Just the usual Bethesda hype. See: radiant AI, the 200 endings in Fallout 3, etc.
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Will Obsidian do a new Fallout?
- Thread starter Calderc
- Start date
Just the usual Bethesda hype. See: radiant AI, the 200 endings in Fallout 3, etc.
CrichtonKicks
Member
It's not just here. Here is a great writeup from Eurogamer from earlier in the year that talks about why NV is better:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-07-12-the-murky-genius-of-fallout-new-vegas
It's already been posted but clearly it needs to be posted again, specifically this part:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvwlt4FqmS0&t=10m13s
Yeah REAL cohesive world in 3....
God yes. The choices, the encouragement to explore your options, the incentivise to specialise in certain skills that cater to your preferred playstyle, the different paths things may take depending on your actions, this is the Fallout RPG that I want. Not a glorified shooter with some Mass Effect-esque shallow dialogue options.
I've seen that video before. If that is your argument, it sounds like your complaint is about realism rather than cohesiveness.
Personally I think that focusing on mundane details like what the NPCs are eating in a universe that is already filled with such absurdity as personal nuclear bomb launchers, a mysterious man in a trenchcoat randomly materializing out of nowhere to help you in fights, or the ability to increase your strength by finding a bobblehead is a self-defeating attitude to take, but to each their own. I'd take the advice of the MST3K theme song and really just relax. I will say that I liked the hardcore mode in New Vegas a lot, as I thought that the need to care about getting dehydrated was probably the best thematic element for a game set in the desert.
If I were to criticize the cohesiveness of the Capitol Wasteland's atmosphere, I would go with the Antagonist mission, which sticks out in a game that is otherwise fairly devoid of the comedic relief of other entries. But there aren't enough things like that to spoil the overall aesthetic for a game of this size.
Silent Chief
Member
I found no way to complete The Brotherhood quest without blowing everybody up.
The game insisted I blew the HQ and I did, even though these were the only guys who weren't complete assholes. Never felt like making friends with the rad scorpions neither.
Complete opposite for me. I didn't like the companions in New Vegas. The story was about somebody trying to get me kill and it was either a dead guy or a computer who was ruling New Vega but for some reason the game would end with a battle on the Hoover Dam. I wish I could just have done a no one left standing run.
The dog in New Vegas was an upgrade. I'll grant you that much.
Conspiracy? No, A case of confirmation bias though? Probably.
My point was that complex RPG = buggy. So saying that all signs point to this RPG being buggy is about the same to me as saying the sun will come up tomorrow. Obsidian or no Obsidian that big open world RPG is going to be buggy.
I also think that without more info(that we will probably never get) putting every game cancelled mostly on Obsidian is being a little more then unfair.
Hah, I just finished the game and this keeps being the case. (second-to-last mission spoilers)
Father: "Hey Player, what do you think of The Railroad?"
Me: "They're allies. They mean no harm."
Father: "Well, that's too bad because you still need to kill them all."
Me: "They're allies. They mean no harm."
Father: "Well, that's too bad because you still need to kill them all."
KOTOR 2's frame rate on the original Xbox was absolutely awful from what I remember.
The Victorian
Neo Member
This didn't bother me nearly as much as how, despite setting the game on the east coast of the United States, Bethesda decided to reuse the exact same factions as in the first two Fallout games. They had an the opportunity to bring something new to the franchise, and they buggered it up.
I'm really quite puzzled when people say that FO3 was "revolutionary." Did they not play Oblivion and realise that FO3 is the exact same type game, just with guns and a post-apocalyptic setting?
Fallout should never be set in a non-American country.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Fallout 3 was nothing like Oblivion with guns. Even thought thats what many of us described it as before we played it, and even though it shares the same engine.
The games feel nothing alike aside from them both being Bethesda games.
Fallout 3 felt like a blast of fresh air.
EmCeeGramr
Member
The "cohesiveness" of Fallout 3 falls apart for me because it's such an overwhelmingly awful place to live. Why would anyone stay here? Why are we fighting for this toxic shitpile of land? The Tenpenny residents are so proud about living in a run down crumbling tower, Megaton folks live around a live nuclear bomb, Rivet City is snapped in half and floating in a poison river. Big Town is filled with fools living within a few minutes of Super Mutants as the crow flies. There's mounds of bags of body parts because the Mutants apparently ate 99% of the population.
