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[Mediking]

You missed his point completely.

People can bend in real life in ways that look inhuman, a character with a different physique doing it in a game where we has characters like Sim stretching limbs is fine, and a double standard to single Mika out for it.

Besides, not all contortionists are skinny.

What's this lady's name?!?! Tell me her name!!! Please! I
.. I... need it for research!

 

[Palculator]

I always think that pointing towards unrealistic anatomy in a videogame medium completely misses the point of the medium.

You put any of these abstractions up against a photo of a real-life human being and it's complete night and day.

The point of straying from stiff photo-realism to to caricature the design and the movement. As mentioned above, if you made a Spiderman comic with 'average' human flexibility it would be the most visually boring creation ever set to print.

It's ok to say you don't like the proportions to design decisions artists take with a character, but to call it 'unrealistic anatomy' seems like such a hollow excuse to try to find some shaky objective flaw as if it isn't a purposeful tenant of the medium.

Thanks. Especially for the bolded. It's extra misguided in this instance since one pose specifically is being singled out among many other unrealistic poses and elements because it's showing a butt and cleavage.

 

[RooMHM]

So it s an internal decision, not influenced by "external factors". Yes it s because people whined about it. This makes no sense at all.

 

[Ragnorok64]

...The demand that female characters in comics and videogames should be 'realistic' is very misguided. Taken to it's extreme, you'll get blogs like Escher Girls, where untalented dweebs "redraw" the works of professional artists in order to make them "anatomically correct", with often hilarious results. Like this one ... Such anatomy, much correct.

Yeah those examples highlight what bothers me about a lot of the redraws I see on sights like that. I do find the trace overs that show how correct skeletal portions would work, interesting. Unfortunately a ton of thosr redraws end up with poses that are nowhere near as interesting as the original. Also a lot of them just slap an extra 20+lb on the character just cause.

 

[PtM]

powerful and interesting poses.

Yeah no, more like stupid and boring.

 

[UrbanRats]

Yeah no, more like stupid and boring.

Oh please.
I'll accept the stupidity, but boredom has got nothing to do with this.
Neither does the interest in strictly realistic anatomy, neither does how much a pose is or isn't (over)used.

The real problem here is the implications of said pose, and its political underpinnings.
That is the discussion y'all should be having, and whether or not you think it'd be an important one, it'd be at least an honest one.

All this nonsense about bent spines, and people posting photos of contortionists like it has any relevance, it's just sad.

Boob/butt pose is an annoying pose to see (for some people) because it's yet another flag for gender inequality in society through objectification and sexualization, however harmless it may be in and out of itself.
This is really the only angle here worth a damn, and forgive the arrogance.

 

[Henkka]

Yeah no, more like stupid and boring.

Well, according to you. Other people like that sort of thing.

Yeah those examples highlight what bothers me about a lot of the redraws I see on sights like that. I do find the trace overs that show how correct skeletal portions would work, interesting. Unfortunately a ton of thosr redraws end up with poses that are nowhere near as interesting as the original. Also a lot of them just slap an extra 20+lb on the character just cause.

Yeah, it's funny to read the blogger's rationalizations for why the poses aren't as interesting anymore. I also chuckled seeing that the lady with the sword had had her cleavage covered up... Oh, and Chun Li's iconic skirt got turned into pants. Wouldn't want to objectify this imaginary character, that's problematic! Just... the arrogance of someone who's obviously still a novice in drawing to "fix" the work of an artist who's spent years honing their craft is... mindbogglingly annoying.

 

[Bacco]

Probably very unpopular opinion here
I'm not murrican, and in gaming since 16bit gen. That maybe does'nt help

It's not the slap cut itself, i take that as example of approach

But i'm the only that enjoyed the buttslap also as a little FU from SF to the whole overinvasive PC culture of this days?
Aside it being total fitting with the character and kinda harmless, of course

I remember somebody on a forum i was saying on Mika's reveal "lol, Capcom does'nt give fucks!"... and i laughed, because that was truly the feel.

