece, but it is leagues better then what Bethesda had in F3.

Edit: I was hoping Bethesda would of took some notes from Obsidian with Fallout 4, but it seems like they just decided to go the opposite direction. Not sure how I feel about it honestly.

 

[Vamphuntr]

I'd love to see Bethesda pump out a sequel in a year and a half. Just to see what would happen.

I think the point he raised is quite fair actually. Outside of Dungeon Siege 3 and South Park which were much simpler all their games were extremely buggy at launch or rushed in some capacity. I get that publishers can put a lot of pressure on an independent developer but looking at their history (AP, KOTOR II, NV, NWN 2 and the growing number of cancelled projects) I think you can clearly see a trend forming that they have development issues with big projects. This doesn't downplay the great mechanics and writing of their games at all but the technical problems aren't always the results of evil publishers.

 

[120v]

there should be a moratorium on new vegas threads. how many times can you have the same argument

 

[Cloyster]

Just that Fallout 3 was a cohesive world, that had soul.

 

[Breads]

Can someone explain where the New Vegas fetishism developed? I thought the game was decent, and enjoyed the extra Fallout experience, but I just don't get it. The whole "omg b-b-b-but the dialogue!" is becoming pretty meme-like.

I just feel like there's so much hype piled onto NV since it's Obsidian vs Bethesda.

edit: yes, I do appreciate that there are gameplay enhancements in NV. But I would chalk those up to natural sequel-level enhancements, not God Tier Developer Ultra Enhancements.

New Vegas is a direct sequel to FO 1 and 2, which were all written by the same group of people give or take a few depending on when you're asking. Chris Avellone, who wrote for New Vegas, literally wrote the Fallout Bible more than a decade ago and it showed in how grounded everything was in New Vegas... which in comparison to the rest of the series makes FO 3 read like fan fiction - especially in regards to the Brotherhood of Steel.

That aside, for me, the more time goes by the more I realize just how innovative the writing for FO1, 2, and to a lesser extent New Vegas actually is. If you try to dissect how quests branch out a lot of might feel tacked on (the interchangeable results of the boomers, BoS, omertas, khans, enclave remnants, NCR, Legion, and Securitron quest lines) but the fact of the matter is that when you start the game you can decide what kind of character you want to play and play through most of the game feeling like the decisions you make are informed and in-character instead of feeling like a victim of the story beats who is just along for the ride.

It might not seem like a major thing (partially because of how it wasn't pristine in execution) and it might seem like if they really wanted to any studio can write in as many believable branching paths into their games but the reality is that they don't. Not to the extent of New Vegas and definitely not surpassing it and that retroactively makes it look better and better as time goes by. It's a rare quality in an RPG to give you options outside of being an asshole or the messiah and though I am not blind to their faults it's something that FO 1, 2, and NV delivers on.

Also Arcade Gannon is a total hottie.

And I say this having had lots of fun with FO4. I put in 160 hours into it so far like a madman and I'm still not done with it. The story I made for myself that started off as a lowly Melon farmer is pretty rad but when it's over I'll probably forget it all whereas New Vegas will continue being one of my top 3 favorite games of all time.

Just that Fallout 3 was a cohesive world, that had soul. Yes, it had some flaws, and yes, New Vegas iterated on it and added many more features, however, the world building, and that elusive "soul" were gone.

How Fallout 3 was made - Bethesda liked F1 and 2 so much that they wrote a fan fic, bought the IP, and plugged it into Oblivion's engine.

How New Vegas was made - The devs of F1 and 2 were hired by Bethesda to make a sequel.

It's severely reductionist but it's how I feel.

 

[Dub117]

So New Vegas was my first Fallout game. I loved it and beat it and started it again, then I bought Fallout 3. Could not get into it. I have been playing Fallout 4 on X1 recently, and I like it better than 3 for sure, but New Vegas was still more fun in my opinion. I would like another one like New Vegas. Just my 2 cents.

 

[HK-47]

I think the point he raised is quite fair actually. Outside of Dungeon Siege 3 and South Park which were much simpler all their games were extremely buggy at launch or rushed in some capacity. I get that publishers can put a lot of pressure on an independent developer but looking at their history (AP, KOTOR II, NV, NWN 2 and the growing number of cancelled projects) I think you can clearly see a trend forming that they have development issues with big projects. This doesn't downplay the great mechanics and writing of their games at all but the technical problems aren't always the results of evil publishers.

