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[entremet]

The solution is simple... Everyone should just ignore all marketing. All of it.

That's practically impossible.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

That's practically impossible.

It's literally impossible. Even if you are hyper-aware and critical of marketing and consider how it is impacting you and your worldview on a constant minute-by-minute basis, that's the best you can so. You can't ignore something that makes up such a huge part of your culture.

 

[davepoobond]

The solution is simple... Everyone should just ignore all marketing. All of it.

then how would you know what games exist

 

[Tapejara]

Wow, the ads they showed were pretty gross. I'm glad we're at least seeing some change in video game marketing (like that Black Ops 3 live action trailer).

 

[Calabi]

But surely advertising doesn't work though?

But seriously can advertising really account for all of it, I think something else is going on.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

I didn't know that video games were originally in the electronics sections of stores.

Interesting.

I'm a NES baby, so I always associated games with toys as well growing up.

They aren't?

 

[Quonny]

Incoming downvotes.

 

[JoseLopez]

It's getting better at least from the big pubs like Sony, ms, Activision, etc.

 

[entremet]

They aren't?

This was back in the heyday of JCPenney and Sears.

 

[BocoDragon]

It was pretty obvious it was marketing when the Nintendo DS turned it all around and now an entire generation of girls plays games.

 

[Sesha]

This Adam guy looks like a cartoon character.

Anyway, this was neat, but it's basically just the Polygon article about the same topic boiled down into a 4-minute video. It's probably helpful for the "tl;dr" people. Then again, looking at the amount of dislikes, maybe not.

Incoming downvotes.

They're already there (517 likes and 182 dislikes).

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

It's getting better at least from the big pubs like Sony, ms, Activision, etc.

Let's not kid ourselves, Microsoft is probably the one still going after that male DudeBro demographic. There console still favors shooters and racing games compare to the diverse selection Sony and Nintendo are offering. The only difference is that girls can now be DudeBros to.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Let's not kid ourselves, Microsoft is probably the one still going after that male DudeBro demographic. There console still favors shooters and racing games compare to the diverse selection Sony and Nintendo are offering. The only difference is that girls can now be DudeBros to.

ChickBros? Do we have a term for the demo they're trying to hit there?

 

[Coffee Dog]

ChickBros? Do we have a term for the demo they're trying to hit there?

They're still Dudebros. They play COD, Madden, Destiny, AssCreed, etc.

 

[entremet]

It was pretty obvious it was marketing when the Nintendo DS turned it all around and now an entire generation of girls plays games.

Yeah, the Wii/DS era was some genius marketing.

 

[MrCunningham]

It's so true that when you look at games before and after the 1983 crash, the games that became before were more aimed at adults. The original Pong was test marketed in bars. But it was also marketed as a things for couples to do. Home consoles were aimed more at the family too and not just children. Nintendo included a robot with their consoles to fool North American retails into thinking that this was a machine for children.

This was back in the heyday of JCPenny and Sears.

Sears had their own version of the Atari 2600 called the Sears Tele-Games system. It was just a re branded Atari 2600.

Yeah, the Wii/DS era was some genius marketing.

I think the original GameBoy was a breakthrough as well with Tetris being the pack in game. It was Nintendo's attempt to reach out to a larger market beyond children.

 

[ryseing]

To be fair, phone games are different from console games. I know plenty of people who play Candy Crush or whatever but refuse to touch console games for the reason of being "too complicated", guy and girl alike.

Anecdotes and all, but it makes sense.

 

[Balb]

Let's not kid ourselves, Microsoft is probably the one still going after that male DudeBro demographic. There console still favors shooters and racing games compare to the diverse selection Sony and Nintendo are offering. The only difference is that girls can now be DudeBros to.

I don't see how Sony's strategy is any different from Microsoft's.

 

[ByWatterson]

This is an interesting video, but I think there are absolutely cultural differences to which the marketing responded. I have not seen any citation whatsoever for the notion that Nintendo had to market to one or the other - why couldn't they have placed the games in both boys and girls sections, similar to bikes, which, colors aside, are marketed to both.

Moreover, this does not answer the question regarding why men tend to like competitive things more than women. Sports and gambling for instance, while by no means exclusive to men, draw in more hardcore male fans than women - which is why you see the NFL going after the female market hard in the last few years (that is, they already have men in the bag).