Before the release I was feeling confident that Bethesda were versatile enough to make it stand out from The Elder Scrolls. But when I saw the first post-E3 videos and shortly after played it myself, sure enough it was Oblivion with guns. It had the same super floaty movement as Oblivion, which by 2008 standards were woefully archaic when compared to its FPS contemporaries it was clearly seeking to emulate. The same poorly conceived character animations and just awkwardly standing still during conversations was still there as well. But more importantly than that it had the same overly dense and compressed potato land/theme park open world design, which is what hurt the most for me coming from the earlier games' excellent large scale worldbuilding and wasteland atmosphere. It would have served them a lot better to retain the world design of the original titles, if they really wanted to set it apart from Oblivion.
You might be pleased to know that Bethesda's Pete Hines made a similar remark about not wanting to discuss "how realistic things are in an alternate universe post-apoc game w/ talking mutants and ghouls", but both you and him are entirely incorrect.
A fictional world doesn't just mean you can do whatever you want. It is bound by a set of rules and internal logic. The setting for Lord of the Rings, Middle-earth, is a fantasy one, and while you can suspend your disbelief with Orcs and Elves, you can't do so if you were to suddenly see Optimus Prime come to aid Gondor. This is a fundamental of writing fiction. If you're interested in more detailed explanation, look up some of the terms Tolkien coined such as Secondary world and Secondary belief.
AlimNassor
Banned
Fallout 3s world was unbelievable. how can anyone survive in so such an inhospitable wasteland? At least in fo4 the Commonwealth has farms, it has clean water and free trade between towns. people aren't using pre-war tech, they made their own tech.
You are describing the engine. NOT the actual gameplay.
Apples and fucking oranges. Not putting farms in Fallout 3 is leagues different than jamming alien fucking robots into Middle Earth.
BoosterDuck
Banned
B-b-but Raul ;_;
I understand that you may not have liked things being different from the previous games, but I'm not sure how that is related to what I was saying.
That is quite a straw man you have constructed. Here I was talking about how it did not bother me that the game does not show you where food comes from and suddenly you acting as if I said that there should be no rules in fiction and are talking about giant robots in Lord of the Rings.
No, they are not, one is simply an example that is overstated to make it clear and evident.
I'll take an excerpt from a previous post of mine in this very thread:
We are talking about the same logical and cohesive world that includes a city built around a nuclear bomb, a town run by children, a society of vampires, invincible NPCs, lack of agriculture or means of survival for its inhabitants, that inescapable moment you realize 200 years after the bombs fell isn't a misprint, and "I don't want to rob you of your destiny"? The numerous alterations to the established lore including Super Mutants, the Brotherhood of Steel turned into an order of holy-knights, protectors of civilization, and Jet. The world is filled like a theme park would be, nothing but "Wouldn't it be cool if..." motivation for design decisions, and as a result every settlement and area is entirely disconnected from the rest of the world, existing in their own bubble of reality. These qualities do not support world-building.
When things like these occur, things which break the world's internal logic and consistency, we in turn break our suspension of disbelief. It's this quality to detail in creating fictional worlds that separates those that feel like believable, living worlds, open to scrutiny and inspection, from those which are merely a backdrop, some more interesting than others, to play in.
My response was directed towards:
My response stands. If you're only talking about the food, then you're just limiting the extent to which you want to take you argument, and perhaps I shouldn't have assumed you were speaking generally, but saying the world shouldn't focus on mundane details because the world is already absurd in its fiction is a flawed premise regardless of whether you want to apply it to food or other matters. Since you've clearly specified food only, then, well, my response is mostly the same, except the quote from Pete Hines.
Alandrus Sun
Banned
You stated that you weren't bothered by the lack of realism, specifically food sources, in Bethesda Fallout titles, stating that the world was already absurd. Thus, you made it sound as if you are not bothered by realism or internal consistency in a fictional world.
The video I was asked to respond to was talking specifically about food. The point I was making was not that there is no value in realism, but rather that if absolute realism is your concern, then there are far more low-hanging fruit to mention before you get to the lack of farmland around Megaton and complaints that people who only ate molerat steaks and fancy lad snack cakes would be suffering from scurvy.
The point I was making was that the essence of New Vegas did not require a post-nuclear war apocalyptic setting. The game's conceit is that the Mojave was mostly spared from the nuclear devastation, right?
Just as an example, if you take a look at the setting of the anime Legend of Galactic Heroes, it actually has quite a lot in common with the factions of New Vegas: A war between a bureaucratic republic and a totalitarian society modeled after a former war-like empire, with an independent, capitalistic state caught in the middle.