I'm saying this not as opposition to current social trends, but as simple bro fist to a game that does'nt bend to marketing hypocrisy.
Just as lol SF is still old school is like that badass uncle that will never change

Like when Alex was super asshole in win quotes.
That will be fun and cause internet butthurts, but still it will just be the character attitude
But no, probably we will miss that too.
Because you can be a GenocideWannabeWorldConqueror with quotes about destruction, conquest and killings (it's fine, it's teh character), but when an asshole brawler pro wrestler from NY say something not social sensible in 2015, that's a no no, lol.

While MK (lol the wannabe FG "bad guys" back in the 90s) was trying to go as PC as possible on female redesigns (while keeping and improving the torture/splatter porn), SFV just introduced R.MIKA

Was kinda like see the King say that the King does'nt care.
The King is old school because he was the first.
Like MFing Dracula don't start put glitters on his face because some Twilight skinny vampire noob does it.

See them remove the slap was... well, just weak.
Just like eat your words.

Before patronizing me about inclusivity, it's 2015, muh fanservice etc

Chun is DoA level fanservice hot now
Cammy got bodytype redesign to reach minimum Baywatch-approved boobs
Laura is straight out a porn movie dream. Tchau, i'm Laura, your new BJJ istructor *Machete sexy music start here*
R.Mika is still R.Mika, with less skin covered than her SFA3 version

Tbh will like more if they keept the slap, but also if example they keept Cammy's SF4 more unique (less fanservice) body type, imho it fit her better.
Same if Laura was a lil bit more characteristic and unique, even if that mean less sexyness (or more, but less stripper-sexyness)

Is just that, i'm suprised if anybody eat Ono's bait, wich probably was'nt even born in Ono's brain but probably come from that Matt Dahsomething or some other marketing dude

Basically histerical SJW win and lonely fanservice fans win, AT THE SAME TIME. Lol.
Only who lose are the ones that wish marketing stop keep getting importance in games

ps: sorry for my english
pps: if help explain my pov, i'm not politically left or right. But sure as fuck i hate the two extreme of both sides

 

[UrbanRats]

While MK (lol the wannabe FG "bad guys" back in the 90s) was trying to go as PC as possible on female redesigns (while keeping and improving the torture/splatter porn)

I think you're mistaking having not atrocious shitty designs, as trying to have "as PC as possible" ones.
MK has always had horrible female designs, before X.

 

[Mjöölnir]

Extremely reasonable decision to make. Really don't get people getting upset about it.

 

[Kintaro]

In a interview with Director of Brand Marketing and Esports for Capcom, Matt Dahlgren... the changes were made because Street Fighter is a family friendly franchise and to keep a T rating.

Family friendly. <nods>

 

[Bacco]

MK has always had horrible female designs, before X.

Imagine that line with only bold parts and we agree

 

[UrbanRats]

Imagine that line with only bold parts and we agree

Nah.
The overt "sexyness" (never mind that the characters looked like fucking monsters) definitely got in the way of expressing different personalities for different female characters through design, a problem they didn't have with male ones.

 

[A Link to the Past]

As it relates to the discussion of it being a video game, sure, that explains why the characters have unrealistic models. What is the explanation for why the models for women in games are so consistently on one end of the spectrum? Why have we not seen a super buff female Street Fighter character yet, for instance?

 

[Freeman]

Does ND need to worry about Drake about Drake and his buttslap in Uncharted 4?

 

[BBboy20]

Family friendly. <nods>

chunlishower.gif

 

[captainpat]

In a interview with Director of Brand Marketing and Esports for Capcom, Matt Dahlgren... the changes were made because Street Fighter is a family friendly franchise and to keep a T rating.

Family friendly. <nods>

So basically it is was for the T-rating?

 

[V_Arnold]

I could act all faux-outraged over this, but here is the thing:
I KNOW that the only part about Mika's Ultra that was out of context is the buttslap. That is it. It was cool, but it was out of place for the rest of her character.