So, yes, it would be great for game companies to continue this slow evolution away from a male-only culture, if only to tap that huge AAA market out there that currently isn't (women), but I don't think it's fair to say this culture exists solely as a result of marketing.

Bottom line: Marketing responds to trends as much as, if not more than, it starts them.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

If that Console Wars movie ever gets made this almost has to be a topic addressed in the movie. Sega took Nintendo's marketing and gave it an overdose.

ChickBros? Do we have a term for the demo they're trying to hit there?

Alpha Females?

Yeah, the Wii/DS era was some genius marketing.

It's interesting looking back at that era now understanding what Nintendo was trying to do and to see how the rest of the market completely fumbled and gave up.

 

[entremet]

I don't see how Sony's strategy is any different from Microsoft's.

Yep. I really don't get that argument. Although for 3 out of 4 generations, including this one, they've been market leaders, and as such their consoles tend to have an overflow effect on other demographics.

But both Sony/MS have focused on young males with disposable income.

Sony actually doubled down on MS winning strategy from last generation, while MS tried going the opposite direction with Kinect 1/2.

 

[ByWatterson]

I also completely reject the video's argument that "games are games."

No, they're not. Some are immersive experiences to which males seem to gravitate (men more than women fancy themselves heroes and day-savers), and others are electronic parlor games that are more akin to the Pongs and Pacmans that women enjoyed in an earlier era, and enjoy today.

The AAA market CAN grow to include more women, but let's not pretend that the evidence does NOT indicate that men and women seem to like very, very different kinds of games.

They do, even though other media, like comic book movies and male-centric television shows, seem to perform very well with women. Putting yourself in the role of the day-saving hero is a prototypical male fantasy.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I don't see how Sony's strategy is any different from Microsoft's.

Yep. I really don't get that argument. Although for 3 out of 4 generations, including this one, they've been market leaders, and as such their consoles tend to have an overflow effect on other demographics.

But both Sony/MS have focused on young males with disposable income.

Sony actually doubled down on MS winning strategy from last generation, while MS tried going the opposite direction with Kinect 1/2.

I see the difference in terms of the type of games they are offering. Sony likes to experiment and do different things that honestly transcend gaming. Sony alone is willing to give indies a big push for diverse games while Microsoft continues to have a rocky relationship with them. At a glance I see Sony having more games a female gamer would be more interested in then another Halo, Gears, and Forza.

 

[zelas]

Thanks Nintendo.

 

[Oersted]

Wow, the ads they showed were pretty gross. I'm glad we're at least seeing some change in video game marketing (like that Black Ops 3 live action trailer).

Its quite sad that "hey look, women can play videogames too" still works as a surprise stinger. But yeah, agree.

 

[JoseLopez]

Let's not kid ourselves, Microsoft is probably the one still going after that male DudeBro demographic. There console still favors shooters and racing games compare to the diverse selection Sony and Nintendo are offering. The only difference is that girls can now be DudeBros to.

? So liking shooters makes you a dudebro? Considering halo and gears both have powerful female characters idk what your getting at.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I also completely reject the video's argument that "games are games."

No, they're not. Some are immersive experiences to which males seem to gravitate (men more than women fancy themselves heroes and day-savers), and others are electronic parlor games that are more akin to the Pongs and Pacmans

These are semantics.

let's not pretend that the evidence does NOT indicate that men and women seem to like very, very different kinds of games.

And? What does that have to do with anything?

Putting yourself in the role of the day-saving hero is a prototypical male fantasy.

Why?

You yourself state that the games industry can grow to include women, so what exactly are you taking issue with here? What would "games for women that are not parlor games" look like, exactly, in your eyes? Because you made it very clear in your thesis that you think male and female games should be separate. Which is incredibly close to "women shouldn't play the types of things I like".

 

[Shane]

I did a naughty and started to read the YouTube comments. Crikey.

Some are immersive experiences to which males seem to gravitate (men more than women fancy themselves heroes and day-savers),

Immersive does not mean just saving the day. And I hate the use of immersive. Too 'PR'. Videogames aren't a liquid. But I'm being a little pedantic.
Question: If you truly believe that one whole gender likes being a hero more than the other, than why is that?