You could make a game with the same story in a fantasy setting. The details would not be identical, but you could capture the gist of it. I don't think that would work for F3 because it relies so heavily on the image of familiar locations just completely turned to hell.
Realism and internal consistency are not the same thing. Let me also take a moment to mention that it is not just a matter of realism, but also of literalism. Just because the game does not show you farms does not mean it is imagining a world without farms. There are a lot of things that are not presented literally in a game world: passage of time, the distance between locations, the size and population of cities, and so forth. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask players to use their imagination and allow for some artistic license when it comes to things like where food is coming from or where people are going to the bathroom.
EchoChamber
Member
Bethesda fallout is the fallout we deserve, but not the fallout we need 
His Majesty
Banned
Bethesda's vision is that of a fourties pre-war America and extrapolating that culture to the moment right after the bombs hit. Sadly for Bethesda such a scenario is too unrealistic (even for their standards) and so they have to settle for 200 years. In which absolutely nothing has happened. In Fallout 4 they literally freeze your character for 200 years to let him loose in the wasteland.
That would be fine if you were a Chinese agent spying in America two weeks after the bombs dropped. Not 200 years after the events. That's one of the main differences between F3 and FNV,. In New Vegas society is moving forward. People have rebuilt towns, agriculture is thriving and there is a need for comfort. New factions have risen and are looking to recolonize part of America. Which is what the Fallout series is all about after all.
That would be fine if you were a Chinese agent spying in America two weeks after the bombs dropped. Not 200 years after the events. That's one of the main differences between F3 and FNV,. In New Vegas society is moving forward. People have rebuilt towns, agriculture is thriving and there is a need for comfort. New factions have risen and are looking to recolonize part of America. Which is what the Fallout series is all about after all.
Dangoesforth
Member
An Obsidian story and writing with BGS world would be an excellent mix.
I loved NV for its story and choices were brilliant, but the world was bland and disconnected, whilst BGS know how to make an excellent world but are lacking on the story front.
I loved NV for its story and choices were brilliant, but the world was bland and disconnected, whilst BGS know how to make an excellent world but are lacking on the story front.
Red Blaster
Member
fallout 3 and 4 have the exact opposite of 'cohesive' worlds
Irobot82
Member
Yeah In-Exile has leased out the tech and their upcoming game Torment is turned based so it should be just at easy to do TB as RTCwP in their Unity tech.
maquiladora
Member
Yes. Please.
KaoteK
Member
That's not at all encouraging :/
Alandrus Sun
Banned
Internal consistency is a part of making a fictional world feel real and no the player shouldn't be asked to suspend their disbelief to reconcile gaps in logic especially when a game such as NV took time to show these things and create a logical world. Why are the stands in Diamond City still full of empty metal seats? Now, if I were deciding to build a town inside of a baseball stadium the first thing I would do is remove all those seats and melt down the metal to build houses and other objects. But nope, in Bethesda's world 200 years of progress means that some people decided to build a few huts and stands in the middle of the field. And, they never attempted to expand their sphere of influence. This is on top of the lack of appropriate amount of agriculture and general supplies needed to keep such a town alive.
You may think that these small things are unimportant but for someone who enjoys role-playing in a fictional world they are essential to my enjoyment. In Mass Effect the attention to detail is so great that you can learn why it seems to look as though Earth like plants are growing on the Presidium of the Citadel. A "lazy" developer wouldn't be asked and would simply tell you to suspend your disbelief as you don't expect them to create a bunch of new plant assets for one small area of the game, a good developer finds a way to incorporate these limitations into the game's fictional lore. Oh and just to keep on Mass Effect for a bit they actually cared to make the warning signs in different languages depending on whether you were on a Human colony or an alien colony, that is attention to detail. When I have to poke and scratch around hard to find any holes in logic with a fictional universe then a developer/writer has done their job right.
Its bizarre how people try to push this idea that nothing has happened since the bombs hit. In the Commonwealth and the Capital Wasteland there are cities, small settlements and farms (many more in Fallout 4 than NV). In the larger settlements there are options for leisure and luxury. Mercenary groups have been established, there are different raider groups, and several established factions vying for power. Something like Diamond City isn't feasible for a 50 year period either.
The only thing missing is a form of government and linked communities. This couldn't have happened in DC because of the lack of population and desolation, and in the Commonwealth an attempt to unify was sabotaged by the Institute. Even so, what you do with settlement building does create links between communities and rebuilds society.
witchedwiz
Member
I'd like to smack those in the face..
There's taste and taste but cmon..