KotOR 2 was rushed on an even more contracted timeframe where the dev time was cut down mid development. I prefer to look at things on a case by case basis. You can focus on NWN2 or AP if you want but rushed RPGs are always trouble. Just look at the mess Bioware made with DA2. Look at how buggy every Bethesda game is despite 3-4 years of development.

 

[Almighty]

I think the point he raised is quite fair actually. Outside of Dungeon Siege 3 and South Park which were much simpler all their games were extremely buggy at launch or rushed in some capacity. I get that publishers can put a lot of pressure on an independent developer but looking at their history (AP, KOTOR II, NV, NWN 2 and the growing number of cancelled projects) I think you can clearly see a trend forming that they have development issues with big projects. This doesn't downplay the great mechanics and writing of their games at all but the technical problems aren't always the results of evil publishers.

I don't know if I would say fair personally. You can't really slam Obsidian for bugs and not for example hit Bethesda just as hard as well. Unlike Obsidian though Bethesda doesn't even have the whole "evil publishers" to hide behind. The truth is complex RPGs are hard and they are going to be buggy more often then not, but only Obsidian seems to get consistently crucified for it. Or at least more than others seem to.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Can someone explain where the New Vegas fetishism developed? I thought the game was decent, and enjoyed the extra Fallout experience, but I just don't get it. The whole "omg b-b-b-but the dialogue!" is becoming pretty meme-like.

As someone whose first fallout was NV: It's the greater emphasis on a more believable and reactive world. People bring up the dialogue a lot because its one of the more on-the-nose/easy-to-explain ways that New Vegas expresses that emphasis; not just with more, better written, options (and resulting reactions), but ones that respect the way the player builds their character and how they role-play.

Its narrative is also a lot more well suited to a "do what you want" open-world game(i.e. one where the player is more likely to spend most of their time engaging in side content) than the ones in the Bethesda titles.

For long-time Fallout fans, the game falls much more in line with previous titles than 3.

 

[Vamphuntr]

KotOR 2 was rushed on an even more contracted timeframe where the dev time was cut down mid development. I prefer to look at things on a case by case basis. You can focus on NWN2 or AP if you want but rushed RPGs are always trouble. Just look at the mess Bioware made with DA2. Look at how buggy every Bethesda game is despite 3-4 years of development.

I don't think anyone here is disputing the fact Bethesda makes buggy games. The post I replied to was about the guy saying that even with a firm release date Obsidian would ship a buggy broken game and I posted that with their history it wouldn't be surprising. DA2 is actually a good point to raise. It bombed and got critically panned so bad that Bioware learned and actually followed it up with 2 better games. In a sense Obsidian learned too it would seem. Both South Park and DS3 are much simpler and feel more polished. If you always run out of time the solution is to lessen the scope.

I don't know if I would say fair personally. You can't really slam Obsidian for bugs and not for example hit Bethesda just as hard as well. Unlike Obsidian though Bethesda doesn't even have the whole "evil publishers" to hide behind. The truth is complex RPGs are hard and they are going to be buggy more often then not, but only Obsidian seems to get consistently crucified for it. Or at least more than others seem to.

I don't think there is any conspiration . Bethesda is mocked all the time here for making buggy games. Troika was crucified here too. Vampire the Masquerade cannot run without a fan made patch that fixes everything. My point was that I was agreeing with the guy that even with a firm release date it would still be a broken game at launch because of their history. If you agree that Bethesda and their engine are pretty crappy and that the studio behind NV has a history of always running out of time and making buggy games I don't see how you can come to a different conclusion. Their biggest games had the biggest issues. That's pretty much the gist of it I'll leave the mud slinging between the 3 and NV fans to other people.

 

[The Victorian]

I'd love to see Bethesda make a game that cannot be modded in any way. It would have to live or die on its own merits, with none of this handwaving away of its flaws with "The modders will fix it!"

I think it would be a tremendous flop.

 

[The God]

Can someone explain how Fallout 4 is less of an RPG? (haven't played it yet)

 

[nded]

Can someone explain how Fallout 4 is less of an RPG? (haven't played it yet)

Fewer dialog options for starters, maybe even less than in F3. Your responses for most situations usually amount to "Yes (Nice)", "Yes (Mean)", "Not now" or "What?"

 

[Vinterbird]

I'd love to see Bethesda make a game that cannot be modded in any way. It would have to live or die on its own merits, with none of this handwaving away of its flaws with "The modders will fix it!"

I think it would be a tremendous flop.

So the widely popular console versions?

 

[Solid Samus]

I'd love to see Bethesda make a game that cannot be modded in any way. It would have to live or die on its own merits, with none of this handwaving away of its flaws with "The modders will fix it!"