 

[TheSpoiler]

It was nice having promotional stuff use the girl characters, like for Tearaway and Until Dawn. Temco Koei regularly features characters that are girls on their Twitter, and even promoted such a fact for Nobunaga's Ambition.

But damn, that stuff was all male focused back in the day. Magazine ads were straight up terrible.

 

[JoseLopez]

Also i've met the most amount of women playing shooters so anecdotal but yeah

 

[dimb]

This entire theory supposes that the only video game market is the American one.

 

[Rhanitan]

I also completely reject the video's argument that "games are games."

No, they're not. Some are immersive experiences to which males seem to gravitate (men more than women fancy themselves heroes and day-savers), and others are electronic parlor games that are more akin to the Pongs and Pacmans that women enjoyed in an earlier era, and enjoy today.

The AAA market CAN grow to include more women, but let's not pretend that the evidence does NOT indicate that men and women seem to like very, very different kinds of games.

They do, even though other media, like comic book movies and male-centric television shows, seem to perform very well with women. Putting yourself in the role of the day-saving hero is a prototypical male fantasy.

I hope you don't actually believe that gender determines this kind of stuff. Society perpetuating this kind of stuff is what causes these problems in the first place. The only thing your evidence proves is that marketing is very effective.

 

[Oersted]

I see the difference in terms of the type of games they are offering. Sony likes to experiment and do different things that honestly transcend gaming. Sony alone is willing to give indies a big push for diverse games while Microsoft continues to have a rocky relationship with them. At a glance I see Sony having more games a female gamer would be more interested in then another Halo, Gears, and Forza.

Kinect did arguably far more to diversify the audience and the indie push on consoles started on Xbox 360. Mind you, Sony improved massively.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

? So liking shooters makes you a dudebro? Considering halo and gears both have powerful female characters idk what your getting at.

It's more that the marketing are showing off those games as very Bro attitude then what the game and the audience that plays them actually are.

Kinect did arguably far more to diversify the audience and the indie push on consoles started on Xbox 360. Mind you, Sony improved massively.

True, I didn't think about the Kinect.

 

[grumble]

This Adam guy looks like a cartoon character.

Anyway, this was neat, but it's basically just the Polygon article about the same topic boiled down into a 4-minute video. It's probably helpful for the "tl;dr" people. Then again, looking at the amount of dislikes, maybe not.



They're already there (517 likes and 182 dislikes).

It's being down voted by gamergaters

 

[Edsmells12345]

I'm really surprised by how gross 90s Nintendo commercials could be.

Holy Shit. I remember that ad as a kid and getting really jazzed by the music but do NOT remember that 'play like one'.

Seems so stupid because without the sexist part at the end, it's a really fucking cool ad for an 8 year old to see.

Also stay out of the YouTube comments people.

 

[ByWatterson]

I hope you don't actually believe that gender determines this kind of stuff. Society perpetuating this kind of stuff is what causes these problems in the first place. The only thing your evidence proves is that marketing is very effective.

Gender alone, no. Which is why I described this as "cultural" differences in my first post. Gender roles, which are defined more broadly by a society, absolutely play into this. While there's no reason gender should determine which games are enjoyed by which sex, it's undeniable that men are far more willing to shell out lots of money for competitive pursuits like games, sports, and gambling, more than women.

My point isn't that "This is how men and women 'are,'", but rather, I'm guessing Nintendo and other game companies response to market reality more than they create it.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

It's being down voted by gamergaters

Which is sad because it's not related to GamerGate in any way. It's just talking about the gender gap.

I'm guessing Nintendo and other game companies response to market reality more than they create it.

It seems to me that you pretty much ARE saying "this is how genders are". You're just trying to justify that line of thought.

 

[The Technomancer]

Good piece. It reminds me of that great Polygon article about the same thing

 

[ByWatterson]

Question: If you truly believe that one whole gender likes being a hero more than the other, than why is that?

Male insecurity, likely. Same reason why men have sought to reclaim "manhood" in recent years, whatever the hell that means.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

This entire theory supposes that the only video game market is the American one.