That slap felt like her fetish or something. Nothing wrong with that. But I can understand how Capcom would just say "eh, lets go ahead of this and just cut that one out".

The slap is still in there, you can hear it happening, and now we who have been in the beta can know that it was back in it sometimes, but imho, it is DEFINITELY worth to keep it out to ensure 16+ rating, which means less sales.

And I would rather SFV retain gameplay and art AND sales, than give Mika a buttslap AND get a higher rating. Simple as that.

(Also, it does not matter how HOT you think Cammy or Chun Li is, because lets admit it, if you go to a sport event where women wear even less, and see them perform, and all you can think about how sexy they are and how you would like to fuck them, then that is just you being ultra horny. Rub it out, shake it off, and respect them even if they have fine body indeed.)

 

[Wallach]

It's ok to say you don't like the proportions to design decisions artists take with a character, but to call it 'unrealistic anatomy' seems like such a hollow excuse to try to find some shaky objective flaw as if it isn't a purposeful tenant of the medium.

I think this kind of misses the point of the criticism, which is simply that the reason such extreme liberties with things like anatomy are taken in the case of female characters is just to get both their tits and their ass into the same image. There isn't any notion that it isn't purposeful - the point is that is purposeful, but the purpose in that specific context is sometimes questionable.

 

[Ragnorok64]

As it relates to the discussion of it being a video game, sure, that explains why the characters have unrealistic models. What is the explanation for why the models for women in games are so consistently on one end of the spectrum? Why have we not seen a super buff female Street Fighter character yet, for instance?

Have you seen Mika's lats?

 

[K.Sabot]

Have you seen Mika's lats?

Hell yeah.

 

[kewlbot]

i never really thought of r. mika's pose as sexual i always thought of it as a way to communicate that she uses a lot of attacks that uses her butt
i can def see how problematic that pose is though now that everyone's talked about it

i wouldnt get too caught up in the anatomy, this is a game that takes a lot of inspiration from anime motifs

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

As it relates to the discussion of it being a video game, sure, that explains why the characters have unrealistic models. What is the explanation for why the models for women in games are so consistently on one end of the spectrum? Why have we not seen a super buff female Street Fighter character yet, for instance?

I think its because a super buff female would be viewed as largely unattractive (compared to one with more traditional sexy proportions), by the straight male demo - who you would have to assume make up the bulk of SFV customers (myself included).
Looks are more important in video games than practicality/realism or appeasing a political minority, because the better a character looks, the more fun the game is to play.

 

[RM8]

While MK (lol the wannabe FG "bad guys" back in the 90s) was trying to go as PC as possible on female redesigns (while keeping and improving the torture/splatter porn)

Yeah, man, Mortal Kombat going for a more realistic look and increasing the gore over the previous game is like, completely new for the series! Darn you, histerical SJWs. I miss the 90s when female characters in Mortal Kombat had massive breasts and butts!

Look at how much smaller her breasts are now, and how little skin she reveals

I hope you're happy now, feminists!

 

[Kintaro]

I could act all faux-outraged over this, but here is the thing:
I KNOW that the only part about Mika's Ultra that was out of context is the buttslap. That is it. It was cool, but it was out of place for the rest of her character.

I'm sorry but out of context? One of her specials is the a hip press where she hits you with her ass. That Ciritical Art is both her and her partner hitting you WITH THEIR ASSES.

Her slapping her ass before both her and her partner hit you with their asses before landing the double muscle buster is a call out. Happens in wrestling all the time. Wrestlers call out their finishers so the audience can anticipate it.

Out of context... I...what? This is bait right?

 

[The Orz]

I could act all faux-outraged over this, but here is the thing:
I KNOW that the only part about Mika's Ultra that was out of context is the buttslap. That is it. It was cool, but it was out of place for the rest of her character.

I would guess that a portion of the outrage comes from the belief that the slap wasn't out of character. Keeping in mind that until now we've only had R.Mika as a playable character in exactly one game (not counting SFZ3 revisions) and how all SF characters are fairly shallow to begin with (it is a fighting game, after all), her derriere is a pretty defining feature--one might even call is a character trait. She attacks with it (Flying Peach, Shooting Peach) and even had an animation where she rubbed it when she lands (which has been carried over into SFV).