I think it would be a tremendous flop.

show me the posts where people handwave away the game's flaws by saying 'the modders will fix it'

please

i would really like to see some backing for this halfassed narrative that I keep seeing people peddle around here

but man when you're right you're right, I can't imagine a bethesda game that can't be modded seeing any success at all. fallout 3 and new vegas didn't sell well at all on xbox 360 and ps3 where they couldn't be modded, and reviewed very poorly on their own merits as a result of having no mods on day one. and nobody ever even bought those games on pc until they caught wind of mods which singlehandedly propelled these games to beloved multi-million seller franchise status rite

 

[Agremont]

Hopefully but probably not.

 

[Rollo Lawson]

If they do I hope they remove all the bumpers. NV was way too guided

 

[timetokill]

Bethesda isn't gonna want Obsidian clowning on them with a better game yet again

 

[MrCookiepants]

Only reason anyone bought New Vegas is bcuz it was 2 bucks on steam.

Intensely dull game.

 

[True Fire]

Can they just do a comprehensive overhaul of Fallout 4 with better logic, quests, characters, story, etc etc?

 

[HK-47]

Cookiepants makes a good point. I'm glad we got this new insight.

 

[senahorse]

Only reason anyone bought New Vegas is bcuz it was 2 bucks on steam.

Intensely dull game.

Derp, New Vegas is a great game.

 

[Krabboss]

I'd rather they keep doing what they're doing. NV was amazing but I don't think it needs to be reattempted.

From what I understand they've got so many projects on their plate right now that making a new Fallout game would just be impossible anyway.

 

[nded]

Only reason anyone bought New Vegas is bcuz it was 2 bucks on steam.

Intensely dull game.

Says the guy with the Shenmue avatar.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Says the guy with the Shenmue avatar.

At least Shenmue had charm and character.

New Vegas had some funny glitches tho, I guess that's close enough.

 

[nded]

At least Shenmue had charm and character.

New Vegas had some funny glitches tho, I guess that's close enough.

I'm afraid to ask, but do you also think Fallout 3 has charm and character that New Vegas lacks?

 

[Karl Hawk]

Only reason anyone bought New Vegas is bcuz it was 2 bucks on steam.

Intensely dull game.

Welp, pack it up everyone. MrCookiepants has spoken the truth.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

The Fallout we want from Obsidian is one where they get rid of the voiced main character, and I don't know if Bethesda sees the franchise going that way.

 

[KaoteK]

I'd love to see an Obsidian Fallout again.
The more I play 4, the less I like it. The technical issues are one thing (seriously fuck those loading times) but having dealt with buggy games since the 80s, I can live with them.

The lack of role-playing options and branching quests have put me on a real downer about the game however. I'm 40 odd hours in, and it feels like the solution to everything is to shoot it in the face, that's not why I buy these kinds of games.

 

[Yasae]

I don't know if I would say fair personally. You can't really slam Obsidian for bugs and not for example hit Bethesda just as hard as well. Unlike Obsidian though Bethesda doesn't even have the whole "evil publishers" to hide behind. The truth is complex RPGs are hard and they are going to be buggy more often then not, but only Obsidian seems to get consistently crucified for it. Or at least more than others seem to.

They've still got showstopper bugs in both NWN2 and KOTOR 2. In 2015. Bugs so easy to replicate most players would run into them unwittingly. Frankly they're on another plane in terms of bugs.

 

[Gurgelhals]

The lack of role-playing options and branching quests have put me on a real downer about the game however. I'm 40 odd hours in, and it feels like the solution to everything is to shoot it in the face, that's not why I buy these kinds of games.

That's funny, because a few months ago, Toddlers Howard said the following:

"You can avoid [killing] a lot," Howard said. "I can't tell you that you can play the whole game without violence--that's not necessarily a goal of ours--but we want to support different play styles as much as we can."

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

I'd love to see an Obsidian Fallout again.
The more I play 4, the less I like it. The technical issues are one thing (seriously fuck those loading times) but having dealt with buggy games since the 80s, I can live with them.

The lack of role-playing options and branching quests have put me on a real downer about the game however. I'm 40 odd hours in, and it feels like the solution to everything is to shoot it in the face, that's not why I buy these kinds of games.

It is pretty telling that having 10 in charisma only makes most quests different in that you get pay more in the end.

edit: making enemies kill each other at your command is really fun though, but you still have to kill everyone.

 

[Yasae]

It is pretty telling that having 10 in charisma only makes most quests different in that you get pay more in the end.