Not really, it has EU examples as well. Also, the marketing in Japan was never so heavily skewed, as you can see by comparing commercials

 

[Bio]

I can't get behind him calling out PS4 and Xbox for not serving the "phone game community"

Like, there's tons of phones/tablets/browsers to play that stuff in. It's an entirely different market that is already being served. I also think that's why it's ok to say something like "Well those aren't the kid of games I'm talking about when I say "gamer" - because it's not. Just like someone who is a Poker player might not be talking about people who play crazy eights and old made when they are referring to "card players"

To be clear I'm not looking down on people who play phone games or browser games or whatnot, more power to'em. I just think it's an entirely different class of consumer, to say "well the majority of gamers are women" might technically be correct (the best kind of correct) but I also think it's ignoring the fact that most people who say this are talking about a much different kind of gamer.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I now want an entire episode about this.

I also think it's ignoring the fact that most people who say this are talking about a much different kind of gamer.

Sorry to say, but when you talk about "gamer" in that sense, it usually means "hardcore gamer", and you're usually throwing in with the type of people that think the Star Trek reboot literally destroys their DVD collection.

 

[dimb]

Not really, it has EU examples as well. Also, the marketing in Japan was never so heavily skewed, as you can see by comparing commercials

The market crash on video games in the cited era was not a worldwide trend, and it didn't have an impact on every branch of the industry. As such this theory does not really account for the lack of female figures in the design space in the Japanese or PC industries.

 

[entremet]

I see the difference in terms of the type of games they are offering. Sony likes to experiment and do different things that honestly transcend gaming. Sony alone is willing to give indies a big push for diverse games while Microsoft continues to have a rocky relationship with them. At a glance I see Sony having more games a female gamer would be more interested in then another Halo, Gears, and Forza.

But let's not forget that MS helped start this whole ndie thing on console with XBLA and giving them tons of promotion.

They just let Sony outclass them.

Sony basically copied MS's playbook last generation. Very embarrassing for MS.

 

[grumble]

I also completely reject the video's argument that "games are games."

No, they're not. Some are immersive experiences to which males seem to gravitate (men more than women fancy themselves heroes and day-savers), and others are electronic parlor games that are more akin to the Pongs and Pacmans that women enjoyed in an earlier era, and enjoy today.

The AAA market CAN grow to include more women, but let's not pretend that the evidence does NOT indicate that men and women seem to like very, very different kinds of games.

They do, even though other media, like comic book movies and male-centric television shows, seem to perform very well with women. Putting yourself in the role of the day-saving hero is a prototypical male fantasy.

I very much disagree in some ways. Yes men and women may have some difference in tastes in average that are fundamental, but it's minor relative to the similarities.

Guys are comfortable with these games because they often grow up with them or interact with a social group that does. This familiarizes them with the complex controls as children and sets their expectations differently than that of women who are discouraged from joining in when young. Men get pushed toward games but women get pushed away. That is why I think men tend to prefer these AAA titles... And even then women are making headway even with games that are actively sexist, like many fighting games, RPGs, shooters, and others. In puzzle games women dominate.

With a moderate tweak in marketing and some more gender neutral content you'd get a series of games and hardware that would appeal to everyone and better quality games.

 

[ByWatterson]

Just to clarify: Are you guys really asserting that Farmville grandma and poker game grandpa are "gamers"? I hardly think the label fits.

There is absolutely a difference between these games and core games, the same difference that exists between Archie Comics and die-hard Marvel/DC/Dark Horse fans.

 

[kavanf1]

I think you underestimate the power of marketing.

LEGO did exactly the same thing, and despite the fact that the exact same product used to have unisex appeal, today it appeals far more to boys simply because they chose to market it that way.

Nintendo's entrance in the market post-crash was formative. Many of their decisions had effects that propagate even through to today. Nintendo started with stocking consoles in the boys section, and then continued to hammer it home with marketing that very clearly catered solely to boys, and competitors followed suit because it worked well. Their marketing continued to be very male-focused for years (just look at the OoT commercial from the video), it wasn't just the decision of the shelf they decided to pick.

I'm not sure Lego is the best example, they have a whole host of stuff geared towards girls (Lego Friends) and my daughter and sons love all different kinds of it. However I appreciate that's just anecdotal, and I think your last point is spot on - I don't doubt any of it.