Slapping her rear before smashing her opponents head between a pair of cheeks doesn't seem out of character for a wrestler who attacks with her butt. Like, at all.

Plus you're omitting the other change in her critical art: the split at the end. This, to me, gave the move much more impact and just added to how ridiculously over the top the critical art was.

 

[Ragnorok64]

...Yeah, it's funny to read the blogger's rationalizations for why the poses aren't as interesting anymore. I also chuckled seeing that the lady with the sword had had her cleavage covered up... Oh, and Chun Li's iconic skirt got turned into pants. Wouldn't want to objectify this imaginary character, that's problematic! Just... the arrogance of someone who's obviously still a novice in drawing to "fix" the work of an artist who's spent years honing their craft is... mindbogglingly annoying.

Some redraws aren't that bad

The original basically gave Wonder Woman the kind of body Supergirl would have and an abnormally long knee among other things. The redraw does look better but they decided to slap on more weight onto her for the heck of it. Also both drawings fail to give her leg muscle definition which, as a character that should be built like a Greek goddess, should be there.

Then you get redraws like this that straight up lose the tension and spirit of the original.

The original, despite its issues had an air or playfulness while the character was dodging bullets. That redraw has nothing aside from better anatomy.

And that Chun-li redraw example is so bad it's actually kind of infuriating. I'd post it too but trying to post the 4 pics I did on mobile out in the country with bad signal has taken me forever already.

 

[HGH]

In a interview with Director of Brand Marketing and Esports for Capcom, Matt Dahlgren... the changes were made because Street Fighter is a family friendly franchise and to keep a T rating.

Family friendly. <nods>

Here's the full quote:

...we are a Teen rated franchise, and we want to make sure we keep that appeal to a very wide audience. We thought maybe in those instances things could’ve been pushed just a little bit too far so we had to tone it down slightly. We want to make sure that Street Fighter remains a family friendly franchise and it’s that delicate balance that we play ensuring that we remain a teen game.

Ah yes, "family friendly" fighting game Street Fighter where random strangers beat the crap out of each other in the most ridiculous ways possible.

So basically it is was for the T-rating?

That's what they say but it's the most ridiculous claim in the world and probably just PR. There are dozens of games under the sun with T ratings containing far, far more content than something like Mika's animations, even fellow fighting games like Guilty Gear or DoA are T-rated. The ESRB are lenient when it comes to this.

 

[bishoptl]

derp

anyone playing "Both Sides Bingo"? We've got a winner

 

[RM8]

The change was done around the time the game got rated, though. Maybe it's a combination of elements what pushes a game into M territory, and Capcom didn't want to alter the character designs, since changing camera angles is much easier. In the end I think the spank was pretty harmless, but ESRB can be weird like that.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

anyone playing "Both Sides Bingo"? We've got a winner

My bingo card is filled up, fam. "sjw" "disney exaggeration tho" "*insert medium* is worse" "muh anime girls ;_;" "censorship is bad m'kay" "how about these NSFW pictures of women for the road"

 

[Kintaro]

The change was done around the time the game got rated, though. Maybe it's a combination of elements what pushes a game into M territory, and Capcom didn't want to alter the character designs, since changing camera angles is much easier. In the end I think the spank was pretty harmless, but ESRB can be weird like that.

There is no way in hell Mika's buttslap and Cammy's squat kept this from T. Numerous recent examples would point against this being true.

Doesn't matter either way now, but they could at least stop trying to bullshit people.

 

[Pompadour]

There is no way in hell Mika's buttslap and Cammy's squat kept this from T. Numerous recent examples would point against this being true.

Doesn't matter either way now, but they could at least stop trying to bullshit people.

Do you work for the ESRB?

 

[RM8]

There is no way in hell Mika's buttslap and Cammy's squat kept this from T. Numerous recent examples would point against this being true.