If someone likes wrpg, he can only Praise fallout nv..
Sigh
After 200 years are we really expecting people to live in ruins? Or Shanty towns? Or live in ruined houses with garbage strewn all over the place?
Diamond city, for all intents and purposes, is a slum.
Fallout NewNewVegas~
I wish they would, but they probably won't.
I don't want to dwell on all the problems I had with F4, but honestly, the huge quality gap between that game and Fallout NV is clear as day.
I wish they would, but they probably won't.
reminded me of this picture someone posted in the OT some time ago, which is quite accurate.
I don't want to dwell on all the problems I had with F4, but honestly, the huge quality gap between that game and Fallout NV is clear as day.
Hardly different to Vegas. Plenty of people living in dilapidated buildings and corrugated iron shacks for a city that wasn't even nuked.
I'm still trying to figure out why no one lives in Concord. Even the reason why people haven't managed to make an actual community out of the surrounding buildings of the stadium feels like a very flimsy "We couldn't make an actual city".
Goodneighbor in general is just a lot better than Diamond City to be honest.
For sure, and you'll not find disagreement from anybody who cares about this kind of stuff. It too leans into this, but absolutely not to the degree of 3&4. I mean people in those games built absolutely ridiculous settlements and go out of their way to live in those ridiculous places.
Yeah. There are plenty of standing brick buildings in the game, instead people go to live inside their corrugated iron shacks in Diamond City. Heck, even in the dark ages people managed to build more resilient structures.
Look at the Steam user score between F3:GOTY and NV:GOTY. This site isn't some crazy outlier in opinion.
Living around a nuke is definitely questionable but they had a community building around the church of Atom. Rivet City and Diamond City are easily defensible locations. Concord is pretty open, and the boarded up doors might mean people did attempt to live there before.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
Yes, it really should be. All four of the core games have done the "50s-inspired America" thing, it's getting old. Not to mention we've been seeing roughly the same enemies, factions, weapons, and bombed-out locales from Fallout 1 to Fallout 4.
I'm sick to death of shanty towns, raiders, the Brotherhood of Steel, Deathclaws and Radscorpions. I want to see totally new settings with vastly different flora and fauna. I want a Fallout game that's totally unpredictable, not just the fifth rehash of the same tired 20-year-old ideas.
EmCeeGramr
Member
I mean... was Rivet City really defensible? It was a rusty bucket that was split open to be exposed to a radioactive river, and the main threat were mutants heavily armed with explosives and guns practically 30 seconds away who aren't harmed by radiation.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Sounds more like you want a completely different post-apocalyptic game rather than a new Fallout game.
New Vegas was the only game that felt fresh. The faded glory of the strip had a Lynchian timeless quality to it. A lot of the game felt dreamlike and surreal, and you always got the sense that the world existed before and after the player. F3 and F4 gives the sense that the world is in service of the player, that it exists for us to explore.
There was something magical about New Vegas. The choice of music serviced the mood and amosphere, not slapping you over the head with Cold War scares and references of atom bombs. Settlements actually looked and feeled believable, with Bethesda's ramshackle huts few and far between. Characters in the Strip looked and talked the way they did because their only knowledge of the old world was through the glamour and glitz of a fake entertainment industry. A 200 year old game of chinese whispers through survival and the desire to instill a sense of theatre and movie magic to the wasteland. Almost every quest has nods to golden age cinema, romanticised ideals and larger-than-life characters. All this works because it's set against the harsh realities of the wasteland, yet everyone is in on it. It's this desire to escape the horrors of the world in some way that gives the world it's soul and character, making it feel believable it's all its threatrics.
There was something magical about New Vegas. The choice of music serviced the mood and amosphere, not slapping you over the head with Cold War scares and references of atom bombs. Settlements actually looked and feeled believable, with Bethesda's ramshackle huts few and far between. Characters in the Strip looked and talked the way they did because their only knowledge of the old world was through the glamour and glitz of a fake entertainment industry. A 200 year old game of chinese whispers through survival and the desire to instill a sense of theatre and movie magic to the wasteland. Almost every quest has nods to golden age cinema, romanticised ideals and larger-than-life characters. All this works because it's set against the harsh realities of the wasteland, yet everyone is in on it. It's this desire to escape the horrors of the world in some way that gives the world it's soul and character, making it feel believable it's all its threatrics.
Chuckwagon
Banned
That's a damn good idea.
Easton Dark
Member
I mean, the only entrance to an armor-plated ship being a retractable bridge seems pretty defensible.