I guess where I am coming from is that Nintendo won't have simply made an uninformed decision to market gaming to boys. I think what's far more likely is that they did a shitload of market research and the results of it showed that prior to the crash - from Pong to the Ataris 2600 and 7800 and so on - that games were on average played by more males than females. Hence their decision to continue marketing towards the most prevalent market. I believe that's far more likely to have been the case than the supposedly equal opportunities mecca the vid claims existed pre-crash.

That's not really the claim though. Nintendo needed a way to re-introduced gaming consoles to the market that was poisoned by crash and they chose to bet on advertising it as a toy in the heavily gender segregated industry. That's not to say they flipped a coin and had it landed differently, we would have a completely different gaming landscape, they were clearly making a choice based on culture at large. They weren't alone in this either, the NPR article hiryu64 linked also showed how computer science interest among girls and women dropped as when PCs were marketed primarily to a male audience.

As a parent to an 11 year old girl who wants to create video games, this is something very close to my heart. Continuing on from my point above, I still contend that marketing is merely a byproduct - not the main driver - for why gaming in its earliest days was so male-focused. Socially, before home gaming became a big thing, boys going to the arcades was far more common than girls doing likewise. Parents - rightly or wrongly - believed that boys were better able to look after themselves and that girls should be protected from something that they (the parents) didn't really understand, or want to take the time to understand. Arcades were a way of keeping boys out of trouble in those days in the same way that nowadays when we want to keep our kids occupied for an hour, we let them play with their DS or tablet.

Consequently when home consoles came on the scene, you already had a tailor made (largely male) audience who knew about these things and lusted after them. When I was a kid, the idea of arcade games in my own home - my own bedroom! - was the absolute pinnacle of awesomeness...the idea of playing games constantly where I didn't have to keep putting money in to have another go was amazing. My sisters, they liked games, but meh, they could take them or leave them. A pattern that has continued through the rest of our lives.

It might sound like I'm harping on about who came first, chicken or egg, but I think it's an important distinction. Technology (as with most STEM) has historically been male-dominated. People have a tendency to pigeon-hole men when it comes to technology-related activities, and people have an equal but opposite tendency to steer girls away from those avenues. One of the most senior women in the firm I work for was asked what we can do to redress the gender imbalance not just in our organisation, but in technology in general, and her response really stuck with me: go after the children. Girls are shaped from a very young age into certain things being deemed "normal" for them to do and other things (such as video game development) to be a bit "odd" for a girl to be into. Thankfully that balance is tipping over the last generation or so, to the point where the gender imbalance is almost non-existent among players, and - importantly and symbiotically - among the kinds of games being created.

Early games development was - with some notable exceptions - dominated by men. Early games players were predominantly men. It's no surprise therefore that the marketing around the products had a male focus. Was that wrong? In my opinion, no, it was simply a byproduct of its time, and casting aspersions on that comparatively immature era from our position of relative social and technological advancement is not valuable. What it points to is not a regression, but the level of progress that has been made in this industry over the last 30 years.

My little girl will turn 18 in 2022. I hope that one day (perhaps during her video game development degree), she and her friends will look back on this era of gamergate and resolutiongate and console wars and everything that's happening today that collectively chips away at this industry with a general goal to make it better, and think "I'm glad all that happened, because it's made things better for me today".

Then she will invent the new Minecraft, become a billionaire, and I can retire to rock and roll all night and party every day.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Just to clarify: Are you guys really asserting that Farmville grandma and poker game grandpa are "gamers"? I hardly think the label fits.

Yes.

There is absolutely a difference between these games and core games, the same difference that exists between Archie Comics and die-hard Marvel/DC/Dark Horse fans.

What difference? They both are comics.

You are projecting an identity on to a hobby.

 

[Bio]

I now want an entire episode about this.



Sorry to say, but when you talk about "gamer" in that sense, it usually means "hardcore gamer", and you're usually throwing in with the type of people that think the Star Trek reboot literally destroys their DVD collection.

I mean, when I think about the video games I want more of in this world, the Witcher 3's, the Bloodborne's, etc.. Yes, I do value the hardcore gamer desires more than the casual gamer desires. I do want big game makers to focus more on "hardcore gamers" than make another bejewled whatever. Maybe that makes me closed minded? I don't think it's a bad thing for a person to want more of what they like and less focus taken away from that to put on stuff they don't.*shrug*