Doesn't matter either way now, but they could at least stop trying to bullshit people.

I mean, that's what I said. If they had to tone down -something-, camera angles are an easy fix. I don't think it's that farfetched, really. And again, people were complaining about the costumes, not about the camera angles.

Lol, the meltdowns would have been glorious if they had edited Mika's costume.

 

[UrbanRats]

Some redraws aren't that bad

The original basically gave Wonder Woman the kind of body Supergirl would have and an abnormally long knee among other things. The redraw does look better but they decided to slap on more weight onto her for the heck of it. Also both drawings fail to give her leg muscle definition which, as a character that should be built like a Greek goddess, should be there.

Maybe if the only thing that interests you in a drawing is how accurate (lol) the anatomy is.
The second drawing is so stiff it's painful, it's meant to inspire freedom and dynamism, and it feels like a piece of wood.
the use of negative space is much better in the original, and the feet and legs use curves to give a sense of agility, too.

Again, drawn cartoons are not meant to emulate real life 1:1, that's why they can make work things that in live action look rather stupid (and viceversa).

As for Wonder Woman's body type, i'm not into superhero comic books, but i know WW is supposed to be a muscular woman, yet you can have that while maintaining the aspects that make the first pose good, compared to the second.

This is also a trend in the various "redraws" i glanced over in that blog.
Curves and lines aren't just meant to be sexy, they are crucial in bringing a dynamic pose to life, and giving it energy.
Most of these examples absolutely kills that.

So if you really want to go and "fix" someone else's work, you should at least get those basics down.
And yes, you can have beautiful, dynamic lines without having to do sexy poses, unfortunately, this is not the case here.

EDIT: Also, i'm commenting on these just because they're being brought up as an argument here, i don't like the idea of going and shitting on someone's blog, when they aren't even participating in the discussion, seems unfair.
Especially since these artworks weren't created with the this specific topic in mind.

 

[captainpat]

There is no way in hell Mika's buttslap and Cammy's squat kept this from T. Numerous recent examples would point against this being true.

Doesn't matter either way now, but they could at least stop trying to bullshit people.

Probably not, espeically if a game like Dragon's Crown can get a T-rating.

However, somebody at Capcom probably didn't want to take any chances so they removed it.

This whole situations reminds me of that Joker Fatality in MK vs DC.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Have you seen Mika's lats?

 

[Sou Da]

So what's left to discuss here?

 

[RM8]

Street Fighter V has comparatively a much more realistic look than Dragon Crown, though. Same with Senran Kagura, they can get T ratings because the game is completely cartoon-ish.

 

[captainpat]

So what's left to discuss here?

Well, you can complaining about it and have people complain about your complaining.

 

[V_Arnold]

I'm sorry but out of context? One of her specials is the a hip press where she hits you with her ass. That Ciritical Art is both her and her partner hitting you WITH THEIR ASSES.

Her slapping her ass before both her and her partner hit you with their asses before landing the double muscle buster is a call out. Happens in wrestling all the time. Wrestlers call out their finishers so the audience can anticipate it.

Out of context... I...what? This is bait right?

Bait for what exactly? I think I explained myself below that paragraph you quoted. Yeah, her ass is used as a weapon in the rest of the move, in a comical fashion, but the SLAP specifically was something more of a kinky extra, imho - and since that is the thing being removed, either Capcom or PEGI has the same thoughts about that.

 

[The Orz]

Bait for what exactly? I think I explained myself below that paragraph you quoted. Yeah, her ass is used as a weapon in the rest of the move, in a comical fashion, but the SLAP specifically was something more of a kinky extra, imho - and since that is the thing being removed, either Capcom or PEGI has the same thoughts about that.

Gratuitous, maybe, but(t) kinky? That's definitely just your perspective. Sometimes a butt slap is just a butt slap.

 

[V_Arnold]

Gratuitous, maybe, but(t) kinky? That's definitely just your perspective. Sometimes a butt slap is just a butt slap.