How the mighty have fallen.

 

[HK-47]

They've still got showstopper bugs in both NWN2 and KOTOR 2. In 2015. Bugs so easy to replicate most players would run into them unwittingly. Frankly they're on another plane in terms of bugs.

Nah I remember the cries about memory leaks and other bullshit in the console versions of games like F3 and Skyrim. And Bethesda at least controls their own QA.

 

[Ushay]

Honestly I'd love for Obsidian to take on a bigger game in a new franchise, but it would need to be an exclusive for that kind of funding to go through.

 

[Yasae]

Nah I remember the cries about memory leaks and other bullshit in the console versions of games like F3 and Skyrim. And Bethesda at least controls their own QA.

Mm hmm. Hope everyone's careful once they reach Atris' den, though. Hope they've got saves for miles.

I'd list both devs as among the worst in terms of bugs, above Ubisoft.

 

[JeffZero]

I really doubt they will. One instance does not a pattern make.

 

[KaoteK]

That's funny, because a few months ago, Toddlers Howard said the following:

"You can avoid [killing] a lot," Howard said. "I can't tell you that you can play the whole game without violence--that's not necessarily a goal of ours--but we want to support different play styles as much as we can."

Which begs the question, what the fuck happened?

...or was it just porky pies?

 

[sniffy]

I don't think they will and it's a shame. Fallout 4 is a "fun game" but it's a colossal disappointment, both as a Fallout game and an RPG. Bethesda are heading in a direction that is very not-Fallout.

 

[Diprosalic]

Just that Fallout 3 was a cohesive world, that had soul.

i truly cannot believe that anybody thinks that. seriously, i mean you obviously do but to me that's like saying 1+1 = -3

it's so absurd.

 

[firehawk12]

I never thought I'd see a Bethesda apologist in the context of an Obsidian thread. Particularly when a design decision for Fallout 4 was the introduction of the dialog wheel, thereby removing some of the RPG-ness from the game.

They've still got showstopper bugs in both NWN2 and KOTOR 2. In 2015. Bugs so easy to replicate most players would run into them unwittingly. Frankly they're on another plane in terms of bugs.

The problem is that they've built a lot of their games on other people's tech. I assume that there are just things that their engineers can't account for since they didn't write the underlying code.

 

[Creaking]

I really hope so, but I figure we won't know until the E3 after Fallout 4's last DLC releases, if then.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I never thought I'd see a Bethesda apologist in the context of an Obsidian thread. Particularly when a design decision for Fallout 4 was the introduction of the dialog wheel, thereby removing some of the RPG-ness from the game.

Eh, don't know about that. No reason they couldn't have made the dialog wheel work, it's fine in ME.

No idea if Obsidian will work on the series again, but it would be nice. I think they'd have to work with Fallout 4's base though i.e. I doubt Bethesda would let them put the skills back in.

 

[firehawk12]

Eh, don't know about that. No reason they couldn't have made the dialog wheel work, it's fine in ME.

When people don't even know the consequences of their choices, you know the wheel is poorly designed.

No idea if Obsidian will work on the series again, but it would be nice. I think they'd have to work with Fallout 4's base though i.e. I doubt Bethesda would let them put the skills back in.

I think they've just scaled down so much that I don't know if this is even in the cards. Ubisoft didn't even tap them to make the sequel to the South Park game, and that is comparatively simple compared to Fallout.
They seem bound to be a company that moves from Kickstarter to Kickstarter at this point, perhaps like Larian with their games.

 

[JeffZero]

Yeah, Mass Effect's wheel is fine. Fallout 4's is awful.

 

[tokkun]

i truly cannot believe that anybody thinks that. seriously, i mean you obviously do but to me that's like saying 1+1 = -3

it's so absurd.

I completely agree with the other poster that the Capital Wasteland had a more cohesive feel. From the constant green haze to the garbage-strewn rubble of familiar monuments to the copious irradiation to the fact that nearly every creature you encountered was psychotic, that game projected this isolated, choking, hopeless vision of a post-apocalyptic wasteland. There is a real terroir to Fallout 3.

In New Vegas, the Mojave feels more like a blank tableau. In a sense, that may serve the game's purpose well in that it can demonstrate the differences between the factions, from the modern and orderly NCR territory to the gaudy capitalism of New Vegas itself to the gladiatorial Legion encampments. However what is lost is that there is really no sense of place or character to the setting.