If it were just my perspective, Capcom would not have removed it. I am just saying that that particular move was the *only* thing that was odd when compared to the rest of the content (including outfits).

Again: I have no problem with anyone who might disagree with me, I am just saying it is odd to me to see people argue "why not the outfits if this is too risque?" - well, because outfits are just outfits, nothing implied.

 

[Inuhanyou]

In a interview with Director of Brand Marketing and Esports for Capcom, Matt Dahlgren... the changes were made because Street Fighter is a family friendly franchise and to keep a T rating.

Family friendly. <nods>

All of my wats. All of them.

 

[BronsonLee]

So what's left to discuss here?

Apparently a whole goddamn lot

At this rate y'all could've made your own fighting game with more ass in it than SFV

 

[meltingparappa]

Gratuitous, maybe, but(t) kinky? That's definitely just your perspective. Sometimes a butt slap is just a butt slap.

You're right, and I think it's a good point to mention that a butt slap in terms of Japanese body language is meant to be playfully antagonistic. You know, like what a wrestler would do in a taunt.

Consider Marle's 'provoke' tech from Chrono Trigger.

As opposed to whatever sexual gaps someone's imagination fills it in without that context in mind.

 

[Trickster]

Extremely reasonable decision to make. Really don't get people getting upset about it.

Call me crazy, but I think singling out a buttslap and one other, even smaller thing, in a game with tons booty, boobs and violence on display, is weird and sorta ridiculous.

Keep in mind that the buttslap is so quick that people were litterally slowing down gifs of it to see if it even was a buttslap when her trailer was released.

In general I'm also just tired of the fact that the focus in this type of stuff is pretty much always about how women shouldn't show so much skin, or act so darn sexy, rather than focus on having men flaunt their stuff more.

 

[Ragnorok64]

Maybe if the only thing that interests you in a drawing is how accurate (lol) the anatomy is.
The second drawing is so stiff it's painful, it's meant to inspire freedom and dynamism, and it feels like a piece of wood.
the use of negative space is much better in the original, and the feet and legs use curves to give a sense of agility, too.

Again, drawn cartoons are not meant to emulate real life 1:1, that's why they can make work things that in live action look rather stupid (and viceversa).

As for Wonder Woman's body type, i'm not into superhero comic books, but i know WW is supposed to be a muscular woman, yet you can have that while maintaining the aspects that make the first pose good, compared to the second.

This is also a trend in the various "redraws" i glanced over in that blog.
Curves and lines aren't just meant to be sexy, they are crucial in bringing a dynamic pose to life, and giving it energy.
Most of these examples absolutely kills that.

So if you really want to go and "fix" someone else's work, you should at least get those basics down.
And yes, you can have beautiful, dynamic lines without having to do sexy poses, unfortunately, this is not the case here.

EDIT: Also, i'm commenting on these just because they're being brought up as an argument here, i don't like the idea of going and shitting on someone's blog, when they aren't even participating in the discussion, seems unfair.
Especially since these artworks weren't created with the this specific topic in mind.

True, I couldn't really go into long detail when I was posting before. While the first one has whack anatomy it conveys a sense of acrobatics to the flight that is missing in the redraw. The redraw is just a boring standard flying pose.

With regards throwing shade on someone's blog without thier participation, the entire point of that tumbler is to grab professional's artwork and blast them for thier anatomy. From what i can tell, the original artist isn't brought into the discussion. Redraws people post there are fair game.

 

[Ragnorok64]

You're right, and I think it's a good point to mention that a butt slap in terms of Japanese body language is meant to be playfully antagonistic. You know, like what a wrestler would do in a taunt.

Consider Marle's 'provoke' tech from Chrono Trigger.

As opposed to whatever sexual gaps someone's imagination fills it in without that context in mind.

Angela Seiken Densetsu 3. There's like no way that sprite would have been able to make it into a Western release untouched back in the 90s or probably nowadays for that matter.

 

[The Orz]

Is it wrong that I want to see this thread turn into "Butt Slaps in Video Games?"