Fallout 3 felt like a game that really could only make sense in its nuclear post-apocalyptic setting. The setting was the soul of the game. With New Vegas, I feel like you could take the essential pieces of that game and rewrite them for a fantasy or space setting without losing much.

 

[Dick Justice]

They've still got showstopper bugs in both NWN2 and KOTOR 2. In 2015. Bugs so easy to replicate most players would run into them unwittingly. Frankly they're on another plane in terms of bugs.

Did these games have framerate drops to 0fps?

When people don't even know the consequences of their choices, you know the wheel is poorly designed.

When you use the full dialogue mod, it becomes obvious that they used shortened lines to hide the fact that there's not much difference to what you say for the most part.

 

[lazygecko]

I completely agree with the other poster that the Capital Wasteland had a more cohesive feel. From the constant green haze to the garbage-strewn rubble of familiar monuments to the copious irradiation to the fact that nearly every creature you encountered was psychotic, that game projected this isolated, choking, hopeless vision of a post-apocalyptic wasteland. There is a real terroir to Fallout 3.

In New Vegas, the Mojave feels more like a blank tableau. In a sense, that may serve the game's purpose well in that it can demonstrate the differences between the factions, from the modern and orderly NCR territory to the gaudy capitalism of New Vegas itself to the gladiatorial Legion encampments. However what is lost is that there is really no sense of place or character to the setting.

Fallout 3 felt like a game that really could only make sense in its nuclear post-apocalyptic setting. The setting was the soul of the game. With New Vegas, I feel like you could take the essential pieces of that game and rewrite them for a fantasy or space setting without losing much.

Bethesda wants to condense their worldbuilding into one smaller region, which makes it easier to portray as "cohesive". That's not really how the previous games worked though, which were set in much larger chunks of California. Particularly in Fallout 2 you had a wide variety of settings from the tribes of the northern coast, to the idyllic isolated farm community of Modoc, the orderly but dystopian Vault City, the densely urban and crime-ridden New Reno, the San Francisco inherited by Chinese refugees, and the re-modernized democratically developed NCR. That kind of diversity is what they wanted to re-capture in New Vegas, but it does inevitably feel more contrived when trapped by the ultra-compressed nature of seamless open world design Bethesda moved the franchise towards.

 

[Yabberwocky]

I think there is a reasonable chance of Obsidian doing another Fallout, if the timing works out. (Especially after all the money Fallout 4 just made!) As people have said, Obsidian and Bethesda keep an open communication between them, and both sides seem open to another collaboration as of fairly recently.

I do understand that whatever Obsidian create next in the Fallout universe will be quite different to New Vegas, especially with so much of the original team gone. I'd still love to see what they'd do regardless, especially about breathing a bit of life into the new dialogue system. I've watched quite a few of Jon's (Many a True Nerd) incredible Fallout runs, but I only got around to watching his New Vegas No Kill run recently. I'm having a great time with Fallout 4, but watching the No Kill run simultaneously... goddamn, is the difference night and day. I've played NV quite a few times, and yet there's still options and ways to complete quests that I've never seen before. I can never get over the depth of the damn game.

I always find the FO3 vs NV discussions interesting, too. Like a lot of newcomers, I played FO3 -> NV, with no prior attachment to the franchise. When I think of FO3, I can remember all the incredible set-pieces, but all the quests and characters blur together outside of Tenpenny Tower. New Vegas has considerably less memorable set-pieces (outside of its incredible DLC), but the quests/characters/dialogue made such an impression that it quickly became one of my favourite games. I'll be curious to see where FO4 falls for me by the end of it, as I feel like a lot of its set-pieces blur together, too. While the Commonwealth feels less memorable than the Capital Wasteland, the experiences re: combat have been the most unique and harrowing out of all the games. While the story isn't great - and goddamn that new bloody dialogue system - I still do feel more engaged than I did in FO3. FO4 is a fascinating mixed bag!

 

[rjinaz]

show me the posts where people handwave away the game's flaws by saying 'the modders will fix it'

please

i would really like to see some backing for this halfassed narrative that I keep seeing people peddle around here

but man when you're right you're right, I can't imagine a bethesda game that can't be modded seeing any success at all. fallout 3 and new vegas didn't sell well at all on xbox 360 and ps3 where they couldn't be modded, and reviewed very poorly on their own merits as a result of having no mods on day one. and nobody ever even bought those games on pc until they caught wind of mods which singlehandedly propelled these games to beloved multi-million seller franchise status rite

Yeah the only people I have seen say that are the people that already think the game is shit until it is modded. "I'll just wait until next year when the game is modded to actually be good". etc.